Overpowered Fighter/barbarian character!Plz help!

[Kornilios]

I am running a campaign and one of the players has a fighter/barbarian with the Spiritual Totem alternative class feature(Complete Champion) ,which gives him the pounce ability.Also he has the valorous weapon enchasment(Unapproachable East) and feats leap atk ans shock trooper.So,if he charges he does a full atk with the following dmg:(weapon dmg+str mod+3 x power atk penatly)x2.Is there any rules problem?How i can handle this,i do not want to disallow feats,but he doing massive dmg and ruins the game balance.Plz help

[Hiro Protagonest]

What level and what are the casters doing?

[BlueInc]

A wizard baleful polymorphs him into a squirrel.

Problem solved.

More seriously, if he's optimizing and the other characters aren't, tell him to either back off and let the other party members get a turn to shine, ask him to redo his feats, make him reroll completely, or ask him to optimize the other players' characters so everyone can be at his level.

[Fouredged Sword]

Concelment is his enemy. 30% miss chance will put a damper on his rampage. Also have foes with high AC and defensive fighting. If all else fails give every mook and oponent Counter Charge from the Tomb of Battle. The martial study feat lets anyone with bab +1 or better stop a charge once per battle.

[Kornilios]

What level and what are the casters doing?

He is 13level fighter/1 level barbarian.He i dwarf(so he gets +2 on saves for spells),He has that feat that uses con mon for will saves,and cloak of resistance +4,so he is quite strong in saves.

[Midnight_v]

+1 to Swift Mongoose..

It's pretty easy to help but what is the party made up of, cause there are simple "off with his head" stlye answers and there's answers that take actual thought.

Further, what kind of weapon is he wielding. If you don't want to disllow those feats (and you shouldn't for a variety of reasons that as a dm I understand) you kinda have to start taking into consideration that he
1.Wants to charge everything
2. Is gonna have to be allowed to do his trick sometimes
3. . . but not all the times.

So, don't fret too much all Dm's go through this at one point or another, its really a great excuse to level up your dm'ing skill (mechanically) funny thing I actually co-wrote the Consolidated Barbarian Handbook back in the day. It's standard barbarian stuff, no big deal.

[Kornilios]

Concelment is his enemy. 30% miss chance will put a damper on his rampage. Also have foes with high AC and defensive fighting. If all else fails give every mook and oponent Counter Charge from the Tomb of Battle. The martial study feat lets anyone with bab +1 or better stop a charge once per battle.

Nice idea,thanks.

[Hiro Protagonest]

You didn't answer my question about what the spellcasters in the party are doing.

Also, how much damage does he deal on average?

[Big Fau]

I am running a campaign and one of the players has a fighter/barbarian with the Spiritual Totem alternative class feature(Complete Champion) ,which gives him the pounce ability.Also he has the valorous weapon enchasment(Unapproachable East) and feats leap atk ans shock trooper.So,if he charges he does a full atk with the following dmg:(weapon dmg+str mod+3 x power atk penatly)x2.Is there any rules problem?How i can handle this,i do not want to disallow feats,but he doing massive dmg and ruins the game balance.Plz help

There is a tactical feat in PH2 that gives the ability to avoid attacks made with the Power Attack feat. The Grease spell also stops him from charging (as will any Difficult Terrain in his path).


However, be aware that this is his only option in combat. He is a literal one-trick pony. All you need to do is provide more enemies during an encounter, and he should be handled without him being shut down.



What you are dealing with is a standard Charger build. He is not ruining game balance, you just aren't at the same level he's playing at.

[Gorgondantess]

Foooooorcecaaaaaaaaage! Then throw an acid fog on there for good measure.

[BlueInc]

Also: Put them in situations that don't involve "I CHARGE IT!" or even combat in general: Traps, roleplay scenarios, mysteries, natural hazards, incorporeal enemies that can't be smacked, etc.

[Vladislav]

He can only solve problems that require striking creatures within range with a sharp piece of iron. Other problems, he can't solve. Now, admittedly, if all your players do in the game is move from one melee combat to another, then he genuinely is overpowered, but it doesn't have to be this way.

Simply give your party a good mix of challenges: melee opponents, flying opponents, spellcasting opponents, hidden opponents (illusions, ethereal, or simply Hide skill), social challenges, traps and other skill-based challenges, introduce difficult terrain to prevent charging, etc. Throw at them hordes of opponents so weak that one hit automatically kills an enemy even without his huge bonuses to damage.

I'm not saying you should specifically introduce things to gimp that player, because that player needs his chance to shine too. Just introduce encounters where varied tactics and skills are required, and everyone will get their chance to shine.

[Midnight_v]

If all else fails give every mook and oponent Counter Charge from the Tomb of Battle. The martial study feat lets anyone with bab +1 or better stop a charge once per battle.
That is some of the worst advice ever...
It'll seem like a heavy handed direct attack and infact it is. You can give that to a melee oriented boss or mini-boss once or twice a campaign but to give it to every mook?
See: How to lose friends, and alienate people.

What are the casters doing, by the way? Party Makeup
What is his weapon,please?
I'll give you some good advice with this issue.

edit: This


I'm not saying you should specifically introduce things to gimp that player, because that player needs his chance to shine too. Just introduce encounters where varied tactics and skills are required, and everyone will get their chance to shine

[Jude_H]

There are a few approaches you could take:

Multiple enemies, difficult terrain, obstructing environmental features (trees, corners, etc), enemies with decent aerial mobility, opponents who use ranged attacks or battlefield control tactics, enemies with more reach than him and enough attacks of opportunity to lay on the hurt, the occasional opponent with Elusive Target, underwater fights, enemies with concealment, incorporeal opponents, enemies who screw with his gear, enemies who can drop debuffs on him, enemies who can teleport out of reach, enemies who use illusions to mislead the party, maybe toss in a monster that can soak the damage when you want the party to really shiver.

EDIT: Or just ask if he can tone it down a little. That's also an option.

[HappyBlanket]

He's an ubercharger; a melee character. Making him completely and totally useless is not hard at all. In most cases, it's easy... In some cases, it's practically accidental. Just off the top of my head:

Make him fight on difficult terrain. Now he can't charge.
Make him fight flying enemies. Now he can't attack.
Place obstacles on the battlefield. Now he can't charge again.
Block LoS. Now he can't charge. Again.
Surround him with enemies at distances of precisely 10 feet. Guess what he can't do!

Incidentally, I too would like to know the builds of the other characters. An ubercharger, though capable of great damage, is not that fantastic compared to most full casters.

Further, as has been said, please don't shut him down completely. Just because he's been overshadowing the rest of the group doesn't mean the rest of the group should be overshadowing him.

[Veyr]

Charging is a very limited combat ability. He's put all his eggs in one basket: he'd better be good at it. Just design your encounters with the fact that if he gets to charge someone, he almost definitely will kill it — which doesn't mean "never let him charge". He's good at one thing, he deserves to get to do that thing sometimes. It just can't completely solve an encounter.

A ledge with archers on top, and some melee guys below? He can take out the lower ones, but he'll need help or someone else to handle the archers. Etc.

[Midnight_v]

:add to that:
Swarms
Oozes

Any crature with a Longer natural reach than him and improved grap, trip, awesome blow
knockback, or standstill, Improved disarm, (ooh spiked chain!)

Nothing like seeing the badass melee dude get mauled occasionally.
As long as we're rattling off quick fixes.


He's an ubercharger; a melee character. Making him completely and totally useless is not hard at all
He's not an "ubercharer" which is a specific build with threads and the such about it UBERCHARGING INVOLVES A MOUNT.... He's just a basic charger.
:wink:

[Big Fau]

He's an ubercharger;

Negative, he is a mere Charger. The Ubercharger is a specific build designed to use Mounted Combat, Leap Attack, Pounce, a Valorous Lance, and the normal Shock Trooper to get a huge amount of damage (by leaping from your mount and getting a full attack as you fall).


Chargers are well within the rules. Uberchargers require the DM to rule that Leap Attack applies even after you have landed, and that you still get the Mounted Combat bonuses after dismounting.


Edit: Ninja'ed, but I have a longer explanation.

[Deadlykire]

The build is designed for pure damage. He should be trading ac to get that damage. A higher AC and HP also helps. Charger builds also only excel at taking down 1 target at a time. Multiple opponents hinders them some. Terrain could also be used as a counter. Leap Attack I believe states the the bonus is only gained if the 10' jump is at the end of the charge (it is one of the feats). Having difficult terrain in the area impedes everyone unless they are built to handle it.

Speaking with the player may also help. Charger builds are also heavy combat focused so reducing combat may help overall game balance. Without a knowledge of the group make up it is hard to suggest a counter.

Id default to talking with the player and working something out.

[Keld Denar]

The lynchpin here is Shocktrooper. Just ban that one feat. I do. Without Shocktrooper, the player has to decide how much to PA for (instead of just PAing for full every time). It adds a lot of risk vs reward math to playing the character, and also allows you to control him a bit better. Charging with his full BAB + Str + other bonuses, he can pretty much hit anything in the MM one a 2+. If you take away the +14 to hit he gets from Shocktroopering for full, all of a sudden he has to choose between laying it all out and possibly missing (especially on iteratives), or being more conservative and pumping out less damage.

Thats it. Talk to the player out of game. Tell him that the mechanics behind Shocktrooper are not balanced around the style game you are running. Shocktrooper, even though its "just damage" is still on the high end of the optimization scale and nothing else really compares to it. The player should be able to see this and accept your request. If he doesn't, well, that's kinda a jerky thing to do. You ARE the DM after all. Its not like you are taking away ALL of his toys, just the one that unbalances the whole schtick.

If that fails, simply swarm him. Shocktrooper is gonna lower his AC into the gutter. Space the foes out, and when he charges one, have 4-5 others full attack him with full PA (they won't even need Shocktrooper themselves, his AC will be garbage). They'll probably kill him, or at least drop him REALLY low on HP and make him rethink the tactic a bit before dropping his AC that low again.

EDIT: Funny story. Enfeeble/Exhaust him. If Ray of Enfeeblement drops his Str bonus down to 12 or less, it turns off his access to the Power Attack feat, which in turn shuts off every feat derived from it, like Improved Bullrush AND SHOCKTROOPER. Exhausted characters can't run or charge. You guys are level 14, so an enemy caster with Waves of Exhaustion + Quickened Ray of Enfeeblement will asign a 1d6+11 Str penalty to the guy, no save, and would be a perfectly valid encounter.

[Kornilios]

You didn't answer my question about what the spellcasters in the party are doing.

Also, how much damage does he deal on average?
The cleric is buffing(usually him) and she heals the party and the wizard is an evoker and uses mostly evocation spells.
He is using jovar+2 flaming(2d6 dmg,18-20 crit that becomes 15-20 with imporved crit, from Planar Handbook),he has 26 str,+4 dmg from greater weapon spec.So (2d6+15+3x power atk penatly+1d6)x2.He has 3 atks but 3 times per day he uses haste from a weapon enchasment and 1 per 4 atks is crit threat.

[Midnight_v]

Banning shocktrooper is more terrible advice and is again the "Off with his head" answer that the op initially proposed he was trying to avoid.
Its just bad dm'ing in many ways, and it never stops, you're going into 4th level spells mostly likely and then its, flying + Black tentcles... or whatever. Better to just learn to deal with the things you've not encountered so you know you can at least.

Now the
swarm him method is interesting.
Cause beating him up after he sinks his ac will work till he picks up robilars gambit or something but by then its all about magic so its not the worry it has been.

Trust me, have a big monster maul his ass when he tries to charge with no ac improved grap is great for that, awesome blow is funny also. , infact you've got enough info in this thread to keep that undercontrol without resorting to building resentment.
You got many options, now that your gun is loaded with options take a couple shots. "at least now you decide who lives or dies and when" Bwahaha.


He is using jovar+2 flaming(2d6 dmg,18-20 crit that becomes 15-20 with imporved crit, from Planar Handbook),he has 26 str,+4 dmg from greater weapon spec.So (2d6+15+3x power atk penatly+1d6)x2.He has 3 atks but 3 times per day he uses haste from a weapon enchasment and 1 per 4 atks is crit threat.
Dude thats what I was hoping!
Okay so he doesn't have reach and its you're friend!

[Deadlykire]

There are also rules for setting against a charge. Readied actions and contigent spells may also work.

Having the opponents set a reached weapon against the charge I believe let's you combat part of the problem. I'm not sure if it only works againts a mounted charge though. If not large opponents with a reach weapon might work. It'll force him to make a longer jump at least (with a higher DC).

[Grendus]

I second the "vary up your battles" suggestion. Chargers are pretty good for boss battles, great for killing small groups of enemies, but are crippled by level 1 spells (seriously, Grease will ruin his day). Shuffle the board a little, switch the battle to a mook hoard, have a spellcaster in the air (he did remember to carry some javelins... right?), some rough terrain, maybe some pillars (not all at once, but you get the idea). Have enemies take total defense, pit him against a conjurer with Abrupt Jaunt, throw a martial adept at him, have enemies set their own reach weapons against charge, etc. There are plenty of ways to invalidate his trick, use a few sparingly and he becomes a very useful, but very controllable, party member.

[Keld Denar]

Banning shocktrooper is more terrible advice and is again the "Off with his head" answer that the op initially proposed he was trying to avoid.

Nope. Lots of people regularly ban a lot of things. Incantatrix, Planar Shepherds, Gate, Affinity Field, etc. Sometimes you accidentally let something into the game that you didn't fully understand the implications of. Instead of making your job that much harder, you simply remove the major part of the combo. Its still a good combo, and can deal a lot of damage (Leap Attack + Valorous Weapon is a LOT of damage), it just takes away the part where there is almost no risk for full PAing.

Bad DMing would be taking away all of the players options without telling them. If you were a Shocktrooper charger, and EVERY foe you faught had Martial Study(Counter Charge), Elusive Target, or similar ways of completely negating your trick, well, you feel like you just wasted some of your class features. It would be the same if you were playing a TWFing rogue, didn't get any wands as loot, and faught only constructs, undead, and plants. Its passive aggressive, and will probably lead to a lot of built up hostility both in and out of game.

No. The best solution is to handle it like mature adults. "Hey Joe, I didn't realize it when I allowed you to take Shocktrooper, but its really making it hard for me to balance encounters to challenge you guys. It already takes me a bunch of time to set up the game, and I just don't know how I can keep challenging you guys in a meaningful way in combat. Would you mind terribly if we changed out Shocktrooper for some other feat? It would really make my life a lot easier".

If you asked like that, and the guy says "no, I have my toys and I want to play with them and you are a stupid doo doo head for trying to take them away", well...yea, I think that pretty much explains itself.

[HappyBlanket]

He's not an "ubercharer" which is a specific build with threads and the such about it UBERCHARGING INVOLVES A MOUNT.... He's just a basic charger.
:wink:
Negative, he is a mere Charger. The Ubercharger is a specific build designed to use Mounted Combat, Leap Attack, Pounce, a Valorous Lance, and the normal Shock Trooper to get a huge amount of damage (by leaping from your mount and getting a full attack as you fall).Duly noted :smallsmile:
The cleric is buffing(usually him) and she heals the party and the wizard is an evoker and uses mostly evocation spells.
He is using jovar+2 flaming(2d6 dmg,18-20 crit that becomes 15-20 with imporved crit, from Planar Handbook),he has 26 str,+4 dmg from greater weapon spec.So (2d6+15+3x power atk penatly+1d6)x2.He has 3 atks but 3 times per day he uses haste from a weapon enchasment and 1 per 4 atks is crit threat.We were asking for the builds of the other party members, but that's not important anymore. We get the general idea; Clerics and Wizards are usually considered stronger and more versatile than Fighters could ever be, but clearly you aren't approaching that level of optimization. Especially if you've got an Evoker Wizard.

You said the Cleric is buffing him? Isn't that kinda weird though? If the other players are having their gaming experience ruined by the clearly over powered Charger, wouldn't it make sense for the Cleric to leave the Fighter to his own devices? Actually, we should've asked this earlier; have the other players complained about the Fighter?

Keld Denar's advice is good, but it's something of a last resort. Still, it's an option.

[McSmack]

Like others have said. He's built around the concept of charging, so don't steal all his thunder.

However like others have said there are a few good ways to lessen the impact of his charging.

Add more (weaker) mobs. Chargers get their kicks from dealing lots of damage and taking out lots of mobs. Nothing wrong with that. Giving them a few weaker mobs to chew through will make them happy while allowing the rest of the party to focus on things that can't be solved that way.

For boss fights and encounters like that, smart villans will have studied their opponents enough to limit tricks like this. Mirror Image, Displacement, Blink and the like play havoc with a charger. There are lots of ways to limit a charger such as putting obstacles/difficult terrain in the way.

Throw in some flying encounters or fights where he has to clear an obstacle before he can get into a position to charge. It'll make the battle more rewarding if he has to work for that charge attack.

[excruciarch]

Here's what my DM made out of my FB's Supreme P. Atk + Leap Atk:
He treated one to four proportion of the supreme p. atk as a x4 multiplier and stacked it with x3 Leap atk bonus by multiplier stacking rules. Rendering usage of Leap atk pretty much pointless since the single attack with -18BAB made like 2d6+100 dmg. But the character still made like 300+ dmg per full attack to any low-AC foe.
----------------------------------
Make a 14 lvl Master of many forms villain. He can turn into a Gargantuan Dragon. That means some crazy AC, so your barbarian will have like 95% miss chance.
Any high-AC build will do the trick. Mind the Improved combat expertise feat from the Complete Warrior. It allows to trade all your BAB for AC. (Just to piss your barbarian off).

[Midnight_v]

Banning shocktrooper is more terrible advice and is again the "Off with his head" answer that the op initially proposed he was trying to avoid
Uhm...

From the Op

How i can handle this, I do not want to disallow feats


Lots of people regularly ban a lot of things. Incantatrix, Planar Shepherds, Gate, Affinity Field, etc
v.

Shocktrooper.
Not the same thing. As you can tell by the thread, there's a huge list of things to be done about so simple a trick and easily, and creatively dealt with, while not saying "No toys".
While those things are different. . . as everyone else here knows. So you know not to get drug into a fallacious or leading argument.
I'll just move on.


Bad DMing would be taking away all of the players options without telling them. If you were a Shocktrooper charger, and EVERY foe you faught had Martial Study(Counter Charge), Elusive Target, or similar ways of completely negating your trick, well, you feel like you just wasted some of your class features
Really thats what you want to avoid, but the thing about the ban hammer method is 1. No one really likes that when they're playing with friends.
2. There really are good ways of dealing with this particular problem.
Lastly, soon there's going to be a lot more things shortly that test someone mechanically as a dm.
This is one of the easier ones to deal with. Omg, reach weapons, and trip or disarm for the win, but really the list of things to do is so long obviously banning is needless.

[Trixie]

Nope. Lots of people regularly ban a lot of things. Incantatrix, Planar Shepherds, Gate, Affinity Field, etc.

So, if someone bans self-propelled artillery piece, he should also ban pocket knives? :smallconfused:

...Well, unless you suggest the above are in any way comparable to slight damage boost.


Bad DMing would be taking away all of the players options without telling them. If you were a Shocktrooper charger, and EVERY foe you faught had Martial Study(Counter Charge), Elusive Target, or similar ways of completely negating your trick, well, you feel like you just wasted some of your class features. It would be the same if you were playing a TWFing rogue, didn't get any wands as loot, and faught only constructs, undead, and plants. Its passive aggressive, and will probably lead to a lot of built up hostility both in and out of game.

...as opposed to taking the options away with telling them? Your proposition doesn't differ from "Hey Joe, would you mind terribly if I made everyone countercharger?", IMHO. Not at all. In fact, it's worse, as countercharging might fail from time to time.

Midnight is completely right here, IMHO.

[Karoht]

Charges typically have to occur in a straight line, until he has acrobatic charge or other similar charge feats.

Trees. Pillars. Tents. Fire.

Don't forget spells like Web, Entangle, Grease, and anything that alters terrain (lots of Druid spells here such as Stonecall) or obscures/blocks line of sight.

[Kornilios]

You said the Cleric is buffing him? Isn't that kinda weird though? If the other players are having their gaming experience ruined by the clearly over powered Charger, wouldn't it make sense for the Cleric to leave the Fighter to his own devices? Actually, we should've asked this earlier; have the other players complained about the Fighter?.

The cleric now learns the game rules,so she is just saying "yes" to whatever others say.Actually the fighter has a big influence in her spell list.The wizard has a little competition with the fighter,but nothing more.The last member of the party is a rogue,who doesn't care so much about combat.Noone is complaining,but they argree that that fighter is unbalanced(exept from the fighter ofcourse).

[Trixie]

The cleric now learns the game rules,so she is just saying "yes" to whatever others say.Actually the fighter has a big influence in her spell list.The wizard has a little competition with the fighter,but nothing more.The last member of the party is a rogue,who doesn't care so much about combat.Noone is complaining,but they argree that that fighter is unbalanced(exept from the fighter ofcourse).

Given that party, properly built Expert would be imbalanced, IMHO...

[gallagher]

also, think about his skill set. a high level fighter will have trouble with several lower level rogues who are hiding (that he can not find), flanking (which he cannot prevent) and sneak attacking (which he can not handle)

also, he is a fighter. he probably doesnt have that high of DEX, and doesnt have room for improved initiative. if there are already guys in his face, he cant charge.

[Keld Denar]

But removing Shocktrooper isn't "off with the head". The character is still a charger. The character can still do rediculous amounts of damage. It just keeps the intended risk vs reward mechanism in the calculations. As it stands, there is virtually NO drawback to NOT PAing for full. That is bad. It makes it really hard to control damage via AC, since all of the characters attacks are at maximum potency despite he massive spike in potential damage. Its really not balanced. Taking Shocktrooper away actually makes the character more interesting and diverse, since the gap between charging and not charging will be significantly smaller and the character won't feel he has to charge everything in order to get the maximum result (which is more than the character at that ECL should be dealing anyway).

So yea, I stand by my statement. It is removing something from the character, but the character is still a charger and still capable of dealing massive damage against low AC targets. As a DM, its a lot easier to throw in a few low AC opponents to allow the player to full PA Leap Attack things (oozes make great damage sponges for this, and tend to have REALLY low ACs but tons of HP) than it is to make half of the foes resistant or immune to the trick so the character simply doesn't power through all of your challenges.

Again, the most mature option in this case is NOT to play the passive aggressive card and screw with the character intentionally. A simple discussion out of game should solve the problem in a much more civil way.

[Big Fau]

The cleric now learns the game rules,so she is just saying "yes" to whatever others say.Actually the fighter has a big influence in her spell list.The wizard has a little competition with the fighter,but nothing more.The last member of the party is a rogue,who doesn't care so much about combat.Noone is complaining,but they argree that that fighter is unbalanced(exept from the fighter ofcourse).

The only one even focused on combat (aside from the Fighter) is the Wizard. They really don't have any right to complain about the Fighter doing his job.

[Vladislav]

I'd still be inclined to try the "varied encounters" strategy before taking anything away from the character.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Given that party, properly built Expert would be imbalanced, IMHO...

Yep. Iaijitsu focus, quickrazor... and that's not even getting into UMD.

[JaronK]

This guy solves combat encounters like the Rogue solves traps. Considering the Rogue doesn't even want to be doing combat and the Cleric could care less what you're up to, why not just have only about a quarter of the encounters be combat? Have you considered situations where stealth and intrigue and talking and puzzle solving and roleplay are relevant instead?

Besides, this guy can only run up and hit things. Any encounter where running up and hitting things doesn't solve it makes him worthless. Consider having encounters where there's one or two big guys spaced out a bit with archery support... if he charges he can kill one guy but the archers will seriously wound him, so he'll need to think tactically to get the job done.

JaronK

[HappyBlanket]

The cleric now learns the game rules,so she is just saying "yes" to whatever others say.Actually the fighter has a big influence in her spell list.The wizard has a little competition with the fighter,but nothing more.The last member of the party is a rogue,who doesn't care so much about combat.Noone is complaining,but they argree that that fighter is unbalanced(exept from the fighter ofcourse).

Ah. Fighter, Wizard, Cleric, and Rogue. The Rogue doesn't fight, the Wizard is trying to do direct damage, the Cleric isn't a deity on the Material Plane, and the Fighter is outshining them all. Dear oh dear. So young, so innocent.

Trixie is only somewhat correct, but that's not the point. But yeah. An optimized Expert would slaughter this party, and would have more versatility too, probably. But you guys aren't optimizers, and that's perfectly fine.

How is it that they say the Fighter is unbalanced without making it a complaint, btw?

[Talya]

He is 13level fighter/1 level barbarian.He i dwarf(so he gets +2 on saves for spells),He has that feat that uses con mon for will saves,and cloak of resistance +4,so he is quite strong in saves.

At 14th level, an ubercharger should no longer seem dominant. I'm assuming your party has no druid, wizard, cleric, archivist, or artificer?

Anyway, terrain can stop charging flat, as can enemies making good use of cover.

[excruciarch]

There are always good ways of making the game interesting for all of your PCs (combat-wise or roleplay-wise). Just let each one of them feel useful by optimizing your encounters. (not just 5 goblins per encounter to be easily killed by the fighter alone). They must work as a team and win by cooperating and using all their abilities to their advantage.

At 14th level, an ubercharger should no longer seem dominant.
If this ubercharger is not a deathless raving Frenzied Berserker. Which is not the case though. Now I'm interested in what classes his party consist of.

[Drynwyn]

First of all, he probably got the idea fro the 1d4chan Tarrasque page, which has a build quite similar to this.
Secondly, in terms of a solution, I wup l advise talking to the player about jis build. If he's a reasonable person, he'll agree to change something.

[Big Fau]

At 14th level, an ubercharger should no longer seem dominant. I'm assuming your party has no druid, wizard, cleric, archivist, or artificer?

They have a novice Healbot Cleric and a Blaster Wizard, neither of which sound very optimized (we really do need to see their average spell lists).


The Fighter, according to the OP, has been helping the Cleric select buffs, and that the Cleric has been casting them on the Fighter. At least the Cleric is getting something right...

[HappyBlanket]

First of all, he probably got the idea fro the 1d4chan Tarrasque page, which has a build quite similar to this.
Secondly, in terms of a solution, I wup l advise talking to the player about jis build. If he's a reasonable person, he'll agree to change something.

It's a build that's very well known. More so than the Mailman, Batman Wizard, etc, etc. Slightly less than Druids though. It even has it's own name (which I recently learned isn't Ubercharger).

...There's a good chance he asked for the build on these forums, actually. If he's picking the Cleric's spells, and she's still not over-powering him, he's probably a novice.

[MeeposFire]

It's a build that's very well known. More so than the Mailman, Batman Wizard, etc, etc. Slightly less than Druids though. It even has it's own name (which I recently learned isn't Ubercharger).

...There's a good chance he asked for the build on these forums, actually.

Doubt he asked (or if he did he ignored the advice) as he has way more fighter levels thn the people on this board are comfortable with.

[Keld Denar]

Secondly, in terms of a solution, I wup l advise talking to the player about jis build. If he's a reasonable person, he'll agree to change something.

This is what I've suggested from the start. The simplest thing to change in this case, is to remove Shocktrooper. Without that, he's still a charger, just one with a sufficient risk vs reward mechanism.

I won't mislead anyone. I don't like Shocktrooper. At all. I ban it in games just the same as Planar Shepherd. I don't buy the fact that "melee need it to stay relevant". Thats what ToB is for. Shocktrooper makes a character rediculously 1 dimensional because its so good that all other options pale beside it. Plus, there is a line between "enough damage" and "too much damage". As Person_Man often says, "there is a point where you are dealing enough damage and you don't need to focus on damage anymore. If you do, enemies will simply have more HP, or there will be more of them, or some other work around". Removing Shocktrooper isn't gonna neuter this character. Its gonna tone it down to a level more online with the rest of the party.

Plus, contrary to popular belief, it IS possible to be "overpowered" as a non-caster at high levels. The OPs player is proof to that. Its not overpowered by the standards that most of us see here, but it is stronger than what the DM is capable of handling. As a DM, if you can't handle something, it is reasonable to disallow it, the same reason why almost nobody plays with Taint. If the player, ANY player, is reliably dealing enough damage to kill an even or +1 CR foe in one round, thats probably too much damage.

Again, talking to the player out of game is a WAY better solution that passive aggressively nerfing his character at most opportunities. That'll just breed bitterness and resent.

EDIT: If we want to get Tiers into it, just because the OP's player's character is T5ish, doesn't mean he's not powerful. It means he's 1 dimensional. As people on this forum know, its possible to get charging damage on a T5 character up in the 5 digit range without too much effort. That doesn't make it right. And just because the T1 casters aren't winning the game as a standard action doesn't make them wrong. People need to get over the belief that T1 = always overpowered and T5 = horribly unplayably bad. That isn't the point of the Tier system. You can "break" a commoner for pete's sake. The point of the system is versatility and potential power. The OP's player found the route on a T5 character that makes it stronger than the DM can handle. Just because its T5 doesn't make it "ok".

[Flickerdart]

There are pretty much only two viable melee strategies, and he's playing one of them. Telling him "no, you can't be effective" is not going to make him especially happy.

If you persist in throwing melee combat his way, I would advise increasing the number of targets. He may charge one, and it might die, but now the rest have closed in with the party who sucks at melee combat and are having a field day. Make sure he understands this (maybe the enemies are shouting commands among themselves) so that he considers staying back to defend them.

[HappyBlanket]

Doubt he asked (or if he did he ignored the advice) as he has way more fighter levels thn the people on this board are comfortable with.

Point. I was just thinking about a few threads that suggested the build to low optimization groups xD

[herrhauptmann]

There are also rules for setting against a charge. Readied actions and contigent spells may also work.

Having the opponents set a reached weapon against the charge I believe let's you combat part of the problem. I'm not sure if it only works againts a mounted charge though. If not large opponents with a reach weapon might work. It'll force him to make a longer jump at least (with a higher DC).
Suddenly, all the enemies own a 1400gp item out of the Magic Item Compendium. The Steadfast boots. Any of them holding a weapon in two hands is suddenly automatically set against the charge, and get to deal double damage. So they'll get to hit him for double damage, 95% of the time, before he gets close enough to so much as sneeze on them. And they can do this without wasting an action to set against the charge.


Doubt he asked (or if he did he ignored the advice) as he has way more fighter levels thn the people on this board are comfortable with.
+1. I think normal advice is to go up to 6 with a dungeoncrasher ACF. 4 if you really need an extra feat. And if not either of those, then just 2 levels of fighter.

Here's what my DM made out of my FB's Supreme P. Atk + Leap Atk:
He treated one to four proportion of the supreme p. atk as a x4 multiplier and stacked it with x3 Leap atk bonus by multiplier stacking rules. Rendering usage of Leap atk pretty much pointless since the single attack with -18BAB made like 2d6+100 dmg. But the character still made like 300+ dmg per full attack to any low-AC foe.

I might be reading you wrong, but are you saying that you stacked a x4 and x3 for a total x7? If so, the stacking rules don't work that way in 3.5. x4 and x3 would be a total x6. Comes up most often in builds that lots and lots of crits...

It sounds like he's helping the cleric use spells that are good at buffing. Which is good. Even a healbot cleric doesn't need to actually prepare his healing spells.
However, he really shouldn't be telling the cleric which spells to prepare, and how to use them. That could be part of what's bothering the cleric player.

[MeeposFire]

Point. I was just thinking about a few threads that suggested the build to low optimization groups xD

It wouldn't surprise me that he may have read a lot of those discussions. Either that or he noticed the synergy. Charging bonuses are relatively easy to see optimization, much easier to see than the stuff casters can do.

[ericgrau]

I am running a campaign and one of the players has a fighter/barbarian with the Spiritual Totem alternative class feature(Complete Champion) ,which gives him the pounce ability.Also he has the valorous weapon enchasment(Unapproachable East) and feats leap atk ans shock trooper.So,if he charges he does a full atk with the following dmg:(weapon dmg+str mod+3 x power atk penatly)x2.Is there any rules problem?How i can handle this,i do not want to disallow feats,but he doing massive dmg and ruins the game balance.Plz help

"Wizards are worse" and "a gazillion damage isn't OP, just stop him from doing the only thing his class can do" out of the way? Good.

There may be worse things in a high optimization setting, but what matters here is what qualifies as too much for your gaming group. The two red flags I see here are pounce and shock trooper. If other players in your group don't use these, I wouldn't feel bad about banning them. Seriously it's part of the maybe 1% of all options, which are all over the internet and yet you have to dig in the middle of a bunch of mediocre feats, find one-third of a single feat and then exploit that to death as you'll notice that 1/3 of the feat beats all the feats around it put together. Valorous isn't so bad, just remember in D&D math that x2x2x2 = x4 not x8 (1+3x(2-1)=4). Plus don't forget his mount can be attacked too. Leap attack is kind of strong but if you allow a lot of things I'm guessing it's not too much for your gaming group.

EDIT: @PollyOliver V. Ya that's what I mean. Making fights that effectively ban his character concept that he's still using is worse than banning an ability or two. These are very rare and way over the top so I wouldn't feel bad about banning them. Hence why I also picked out the other things which should be left alone.

[excruciarch]

I might be reading you wrong, but are you saying that you stacked a x4 and x3 for a total x7? If so, the stacking rules don't work that way in 3.5. x4 and x3 would be a total x6. Comes up most often in builds that lots and lots of crits...

It resulted in x6, he stacked them by the rules. And by default supreme patk and leap atk gives you BAB_traded*12 dmg (-20 BAB comes out as an outstanding +240 damage bonus)

[PollyOliver]

Banning shocktrooper is the quick and dirty choice. (I know you don't want to do it, but it's an option if all else fails, and you can do it civilly as long as your player is mature). It gets it done, and he still gets triple damage on his charges--he just has the think more tactically about when to power attack.

The less quick, less dirty choice is to, as someone mentioned above make him make a tactical decision with respect to shock trooper. Not every single combat--that would effectively be the same as banning it. But a certain amount of the time, there should be another enemy (or swarm of minor enemies) that will make him pay if he power attacks for full off his AC. Maybe he won't power attack for as much, maybe he will and will assign part of the penalty to his attack roll, maybe he will just do it and take the hits. It'll be a tradeoff, and it will to an extent be a power hit, but it will be his tradeoff to make.

The suggestions about elusive target, counter charge, enemies with reach and flight, set spears and readied actions, and difficult terrain are all good ones, and in my opinion varied terrain and smart enemies (within reason) make fights more interesting anyway. Just be careful that you don't use one of these options every single time. He's got one trick and he needs a chance to use it, or you've effectively done worse than ban the feats involved.

[Larpus]

Well, he doesn't have to ban anything (for now), you can just get your nerf bat and hit him hard (but making sense in context), I mean, if he is such a powerful and highlevel warrior, he must be famous as hell.

And everyone who is famous as hell has his fair amount of hatemail, so I wouldn't find it hard to believe that somewhere an evil [insert class here] sees him as standing on his way for [insert goal here] and plans to nerf him before putting his plan into motion.

So not only will he be considerably weaker now, but also will force the rest of the party to step up and learn to do things without him 'cus, let's face it, I bet they depend on him too much, to the point that the player might feel more important than he really is.

[excruciarch]

There is one logical way of resolving the entire Shock Trooper problem:
Don't allow your barbarian to substitute base 10 AC, only (dex_mod + armour_bonus) - rage penalty if any. Don't allow him to substitute natural or deflection bonus either, it can be logically explained and i think he'll agree.

[ImperatorK]

There is one logical way of resolving the entire Shock Trooper problem:
Don't allow your barbarian to substitute base 10 AC, only (dex_mod + armour_bonus) - rage penalty if any. Don't allow him to substitute natural or deflection bonus either, it can be logically explained and i think he'll agree.
That does not fix the issue. He still can change BaB to dmg. It doesn't matter how much AC and what type of AC it is. The BaB is what matters.

[excruciarch]

That does not fix the issue. He still can change BaB to dmg. It doesn't matter how much AC and what type of AC it is. The BaB is what matters.
He can substitute BAB all right and decrease his chance to hit (and this can be nerfed by interpreting the whole power atk bonus as a dmg multiplier). All 14 points of BAB if he wants, godspeed. But just don't allow to substitute more than (dex_bonus+armour_bonus) - rage penalty from AC. If it is 8, he can substitute 8 and no more.

[Raendyn]

Valorous doubles the weapon dmg. not the whole attack...
so the formula is (weapon dmg x2 + str mod x1.5 + PowAtt x3)

Also, rough terrain/boulders/trees don't allow a charm

Also, celerity=> ray of exaustion, now the barbarian can't charge, his current charge just stoped, he also lost his action.

Flyers? spears? mirror images? pit traps? disarm attacks? high AC opponents? counter attacks? forcecage hags?

Really there are so many ways....

[Iferus]

A charger can be stopped by

a) never being within range (far away, flying or otherwise unreachable)
b) not meeting the conditions for a charge (having barricades in the line of charge, rough terrain, standing next to him)
c) employing defenses other than AC (miss chance, displacement, illusions)


Allow him to use his great abilities sometimes, but not always. Allow him to feel powerful occasionally.

[excruciarch]

The whole point in abusing Shock Trooper feat is to sacrifice your AC for your BAB to be left intact. BUT:
1. You can't turn off magical effects granting you AC. Why allow substitute bonus granted by them?
2. You can't rip off your hard skin granting you AC bonus. Why allow substitute this bonus?
3. Base AC- is something granted to you by default. Something you have always and can't substitute willingly. (that's your kidneys, not some skill level represented via BAB). Why allow substitute this bonus?
You can willingly throw your dex bonus away by not caring much bout being hit, (or being unable to use it while charging). You can willingly not use your shield, you can willingly throw your armour bonus away by not caring where exactly the foe will hit. (or being unable to predict that while charging).
That would be my reasoning for nerfing shock trooper.
So: full BAB or (dex_mod+armour_bonus) - rage penalty?

[Hiro Protagonest]

The whole point in abusing Shock Trooper feat is to sacrifice your AC for your BAB to be left intact. BUT:
1. You can't turn off magical effects granting you AC. Why allow substitute bonus granted by them?
2. You can't rip off your hard skin granting you AC bonus. Why allow substitute this bonus?
3. Base AC- is something granted to you by default. Something you have always and can't substitute willingly. (that's your kidneys, not some skill level represented via BAB). Why allow substitute this bonus?
You can willingly throw your dex bonus away by not caring much bout being hit, (or being unable to use it while charging). You can willingly not use your shield, you can willingly throw your armour bonus away by not caring where exactly the foe will hit. (or being unable to predict that while charging).
That would be my reasoning for nerfing shock trooper.
So: full BAB or (dex_mod+armour_bonus) - rage penalty?

That third point doesn't make sense, because dex penalties and size modifiers can bring your AC below 10, so it's not like "you always have to have at least 10 AC!".

[excruciarch]

That third point doesn't make sense, because dex penalties and size modifiers can bring your AC below 10, so it's not like "you always have to have at least 10 AC!".
That's natural occurrence. It's like an intensive protein consumption causing kidneys to work in an unusual mode. You can't make your kidneys work in an unusual way directly, you can by consuming some stuff they'll have trouble filtering. (Rage, Frenzy, going up a size category etc)
I perfectly know it, since my barbarian/FB character sometimes had 4 to 6 AC. I somewhat hoped my point will be understood as is without additional explaining.

[Hiro Protagonest]

That's natural occurrence. It's like an intensive protein consumption causing kidneys to work in an unusual mode. You can't make your kidneys work in an unusual way directly, you can by consuming some stuff they'll have trouble filtering. (Rage, Frenzy, going up a size category etc)
I perfectly know it, since my barbarian/FB character sometimes had 4 to 6 AC. I somewhat hoped my point will be understood as is without additional explaining.

What the heck do kidneys have to do with this?

Using shock trooper to go below the ten base AC is called "leaving yourself in a horrible defensive position".

[excruciarch]

What the heck do kidneys have to do with this?

Using shock trooper to go below the ten base AC is called "leaving yourself in a horrible defensive position".

Ever heard of thingies like metaphors and analogies?
PS
IMO you can't use base AC because it's something granted by your being, size, flesh and bones, skin. You can't throw that away without failing fort. check vs disintegrate spell. :D
PSS
I'm all against nerfing. The DM should balance the game out, not limit players just because he finds the process tiresome or time-consuming or whatever he can find it.

[kardar233]

Shock Trooper allows swapping one trade-off (chance to hit versus damage) for another (armor versus damage). I like the idea of making that trade-off apparent.

Make your monsters fight a bit more tactically. If he charges one, then two more will be in position to hit him in all of his AC 4 glory. If it's a trade-off, make it a damn trade-off.

[Teron]

The cleric is buffing(usually him) and she heals the party and the wizard is an evoker and uses mostly evocation spells.
He is using jovar+2 flaming(2d6 dmg,18-20 crit that becomes 15-20 with imporved crit, from Planar Handbook),he has 26 str,+4 dmg from greater weapon spec.So (2d6+15+3x power atk penatly+1d6)x2.He has 3 atks but 3 times per day he uses haste from a weapon enchasment and 1 per 4 atks is crit threat.
So, basically, the fighter is dealing two characters' worth of damage because another character is almost entirely focused on making him more effective instead of attacking herself? It seems to me there's nothing wrong with this situation as long as the cleric is happy with her role.

[erikun]

I'm not convinced that there is actually a problem. Oh, sure, the DM things there is a problem because the party easily gets through combat encounters, but does the party think so? The cleric is helping the fighter and the rogue doesn't even want to fight.

Perhaps the first thing to do would be look at what the other characters can do, and tailor encounters for them as well? Large numbers of mooks can't be easily charged, but they can be dealt with by a Fireball. Low-HP but dangerous flyers are made for the wizard to knock out of the sky, especially ones relying of flying magic - Dispels, away! Undead, especially ghosts and shadows, aren't that scared of a charger as they are of someone with turning.

If you really want to challange the fighter: Anything with improved grapple, especially two of them standing nearby. Your fighter attacks and kills one giant, then the other grabs him with his 10 AC. (Just make sure they are standing at least 10' apart.) Displacement, of any form, ruins his ability to hit a target. And as mentioned before, large numbers of weak creatures aren't threatened as much by a fighter lacking Cleave.

If you must ban something, then removing Shock Trooper means he must deal with the attack roll penalty. He can still deal lots of damage, but not with a very good chance to hit something.


(weapon dmg+str mod+3 x power atk penatly)x2.
Where does the x2 factor in?

[Raendyn]

Where does the x2 factor in?

Valorous enchantment says weapon dmg x 2 . somehow they interpretent that as the whole attack get x2....

Or is it me getting something wrong?

[excruciarch]

Valorous enchantment says weapon dmg x 2 . somehow they interpretent that as the whole attack get x2....

Or is it me getting something wrong?

Valorous: A valorous weapon allows its wielder to make powerful charge attacks. When used in a charge, the valorous weapon deals double damage, much like a mounted warrior with the Spirited Charge feat. More than one doubling of damage increases the damage multiple by one per additional doubling, so double-double damage is triple damage, tripledouble damage is quadruple damage, and so on.

Yep, you are right. Only the weapon itself gets this bonus. By RAW. (And to think... too much of a bonus for +1 market price)
But still can be easily interpreted otherwise.

[Hiro Protagonest]

IMO you can't use base AC because it's something granted by your being, size, flesh and bones, skin. You can't throw that away without failing fort. check vs disintegrate spell. :D

Oh? So now having a dexterity of below ten means you have a disfigurement? I always thought that meant you're just slow to react.

[herrhauptmann]

Oh? So now having a dexterity of below ten means you have a disfigurement? I always thought that meant you're just slow to react.

I always figured it was just a little clumsier than average. Remember, 10-11 is supposed to be the human norm. 8 Dex could be the kid in lab who keeps dropping beakers and test tubes.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I always figured it was just a little clumsier than average. Remember, 10-11 is supposed to be the human norm. 8 Dex could be the kid in lab who keeps dropping beakers and test tubes.

Yeah, it's supposed to be clumsiness and reaction speed, not disfigurement.

[excruciarch]

Yeah, it's supposed to be clumsiness and reaction speed, not disfigurement.
But it is in your nature and you can't help it. Train hard and overcome it (by spending 4n points), or use something that'll temporarily (potion) or permanently (wishes) improve the situation.
This setback is a part of your clumsy being. You're not as you are just because you want to. Mostly, at least. Self-improvement is hard work.
PS
So you can't immediately change the core of your being by will alone. Well, if you are not playing Planescape and your mental stats like maxed out. =)
PPS
And game-wise you don't lose base AC even when unconscious (armour bonus as well). How come you can lose your base AC willingly? If I were your DM and we argued like that I would have treated your character with base AC substituted as a prone one or even helpless. =)

[erikun]

I believe the point was that a character's base AC is not "something granted by your being" that can't be lost without "without failing fort. check vs disintegrate spell". It is entirely possible to drop below the base 10 AC through entirely ordinary means, such as low dexterity or being prone.

[excruciarch]

I believe the point was that a character's base AC is not "something granted by your being" that can't be lost without "without failing fort. check vs disintegrate spell". It is entirely possible to drop below the base 10 AC through entirely ordinary means, such as low dexterity or being prone.
I can find only one reason behind not losing all base AC while unconscious: it is granted almost entirely by something you can't change by ordinary means.

[Divide by Zero]

I can find only one reason behind not losing all base AC while unconscious: it is granted almost entirely by something you can't change by ordinary means.

Try shooting an arrow at a stationary object. Will you hit it every time? The base 10 represents the fact that a less-trained fighter will not hit their target every time.

Now if you were arguing that it couldn't go below 5 (+/- size modifiers), since that's the same as a stationary object, then you might have a point. But 10 is a pretty arbitrary limit.

[Vladislav]

I always envisioned Shock Trooper representing someone who literally runs into his enemies weapons, and thus can lower his AC as much as he darn likes. Well, up to the BAB limit specified in the feat.

[excruciarch]

Try shooting an arrow at a stationary object. Will you hit it every time? The base 10 represents the fact that a less-trained fighter will not hit their target every time.

Now if you were arguing that it couldn't go below 5 (+/- size modifiers), since that's the same as a stationary object, then you might have a point. But 10 is a pretty arbitrary limit.
Not, that's not what I'm talking about.
AC is represented as an ability to dodge and as ability to block (your body somewhat blocks damage by itself, it is not thin air). Ability to dodge is represented by dex (which can't be lower that 1) and ability to block is represented by the other 5 points of base AC and you can't make your body softer to lose this amount. You can say: hey, I don't want to use that *dexterity part* of my base AC. I say: there are conditions for that, I'll grant you one for this.
This perfectly explains the reason behind penalties for falling prone and other such effects.
PS
Rules are giving the general idea, there's always something behind general ideas. DM is the one to see it to the best of his ability. Therefore there is no such thing as RAW. =)

I always envisioned Shock Trooper representing someone who literally runs into his enemies weapons, and thus can lower his AC as much as he darn likes. Well, up to the BAB limit specified in the feat.
So his armour or magic field granting AC won't meet that weapon? How's that possible? He throws all his equipment off his body on the run? =)

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

It seems like the fighter enjoys his one trick pony, and the other players don't mind. I don't see the problem, other than easy combats due to silly damage. And you've gotten a variety of reasonable responses to deal with that here, with or without banning shock trooper (bee tee dub, a non-knockbacking dungeoncrasher uses the feat without breaking it, so I'm not sure about the outright ban).

[Midnight_v]

Uhm... I'd like to know what the op decides to do.

I'm amazed to see this guy run around without reach. Hugemonsters, and large ones for that matter, will give this guy the buisness. Improved mauling for the win. LOL

[excruciarch]

After giving it some thought I've come to the conclusion that the entire AC for DMG concept is just wrong and contradicting core rules. Authors just followed BAB for DMG mechanics of the power attack feat (represents to which extent you sacrifice accuracy and proper form just to swing as powerful as you can). The thing is your AC is not affected by the recklessness of your charge, the conditional bonus to attacks made against you are. (penalty to AC and bonus to atk are different things, even though mathematics will work either way. But having like 0 AC makes you think that your dex is 0 or below, while it actually is intact.)

[NecroRick]

Can't you just 'house-rule' that multipliers don't actually multiply, they are additive instead? E.g. instead of 1x2x3 = 6, make 1x2x3=4. Essentially treating all the multipliers as percentages instead? (1 + (100% + 200%)) = 1 + 300% = 4

NB: you can do the same thing to the guys with ridiculously high amounts of undead HD controlled by blatantly stacking lots of multipliers...

...3
...2
...1

[kardar233]

Can't you just 'house-rule' that multipliers don't actually multiply, they are additive instead? E.g. instead of 1x2x3 = 6, make 1x2x3=4. Essentially treating all the multipliers as percentages instead? (1 + (100% + 200%)) = 1 + 300% = 4

NB: you can do the same thing to the guys with ridiculously high amounts of undead HD controlled by blatantly stacking lots of multipliers...

...3
...2
...1

Ummm.... that's how it actually works.

If you triple a doubling (say, Valorous on a Spirited lance charge) it works out to be a quadrupling. Says so right there in the PHB.

[tyckspoon]

Ummm.... that's how it actually works.

If you triple a doubling (say, Valorous on a Spirited lance charge) it works out to be a quadrupling. Says so right there in the PHB.

If that's all there was to it, it'd be fine, but the Power Attack multipliers rather go out of their way to avoid invoking the D&D multiplier language. Instead, Leap Attack gives a "300%" return.. and nobody is really quite sure wth they meant with that.

[NecroRick]

If that's all there was to it, it'd be fine, but the Power Attack multipliers rather go out of their way to avoid invoking the D&D multiplier language. Instead, Leap Attack gives a "300%" return.. and nobody is really quite sure wth they meant with that.

Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but I don't see any mention of percentages in either Leap or Power Attack. What sources are you using? Are they 3.0/3.5? Pre/post-errata?

[NecroRick]

@Op:

World records for long jumping prior to modern training methods were under 25 feet. Now they're almost 30 feet.

I suggest working out _exactly_ how far he jumps, and if he goes further than 25-30 feet treating him as a grenade-like (ie roll to see where it ends up) missile :D

[tyckspoon]

Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but I don't see any mention of percentages in either Leap or Power Attack. What sources are you using? Are they 3.0/3.5? Pre/post-errata?

I misremembered the numbers, but it's the Leap Attack errata (Complete Adventurer.) Which, on further review, I am reminded that they forgot to edit the third line of the feat- the one that deals with two-handed weapons- so that one still just says 'triple the bonus damage from your Power Attack', whereas if you do it with a one-handed weapon you instead deal '+100% Power Attack damage.'

[kestrel404]

I am running a campaign and one of the players has a fighter/barbarian with the Spiritual Totem alternative class feature(Complete Champion) ,which gives him the pounce ability.Also he has the valorous weapon enchasment(Unapproachable East) and feats leap atk ans shock trooper.So,if he charges he does a full atk with the following dmg:(weapon dmg+str mod+3 x power atk penatly)x2.Is there any rules problem?How i can handle this,i do not want to disallow feats,but he doing massive dmg and ruins the game balance.Plz help

Your not solving the correct problem. A fighter only has one real capability - damage output. If the fighter is dealing more damage in combat than anyone else, that just mean's he's doing a good job.

The problem you need to solve is not reducing his damage output - it's throwing out challenges that the other players are well-suited to solving.

You've got a Fighter, a Wizard, a Cleric and a Thief in your party. Congratulations, it cannot get any more classic than that! The simple answer is to throw out alternating challenges where the different characters can shine.

Encounter 1 is a trap - there are lots of threads on this board outlining clever and interesting traps. Do a search, or post a question if you don't have any ideas. He can't deal with the trap other than to run through it and get healed afterwards - so try to make it something that won't work on.

Encounter 2 is an undead with a seriously high damage reduction and lots of hit points - something skeletal, so it's only vulnerable to bludgeoning damage. Have this take place on rough terrain (gravel, sand, a steep hill, a narrow ledge over a cliff, etc.), so he cannot charge. He can still put out a fair amount of damage, but the Cleric (turn undead) and Wizard (blasty spells that ignore DR) should really shine.

Encounter 3 should allow for the Fighter to shine.

Repeat. It's that simple.

[Karoht]

Another good way to deal with a charger. Have the bad guys cluster up. A charge needs a minimum of 10 ft distance if I recall correctly. Alternatively, have them scatter. Yes, he will probably one-shot something, once a round. If there are 20 guys, all scattered around, it's going to take him a while to get them all. That is plenty of time for ranged attacks, more spells to affect the charger, bad guys with reach weapons have all the warning they need to set for charge, etc.

Units in formations can have group feats, very useful for breaking charges. The charge effectively does nothing when everyone in the group has set for charge AND has high enough AC's to stand a likely chance (50% or higher) of the uber powerful charge attack/s missing.

[Talya]

Charge with shock trooper/leap attack is really no more overpowered than an optimized spellcaster using save-or-die spells. (Uh, which is to say...it's somewhat overpowered.) Instead of save-or-die, it's "miss-or-it-dies." High ACs, miss chances can all make it less reliable. However, unlike a save-or-die spell, an ubercharge has other obstacles--Often literally. Terrain, cover, positioning - they can all make a charge completely impossible.

[Flickerdart]

Another fun way of breaking up charges is the Flicker mystery from Tome of Magic - immediate action teleporting for rounds/level. The charger rushes at the enemy Shadowcaster, but he is there no longer! Using his immediates to avoid the charger, the Shadowcaster can still be a credible threat to the party with his standard actions.

[excruciarch]

Charge with shock trooper/leap attack is really no more overpowered than an optimized spellcaster using save-or-die spells. (Uh, which is to say...it's somewhat overpowered.) Instead of save-or-die, it's "miss-or-it-dies." High ACs, miss chances can all make it less reliable. However, unlike a save-or-die spell, an ubercharge has other obstacles--Often literally. Terrain, cover, positioning - they can all make a charge completely impossible.
Fighters can't have nice things. They have their HP and AC and BAB,and that's it. No juicy things for fighters! =)
With -20 penalty for supreme p.atk (pounce+ leap attack by default) a FB can deal like 2000 dmg per round. It does seem like something abnormal...
PS
But then again save or die spells don't care much for your HP. Which can bring you to the conclusion that they can waste an infinite amount of HP.

[Talya]

Fighters can't have nice things. They have their HP and AC and BAB,and that's it. No juicy things for fighters! =)
With -20 penalty for supreme p.atk (pounce+ leap attack by default) a FB can deal like 2000 dmg per round. It does seem like something abnormal...

Yeah, I understand that, but ultimately, what is the difference between "Hit and do 2000 damage" vs. "Save or die" while ignoring hit points altogether?

[excruciarch]

Yeah, I understand that, but ultimately, what is the difference between "Hit and do 2000 damage" vs. "Save or die" while ignoring hit points altogether?
All save or die spells require fort. check. Given steadfast determination an optimized character can make all your DC go to waste.
But still not to the extent of a high-AC foe ruining ubercharger's day.

[Talya]

All save or die spells require fort. check. Given steadfast determination an optimized character can make all your DC go to waste.
But still not to the extent of a high-AC foe ruining ubercharger's day.

No. Some save or die-spells require will. There's even a few save-or-lose spells on reflex.

[Flickerdart]

Hell, a metamagicked Enervation is a SoD without any save at all.

[excruciarch]

No. Some save or die-spells require will. There's even a few save-or-lose spells on reflex.
I kind of remembered only Necro. =)

Hell, a metamagicked Enervation is a SoD without any save at all.
You can only hope your cleric reaches 13 before you encounter foes like that. =)

[Flickerdart]

The overwhelming majority of monsters are not 13th level clerics. Only fighting 13th level clerics strains verisimilitude, suspension of disbelief, and may cause dental damage due to excessive grinding of teeth. If you believe you or a friend may constantly be fighting 13th level clerics, please consult your Dungeon Master immediately. This has been a public service announcement.

[excruciarch]

The overwhelming majority of monsters are not 13th level clerics. Only fighting 13th level clerics strains verisimilitude, suspension of disbelief, and may cause dental damage due to excessive grinding of teeth. If you believe you or a friend may constantly be fighting 13th level clerics, please consult your Dungeon Master immediately. This has been a public service announcement.
It's a common thing for our DM to throw something overly butthurting and optimized our way. For the whole current module we fight no one but Zhentarim foes, Clerics of Bane included. =)
PS
He won't stop at nothing. Killing your character, using Soul Bind and bury the gem somewhere deep underwater is a likely scenario if it fits his twisted story. =)

[Flickerdart]

It's a common thing for our DM to throw something overly butthurting and optimized our way. For the whole current module we fight no one but Zhentarim foes, Clerics of Bane included. =)
The overwhelming majority of gaming groups are not identical to yours. Exclusive use of anecdotal evidence in arguments may strain credibility and work against the point you are trying to make. If you believe that the overwhelming majority of gaming groups are identical to yours, please consult a Dungeon Master other than your own immediately. This has been a public service announcement.

[excruciarch]

The overwhelming majority of gaming groups are not identical to yours. Exclusive use of anecdotal evidence in arguments may strain credibility and work against the point you are trying to make. If you believe that the overwhelming majority of gaming groups are identical to yours, please consult a Dungeon Master other than your own immediately. This has been a public service announcement.
You are right. But he loves to put our cooperation skills to test once in a while. Since there is no way for him to create 5 optimized foes and play them in a real battle as good as we five people with our own characters do.
We are basically optimized Fighter (barb/rb), Cleric, Rogue (Shadowmaster) and Caster (wiz/archmage) and a ranger/scout/oobi. So it's not that easy to kill us all by a difficult encounter.

[Flickerdart]

While I'm happy for you, I'm not really sure what that has to do with, well, anything.

Re: ubercharging VS SoDs, it's far easier to defend against an ubercharger. 24k to pick up a Minor Cloak of Displacement, and you now have a 20% chance of pointing and laughing at the poor fellow instead of the other way around, even if he does manage to get close enough to hit you. It also takes far more dedication: your class levels, your feats, your items. For a Wizard to use SoDs, he just has to prepare some SoDs.

[excruciarch]

While I'm happy for you, I'm not really sure what that has to do with, well, anything.
It has something to do with you reading my lines not the way I intended them to be and starting this pointless conversation which I'm not reluctant to continue not having something better to do. =)

[herrhauptmann]

Re: ubercharging VS SoDs, it's far easier to defend against an ubercharger. 24k to pick up a Minor Cloak of Displacement, and you now have a 20% chance of pointing and laughing at the poor fellow instead of the other way around, even if he does manage to get close enough to hit you. It also takes far more dedication: your class levels, your feats, your items. For a Wizard to use SoDs, he just has to prepare some SoDs.

Rather expensive don't you think?
+1 smoking spiked gauntlet= 8305 gp
Steadfast boots= 1400 gp
Now not only do you punish him for thinking of hitting you, he's got a decent chance of missing outright.
Hmmm....
Smoky the Ogre charger (with boots) vs mundane human charger.
Smoky charges an ally of mundane, using all his feats to bring AC to 0.
Mundane charges Smoky seeking vengeance. Just as Mundane enters Smoky's range, he gets hit, hard. All the normal power attack modifiers but at double damage.
Mundane is still on his feet, though he's not looking too happy. Goes to complete his charge and turn Smoky into hamburger, when Smoky hits him once more for opening himself up with his reckless charging (AoO).

[Veyr]

The overwhelming majority of monsters are not 13th level clerics. Only fighting 13th level clerics strains verisimilitude, suspension of disbelief, and may cause dental damage due to excessive grinding of teeth. If you believe you or a friend may constantly be fighting 13th level clerics, please consult your Dungeon Master immediately. This has been a public service announcement.
The overwhelming majority of gaming groups are not identical to yours. Exclusive use of anecdotal evidence in arguments may strain credibility and work against the point you are trying to make. If you believe that the overwhelming majority of gaming groups are identical to yours, please consult a Dungeon Master other than your own immediately. This has been a public service announcement.
Flicker wins the thread.

[Divide by Zero]

No. Some save or die-spells require will. There's even a few save-or-lose spells on reflex.

In fact, some of the Will SoL's are even worse than death, e.g. dominate person. Why just take out one opponent when you can add an ally as well?