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ubergeek63
2011-07-05, 08:55 PM
would some of you critique this for me? http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Cantrip_Master_%283.5e_Class%29

I was intrigued by the Cantripologist on the same site but found it ridiculously underpowered since as written it only could do half the damage of a normal caster and had very little to make up for the lack (cure minor wounds as written would only do a total of 6HP from a 3rd "level" spell)

From a description of the tiers i found on http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0 it might be tier 1 for flexibility but it does not have the firepower. It is also a bit of a trick trying to balance all the powers against the other classes.

I seem to have settled on low level arcane magic being slightly overpowered in the interests of flavor and keeping the other stuff in line at higher levels. There is the same old thing of being able to take the place of the others but not really being their equal while being able to tweak magic in ways they can not is great for flavor.

Dan

Prime32
2011-07-06, 09:04 AM
It's rather difficult to read. You don't explain what actions they take to cast the cantrips, etc.

No way is it Tier 1. A Tier 1 is someone whose abilities shape the course of the campaign, and who can solve any problem with a single spell. A long and arduous sea voyage? Nope, I teleport there. Need to convince the king of something? Mind control him. Attacked by an army? Summon a hurricane. Etc.

Changing the colour of something 36 times in a round is not useful at any level. If you spam damage spells, not only is 36d3 not a lot of damage, but energy resistance 5 will negate it completely.

1080 cantrips per day is ridiculous, especially when Pathfinder just makes all cantrips at-will.

Eurus
2011-07-06, 09:46 AM
To be brutally honest, it's terribly formatted to the point of being nearly incomprehensible. You don't explain what Cantrip Mastery actually does in the class feature description, but rather in the "abilities" entry before the class table for some reason. I have no clue what Arcane Thesis is actually supposed to do for the class since it's intended to reduce the amount that metamagic feats adjust the spell's slot by yet you mention using it with Cantrip Widen and Cantrip Extend which don't modify the spell's slot at all. And you list "effective spell level" but don't actually explain what that's supposed to alter -- does it simply adjust the DC of your cantrips as if with Heighten Spell and boost the power of your reserve feats, or does it have other effects?

Versatility, it does not have. When you think about it, it really has very few options. It can spray a little bit of lightning or acid or cold damage around, or do a few little things like 5-pound telekinesis or slow healing with Cure Minor Wounds, but doesn't really have more than maybe 1% of the game's interesting spells. He can't fly or teleport, he has zero defenses or buffs...

Dryad
2011-07-06, 09:56 AM
Author's note on balance: Arcane magic is a little overpowered at low levels, but I have yet to find a combination that is not ridiculously underpowered at high levels or that has divine magic ridiculously overpowered.

Wait a minute...
Huh?
Wait; what?

I think the Author is a bit hazy in magic.. I mean: At low levels, arcane magic is ridiculously UNDERPOWERED due to the fact that an arcanist can't keep her casting up. Sure; individual spells can be extremely powerful, but the arcanist has low potential due to only being able to cast a few spells each day.
At high levels, Arcane Magic becomes ridiculously powerful; overpowered, in fact.
I'm leaving the Divine Magic out of the debate, since Divine casters have more potential at low levels due to the fact that they're not as useless when they're out of spells due to combat ability, but at high levels, I'd say Arcane magic has a little bit more potential than divine.

The Cantrip Master runs into a few problems, not least of all is the following: No progression. You don't get new things as a cantrip master; not ever. Sure; you get the ability to cast arcane spells while wearing heavy armour (what? Why? How come? What's the reason?) and you get some class feature improvements, but you never, ever, get anything new.
The amount of cantrips you can cast per 6 second sequence (ehm... Yeah. Really; 36 cantrips per six seconds. That's six cantrips per second. That's 1 cantrip per 0.16666666666666667 seconds... No offense, but.. Huh?) as well as the ability to cast 1080 cantrips per day make this class one hell of a class to keep track of. Seriously; that's just not fun anymore.

Then there's indeed power. A monster with resist: 5 can disable the Cantrip Master nearly completely, lots of cantrips don't stack (buff/debuff), and casting them several times per round on a single target won't help (but keeping them up constantly on an entire party will. However, after fourth character level, it's simply not good enough to be little more than a walking aura).

Now; this post probably comes across as véry negative, and in some ways, it is exactly that: Very negative.
However, I must also applaud you on attempting to make a class out of something as hopelessly futile as cantrips. Even though I can't honestly think of a way to do it (and keep it competitive, or even useful), it is very commendable that you tried.
If you do seriously wish to continue, I'd at least think of a way to get rid of casting 36 individual spells, and get rid of the daily limit for cantrips entirely.

One thing I would propose is allow a Cantrip Master to combine cantrip effects into a single spell. For instance, instead of casting 36 separate orb spells, at lvl 20, you could cast a single orb spell that deals 36d3 damage. Or you could opt for a single spell that would deal 18d3 damage, plus an additional 18d6 damage against undead. Or you could cast a healing spell that heals for 36 hit points. Or you could cast a single spell that deals 30d3 damage, and grants up to six of your allies a +1 bonus on their next to hit roll or skill check. Something like that. Combine cantrip effects into a single spell.
After that, you could also look into feats that increase the damage die of cantrip spells by one size category. 1d4 already looks a whole lot better than 1d3. Tiny things like that.

ubergeek63
2011-07-06, 10:00 AM
It's rather difficult to read. You don't explain what actions they take to cast the cantrips, etc.

No way is it Tier 1. A Tier 1 is someone whose abilities shape the course of the campaign, and who can solve any problem with a single spell. A long and arduous sea voyage? Nope, I teleport there. Need to convince the king of something? Mind control him. Attacked by an army? Summon a hurricane. Etc.

Changing the colour of something 36 times in a round is not useful at any level. If you spam damage spells, not only is 36d3 not a lot of damage, but energy resistance 5 will negate it completely.

1080 cantrips per day is ridiculous, especially when Pathfinder just makes all cantrips at-will.

Well I personally do not understand how energy resistance 5 negates 36D3, that is like saying energy resistance 6 makes a wizard useless since most of his damage is in D6s.

I am not familiar with pathfinder though I have seen the name here ... Ah that's why: 3rd party publisher.

The attack cantrips are similar to acid splash, accept that to cover other energies they are based on the orbs spells and require the individual to extract them from scrolls to obtain them.

Frankly that was one of the problems with Cantripologist: you can not cast multiple different cantrips at once since they would have different verbal and somatic components.

I am counting it as a single spell of the lvl determined by the quantity of energy used in the round...

As for tier, that is the weird part. I would say it is less raw power than a tier 2 but more flexibility, ignoring the lack of fancy stuff like wish summon and such, than tier 1. A FB from a lvl6 can be approximated and so can a mass CLW (a 5 CMW burst approximates mass CLW )

thanks for taking a look,

Dan

ubergeek63
2011-07-06, 10:04 AM
Wait a minute...
Huh?
Wait; what?

I think the Author is a bit hazy in magic.. I mean: At low levels, arcane magic is ridiculously UNDERPOWERED due to the fact that an arcanist can't keep her casting up. Sure; individual spells can be extremely powerful, but the arcanist has low potential due to only being able to cast a few spells each day.


I was actually comparing directly to wizard/sorcerer with that statement and fully intend it to be as a single spell :smallsmile:

ubergeek63
2011-07-06, 10:22 AM
To be brutally honest, it's terribly formatted to the point of being nearly incomprehensible. You don't explain what Cantrip Mastery actually does in the class feature description, but rather in the "abilities" entry before the class table for some reason. I have no clue what Arcane Thesis is actually supposed to do for the class since it's intended to reduce the amount that metamagic feats adjust the spell's slot by yet you mention using it with Cantrip Widen and Cantrip Extend which don't modify the spell's slot at all. And you list "effective spell level" but don't actually explain what that's supposed to alter -- does it simply adjust the DC of your cantrips as if with Heighten Spell and boost the power of your reserve feats, or does it have other effects?

Versatility, it does not have. When you think about it, it really has very few options. It can spray a little bit of lightning or acid or cold damage around, or do a few little things like 5-pound telekinesis or slow healing with Cure Minor Wounds, but doesn't really have more than maybe 1% of the game's interesting spells. He can't fly or teleport, he has zero defenses or buffs...

Formatting is kinda a problem as I have been hacking things in as i think of them...

It does have some buffs like the resist cantrip, and a lot of effects that can be extracted from other spells... as to the "interesting spells", that is why I included the free reserve feats.

As to the Arcane thesis, think in terms of a wand and the Metamagic trigger feat. Widen Cantrip and Extend Cantrip are allow the flexibility to make an an instantaneous touch spell into a permanent per round burst effect, but that becomes a sixth level spell with an XP cost for a single cantrip effect. At 3rd level it would be a HP burst a round for an hour. Arcane thesis allows a couple favorite spells to reach something resembling normal arcanist power: a 3rd lvl spell would be a 6d3 burst without Arcane Thesis.

ubergeek63
2011-07-06, 10:23 AM
oh and relative spell lvl is to qualify for feats and PRCs

ubergeek63
2011-07-06, 10:25 AM
1080 cantrips per day is ridiculous, especially when Pathfinder just makes all cantrips at-will.

At will? you mean one per round I would assume...

Dryad
2011-07-06, 10:27 AM
Well I personally do not understand how energy resistance 5 negates 36D3, that is like saying energy resistance 6 makes a wizard useless since most of his damage is in D6s.
The way you prosed it is as follows:
At lvl 20 (for instance) a cantrip master can cast 36 cantrips in a single round. Not one spell with 36 cantrip effects in it, but 36 individual cantrips. Since a single acid orb deals 1d3 damage, you cast 36 separate spells, each dealing 1d3 damage. Even a creature with resist acid: 3 would be immune to that, because each individual spell can never deal more than 3 damage.


At will?
At will means that they can cast as many as they want in a given day. A spell with a casting time of five hours could be at-will, meaning that the caster doesn't have a limit on uses per day. However, since the spell would take 5 hours to cast, she couldn't cast more than four in a day. Still, if the day were to last 100 hours, she could cast 25 of them in that single day.
At will does not negate casting time. That would be Free Action or No Action.

Qwertystop
2011-07-06, 10:36 AM
Well I personally do not understand how energy resistance 5 negates 36D3, that is like saying energy resistance 6 makes a wizard useless since most of his damage is in D6s.

It would negate it because it is not actually 36d3, it is 36 individual attacks of 1d3 each, each of which is reduced to zero by resistance of 3 or more.

ubergeek63
2011-07-06, 10:42 AM
The way you prosed it is as follows:
At lvl 20 (for instance) a cantrip master can cast 36 cantrips in a single round. Not one spell with 36 cantrip effects in it, but 36 individual cantrips. Since a single acid orb deals 1d3 damage, you cast 36 separate spells, each dealing 1d3 damage. Even a creature with resist acid: 3 would be immune to that, because each individual spell can never deal more than 3 damage.

it is indeed a poorly worded then... The intention is that the spell level of the casting is related to the amount of cantrip uses expended with the maxes being related to the sorcerer spell levels times 4...

Call them spell points perhaps? 1 point for a base cantrip, 1 point for per widen step, and 4 points per extend step. The spell level of the casting is points used divided by four. Arcane Thesis saves one point per metamagic and no matter how many levels widen and extend only count as a single metamagic.

ubergeek63
2011-07-06, 11:15 AM
Versatility, it does not have. When you think about it, it really has very few options. It can spray a little bit of lightning or acid or cold damage around, or do a few little things like 5-pound telekinesis or slow healing with Cure Minor Wounds, but doesn't really have more than maybe 1% of the game's interesting spells. He can't fly or teleport, he has zero defenses or buffs...

buffs? at the end of the day if he has 300 out of his 1080 cantrips (spell points?) left he can divvy up 37 (if he took it Thesis for it) resistance (cleric cantrip) points that last 24hrs. that seems to me to be a pretty potent buff to me!

PersonMan
2011-07-06, 11:20 AM
buffs? at the end of the day if he has 300 out of his 1080 cantrips (spell points?) left he can divvy up 37 resistance (cleric cantrip) points that last 24hrs. that seems to me to be a pretty potent buff to me!

Resistance provides a resistance bonus, which doesn't stack with itself or the most common save-boosting item I know(cloak of resistance).

ubergeek63
2011-07-06, 11:26 AM
Resistance provides a resistance bonus, which doesn't stack with itself or the most common save-boosting item I know(cloak of resistance).

each casting is a single spell of the chosen potency. it is not stacking it is a single "spell" of resistance x, but you are correct in that it probably would not stack with a cloak...

seems it would max at +3 per person though :(

ubergeek63
2011-07-06, 12:07 PM
Versatility, it does not have. When you think about it, it really has very few options. It can spray a little bit of lightning or acid or cold damage around, or do a few little things like 5-pound telekinesis or slow healing with Cure Minor Wounds, but doesn't really have more than maybe 1% of the game's interesting spells. He can't fly or teleport, he has zero defenses or buffs...

Or are you saying he should be able to blow away the regular caster with the simple effects because he never gets the fancy ones?

Yitzi
2011-07-06, 12:27 PM
Most cantrips tend not to be the sort of thing you'd want to use that many times in a round...the one real exception I can see that could lead to some fun stuff is Create Water. 36 castings at caster level 28 (from arcane thesis) gives 252 cubic feet (roughly 7 and a half tons) of water. It's not as much as you can produce from Control Water at the same level, but you don't need a water source and it's far more controllable.

Or alternatively, multiclass with rogue (or some other sneak attack class) and acquire Improved Invisibility and let off a whole bunch of sneak attack rays per round for a nasty damager. You'd want to either go cantrip master 5/rogue 3/arcane trickster (which, assuming two more rogue levels or 1 rogue and 1 cantrip master at the end, gives you, at level 20, roughly 784 sneak attack damage multiplied by your hit chance vs. flatfooted touch per round, distributed more or less as you wish among enemies within 30 feet) or else take 10 levels in actual rogue for crippling strike, which (assuming 6 cantrip master, 4 trickster) gives you only 490 damage per round (modified for hit chance), but also 40 strength damage (again, modified for hit chance.)

ubergeek63
2011-07-06, 01:04 PM
Most cantrips tend not to be the sort of thing you'd want to use that many times in a round...the one real exception I can see that could lead to some fun stuff is Create Water. 36 castings at caster level 28 (from arcane thesis) gives 252 cubic feet (roughly 7 and a half tons) of water. It's not as much as you can produce from Control Water at the same level, but you don't need a water source and it's far more controllable.

most typical cantrips perhaps ...

CMW is useful as the base of the cure familly ...

pick an orb spell - they are all useful ...

disrupt undead ...

the basis of "wall of stone" would be a very flexible 75% cover that could be tossed up in a round ...

rock to mud followed by mud to rock and available at low levels ...

one of the effects of tiny hut is effectively a one way mirror that provides 100% cover...

ubergeek63
2011-07-06, 01:08 PM
Or alternatively, multiclass with rogue (or some other sneak attack class) and acquire Improved Invisibility and let off a whole bunch of sneak attack rays per round for a nasty damager. You'd want to either go cantrip master 5/rogue 3/arcane trickster (which, assuming two more rogue levels or 1 rogue and 1 cantrip master at the end, gives you, at level 20, roughly 784 sneak attack damage multiplied by your hit chance vs. flatfooted touch per round, distributed more or less as you wish among enemies within 30 feet) or else take 10 levels in actual rogue for crippling strike, which (assuming 6 cantrip master, 4 trickster) gives you only 490 damage per round (modified for hit chance), but also 40 strength damage (again, modified for hit chance.)

that is the sort of thinking that had occurred to me... on the divine side of things is the singer of concordance: at lvl 6 they get +1d8 on every healing effect

Prime32
2011-07-06, 03:52 PM
As for tier, that is the weird part. I would say it is less raw power than a tier 2 but more flexibility, ignoring the lack of fancy stuff like wish summon and such, than tier 1.It doesn't. This is about tier 5. A wizard can know every cantrip in the game, as well as every spell on his list of the other 9 levels. An archivist can know every spell, period. A spell-to-power erudite can know every spell and psionic power. An artificer can create any spell on demand, and let his allies use them. This class has the abilities of a level 1 wizard throughout its entire career, which quickly cease to be relevant. Its damage-dealing abilities are too low to be useful, its buffs do not stack with the superior buffs created by items and members of other classes, and most cantrips have no benefit from being cast multiple times.

Flexibility does not mean you can do a lot of stuff. It means you can solve a lot of problems. Having the powers "turn anything red", "turn anything blue" and "turn anything yellow" does not make you three times stronger than the guy with mind control. Note that the monk's class table is crammed with features but it's ranked near the bottom because most of them suck (its ultimate Slow Fall is weaker than a feather fall spell or ring).

ubergeek63
2011-07-06, 04:17 PM
An artificer can create any spell on demand, and let his allies use them.

making dinner right now but i can say right off the cuff you are wrong here. The artificer errata eliminated this bit of cheese. No one can use anything of the artificer's with out a UMD check. I read somewhere that they clarified this specifically so other classes could not just use his stuff, and explicitly to prevent an artificer from creating scrolls that wizards could then copy to their spell books.

Yitzi
2011-07-06, 05:02 PM
It doesn't. This is about tier 5. A wizard can know every cantrip in the game, as well as every spell on his list of the other 9 levels. An archivist can know every spell, period. A spell-to-power erudite can know every spell and psionic power. An artificer can create any spell on demand, and let his allies use them. This class has the abilities of a level 1 wizard throughout its entire career, which quickly cease to be relevant. Its damage-dealing abilities are too low to be useful, its buffs do not stack with the superior buffs created by items and members of other classes, and most cantrips have no benefit from being cast multiple times.

As a pure build, it's about tier 5. Mixed with something that gives a constant boost to those cantrips, it's probably more like tier 2.


Note that the monk's class table is crammed with features but it's ranked near the bottom because most of them suck (its ultimate Slow Fall is weaker than a feather fall spell or ring).

A monk's real ultimate isn't Slow Fall, it's Perfect Self. Not that that's so incredible either...

Prime32
2011-07-06, 05:31 PM
A monk's real ultimate isn't Slow Fall, it's Perfect Self. Not that that's so incredible either...I meant "the ultimate version of its Slow Fall", not "its ultimate, Slow Fall".

Yitzi
2011-07-06, 06:31 PM
I meant "the ultimate version of its Slow Fall", not "its ultimate, Slow Fall".

Well yeah, the monk's slow fall is inferior to Feather Fall (unless you're falling from the top of a building over 1200 feet high).

ubergeek63
2011-07-06, 06:47 PM
As a pure build, it's about tier 5. Mixed with something that gives a constant boost to those cantrips, it's probably more like tier 2.

what kind of boost?

That it what i was trying to do with the extend and widen. widen only costs a single and extend 4.

I was comparing the power level with that of the sorcerer when I was figuring out the damages and based it all on that. At 6th lvl with the Arcane Thesis he does 12D3 which is about the same as the 6D6 of the sorcerer.

If he were to get that with out the Thesis he would get a 4d3 burst (about 2d6) at 1st level when the cap is 5 dice and not allowed to effect multiple opponents (see DMG pg 36).

I could put a free metamagic there and just say that at 5th or 6th level he gets arcane thesis for free on ALL cantrips. Then d3 base cantrip damage becomes a 20' burst for approximately d6/lvl (4d3/spell level) as a rule while still keeping the 1st lvl damage in range, but the cure minor wounds becomes a 2HP burst at 1st lvl when the average party member's HP total is 5HP.

A side benefit is being able to add a little magic punch. While the spell thief is ideal second class, as a secondary class you do not need to worry about the charisma or the wisdom numbers.

As a primary class you sacrifice a bit of high end power and the fancy spells. Most spells are simple effects scaled up to what some wizard arbitrarily decided was worth spending the effort and gold to make a permanent entry in his book.

What wizard would deem it worthy of a page, or what sorcerer would waste his precious spell memory on conjuring a 3.5 foot square 1 inch thick sheet of rock? All it can realistically do is to seal off a secret cavity in a stone wall to stash valuables, but in the hands of even a 1st lvl Cantrip Master it becomes a five foot high ten foot long barrier to hide behind and at tenth level it is a wall of stone.

Epsilon Rose
2011-07-06, 07:12 PM
Question, what is the goal of this class? What niche should it fill, what service would it provide, why would someone play this over any other caster?

Also, important note, the abilities section on a class writeup is meant to dress how the class interacts with the ability scores (e.g. charisma is the most important stat for a Cantrip master because they use it for casting their cantrips) not how its signature ability is meant to function.

ubergeek63
2011-07-06, 07:40 PM
Question, what is the goal of this class? What niche should it fill, what service would it provide, why would someone play this over any other caster?

Also, important note, the abilities section on a class writeup is meant to dress how the class interacts with the ability scores (e.g. charisma is the most important stat for a Cantrip master because they use it for casting their cantrips) not how its signature ability is meant to function.

i know.. some of the "put this information here" stuff was a little confusing and i was just popping in and adding it in shorts bursts as i thought of it.

as to why it would be played... it has a bit of blaster and a bit of healer and while charisma might be the primary stat it does not need to be high for the character to be effective so it multiclasses a bit easier.

of course there can't be any complicated spells that have no numeric quantity to be scaled down since that is the basic concept: the building blocks, the child's toys of the other casting classes, shunned and even forgotten by everyone else, all being used by the idiot savants of the casting classes to produce effects that the other can only wish for (pun intended)

as to the goal... frankly i liked the concept I saw in cantripologist, but it did not make any sense. it allowed any combination of cantrips to be cast at once, even though they would all have different verbal and somatic components and there was no power boost other than to say 2 cantrips per spell level which meant that he would only be doing 2d3 per spell level - ever! so you would have a lvl 20 cantripologist doing 18d3 of damage when a wizard would be doing 20d6.

Yitzi
2011-07-06, 08:00 PM
what kind of boost?

Numerical. Such as sneak attack or singer of concordance.


I was comparing the power level with that of the sorcerer when I was figuring out the damages and based it all on that. At 6th lvl with the Arcane Thesis he does 12D3 which is about the same as the 6D6 of the sorcerer.

A bit more. But that only helps with blasting single targets, and that tends to be a caster's weakest point. (Unless I misunderstand how Arcane Thesis works.)

Of course, with multiclassing, the Cantrip Master is incredibly broken.

ubergeek63
2011-07-06, 08:24 PM
Numerical. Such as sneak attack or singer of concordance.



A bit more. But that only helps with blasting single targets, and that tends to be a caster's weakest point. (Unless I misunderstand how Arcane Thesis works.)

Of course, with multiclassing, the Cantrip Master is incredibly broken.

Arcane Thesis reduces the metamagic cost by one spell level, or in this case by one cantrip use as well as increasing it's spell penetration by 2.

Blasting single targets is where widen cantrip metamagic comes in. any cantrip can be widened from touch to ranged touch to 20 foot burst to 40 foot burst etc. The normal widen spell feat only doubles the area of effect and does not do anything for touch attacks.

How is it broken aside for everything being considered separate attacks? If it was all considered a single spell that eliminates that bit of cheese and makes the case for the spell level for spell resistance purposes to be based on the amount of power used in the individual casting.

Dryad
2011-07-06, 08:29 PM
it is indeed a poorly worded then... The intention is that the spell level of the casting is related to the amount of cantrip uses expended with the maxes being related to the sorcerer spell levels times 4...

Call them spell points perhaps? 1 point for a base cantrip, 1 point for per widen step, and 4 points per extend step. The spell level of the casting is points used divided by four. Arcane Thesis saves one point per metamagic and no matter how many levels widen and extend only count as a single metamagic.
That really doesn't solve the problem The intention is that the spell level of the casting is related to the amount of cantrip uses expended... Doesn't combine the cantrips into a single spell. It doesn't matter how high spell level a minor acid orb is; it still deals only a single d3 damage, even if it is a ninth level spell.

What you need is a clause to make whatever combinations of cantrips you cast in a single round a single spell.
The same thing really goes for your example of the wall of stone effect. It's not much use conjuring 36 small squares of stone (unless they're permanent, and you happen to be a really good mason with lots of time on her hands). What's useful is combining all those slabs into a single wall.

ubergeek63
2011-07-06, 08:45 PM
That really doesn't solve the problem The intention is that the spell level of the casting is related to the amount of cantrip uses expended... Doesn't combine the cantrips into a single spell. It doesn't matter how high spell level a minor acid orb is; it still deals only a single d3 damage, even if it is a ninth level spell.

What you need is a clause to make whatever combinations of cantrips you cast in a single round a single spell.
The same thing really goes for your example of the wall of stone effect. It's not much use conjuring 36 small squares of stone (unless they're permanent, and you happen to be a really good mason with lots of time on her hands). What's useful is combining all those slabs into a single wall.

a semantics problem... that is indeed my intent. On the other hand a good mason might WANT a pile of stone slabs so the single cantrip extended to an hour would conjure him 600 of them :smallbiggrin: ...

one of my other thoughts was a wizard might wish up an oasis, but this guy would "build" it. desicated rock to mud creats soil out of sand. a permanant create water for a water supply. permanant environmental effects culled out of tiny hut. summon plants is a variation on the bard's summon instrument. would be an interesting character for a DM to stick out in the desert!

Dryad
2011-07-06, 08:50 PM
Well; you'd have a choice, right? You don't háve to incorporate áll the effects in a single go. ^_^

Anyway, while still an interesting idea, I wouldn't play it... Yet. A few fundamental changes would need happening.

For one, the bonus feats are unclear. What do you mean specifically with reserve and arcane thesis feats? Are they source-book related or not? If so: Which source-book, and could you add a description of the feats so as to prevent any miscommunication?

Another problem is: Armoured Mage. Again, there is absolutely no reason for the class to have that feature.

Another problem, in my mind, is that you begin with the knowledge of áll 0-lvl spells (cantrips and horizons). While not bad per sé, it does mean that you'll never learn anything new. Maybe spread it out, so that you learn two 0-lvl spell lists at first level, another one at fifth, another one at tenth, another one at fifteenth, and a final one at twentieth? This way, you can actually progress.

The maximum amount of cantrips per day is still 1080; an ungodly number. I beg of you to change it to 'infinite;' nobody likes having to keep track of something that'll never be more powerful than melee. It's like saying a fighter can only make 500 attacks per day... With the added problem of combining cantrip spells (which will eat your max amount per day as if they were pop-corn) you'll do a lot of tracking, and lose out on all the fun.

And then: More class features, please. You could make them in the form of progressive packages (go for a versatility build that increases numeric effects of buffs and debuffs by 1-2-3-4 (multiple buffs/debuffs with the same effect don't stack, so why not improve their numeric effects?), a damage build that gains a + on hit rolls with ranged touch spells, a + on save DC versus damage spells, and eventually an increase in damage die size) or something similar.. Allow the player some choice in the kind of cantrip master she wants to play; make progression less linear, and less set in stone, and give players a good reason not to prestige out of the class.

Tanuki Tales
2011-07-06, 09:08 PM
Just want to chime in real fast; I wouldn't call Pathfinder a 3rd party publisher any more. Back in the day when 3.5 was a very alive beast it may well have been but since its made its own flagship d20 roleplaying game it is most certainly a 1st party publisher while anything Wizard of the Coast made fills the role of 3rd party in regards to its game setting.

ubergeek63
2011-07-06, 09:10 PM
Well; you'd have a choice, right? You don't háve to incorporate áll the effects in a single go. ^_^

that's the difference. a wizard wishes it all into existence and needs the wish available. at 12th level he can piece it all together and create a decanter of endless water (control water is a 6th lvl spell), rock to mud and mud to rock are 5th lvl spells.

at 3rd lvl with create wondrous (needed for the decanter as well) a Cantrip Master could create that oasis given enough time to piece it all together.

Epsilon Rose
2011-07-06, 09:44 PM
i know.. some of the "put this information here" stuff was a little confusing and i was just popping in and adding it in shorts bursts as i thought of it.

as to why it would be played... it has a bit of blaster and a bit of healer and while charisma might be the primary stat it does not need to be high for the character to be effective so it multiclasses a bit easier.

of course there can't be any complicated spells that have no numeric quantity to be scaled down since that is the basic concept: the building blocks, the child's toys of the other casting classes, shunned and even forgotten by everyone else, all being used by the idiot savants of the casting classes to produce effects that the other can only wish for (pun intended)

as to the goal... frankly i liked the concept I saw in cantripologist, but it did not make any sense. it allowed any combination of cantrips to be cast at once, even though they would all have different verbal and somatic components and there was no power boost other than to say 2 cantrips per spell level which meant that he would only be doing 2d3 per spell level - ever! so you would have a lvl 20 cantripologist doing 18d3 of damage when a wizard would be doing 20d6.

All right, cool, those are some good goals. Let's break them up and see how they workout:


It should be versatile ("it has a bit of blaster and a bit of healer") and I'm assuming still effective but less powerful than a specialist.

Well, they can certainly do a bit of blasting and a bit of healing, but I think that's about the end of their versatility. You mention culling cantrips from grater spells, but your rules for it are spotty and unless there's a comprehensive list it could be hard to adjudicate a lesser version of certain spells. For example I'm not sure how I'd handle the charm, summon monster or teleport lines or how I'd handle hold person. This gets worse with the weird (and useful) stuff like prismatics.

Use the fundaments of magic to create new effects.

You are technically using some of the simpler components of magic, however, you're not really creating new effects. Certainly nothing a wizard would have to wish for. most of what you're able to do is just watered down damage and a lot of the other stuff isn't all that useful. For example you've brought up the ability to create a spell that heals 1 point of damage every round for an hour. That sounds good, but when you stop to look at it it doesn't really have a place, in combat it will be easily overridden and out of combat any beneficiaries are liable to be healed long before the hours up (either through more efficient spells or through this spell running it's course). The only exception to this would be a really high level party that's being really conservative with resources.
Multi-class friendly.

I think it falls down a bit hear too (baring cheese cases like 32 sneak attacks per round). This form of magic doesn't really work any differently than normal magic as far as multi-classers are concerned (it still only advances through casting classes and non-caster classes still leave it badly weakened). It might even be worse than normal since you seem to miss out on the raw numerics that this class seems to require.


That last bit actually ties into another problem. This class uses really high numbers and burns through them exceptionally quickly. I'm worried it would be easy for players to lose track of how much they have and how much they're spending resulting in running dry extra quick or hoarding there cantrips into uselessness.


Let me make something of a radical suggestion. Make the cantrips more combinatorial than additive. That is rather than having to throwout dozens of acid splashes to create a super acid splash you could combine dancing lights and ghost sound to create an illusion. There's a couple of models if you want something to base it on (DnD-wiki has something called wordcasting (http://www.dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Wordcasting_%283.5e_Variant_Rule%29) that breaks spells into there basic structural components, and I'm working on implementing a syntactic system which you can find in my sig [a.e.g. also had a system that was broken up by school, but I'm not sure how easy it'll be to find{though the freeform mage in my sig references it}]). Since you're already combining the cantrips into bigger spells to get past energy resistance this should fit in the flavor and I don't think anyone's tried making a combinatorial system where the base components are actually usable spells.

ubergeek63
2011-07-06, 09:52 PM
Well; you'd have a choice, right? You don't háve to incorporate áll the effects in a single go. ^_^

Anyway, while still an interesting idea, I wouldn't play it... Yet. A few fundamental changes would need happening.

For one, the bonus feats are unclear. What do you mean specifically with reserve and arcane thesis feats? Are they source-book related or not? If so: Which source-book, and could you add a description of the feats so as to prevent any miscommunication?

Reserve feats are mostly in Complete Mage and a few (like touch of healing) in Complete Champion.

Arcane Thesis is from PLayers Handbook II


Another problem is: Armoured Mage. Again, there is absolutely no reason for the class to have that feature.

Well that was a bit of logic based on the reading of WarMage, and DuskBlade. Their logic is training and restriction. There is no way to restrict it to simpler than cantrips


Another problem, in my mind, is that you begin with the knowledge of áll 0-lvl spells (cantrips and horizons). While not bad per sé, it does mean that you'll never learn anything new. Maybe spread it out, so that you learn two 0-lvl spell lists at first level, another one at fifth, another one at tenth, another one at fifteenth, and a final one at twentieth? This way, you can actually progress.

My fault... it actually does say there that he gets "Cantrip Master Spells Known:INT-6+1/LVL " - he gets 4 + an intelligence bonus + 1/lvl


The maximum amount of cantrips per day is still 1080; an ungodly number. I beg of you to change it to 'infinite;' nobody likes having to keep track of something that'll never be more powerful than melee. It's like saying a fighter can only make 500 attacks per day... With the added problem of combining cantrip spells (which will eat your max amount per day as if they were pop-corn) you'll do a lot of tracking, and lose out on all the fun.

how is that different from keeping track of hit points?

The numbers were based on sorcerer spell levels *4. 9*4=32 cantrips per round for a lvl 9 spell. Total cantrips at lvl 20 = 6 lvl 9 spell slots + 6 lvl 8 spell slots ...


And then: More class features, please. You could make them in the form of progressive packages (go for a versatility build that increases numeric effects of buffs and debuffs by 1-2-3-4 (multiple buffs/debuffs with the same effect don't stack, so why not improve their numeric effects?), a damage build that gains a + on hit rolls with ranged touch spells, a + on save DC versus damage spells, and eventually an increase in damage die size) or something similar.. Allow the player some choice in the kind of cantrip master she wants to play; make progression less linear, and less set in stone, and give players a good reason not to prestige out of the class.
Hmmm ... Well you could go necro with CAUSE minor wounds, fell drain, fell animate, and tomb-tainted (all from Libris Mortis) Adding fell drain to cause minor wounds heals you and your undead while draining your opponents.

I did explicitely state that they get cantrips from normal spells ... you want a to hit bonus go for eldritch knight PRC and get a +5 to hit with a cantrip from true strike (which gives +20 normally on the next attack) if the DM lets you extend a bunch of them it would give you a number of attacks at +5 to hit...

There is plenty of flexibility if you think about it a bit. What were you thinking of? BTW DMs guide specifies damage caps on the spells.

Yitzi
2011-07-06, 09:55 PM
Arcane Thesis reduces the metamagic cost by one spell level, or in this case by one cantrip use as well as increasing it's spell penetration by 2.

Blasting single targets is where widen cantrip metamagic comes in. any cantrip can be widened from touch to ranged touch to 20 foot burst to 40 foot burst etc. The normal widen spell feat only doubles the area of effect and does not do anything for touch attacks.

Ah.


How is it broken aside for everything being considered separate attacks?

I would think that that's enough. When a 10th level rogue with a source of Improved Invisibility can do 5d6 damage and 2 strength damage with every attack, having a lot of attacks per round means he can do insane amounts of ability damage.


If it was all considered a single spell that eliminates that bit of cheese

Not really; you'd need a single attack (or one set of attacks, similar to Scorching ray) rather than just a single spell.

Dryad
2011-07-06, 10:27 PM
I did explicitely state that they get cantrips from normal spells ... you want a to hit bonus go for eldritch knight PRC and get a +5 to hit with a cantrip from true strike (which gives +20 normally on the next attack) if the DM lets you extend a bunch of them it would give you a number of attacks at +5 to hit...
I don't want to have to PRC to get class features. I picked a class; it better have some class features, or I will pick another class. It's no fun playing a DMG commoner class.

True Strike is a first level spell. Not a cantrip. By your logic, I should make a cantrip of it by nerfing the spell, but that's a no-go. Not because of True Strike in particular, but because you'll be playing with gut-feeling versus well-thought out things. Another poster already mentions spells like summoning monsters, hold monster and some other examples... So let's simply not go there. Quintessential spell effects is all well and good, don't get me wrong, but you shouldn't 'milk' them from existing spells, and make those spells essentially lower level because you're taking away their power.
If you want to focus on quitessential spell effects, then classes such as the Chaos Mage are much more suited to your needs.
So even if you explicitly stated that they gain cantrips from normal spells, I would advise strongly to turn away from that path, lest the class turn into a big yes/no dispute between the player and the DM.


Well that was a bit of logic based on the reading of WarMage, and DuskBlade. Their logic is training and restriction. There is no way to restrict it to simpler than cantrips
The Warmage is a combat class, and the Duskblade is even a melee combat class. The Cantrip Master is no more combat oriented than any wizard or sorcerer, really. So there is no logic in this decision. There is no reason why a Cantrip Master should wear armour.


how is that different from keeping track of hit points?
It isn't, really. Hit points (and damage) in d20 is already a very rickety system, but it works, mainly because you don't have to apply that kind of constantly recounting to everything. Hit points suffices. Barely.
Think of it in terms of time invested versus simplicity. The simpler you can make something without harming its versatility, the better. Less time consuming, most definitely. You've been offered a solution that solves two problems, rather than one: Increased versatility IC as well as decreased time invested OC.

Epsilon Rose
2011-07-06, 10:42 PM
The Warmage is a combat class, and the Duskblade is even a melee combat class. The Cantrip Master is no more combat oriented than any wizard or sorcerer, really. So there is no logic in this decision. There is no reason why a Cantrip Master should wear armour.


It isn't, really. Hit points (and damage) in d20 is already a very rickety system, but it works, mainly because you don't have to apply that kind of constantly recounting to everything. Hit points suffices. Barely.
Think of it in terms of time invested versus simplicity. The simpler you can make something without harming its versatility, the better. Less time consuming, most definitely. You've been offered a solution that solves two problems, rather than one: Increased versatility IC as well as decreased time invested OC.

I'd like to clarify those two points:
You can (in fact you did) explain how a cantrip master would go about wearing armor. What you need to explain is why that feature belongs on the class list (rather than having to multi-class or take feats to get it).

You're also not really keeping track of hit points to the same degree you keep track of cantrips. All you care about with hp is weather or not it's above zero/threshold for some hp dependent spell and you do anything in your power to keep it from going down. With cantrips you actually need a much more precise understanding of how fast you're going through them and how many you have left since you have to spend them to use your class you are the one who decides how many get spent. This is compounded by the fact that you can't just suck down a wand/fast heal the expenditure away.

That reminds me, would you find a smaller number of per encounter cantrips more palatable than jumping to unlimited, because that might be a decent middle ground.

Edit: I felt I also should mention that your answer to true stike could result in some seriously bad mojo™. Observe: Your super cantrips count as one spell (that's how they get past energy resistance), that means they don't have to worry about stacking with them selves. By that statment there's no reason a cantrip master couldn't cast 32x true strike light and extend it to permanence, granting them (and any one else they wanted to give it to) a permanent +160 to attack. Obviously that's abusive and should be banned by any even remotely sane dm, but how much should they be allowed to stack? On one hand even x2 granting a plus 10 for an entire encounter is allot, on the other casting the same spell an absurd number of times is sort of this classes schtick and two is a far cry from absurd (even four, which would replicate the original spell for the entire encounter only requires 1 level in this class).

ubergeek63
2011-07-07, 06:31 AM
Edit: I felt I also should mention that your answer to true stike could result in some seriously bad mojo™. Observe: Your super cantrips count as one spell (that's how they get past energy resistance), that means they don't have to worry about stacking with them selves. By that statment there's no reason a cantrip master couldn't cast 32x true strike light and extend it to permanence, granting them (and any one else they wanted to give it to) a permanent +160 to attack. Obviously that's abusive and should be banned by any even remotely sane dm, but how much should they be allowed to stack? On one hand even x2 granting a plus 10 for an entire encounter is allot, on the other casting the same spell an absurd number of times is sort of this classes schtick and two is a far cry from absurd (even four, which would replicate the original spell for the entire encounter only requires 1 level in this class).

I need to get back to a lot now but wanted to reply to this detail ... true strike is not a normal duration spell. You can not cast and attack in the same round. It is effectively one round or until discharged (per SRD: casting time 1 standard action, which negates your attack, and "Your next single attack roll (if it is made before the end of the next round) "). That would make it "permanent until discharged". But that would be a waste, at the end of the day before recharge he could just cast as duration day.

At spell lvl 9 it would be +10 to attack ... 36/16(round-minute-hour-day-cont=4 steps at 4 cantrips per step) rounded down = 2 *5 to hit ... that said i do agree that it is a bit cheesy and even the permanent +10 should be disallowed ... even with 3600XP cost... maybe it would be ok +10 to hit one time every other round with an xp cost of 3600 and can still be dispelled by a higher level caster.

EDIT: not sure if that sounds bad after all.... +10 to hit every other round ... and it seems less costly to use up the night before to buff for the next day. +5 every other round for a day dispel-able in a 3rd level spell would be a more typical use

.........................

"You're also not really keeping track of hit points to the same degree you keep track of cantrips. All you care about with hp is weather or not it's above zero/threshold for some hp dependent spell and you do anything in your power to keep it from going down. With cantrips you actually need a much more precise understanding of how fast you're going through them and how many you have left since you have to spend them to use your class you are the one who decides how many get spent. This is compounded by the fact that you can't just suck down a wand/fast heal the expenditure away."

hmmm easier to follow? the cantrip numbers were directly related to the total sorcerer spell levels and as such would drain at approximately the same rate, but not locked into spell slots. perhaps the same ratios but only keeping track of the highest level spell and splitting it up as needed while limiting casts to discrete spell levels?

.........................................

"You can (in fact you did) explain how a cantrip master would go about wearing armor. What you need to explain is why that feature belongs on the class list (rather than having to multi-class or take feats to get it)."

hmmm well if you wanted to pull a bit of RAW cheese it could be stated that SRD states that only the wizard, sorcerer and monk get no armor proficiency at all.

You could also point out the distinction between armor proficiency and ignoring spell failure, which brings up an interesting option that is right in line with the concept: drop armored mage and add cantrip proficiency which would increase by 1 every even level. Every point would decrease the spell failure by 5% until it is zero after which it would increase spell penetration.

..................................
" 3. Multi-class friendly.

I think it falls down a bit hear too (baring cheese cases like 32 sneak attacks per round). This form of magic doesn't really work any differently than normal magic as far as multi-classers are concerned (it still only advances through casting classes and non-caster classes still leave it badly weakened). It might even be worse than normal since you seem to miss out on the raw numerics that this class seems to require."

Actually you need to say it is cantrips per casting but cast as a single spell. That prevents the sneak attacks per round and healings per round and all such. What I was meaning by multi-class friendly was that the simplicity means you do not need the high charisma as well as high dex or what ever the other class needs.

........................................

"Use the fundaments of magic to create new effects.

You are technically using some of the simpler components of magic, however, you're not really creating new effects. Certainly nothing a wizard would have to wish for. most of what you're able to do is just watered down damage and a lot of the other stuff isn't all that useful. "

This takes it out of the realm of simplicity and cantrips. watered down effects allow you to do much of what the other spells can once the metamagic is used... as to combining different effects to create something else, it can still be done but not as a single casting.
.............................
"It isn't, really. Hit points (and damage) in d20 is already a very rickety system, but it works, mainly because you don't have to apply that kind of constantly recounting to everything. Hit points suffices. Barely.
Think of it in terms of time invested versus simplicity. The simpler you can make something without harming its versatility, the better. Less time consuming, most definitely. You've been offered a solution that solves two problems, rather than one: Increased versatility IC as well as decreased time invested OC."

4E is a waste of time, a perversion of D&D by a stinking toy company making it such that the INT 6-7 of the average American has a more than a chance of grasping it while advancing Magic the Gathering to a gateway drug to what it perceives as a potential cash cow! What is suggested here borders on the stench that protrudes from that situation promoted by Hasbro.

I started playing 1E in '78. 3.5E makes more sense inverting the AC stat and eliminating the hit tables eliminated the absolute max AC of -10 preventing PCs from being able to readily get to the AC of a greater god. There is a reason that the ORIGINAL company was called (T)actical (S)tudies (R)ules. If you dummy it down to much it is no longer a tactical game, it is only a card or video game and you might as well play a scripted static graphic adventure game.
...............................................
Quintessential? Read complicated. There can be a lot of power behind a technically simple effect. 90% of the wizard's castings are relatively simple damage effects. Even summoning is a relatively simple effect if you neglect the compulsion aspect, which is yet another simple effect.

I am taking a concept to it's logical conclusion. Driven individuals CAN overcome limitations implied by those around them. In this case it would be their mediocre primary stats with the limitation being caused by the pompous casting community that does not want the common rabble to think they can do anything at all for themselves.

Over time even the casting community forgot what is possible and the few that figure it out seek to destroy the evidence. Yet they can not destroy the very spells that they use. They have ceased to understand the magic and have become simply parrots and mimes. The sorcerers have a bit of instinct about it, but they rely on the instinct and do not seek the understanding. Wizards seek the understanding but can not see the forest for the trees.

Those that have figured out the difference can separate out simplicity and the meta magic out of the current spells to reveal the inherent simplicity that they evolved from.

The result is a caster that does not require a high casting stat, but is limited to simple, not weak, effects. Most damage spells are simple: force, energy, or matter are called into existence to cause damage ... e=mc^2 is a simple thing.

telekinesis is a force effect. Teleportation would be debatable if it were not for the fact that it is closely related to a summoning and the bard gets a summoning cantrip which means that in the D&D world summoning is considered a simple thing. The difference there is that most summoning spells have a compulsion component built in so that is no longer a simple effect. While cantrips can summon inanimate objects, you could not do a summon monster since that is two functions, not just one.
..............................
"Let me make something of a radical suggestion. Make the cantrips more combinatorial than additive. That is rather than having to throwout dozens of acid splashes to create a super acid splash you could combine dancing lights and ghost sound to create an illusion. "

That takes it out of the realm of cantrips. you can combine various effects to create an illusion, but they can not be cast as a single spell.

Dryad
2011-07-10, 04:52 AM
On 4E: I agree, but you failed to see my point. 'Simple' does not equal 'silly.' The Hit Point system is rickety because it fails to successfully represent someone's state of health. Therefore, it is not a good system. The system is not very time-consuming at start, since all you do is turf off hp until zero (so when large numbers come into play, it quickly becomes time consuming due to the fact that number-shifts also start happening more often/cdontinuous), but it's also not versatile: You can't do anything with it, and it represents nothing in particular.
Maybe the one thing that 4E did right was the 'Bloodied value' thing. And even then, it didn't really do anything much.

Simple is bad? I disagree very much. WoD is a very simple system: Roll a number of dice equal to the number you're given through skill/stat, collect everything 6+, and you have the number of successes. In essence, this is simpler than 'roll a d20, add this, add that, add such and that one, too. If this reaches the target number...'
Chess is also a very simple game. Each piece can make a single type of move. Each piece can be instagibbed, and there's no such thing as damage tracking. Very simple game, chess.

If you dummy it down to much it is no longer a tactical game, it is only a card or video game and you might as well play a scripted static graphic adventure game.
The goal of each and every single game should be: As much simplicity as you can get away with. Well; no; the goal is to entertain. And when gaming, having to work out everything on a calculator while slowing down everyone else's gaming experience while having to recalculate because you forgot some detail or other... That's not entertaining.
Please also note that by simple, I mean 'simple' on the player's end. That doesn't mean it's simple of the developer's end; often quite the contrary. The simpler you try to make a game, the harder it is to do right.

And that is one of the problems with this class. Well; to be honest, I still don't see why the Cantrip Master should wear armour. As you said, only the Wizard, Sorcerer and Monk of the SRD don't wear armour, but for one of these classes, not wearing armour at all is rather the point, while the other two classes are not combat classes. They shouldn't stand in front of someone with a club. Ever. They're casters. Much like this class.

create their own (spells) by read magic from scrolls resulting in reduced power versions or separating out effects of larger spells that most casters do not consider worthy of their attention like a "create stone" that is basis of a wall of stone spell
This still doesn't make sense. Nowhere in the class link do you offer a conversion system, so you should run into big trouble. According to this line, you could basically get the essense of a finger of death spell (which is 'save or die' and put that in a cantrip (effectively becoming 'save or die;' power is now irrelevant). This is a much unwanted complication, and the conversion isn't based on anything. You've stated you can craft a 'true strike' spell with +5 instead of +20 (the normal amount), but you give no system on which to base the +5 amount. We don't know how you got there. Since I think most of the Cantrip Master's spells would be derived from non-0 lvl spell lists (meaning: They're not really cantrips to begin with), this is a problem.

It's also nice that you give your credentials as a player of 1st edition, but being a consumer does not equal being a producer. I love chocolate, and I know how I think chocolate should taste, but don't ask me to make chocolate.

ubergeek63
2011-07-11, 08:58 AM
On 4E: I agree, but you failed to see my point. 'Simple' does not equal 'silly.' The Hit Point system is rickety because it fails to successfully represent someone's state of health. Therefore, it is not a good system. The system is not very time-consuming at start, since all you do is turf off hp until zero (so when large numbers come into play, it quickly becomes time consuming due to the fact that number-shifts also start happening more often/cdontinuous), but it's also not versatile: You can't do anything with it, and it represents nothing in particular.
Maybe the one thing that 4E did right was the 'Bloodied value' thing. And even then, it didn't really do anything much.

If you want accuracy change most if not all d20 rolls to 3d6. That skews probabilities to the statistically correct center while not changing game mechanics


The goal of each and every single game should be: As much simplicity as you can get away with. Well; no; the goal is to entertain. And when gaming, having to work out everything on a calculator while slowing down everyone else's gaming experience while having to recalculate because you forgot some detail or other... That's not entertaining.
Please also note that by simple, I mean 'simple' on the player's end. That doesn't mean it's simple of the developer's end; often quite the contrary. The simpler you try to make a game, the harder it is to do right.

I agree. And this more so than most since you need balance between what the player might want and what the rules allow, which would not be so bad if it were only a single classes cantrips involved! I have also caught some flack about complexity... while this class does allow complexity it does not require it... i am being forced to outline simplicity instead of assuming the player will do it for himself.

spell creation on the fly would make it very complex indeed. What you are implying here is that I should jump start them by supplying a few spell builds for a few levels of spells to demonstrate the flexibility that I see there and the ease of use by building favorite spells ahead of time and being able to be more creative when the situation called for it.


And that is one of the problems with this class. Well; to be honest, I still don't see why the Cantrip Master should wear armour. As you said, only the Wizard, Sorcerer and Monk of the SRD don't wear armour, but for one of these classes, not wearing armour at all is rather the point, while the other two classes are not combat classes. They shouldn't stand in front of someone with a club. Ever. They're casters. Much like this class.

This still doesn't make sense. Nowhere in the class link do you offer a conversion system, so you should run into big trouble. According to this line, you could basically get the essense of a finger of death spell (which is 'save or die' and put that in a cantrip (effectively becoming 'save or die;' power is now irrelevant). This is a much unwanted complication, and the conversion isn't based on anything. You've stated you can craft a 'true strike' spell with +5 instead of +20 (the normal amount), but you give no system on which to base the +5 amount. We don't know how you got there. Since I think most of the Cantrip Master's spells would be derived from non-0 lvl spell lists (meaning: They're not really cantrips to begin with), this is a problem.

It's also nice that you give your credentials as a player of 1st edition, but being a consumer does not equal being a producer. I love chocolate, and I know how I think chocolate should taste, but don't ask me to make chocolate.
Starting from the end: I agree, it takes more creativity and effort to be a producer. Of course you can be a creator with out as much effort (still a lot more than a consumer though) since you only need to create once to be a creator! :smallbiggrin:

As a work in progress it has been heavily edited since the original and some mechanics updated as well as having some of the mechanics of cantrip culling clarified... brought it to 9th level equivalent spells per day and heard about it *sounding* to strong since DMs would respond with "30 9th level spells? NO WAY!" so I need to reword it some. One of the things was to make it EXPLICIT that there had to be a numeric effect that could be scaled down to 1/4 spell level, how to do it and that damage dice per level became simply 1/2 die and no per level.

The 4 cantrips per spell level needed to be there to balance cleric cure minor wounds based stuff with the arcane damage caps but it fits with the theme anyhow.

I am also thinking that the spells developed need to be caster specific with only a 10% chance that even another CM would be able to just use them. interesting game mechanic with the effect of making things like wands dirt cheap if made by the individual for personal use. Hmmm... I actually like that option and it gives players a reason to take and stick with the class: being able to make a wand of fireballs for 2K gp and 160xp! (SRD states that the cost of a item goes down 30% with a class or alignment restriction... how much then for a personal restriction?)

Dryad
2011-07-11, 08:05 PM
One of the things was to make it EXPLICIT that there had to be a numeric effect that could be scaled down to 1/4 spell level,
I think this is the main bit that requires some form of explanation. I mean; I don't quite get your point.. Would a cantrip stoneskin spell grant a shield that absorbs 25 damage? Since stoneskin is obviously a higher level spell than True Strike, this might pose a power problem.
That, and.. Do the effects stack? (probably not).

There's also some confusion on my part in your (new) formatting. It tells us the maximum effective spell level, and the maximum amount of spells per day at maximum spell level... But as far as I understand it, the maximum spell level serves only to increase the spell level of a cantrip, right?
So you would only get 4 cantrips per day at lvl 1?

Your explanations above imply something else going on, but there is no system for it.

So a request on my part: Would it be an idea to post, or write down, a rough sketch of the system first, and thén put the specific resulting data in tables? Because I have no idea what the spell tables mean, and that system is what I'm most interested in. :)

Oh, on spell creation on the fly (even though it is made for the appalling system that is 4th Edition), I tailored a chaos mage system you can find here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=205376&highlight=Chaos+Mage). It's not actually very complicated, but like I admit somewhere later on, it's a lot of book-keeping.
Since I no longer play 4E, I'm hesitant of completing the class. Another reason is: The base system requires absolutely no reason for me to keep making powers for every level. :P Anyway; just to give you a gist of what I made of the idea of composing your own spells (in a system that is, admittedly, absolutely not tailored to my wishes).

Please note that I don't think my idea is in any way the way to go, but it might offer you some ideas of what (not) to do. :smallwink:

ubergeek63
2011-07-12, 10:57 AM
I think this is the main bit that requires some form of explanation. I mean; I don't quite get your point.. Would a cantrip stoneskin spell grant a shield that absorbs 25 damage? Since stoneskin is obviously a higher level spell than True Strike, this might pose a power problem.
That, and.. Do the effects stack? (probably not).

5 points per cantrip


There's also some confusion on my part in your (new) formatting. It tells us the maximum effective spell level, and the maximum amount of spells per day at maximum spell level... But as far as I understand it, the maximum spell level serves only to increase the spell level of a cantrip, right?
So you would only get 4 cantrips per day at lvl 1?

4 cantrips max per round 16 cantrips per day


Your explanations above imply something else going on, but there is no system for it.

So a request on my part: Would it be an idea to post, or write down, a rough sketch of the system first, and thén put the specific resulting data in tables? Because I have no idea what the spell tables mean, and that system is what I'm most interested in. :)

Oh, on spell creation on the fly (even though it is made for the appalling system that is 4th Edition), I tailored a chaos mage system you can find here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=205376&highlight=Chaos+Mage). It's not actually very complicated, but like I admit somewhere later on, it's a lot of book-keeping.
Since I no longer play 4E, I'm hesitant of completing the class. Another reason is: The base system requires absolutely no reason for me to keep making powers for every level. :P Anyway; just to give you a gist of what I made of the idea of composing your own spells (in a system that is, admittedly, absolutely not tailored to my wishes).

Please note that I don't think my idea is in any way the way to go, but it might offer you some ideas of what (not) to do. :smallwink:

one of my problems too... discussions with you and one of the others here have pointed out the good and the bad and seem to be leading in another direction that is both more basic magic wise and more flexible.

that is actually a gripe that got me going on this: decoupling spell power rom the casting stat... I think we are headed to a class that casts at the sub cantrip level, allows spell power from stat 11 to start, and limits spell compexity only by stat. starting a cha 11 at 8th he would have cha 13 and would just be able to get stuff like stone wall but would be doing fire ball type damage ... will try to load in the framework tonight

Dryad
2011-07-13, 07:32 AM
5 points per cantrip
4 cantrips max per round 16 cantrips per day
I still don't see any formulas of how you get there. I'm not as much interested in the answer to the question as I am to the system that delivers the answer.

ubergeek63
2011-07-13, 08:46 AM
I still don't see any formulas of how you get there. I'm not as much interested in the answer to the question as I am to the system that delivers the answer.

Now that is the right question! :smalltongue:

the 4 cantrips per spell level is a gimmick allowing proper balance between existing arcane cantrip power and existing divine cantrip power.

the 16 cantrips per day is directly from the sorcerer total spell levels per day

the 5 points is scaling down the True Strike 20 to 1/4 level.

Dryad
2011-07-13, 09:01 AM
the 4 cantrips per spell level is a gimmick allowing proper balance between existing arcane cantrip power and existing divine cantrip power.
But it doesn't say so in your class. Basically, we're left to guess. What it says is that one (1) cantrip is a first level spell at lvl 1, and a second level spell at level 3.


the 16 cantrips per day is directly from the sorcerer total spell levels per day
Again, it doesn't say in your class. It tells us that you have 4 spells per day at lvl one, meaning 4 cantrips.


the 5 points is scaling down the True Strike 20 to 1/4 level.
It isn't, though.
+5 to hit is indeed one quarter of +20. True Strike is a first level spell.
A Cantrip Wail of the Banshee, however, would kill {18/4=4.5} creatures at lvl 18, the entry lvl for ninth lvl cantrips. Basically, you're casting a cantrip that forces a save or die from four creatures.
An anti-magic field cannot be divided by 4, so the obvious solution is to make anti-magic field a cantrip; a sixth lvl sorcerer or wizard spell.

The problem with this ability is that while you can scale down numeric effects of the spell by dividing them by four, you're not actually paying attention to the spell's actual level of difficulty, and because of that, you're ignoring the main reason for the spell's power.

The biggest problem, though, is that your class doesn't actually say you can do that. It doesn't actually say you can combine up to four cantrips in a single spell. It doesn't say you get sixteen cantrips per day at first lvl. It says none of these things, while these things are the make-or-break of the class.
Cantrip Research isn't enough information to go on.

ubergeek63
2011-07-13, 09:09 AM
But it doesn't say so in your class. Basically, we're left to guess. What it says is that one (1) cantrip is a first level spell at lvl 1, and a second level spell at level 3.


Again, it doesn't say in your class. It tells us that you have 4 spells per day at lvl one, meaning 4 cantrips.


It isn't, though.
+5 to hit is indeed one quarter of +20. True Strike is a first level spell.
A Cantrip Wail of the Banshee, however, would kill {18/4=4.5} creatures at lvl 18, the entry lvl for ninth lvl cantrips. Basically, you're casting a cantrip that forces a save or die from four creatures.
An anti-magic field cannot be divided by 4, so the obvious solution is to make anti-magic field a cantrip; a sixth lvl sorcerer or wizard spell.

The problem with this ability is that while you can scale down numeric effects of the spell by dividing them by four, you're not actually paying attention to the spell's actual level of difficulty, and because of that, you're ignoring the main reason for the spell's power.

The biggest problem, though, is that your class doesn't actually say you can do that. It doesn't actually say you can combine up to four cantrips in a single spell. It doesn't say you get sixteen cantrips per day at first lvl. It says none of these things, while these things are the make-or-break of the class.
Cantrip Research isn't enough information to go on.

well actually it did say.. it was just a confusing mess... it has been rewritten and clarified

Dryad
2011-07-13, 09:56 AM
Cantrip Mastery:The Cantrip Master gets four cantrips per spell level instead of just two.
Instead of just two? Who gets 'just two cantrips per spell level?' What does this by-sentence imply?
He can cast as many cantrips in a single round as will add up to the maximum spell level and count as a single spell of that level.
Ehm... I know what you're trying to say, but it's not working. Grammatically, this can mean just about anything or nothing at all. A cantrip is still a 0-lvl spell.
Metamagics apply to the individual cantrips, like metamagic spell trigger in a wand, instead of to spells at a rate of one cantrip per spell level.
Does this mean that if I want to metamagic four minor acid orb cantrips (as one spell) I'm going to spend 4 additional cantrips just to get the total result evened out? Does this mean I can meta 2 of the minor orbs, and keep 2 of the orbs as normal, costing me a total of 6 cantrips? Does THAT then mean that I can't do this at first level because my maximum amount is 4? What does 'instead of to spells at a rate of...' mean?
As spell slots are used they can be split into lower level spells as needed. can I split a fourth lvl spell slot in four 1st lvl spell slots? In 16 cantrips? In 12 cantrips and 1 first lvl spell? How do I get spells of higher lvl than 0 if all I can cast is 0?


Your table gives us a max 'effective spell lvl,' (which I understand is a maximum complexity level of a spell) and a maximum amount of maximum spell level spells per day. This is even more confusing than simply having a maximum amount of cantrips per day. That was basically what I meant with 'the class doesn't say so.' Basically, the table could very well insinuate that you can only cast four max complexity spells per day, but have absolutely no limit on the amount of cantrips you can cast, so you could cast an infinite amount of complexity 3 spells per day, for instance. It simply doesn't say.

Remember: You have an idea. And in your head, your idea works. But I don't have your head. None of the other readers do. We don't see your invisible links, so you really do have to spell every single detail out for us.

ubergeek63
2011-07-13, 08:52 PM
Instead of just two? Who gets 'just two cantrips per spell level?' What does this by-sentence imply?
Ehm... I know what you're trying to say, but it's not working. Grammatically, this can mean just about anything or nothing at all. A cantrip is still a 0-lvl spell.
Does this mean that if I want to metamagic four minor acid orb cantrips (as one spell) I'm going to spend 4 additional cantrips just to get the total result evened out? Does this mean I can meta 2 of the minor orbs, and keep 2 of the orbs as normal, costing me a total of 6 cantrips? Does THAT then mean that I can't do this at first level because my maximum amount is 4? What does 'instead of to spells at a rate of...' mean? can I split a fourth lvl spell slot in four 1st lvl spell slots? In 16 cantrips? In 12 cantrips and 1 first lvl spell? How do I get spells of higher lvl than 0 if all I can cast is 0?

It means that you have 4 cantrips a round and the least orb of acid would be 1d3. You could use them as a ranged touch attack for 4d3 or as a burst (for 1 cantrip use per cantrip) of 2d3.

The mechanics allow you to cast the power available in a level 6 spell with out having access to the level 6 spell list do to a low casting stat. What has been brought to my attention is that there should be a reason in the class to increase the casting stat and something that you would be giving up if you prestige out of the class. The problem I was having was satisfying those to reasonable class attributes without breaking the class theme. :frown:

And yes the point is to split them up... another attempt to satisfy requests, simplicity and record keeping in this case

actually an antimagic field is 10 minutes per lvl. for a level 6 spell that is 120 minutes. 120/6/4=5 minutes

by srd definition a cantrip is a 1/2 lvl spell

Epsilon Rose
2011-07-13, 11:34 PM
10*6=60. I think it would only last for 2.5 minutes

ubergeek63
2011-07-14, 04:59 AM
10*6=60. I think it would only last for 2.5 minutes

perhaps i misread something. I was thinking it was ten minutes per caster level. minimum caster level for a lvl 6 spell (antimagic shell) is 12. 12*10 was the 120 minutes.