What are Followers used for?

[TheRinni]

Other than carrying your stuff, offering roleplay situations, and irritating the DM, what can followers do for a character with the Leadership Feat?

I'm guessing they wouldn't make for very good meatshields. After all, the death of one will cause your leadership score to decrease by 1, and they're quite low leveled.

Also, I'm curious, can you gain divine ranks though followers?

[druid91]

Other than carrying your stuff, offering roleplay situations, and irritating the DM, what can followers do for a character with the Leadership Feat?

I'm guessing they wouldn't make for very good meatshields. After all, the death of one will cause your leadership score to decrease by 1, and they're quite low leveled.

Also, I'm curious, can you gain divine ranks though followers?

After that first one dies it stops decreasing. It isn't cumulative like cohorts. And it only applies to followers.

But I do believe the best use is as experts. Profesion and craft skills. And then use the money obtained to buy stuff. Subtracting enough to for your followers to eat.

[Fox Box Socks]

Best use for followers?

Archery. Full stop.

[RaggedAngel]

Best use for followers?

Archery. Full stop.

This. Very much this. It doesn't matter if they're all Commoners with a dex penalty; if you have 80 of them shoot in a round, and they're all using Light Crossbows, then around 4 of them will get a 20 and hit whatever it is you're fighting.

That said, a much better use for Commoners is to purchase/craft a bunch of flasks of acid and Alchemist's fires for them. Ranged touch attacks are much, much easier to make then ranged attacks.

[druid91]

Best use for followers?

Archery. Full stop.

Unless you are using the arrow volley rules... not really.

[hamlet]

Emergency rations.

[TheRinni]

After that first one dies it stops decreasing. It isn't cumulative like cohorts. And it only applies to followers.

But I do believe the best use is as experts. Profesion and craft skills. And then use the money obtained to buy stuff. Subtracting enough to for your followers to eat.

Aha! You're right. I just assumed that it stacked like the cohort negatives. That really makes more since. Say you have 130-some followers as an epic level character, and a single fireball destroys a handful of them. The result is that no one would follow you. Ever.

I absolutely love the expert idea.


Archery. Full stop.
For a volley-like effect?


Emergency rations.
That just made my day xD

[Silva Stormrage]

People to run your fortress you got when you took landlord. Also if your dm allows you to have PC class followers (RAW you are allowed to but many do not allow it) warlocks with edritch spear are awesome for long range snipers.

[CTrees]

-Crafting and Profession skills. Want to run a sweatshop? Need to crew a ship? Followers!
-"Their arrows will blot out the sun"
-Informants in different cities. Should be a nifty bonus to information gathering, and REALLY characterful. Snitches, fixers, whatever - followers work great
-Cultists (especially if thrallherd). Everyone loves cultists!
-Carrying capacity.
-Searching for traps (the death penalty is not cumulative for followers)
-Staffing your keep

[Starbuck_II]

People to run your fortress you got when you took landlord. Also if your dm allows you to have PC class followers (RAW you are allowed to but many do not allow it) warlocks with edritch spear are awesome for long range snipers.

NPC classes work: adept.

[Pink]

Currently my character's followers are being used to staff his brothel.

[TheRinni]

I'm curious how the profession expert followers would work. They can't have more than 3 ranks in a skill at first level, and probably won't have higher than a +2 modifier at most.

[subject42]

Followers are hilarious if you have them use the "Aid Another" action. After a while those untyped +2s tend to add up.

[hamlet]

That just made my day xD

I accept master card and certified checks.:smallbiggrin:

[CTrees]

I'm curious how the profession expert followers would work. They can't have more than 3 ranks in a skill at first level, and probably won't have higher than a +2 modifier at most.

The thing to remember is, the level one profession experts? They're mostly going to either be aiding another massively or doing relatively easy tasks in a massively parallel manner, and with four ranks (not sure what I'm missing, with you saying they can't have more than three ranks in a skill...) and a +1 or so ability bonus, that's quite sufficient, taking ten all day long. Sailing a ship or building a stronghold, for instance? Very doable.

[TheRinni]

The thing to remember is, the level one profession experts? They're mostly going to either be aiding another massively or doing relatively easy tasks in a massively parallel manner, and with four ranks (not sure what I'm missing, with you saying they can't have more than three ranks in a skill...) and a +1 or so ability bonus, that's quite sufficient, taking ten all day long. Sailing a ship or building a stronghold, for instance? Very doable.

Lol, sorry. I don't know why I said 3. The limit is 3+level, which would make it 4. And you're right. Their aid results in most of them giving a +2 bonus, and if they work independently they can easily take 10 in most situations.

[gbprime]

Followers are often used as staff, yes. But a better use, IMO, is to represent a network of contacts, reliable folk scattered all over the place that you can go to who know things, who know people, who keep tabs on people for you. They could be spies or just regular folks who do the odd job for you out of loyalty.

[Diarmuid]

How are people getting the idea that hordes of followers can Aid Another into getting crazy checks?



In many cases, a character’s help won’t be beneficial, or only a limited number of characters can help at once.

In cases where the skill restricts who can achieve certain results you can’t aid another to grant a bonus to a task that your character couldn’t achieve alone.


Both of those caveats would seem to enforce some sane amount of limitation on how many Aid Anothers are viable. Only so many people can help with just about any task. And then, even if you can get a bunch of people together, anything more than a result of 20+Skill Mod is useless. This might not be bad a limit for them helping the PC who likely has a relatively high skill mod, but you're never going to get anyone making anything with a DC over 25 tops.

[Telonius]

Ammunition
Backup singers for the party Bard
Shaking the front gate and making rude gestures while the heroes sneak in the back entrance
Stuffing the ballot box in the mayoral election
Instant pitchfork mob!

[JaronK]

Arrow volleys are amazing (see Complete Warrior) and can devastate large areas when augmented by a few bards. Consider the fact that 5 bards, each with Masterwork War Drums and a different Dragonfire Inspiration type, can add 10d6 damage (2d6 each of fire, cold, electricity, acid, and sonic) to all allies in auditory range (which with a war drum should be miles). Throw in one more regular Bard with the drums for an additional +2 damage. Now, using the volley rules, the BAB and proficiency of your followers doesn't matter. Just have a single spotter with a high BAB (maybe yourself) direct the volleys and you can do insane damage from very significant range.

Followers are also good for crafting and staffing your buildings. A Lyre of Building is better for actual construction, but if you can get a Warforged Bard follower he doesn't need to be very high level at all to hit the DC 18 check (+2 Masterwork Lyre of Building, +1 Charisma, and 5 ranks will do it at level 2) and as long as you give him a master plan to work from (Knowledge Architecture and Engineering check) he can build 24/7 for you.

JaronK

[Zaranthan]

Well, people have mentioned archer volleys, large scale craft & profession, and staffing buildings / crewing ships. I'll just leave an image in your mind: your party walks into town, triumphantly holding up the head of whatever horrid creature won't be ravaging the countryside anymore, followed by a massive, walking, human pyramid.

[subject42]

Alternately, follow these steps:


Play a high-level psion
Get a TON of warforged followers
Convince your DM that since there are so many of them, it's easier to just count them as a swarm.
Realize that swarms are single creatures.
Manifest Fusion
???
VOLTRON

[Divide by Zero]

How are people getting the idea that hordes of followers can Aid Another into getting crazy checks?

Both of those caveats would seem to enforce some sane amount of limitation on how many Aid Anothers are viable. Only so many people can help with just about any task. And then, even if you can get a bunch of people together, anything more than a result of 20+Skill Mod is useless. This might not be bad a limit for them helping the PC who likely has a relatively high skill mod, but you're never going to get anyone making anything with a DC over 25 tops.

You don't have them Aid to get crazy checks. You group them into bunches of five or so, each aiding another follower, so that they can craft/steer/whatever.

[subject42]

Both of those caveats would seem to enforce some sane amount of limitation on how many Aid Anothers are viable. Only so many people can help with just about any task. And then, even if you can get a bunch of people together, anything more than a result of 20+Skill Mod is useless. This might not be bad a limit for them helping the PC who likely has a relatively high skill mod, but you're never going to get anyone making anything with a DC over 25 tops.

I've used it in-game to create a masterwork weapon sweatshop. With one foreman averaging ~12 when taking 10, he only needs 4 assistants to pump out the masterwork component. If you have four or five teams doing that, crafting gets a lot faster.

In my case the hilarity stems from the look on my DM's face after I started the industrial revolution.

[druid91]

How are people getting the idea that hordes of followers can Aid Another into getting crazy checks?



Both of those caveats would seem to enforce some sane amount of limitation on how many Aid Anothers are viable. Only so many people can help with just about any task. And then, even if you can get a bunch of people together, anything more than a result of 20+Skill Mod is useless. This might not be bad a limit for them helping the PC who likely has a relatively high skill mod, but you're never going to get anyone making anything with a DC over 25 tops.

You can willingly increase the DC for a faster craft time. Also... Sky fortress Damocles wants to have a word with you...:smallamused:

[WinWin]

Train wardogs. Also, war elephants. Good use of downtime.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Donating 1st level spells to reduce epic spell construction times and DC's... then Aid Another for cumulative +2 on said spellcraft check...

The bard idea gets even sillier very rapidly, depending on how you work things. You can get quite a substantial bonus out of bards at even quite low levels.

Remember, you can have up to 6th level followers. And you can have multiples of lower level bards.

Get a group of 4rd level bards together, with Song of the Heart, MW Drums, and Vest of Legends (yes, you spend you money to twink them out a bit), with a Badge of Valor and the spell Inspiration Boost, they now has a +6 on IC. 6 x 5 = 30d6 damage of various elemental types. Granted, you'll need to have an outrageous charisma to get that many 4th level bards, so you may need to use some 3rd level Bards, who don't get Inspirational Boost, and thus only have a +5 rather than a +6 to inspire courage.

Now the party War Chanter brings up Song of Legion and HIS Inspire Courage...

Suddenly all your minions have a BAB of +19, including iterative attacks, and pack enough of a punch to drop just about anything you'd care to.

[Teron]

How are people getting the idea that hordes of followers can Aid Another into getting crazy checks?



Both of those caveats would seem to enforce some sane amount of limitation on how many Aid Anothers are viable. Only so many people can help with just about any task. And then, even if you can get a bunch of people together, anything more than a result of 20+Skill Mod is useless. This might not be bad a limit for them helping the PC who likely has a relatively high skill mod, but you're never going to get anyone making anything with a DC over 25 tops.
I believe you're misinterpreting that second clause. It doesn't mean Aid Another can't bring your result over what you could have rolled alone; it just means that an untrained character can't help with a trained only skill, a non-wizard can't help a wizard learn a spell, and so on.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Train wardogs. Also, war elephants. Good use of downtime.

Oh yeah, handle animal and UMD (not that UMD has anything to do with this) are the two most easily abused skills. It'll be fun for the other guy's army to see that 2/3 of your army is wolves and elephants. :smallbiggrin:

Also, this is why an expert is overpowering in low op groups.

[subject42]

Alternately, some skills can legitimately use an arbitrarily large number of people for aid other. The first one that comes to mind is bluff.

150 people corroborating your story is one awesome circumstance bonus.

[Typewriter]

They make a great airship crew

https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aq4n2Zv8vmuydFZneGN5Rkxzamh1MWJkNjM2TUdYZ Gc&hl=en_US&authkey=CIiMyecD

Especially when you convince the DM that you were able to pay for said airship by taking all of your followers money since it's used to pay for their home :P

[Hunter Killer]

I've tended to use them for armies and the like; The few PC's with Leadership are higher-ups in a larger force of some realm and their followers are their troops.

Most of the time I even give them additional followers outside of what the feat would allow, with the feat-allowed followers being the troops that are absolutely loyal to them.

Other than that, I really haven't used the feat or had PC's interested in it.

[The Glyphstone]

All sorts of things. Pack mules, walking trap detectors, meat shields, bridges over shallow rivers, trail rations....

Oh, wait, I'm thinking of the Thrallherd's Believers. Like followers, but better in every way.:smallbiggrin:

[dgnslyr]

If you can't think of anything, you're not thinking hard enough. :smallbiggrin:

Emergency catapult ammunition, anybody?

[Knaight]

One thing that hasn't been touched on yet is information spreading. Bluffing is just a part of that, if you need something known, you can see that it gets known. Massive propaganda machines are wonderful things, and in political intrigue games they are among the most powerful tools at your disposal.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Alternately, some skills can legitimately use an arbitrarily large number of people for aid other. The first one that comes to mind is bluff.

150 people corroborating your story is one awesome circumstance bonus.

The more people backing you up, the more likely it is to be seen as true.

Though with that kind of modifier, you could bluff a god into give all of his divine power to you. :smallbiggrin:

[Telonius]

If they're all Bards: Music festival!

[Hiro Protagonest]

If they're all Bards: Music festival!

They're assumed to be NPC classes. Experts get perform though.

[Saintheart]

Note the Hobgoblin Warsoul (MM 5) and his Soul Tyrant ability. They're buffing engines!

[Tvtyrant]

Donating level 1 spell slots of course!

[CTrees]

They're assumed to be NPC classes. Experts get perform though.

Based on what?

The SRD states: "Followers are similar to cohorts, except they’re generally low-level NPCs." The SRD does not state they use NPC classes, which is an enormous distinction (how many NPC liches restrict themselves to taking levels in adept?). "Generally low-level NPCs," to me, would be accomodating the fact that followers can be up to level six, which some would consider mid-level.

As a DM, if I allowed leadership, I'd determine classes randomly, with a high percentage in NPC classes, but I've not seen where that's RAW.

[TheRinni]

Two Questions:

1. Is it up to the DM how these followers are obtained? They obviously can't just pop out of nowhere at level 6. How would the character with said feat "earn" them?

2. What about the Divine Rank question I asked in the earlier post. In Deities and Demigods, I believe it talks about gaining divine powers from the number of worshipers you have. Can you have Followers who worship you?

[Telonius]

Two Questions:

1. Is it up to the DM how these followers are obtained? They obviously can't just pop out of nowhere at level 6. How would the character with said feat "earn" them?

1. Generally up to the DM. Three examples of Leadership, actually seen in campaigns I've played in or DM'd:

- Character had a Vow of Poverty and donated his entire wealth (Levels 1-20) to the Lantern Street Orphanage in Cauldron. All of the town's children became his followers, and the Orphanage expanded to become the first public school system in the realm. (It had to drop the "orphan" part when it became so successful that parents started "abandoning" their kids to get them a leg up on an apprentice-ship).

- Another character became famous in the town, and as the campaign progressed more and more people started recognizing him whenever he went anywhere. A local cabbage salesman (based on the guy from the Last Airbender cartoon), who was a running joke in the campaign, became the highest-level Follower and eventually opened a local cabbage soup restaurant. After the character reached level 11, any Bard traveling through town would know him. There wasn't a static group of followers, just a number of people he could draw on for any specific task.

- A Druid with Leadership and a Dire Toad companion began to attract amphibian followers. Since she had a base of operations, each time they returned from a quest, the team would notice a few more frogs and toads added to the pond and the grounds around their homestead. Some frogs would be advanced in animal hitdice to match the equivalent "Follower" values.

[Kaeso]

Followers are IMHO mostly out of combat characters. Just imagine that the feat "Leadership" is the equivalent of being granted the title of Lord/Marquis/Baron or any other member of the lower nobility. Imagine your cohort as captain of the guard, and your followers are your entourage. A Lord needs maids to keep his palace clean, a handful of guards to keep thieves out, some stablemasters to take care of his horse, some cooks to prepare his meals, servants that prepare his bath, librarians for his personal library, perhaps a chaplain or two or a court jester etc. They're all NPC classes that are roughly level 1-3, so pick the one that's most suited for their role.

[mootoall]

All of them are Warforged. Buy each of them a Greater Rod of Wonder. 24/7 have them activate it, with orders to drop it if they're teleported. Infinite fun.

[Yora]

One very important trait of followers is that they are loyal. This makes them different from mere employees. Since you have to provide for their food accomodations, and special equipment they are just as expensive as minimum wage laborers.
But hired help can easily be bribed to betray you, while followers are loyal and completely devoted to you. They should not be able to be bribed and even a charm spell won't override their loyalty to you. Taking hostages might work to force a follower to betray their master, but even then it's reluctantly.

When you dig up a large treasure and are on your way back to the ship with the last trunk, you might find your hired crew gone along with the ship and the rest of the treasure. But a ship staffed by your followers will always wait for you.

[Alabenson]

Based on what?

The SRD states: "Followers are similar to cohorts, except they’re generally low-level NPCs." The SRD does not state they use NPC classes, which is an enormous distinction (how many NPC liches restrict themselves to taking levels in adept?). "Generally low-level NPCs," to me, would be accomodating the fact that followers can be up to level six, which some would consider mid-level.

As a DM, if I allowed leadership, I'd determine classes randomly, with a high percentage in NPC classes, but I've not seen where that's RAW.

In 3.0, it was stated that followers had to be either commoners, experts, or warriors. They seem to have dropped this limitation in 3.5, however.

[Yora]

I'd allow players with Leadership to state some preferences what kind of enterprise they want to run with their cohort and followers. Depending on that, I think about 10% spellcasters seems to be a good number, a bit fewer or more if it fits the theme.

[McQ]

Cityscape page 124

Mobs -
A mob consists of 48 Small or Medium creatures, or 12 Large creatures. A mob is treated as a single entity, much like a swarm, but is composed of Small, Medium or Large creatures. A mob must be composed of creatures of the same type, and a riot that consists of creatures of different types is best modeled as two (or more) separate mobs forming a single encounter.
CN Gargantuan humanoid (mob of Medium humans) CR 8

[Tvtyrant]

There is always Spelljammer crews to fill, or city guilds or country estates.