Wizard Challenge

[simulacrum]

Here's an interesting challenge for a god.

Let's take the city of Sharn. You're a level 20 wizard. Your job is to kill every single living human (and human only) above the age of 18 within the city as close to simultaneously as possible without touching anything else, living or otherwise, at all.

(And if for some reason this challenge is easier than I think it is, let's see if we can do it with a wizard 15, and then a wizard 10.)

All sources in print permitted, but no Dragon Magazine or random online errata (in the normal sense of the word).

[dextercorvia]

Apocalypse from the Sky (BoVD) will go a long way toward this. We'll need to add some mitigated metamagic, like Energy Admixture. Pick the Sonic version to start with, and add Electric. We can then make it Born of the Three Thunders, and Explosive. Since it explicitly damages objects, we can clear out all of the debris, so that everyone who fails their save is shunted a sufficient amount to achieve fatal damage.

[Divide by Zero]

You could probably get close with some Locate City Bomb style combo and a humanbane effect. But I'm pretty sure it's impossible to discriminate based on age without making a custom spell, at which point the entire challenge becomes trivial.

Edit: and that's ignoring the fact that other casters, things with spell resistance, etc. will significantly complicate things.

[dgnslyr]

This takes some creative thinking. Open up a voting booth, offer incentives to vote, and kill everybody who goes in? Probably with a delayed effect, too, so nobody notices right away. What's a good way to reliably kill people with a delayed effect? I admit, I'm not an expert on spells in general.

Vote Today and get free Milk and Cookies!

[Flickerdart]

Necrotic Cyst cast on people as you meet them (or they walk into your poll booth/free puppy and hugs dispensary), then when you have them all, the spells that make the cysts explode. Kind of missing the point of the original challenge because the prep takes a pretty long time, though.

[Big Fau]

This takes some creative thinking. Open up a voting booth, offer incentives to vote, and kill everybody who goes in? Probably with a delayed effect, too, so nobody notices right away. What's a good way to reliably kill people with a delayed effect? I admit, I'm not an expert on spells in general.

Vote Today and get free Milk and Cookies!

Make the ballots out of pages from a Death Note. Make everyone sign their name before they vote.

[wyrmsbane2]

what about a contingent spell, like poison or contagion. all you need is to figure out how to get the spell to the targets, then assign a very specific trigger, like the arrival of a comet across the sky or something

[crazyhedgewizrd]

a air born contagion would be easy to spead, just have to research a disease that targets humans than have gone through puberty. A lvl 10 wizard should be able to do it through a contagion spell. If you dont want people to find out were the disease is coming from quickly, just make yourself the carrier.


A wish spell could also make the disease.

[ArcanistSupreme]

Chain gate efreetis and be creative with your wishes?

[dextercorvia]

Wow, I totally didn't read the OP thoroughly. I wasn't trying to be at all discriminating with my destruction.

[NecroRick]

Since it is Sharn there is always this: find a way to attack the towers, e.g. by cutting off access to the manifest zone that lets them go unnaturally highread Fallen Angel

For a generic city the standard tactics for medieval sieges are to poison the water supply, give them diseases and cut off their access to food. since you're a wizard, just figure out a way to accelerate this process.

Contagion is a 'good' start.

[WinWin]

Custom genesis demiplane.

You want Slow or No Time. Negative Energy Dominance would be useful as well, to inflict automatic negative levels.

Nercropolitan wizard to avoid the damage from your demiplane.

Gather Census data. Double check via divinations such as CoP and legend lore.

Tap your thought bottle.

Gate citizen #1 to your demiplane. Make him sing and dance for 1 round/caster level or until he dies from negative energy exposure.

Recover XP from thought bottle.

Move on to citizen # 2.

Repeat until the population has been adjusted according to your whims.

Due to the time trait of your demiplane, the relative time elapsed in Sharn should be minimal.

500 xp lost. Will remove all citizens that lack protections against indirect divinations and calling spells.

[NecroRick]

TLDR (aka executive summary) Genesis gives you an air-conditioner, not a Tardis.

By RAW and RAI absolutely nothing in the Genesis spells or powers give you control over Traits.


Custom genesis demiplane.

You want Slow or No Time.

Negative Energy Dominance would be useful as well, to inflict automatic negative levels.


This is a gross misreading of the genesis spells and powers. I'm not blaming you, it is quite common, but still wishful thinking nonetheless.

The various versions of Genesis create a plane which is 180 feet in radius. Compare that with for instance:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineRanksAndPowers.htm#godlyRealm

As far as equivalency with that table goes, you would expect to get control over your demi-plane roughly equal to that of a Rank 1.8 demigod.

Now, the spell is worded in such a way that people who rush in looking for abuses are going to see this wording

" reflecting most any desire you can visualize "

and that is where they stop which is a big mistake when reading the rules. You can't just take one thing and ignore the context, and you can't then also ignore all the restrictions that come after it.

Okay, first up, what was the context of that sentence? Immediately preceding the "OMG I CAN HAZ ANYTHING I WANT - ULTIMATE POWERZ HERE I COMEZ" section it talks about the environment.

Immediately after that it gives examples of what you can actually do, and the examples are limited to:

"atmosphere, water, temperature, and the general shape of the terrain."

You know, 'environment' stuff. Uh oh.

And then it goes on to talk about what you can't do:

"This spell cannot create life (including vegetation), nor can it create construction (such as buildings, roads, wells, dungeons, and so forth)."

Double uh oh. After all, if we can't do any of that (much simpler) stuff, how can we give it negative energy and time traits?

Anyway, lets compare that to the Godly Realms stuff:

At Divine Rank 1 what can you do?

"Within this area, the deity can set any temperature that is normal for the plane where the realm is located (for the Material Plane, any temperature from -20ºF to 120ºF),"

So good so far, looks very very similar.

"and fill the area with scents and sounds as the deity sees fit. Sounds can be no louder than one hundred humans could make, but not intelligible speech or harmful sound. The deity’s ability to create scents is similar."

Hmm... well, the spells and powers don't say anything about sounds or smells. Huh.

"Deities of rank 6 or higher can create the sounds of intelligible speech."

Huh.

Then there's a blurb about how you can erect buildings through your own labour but you don't get them as freebies (the same as the spells and powers)

"A deity of rank 6 or higher not only has control over the environment, but also controls links to the Astral Plane. Manipulating a realm’s astral links renders teleportation and similar effects useless within the realm." "blah blah portals blah"

Funny how the spells are suspiciously silent about these capabilities...

"A deity of rank 11 or higher can also apply the enhanced magic or impeded magic trait to up to four groups of spells (schools, domains, or spells with the same descriptor). The enhanced magic trait enables a metamagic feat to be applied to a group of spells without requiring higher-level spell slots. Many deities apply the enhanced magic trait to their domain spells, making them maximized (as the Maximize Spell feat) within the boundaries of their realm. The impeded magic trait doesn’t affect the deity’s spells and spell-like abilities."

And that's missing from the spell as well.

"In addition, a deity of rank 11 or higher can erect buildings as desired and alter terrain within ten miles to become any terrain type found on the Material Plane. These buildings and alterations are manifestations of the deity’s control over the realm."

Oooh, this is interesting, even if you engage in deliberate misreading, rules lawyering or just hand-waving and ignore all the previous signs, at level 11 there is something that the player explicitly cannot do with their version of the spell.

Now we get to "the good stuff"

"A greater deity (rank 16 or higher) also can perform any one of the following acts:

Change or apply a gravity trait within the realm.
Change or apply an elemental or energy trait within the realm.
Change or apply a time trait within the realm."

Notice how the player's equivalent levels of control over the demiplane have petered out long before we ever get anywhere near that stuff?

Is it really reasonable to assume that you control those things through your control of the environment? If you still think that, there's more bad news:

"As a standard action, the deity can specify a new environmental condition. The change gradually takes effect over the next 10 minutes. Changing astral links, planar traits, or terrain requires more effort, and the deity must labor for a year and a day to change them."

A clear and explicit distinction is being drawn here between 'environment' and that other stuff that the people misreading this think they can set. If planar traits fit under the environmental category then the wording would have to indicate that they were an exception, but it doesn't, it treats them as a separate category from 'environment'.

"Well then", you might ask. "That is all very fine and good, but what is this mysterious 'other category' eh? You talk a fine game so far, but you appear to be committing a fraud almost as bad as taking things out of context! You are multiplying the entities here, and Occam's Razor says that is naughty! Bad NecroRick! Show us this other category, we demand proof!"

"Oh, ok" I might reply. "Look here:"

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/planes.htm

All those things that don't fit into the 'environment' category do actually have an existing category of their own. I'm not multiplying entities, and I'm not making this stuff up, they clearly belong to the category called 'Traits'.

But wait, what about that "you can do anything you want" clause? Unfortunately that is firmly sandwiched in by the context of the environment both before and after, so there isn't even the wriggle room of claiming that the discussion of the environment had ended (or not yet begun). You can only treat it as giving you anything you want if you deliberately take it out of its context.

The context makes it clear that the thing you have control of: 'the environment' consists of nothing more than atmosphere, temperature, water and general shape of the terrain.

Funnily enough, a fairly close equivalent in ordinary English usage would be to call that stuff "the environment"! What an amazing coincidence!

=======

Here is (my version of) what that section of the spell is saying:

"The spellcaster determines the atmosphere.
The spellcaster determines the presence or absence of water.
The spellcaster determines the temperature.
The spellcaster determines the general shape of the terrain.
This spell cannot create life (including vegetation), nor can it create construction (such as buildings, roads, wells, dungeons, and so forth).
The spellcaster may add these things in some other fashion if he or she desires.
Once the basic demiplane reaches its maximum size, the spellcaster can continue to cast this spell to enlarge the demiplane, adding another 180 feet of radius to the demiplane each time."


Now even with that wording, I think players would still try to abuse the temperature clause. But hey, if I can talk the power gamers down from being more powerful and having more control over their demiplane than the most powerful of gods? I consider that a bonus.

Going back to the post which I replied to: note that even the most powerful deity could only change one of those traits, and you want to change multiples of them?

[WinWin]

Are you saying that traits like gravity and time are not part of the environment? Is that your plain english interpretation?

Nowhere does the spell state that Genisis must produce a plane with an environment even remotely like the prime material plane. Planar traits are fair game as they reflect the environment somewhere in the D&D multiverse.

It can be a vacuum with no gravity or a cloud of superheated mercury. Whatever the caster can envisage. It can even be a soul sucking void where time itself ceases to function.

When compared to the Psionic equivelant, you will note that the Genesis power has specific limitations that the Genesis spell lacks. The psionic Genesis also has a far smaller XP cost attached to it. Not a justification for my reasoning, but interesting.

So feel free to make comparisons with the rules in Deities and Demigods. I'm just as happy to make comparisons with the rules in the XPH. It adds nothing to this discussion (though it will inevitably turn this debate toward Ice Assassin simulacra and Pun Pun).

[Fouredged Sword]

that being said the fastest way to level a city with presision is an ice assasin of pun-pun with eschew material components and vow of poverty letting you trade exp for expensive components.

Now create punpun. have him smack everything over 18 years old to death with his infinately long arms of lizard justice!

[NecroRick]

Are you saying that traits like gravity and time are not part of the environment? Is that your plain english interpretation?


Absolutely



Nowhere does the spell state that Genisis must produce a plane with an environment even remotely like the prime material plane.


True. (ish) Except... no... not really. Compare with the godly realms for a reality check.

I understand the argument that you're desperately trying to make, based on that snippet you've pulled out of that sentence, I'm just the voice of reason saying that if you pull words out of context you can make any rule say anything you like.

As soon as you put it back into context, the dream of ultimate power dies.



Planar traits are fair game


Not so. Neither RAI (hence the big comparison with godly powers over demiplanes) nor RAW support that interpretation.



as they reflect the environment somewhere in the D&D multiverse.


Not so. Environment and Traits are clearly and explicitly different things.



It can be a vacuum with no gravity


No, gravity is ruled out.



or a cloud of superheated mercury.


On the temperature I am not inclined to agree (I would explicitly home rule against it based on the description in the godly realm section which does specify a 'normal' range of temperatures), but as for making it out of a bunch of metal, that is covered here:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/genesis.htm

" Similarly, you can’t create a demiplane out of esoteric material, such as silver or uranium; you’re limited to stone and dirt. You can’t manipulate the time trait on your demiplane; its time trait is as the Material Plane."




Whatever the caster can envisage. It can even be a soul sucking void where time itself ceases to function.


This is exactly my point. In fact you've more than made my point, because you've escalated from merely taking a small fragment of a sentence out of context to ignoring what is actually written - that it is the visual aspect (envisage) that you control, and you've turned that into to control over things that cannot be visualised!

Please note that even if we did take the text out of context it doesn't say anything you can imagine.

It is talking about the visual appearance of the environment, and you can make it look like anything you want except:
no life
no buildings or other constructed material

You don't even have enough control over the spell to erect a garden shed - and yet you want to make the demi-plane out of superheated mercury? Why not solid gold? Heck, that's easy to visualise. Why not make it out of an infinite supply of free xp to anyone there? I can imagine that.



When compared to the Psionic equivelant, you will note that the Genesis power has specific limitations that the Genesis spell lacks. The psionic Genesis also has a far smaller XP cost attached to it. Not a justification for my reasoning, but interesting.


I attribute that as it being written later, and hence spelled out in more detail, but that they mean pretty much exactly the same thing except for the psionic one continuing to (slowly) grow.



So feel free to make comparisons with the rules in Deities and Demigods. I'm just as happy to make comparisons with the rules in the XPH.


Really? Did you miss the part about time traits not being part of 'the environment'? :smallbiggrin:

[WinWin]

It's interesting you referenced the psionic Genisis in your rebuttal.

I was referring to a wizard, casting the spell of the same name.

RE Deities and Demigods; Sure dieties can effect planar traits. They can also make attack rolls, skill checks and cast spells. Are PC's precluded from using those abilities because dieties have them?

Referencing another sourcebook detailing specific rules for specific cicumstanses in order to justify your interpretaion of the text of a spell from yet another sourcebook is a false dichotomy. Not at all useful for this discussion.

RE environment; Detailed on page 302 DMG. Refers to Chapter 3 of the same book. Strict, deals with common environmental effects and hazards, even says that in the relevant text. Flip to page 147 on the description of planar adventures...Lo and behold, planes are described as environments that function by a differing set of natural laws than the prime material plane.

Planar traits thus categorise environment that differ from the prime material. Environmental effects that are fair game for use by the caster of the spell Genesis.

So, gravity is an environmental effect. That is RAW.

{{scrubbed}}

[Divide by Zero]

Genesis is cast from the ethereal plane, so why would it necessarily have any ties with the material? With no text to support that interpretation, it's totally arbitrary.

[Telonius]

Anything that's capable of creating its own demiplane is close enough to a demigod, IMO.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

The mere fact that the Psionic Genesis explicitly mentions no fiddling with the Time trait implies that without that mention (which is lacking in the wiz/sorc 9th level spell version), you explicitly CAN.

[NecroRick]

The mere fact that the Psionic Genesis explicitly mentions no fiddling with the Time trait implies that without that mention (which is lacking in the wiz/sorc 9th level spell version), you explicitly CAN.

That's explicitly not how explicit works.

In fact, it isn't even implied. Example: it doesn't say that I gain a level every time I cast fireball, so that explicitly means I do?



Anything that's capable of creating its own demiplane is close enough to a demigod, IMO.


Good point. Of course, NO god or demigods can manipulate traits plural, and only the greatest and most powerful can manipulate trait singular.

Demigods are so far from being able to manipulate even a single trait of their demiplane as to make the very idea laughable. If we related it to mortal spellcasting it is like the difference between casting cantrips and casting 7th level spells.

Given that, I upgrade you from good point to excellent point, and you get an internet cookie.



Genesis is cast from the ethereal plane, so why would it necessarily have any ties with the material?


Using the dodgy logic my naysayers are using I could just say "well it doesn't say that it isn't prime material".

Better would be to say that the demi-plane has the same general environment (and perhaps traits) as your home plane?



With no text to support that interpretation,




Similarly, you can’t create a demiplane out of esoteric material, such as silver or uranium; you’re limited to stone and dirt. You can’t manipulate the time trait on your demiplane; its time trait is as the Material Plane.
...
In addition, a deity of rank 11 or higher can erect buildings as desired and alter terrain within ten miles to become any terrain type found on the Material Plane.
...
Within this area, the deity can set any temperature that is normal for the plane where the realm is located (for the Material Plane, any temperature from -20ºF to 120ºF)


There is in fact text to support the interpretation.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

That's explicitly not how explicit works.

In fact, it isn't even implied. Example: it doesn't say that I gain a level every time I cast fireball, so that explicitly means I do?



Good point. Of course, NO god or demigods can manipulate traits plural, and only the greatest and most powerful can manipulate trait singular.

Demigods are so far from being able to manipulate even a single trait of their demiplane as to make the very idea laughable. If we related it to mortal spellcasting it is like the difference between casting cantrips and casting 7th level spells.

Given that, I upgrade you from good point to excellent point, and you get an internet cookie.



Using the dodgy logic my naysayers are using I could just say "well it doesn't say that it isn't prime material".

Better would be to say that the demi-plane has the same general environment (and perhaps traits) as your home plane?





There is in fact text to support the interpretation.

A deity is able to spontaneously change the various traits of a plane whenever they like. A wizard using Genesis cannot do so after creation. However, he can define it however he likes, including defining traits.

Besides, a pathetically easy (and completely RAW) way is to make it a vacuum atmosphere (which is specifically mentioned within the description), and allow them to suffocate, while not needing to breathe yourself.

[Divide by Zero]

That's explicitly not how explicit works.

In fact, it isn't even implied. Example: it doesn't say that I gain a level every time I cast fireball, so that explicitly means I do?
While I agree it's not explicit, your example is flawed. Are there any spells which say "You do not gain a level when you cast this spell"? If there were, you might have something of a point.

Better would be to say that the demi-plane has the same general environment (and perhaps traits) as your home plane?

Eh, there's plenty of ways to fix that.

[crazyhedgewizrd]

i always say the demi-plane has to be livable,and reflexs your home enviroment.


if you want a plane that has all the traits you want, there should be a plane somewhere in existance, and that should be a campagne length quest just to find.

[Divide by Zero]

if you want a plane that has all the traits you want, there should be a plane somewhere in existance, and that should be a campagne length quest just to find.

1. Make Knowledge: The Planes check.
2. Cast plane shift.

Do your campaigns normally last 12 seconds?

[crazyhedgewizrd]

1. Make Knowledge: The Planes check.
2. Cast plane shift.

Do your campaigns normally last 12 seconds?


Knowledge check does not always pass.

Plane shift, you need something from that plane to get there.


Can we just get back to the oringal question.

[dgnslyr]

Besides, Gating all your problems into oblivion just seems too easy. I mean, why not summon a flock of Solars with orders to kill every man and woman of age 18 and above?

[NecroRick]

A deity is able to spontaneously change the various traits of a plane whenever they like.


Are we looking at the same SRD? From here:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineRanksAndPowers.htm#godlyRealm

It says:
(1) Once a deity sets the conditions in its realm, they are permanent, though the deity can change them.
(2) As a standard action, the deity can specify a new environmental condition. The change gradually takes effect over the next 10 minutes.
(3) Changing astral links, planar traits, or terrain requires more effort, and the deity must labor for a year and a day to change them. During this time, the deity must spend 8 hours a day on the project.

#3 appears to directly contradict what you said.

Moreover, I note that ordinary run of the mill deities can't do that, only the ones with divine ranks 16+ can change or apply traits.



However, he can define it however he likes, including defining traits.


Except that isn't actually what the spell says. The spell says you can set up an initial environment of whatever you like - within certain given caveats (e.g. no life, no buildings).

The spell itself says nothing about traits.



Besides, a pathetically easy (and completely RAW) way is to make it a vacuum atmosphere (which is specifically mentioned within the description), and allow them to suffocate, while not needing to breathe yourself.

Agreed. So long as you're not altering the traits and stick to the environment there is no incompatibility with what we are saying.

[NecroRick]

While I agree it's not explicit, your example is flawed. Are there any spells which say "You do not gain a level when you cast this spell"? If there were, you might have something of a point.


You may be right about my example being flawed, I think I got lost somewhere in the multiple double negatives of trying to come up with the reductio argument that was simple enough to explain why saying "well, the text doesn't say you can't do X" is not sufficient justification for saying "because it's not in there I can do it".

Look - are you really saying that you think that if the rules don't explicitly rule something out, that means the rules are giving you permission to do it? Or are you just disagreeing with me on general principle?

What about my example of making a demi-plane that grants you infinite XP? After all, it doesn't say you can't do that. Or one that is filled with treasure and powerful artifacts? Or one that is made of diamond dust... after all, isn't that just carbon, which is one of the most common elements in the universe...?

Surely the reasonable approach is to say that "omission is not permission"?

[WinWin]

Deities are not the only creatures that can change planar traits. What this has to do with wizards creating their own demiplane is beyond me.

Planar Bubble, Planar Breach and Planar Shepard off the top of my head. Campaign specific material provides even more examples.

also


RE environment; Detailed on page 302 DMG. Refers to Chapter 3 of the same book. Strict, deals with common environmental effects and hazards, even says that in the relevant text. Flip to page 147 on the description of planar adventures...Lo and behold, planes are described as environments that function by a differing set of natural laws than the prime material plane.