Rogue-wizard or fighter-wizard?

[Raendyn]

Hi playgrounders,

It's been some months since i've posted back here, but now i need your help once again!

I am playing on an uber-high powered campaign, where the DM pushes greatly optimaized players to their limits, so i am in trouble here. The rest of the party are 2 wizards and a druid.... incantatrix(thesis/ray focused) , malkonvoker (enough said), Shephard ( no time holes, but he will be able to turn into balor)

So since i am gona join them, and i feel like playing something that hits physical dmg, (of course it needs some spell power to play by) & since i don't like barbarians, i have like two choices. a gish, or a rogue wizard. since i've always wanted to play the teleporting guy that jaunt's behind you and kill you with a swift blow. I admit i tent to feel closer to the second idea, but thats not absolute.

What i know for sure is that i'll take conjurer's abrupt jaunt.

What i ask from you guys are few good builds/ideas to make my character playable near these monsters... I mean these friends of mine, my party :nale:

ATM the party is 7 lvl but when i enter they could be 8...
Keep in mind that i need something that can stay alive through all lvls, characters that fool around until they can start being unbeatable wont work.

Just a note, the campaign is good-aligned and almost all enemies are evil!
So, could 4 lvls of skullclan hunter stick in there?

All books are allowed even 3e, so long as the used material is not reprinted in 3.5 and thus we keep the latest thing. There is no such thing as "cheese". everyone, friends and enemies, all are cheesed.
But! Abuses like " infinate loopes" , "i take 10 rounds you take 1", " PAO beholder $hit" are banned.(thank god)

Also In order to qualify for any prereq you must do so , naked & with no buffs!
(only exception plannar touchstone:belkar:)

Thanks in advance for your replies and sorry for my english.:thog:

Edit: psionics, incarnum, ToM do not exist. ToB does.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Ever heard of Tome of Battle?

Edit: okay, it does. Go warblade or swordsage instead of fighter. Don't go rogue unless you can reliably flank with someone else (a summoned monster would do the trick), or unless you take rogue and then swordsage with assassin's stance.

[Eldariel]

Rogue 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer -> is alright. Nowhere near the power level of your companions but no multiclass character is. It'd be the closest to a Rogue/Wizard while maintaining remotely competitive power level. You could use the silly old Dragonwrought Spellhoarding Loredrake Kobold shell to get couple of extra levels of spellcasting but that's yawntastic so as you will.

Ask some help from your Incantatrix-friend, persist Hunter's Eye, Guided Shot & maybe Divine Power (you could Arcane Disciple it or w/e) and like, you'd be done. You can take 3 levels of Inc yourself if your friend isn't interested in wasting resources. Gets you basic SA, constant SA capability and iteratives and all that.

[JaronK]

If you want a high power damager that fits with the sort of things your party mates are throwing out, you might consider a kobold blaster sorcerer. Consider an Unseelie Fey Loredrake Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold Sorcerer X/Mage of the Arcane Order Y using the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage so that you're 3 Sorcerer levels ahead of your actual level. You'll need Arcane Preparation to get into Mage of the Arcane Order, and you'll want Arcane Thesis: Wings of Flurry along with lots of metamagics.

You've got a racial +5 Charisma (but a -4 Con, watch out) and enemies have their saves debuffed by your Cha mod if they get too close. Your primary damage spell is Wings of Flurry, which starts out at 10d6 force damage for you to all nearby enemies and dazes them when hit... ouch. Plus unlike a normal Sorcerer you can pick various utility spells as needed. That might work great.

JaronK

[Eldariel]

but a -4 Con, watch out...

Desert Kobold would move 2 of that to Wis; probably preferable with the low priority combined with the native bonus. There's also Int-option.

[Jude_H]

Can't the Skullclan Hunter's schtick be replicated with some pretty cheap items without the lost caster levels? I don't have the book, but I'm going to avoid it with most of these suggestions.

Rogue 1/Wizard 5/Unseen Seer 10/Incantatrix 4 is a pretty general purpose skillmonkey, but I think it can nail your plan. You might need to snag Arcane Strike for the drop-in-one-hit thing, but it could be pretty robust, if you can keep some magical defenses up. The main problem would be juggling swift actions - both movement and buffs would have to be crammed into swift actions to allow 1-round kills without hemoraging spells into AS.

Wizard 5/Swiftblade [9 or 10]/Abjurant Champion 5 is pretty basic, but very good for teleporty stabby goodness. Its only problem is that it doesn't really mature until level 8.

Ranger 1/Psion 5/Anarchic Initiate 4/Slayer 10 would be pretty direct, would have a skillmonkey aspect, a magical aspect and would be able to hit things really hard. With Favored Enemy (Arcanist) and Favored Power attack, it could actually be pretty scary. The best Psion specialization would be Erudite if your reading of its powers recovered would give it a worthwhile array while PrCed, or probably Nomad if it wouldn't.

Totemist 2/Duskblade 3/Chameleon 10/Swordsage 1/Skullclan Hunter 4 might be another interesting approach. Totemist would allow move action teleports, Duskblade would allow Standard action channeling, Chameleon would allow deep spell selection, 3 caster levels would allow Extra Spell to fill the Chameleon's floating feat for total arcane spell access. Skills might be hard to finagle for Chameleon entrance, but it could work pretty well.

If I were building a character to do what you describe, I'd actually probably go with Swordsage/Cloistered Cleric/Ruby Knight Vindicator, making liberal use of Knight's Move.

Shadow pounce would be pretty neat if it were accessible to Good characters. Or without massive CL loss. :/

EDIT:
Wizard 5/Swiftblade 10/War Weaver 5 would lose CL like crazy, but still might be able to abuse the action economy enough to keep up. That alone would probably make it a pretty cool pick. Especially if it can get its hands on some form of the Arcane Fusion spells.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Alright, as I see it, you've got two ways to gish.

If you're bent on wizard or sorcerer, go swordsage, warblade or crusader, then go into Jade Phoenix Mage.

If you don't mind going cleric, the most optimized gish I know of is cleric 4/crusader 1/Ruby Knight Vindicator X.

[FafnerMorell]

I've had fun with a 1-rogue (human, able-learner)/7+ wizard as a skill monkey/batman. I've never bothered with a sneak attack, but it's a versatile build for doing all the standard rogue things while still being a full wizard.

[NecroRick]

Sun School lets you attack after porting, it requires a dip into a Flurry of blows class (Monk, Sohei as base classes, or the Eye of something or other prestige class from Races of the Dragqueen or whatever the Kobold book is called).

If you can draw from the Eberron Sourcebooks there is a prestige class for House Orien (Blade of Orien?) that (at class level 10) gets a (que angelic chorus) Full Attack after teleporting.

Abrupt Jaunt is okay*, but the DM may pick on you because of it (do you really want to stick a target on your forehead, and a "kick me" sign on your back in such a high-optimisation campaign?) , also it is powered by Int so you may MAD.

Warlock has dimension door at will at 6th level

Conjuration Specialist (or cleric...) can get teleport at will at 7th level through the Reserve Feat.

Druid can get it at whatever level they get 4th level spells only if they can jujitsu dimension door onto their spell list, which they _can_ do via Seeker of the misty Isle which adds travel domain, but you have to be an elf or half elf. If you start a couple of levels more than that, then you can bypass Dimension Door and go straight for the fifth level Druid spell (walk through plants or puddles or something like that) that is also from the Conjuration (Teleportation) subschool.

* you'd actually be better off keeping the familiar, and then taking one of the blink dogs that can bring a person with them as your familiar

[Flame of Anor]

Wizard 5/Swiftblade [9 or 10]/Abjurant Champion 5 is pretty basic, but very good for teleporty stabby goodness. Its only problem is that it doesn't really mature until level 8.

Then it's a good thing the OP is joining at level 7 or 8.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

I've linked this one post twice in one day. Have fun. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1240.0)

On a related note, from an optimization stand-point, you're probably better off going Spellthief 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer 10/(Arcane Trickster or Spellwarped Sniper or Full-casting Wizard PrC) 5, grabbing thing like Able Learner, Master Spellthief, and Craven.

[Raendyn]

Thank you all for your replies.

The main reason I wanted to avoid being more arcane than mundane is because everyone in the party is a caster & the DM every now & then throws a boss with globes of invul, AMF etc.. But, i'll double check all the builds & decide

I'll also take a look into ToB because i've never used it before...

[BlueInc]

If you don't mind going cleric, the most optimized gish I know of is cleric 4/crusader 1/Ruby Knight Vindicator X.

Can you link a build like that? I'm playing a 4th level melee-oriented cleric in a game right now and I was seriously considering going crusader.

[Eldariel]

Can you link a build like that? I'm playing a 4th level melee-oriented cleric in a game right now and I was seriously considering going crusader.

You don't really need a build for it; just take those classes in that order, take whatever good feats you feel like, whatever good maneuvers you feel like and you're a god. Especially with Divine Impetus on level 7 to get extra actions, in conjunction with the rebuy + White Raven Tactics or DMM: Quickened/Quickened spells, for example.

[Person_Man]

Given your exclusion of the Binder, Incarnate, Totemist, Swordsage, Crusader, Warblade, and a desire to deal physical (as opposed to magic) damage, my suggestions are Wildshape Ranger, Psychic Warrior, or Psychic Rogue (if you're willing to accept slightly weaker powers in exchange for Skills).

[Raendyn]

Guys, please!

Psionics do not exist in the campaign, as does incarnum, as does ToM.
I am really sticked to the thread weaiting for the next possible good build. And a great amount of nice ideas come here & i am not allowed to touch them!!:smallfurious:

[Curmudgeon]

Rogue doesn't really mesh well with Wizard. For that matter, Wizard in general doesn't work with physical damage. Have you considered a Cleric?

Clerics can cast Divine Power to gain full BAB. And there's a multiclassing feat (Sacred Outlaw) which adds your Rogue and Cleric levels for the purpose of sneak attack dice and undead turn attempts; Cleric plus 3 levels of Rogue and this feat will give you full sneak attack. You can get the Abrupt Jaunt effect, but with many more daily uses, with Travel Devotion. Any Cleric can trade a domain (like Travel) for the associated domain feat (like Travel Devotion). A Cloistered Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric) gets Knowledge as a third domain, and decent skill points. Add the Education feat (all Knowledges are class skills for all your classes) and trade Knowledge for Knowledge Devotion. That feat gives you bonuses to attack and damage based on Knowledge checks for the associated creature types. Maximize those 6 Knowledges related to creature types and you'll get bonuses vs. everything in D&D.

At higher levels there's a nifty feat for Clerics called Initiate of Mystra (Player's Guide to Faerûn). This gives you a chance to cast spells in an Antimagic Zone, and adds some Initiate of Mystra-only spells to your spell list. Among those spells at 7th level is Holy Star. (This spell is a benefit of the Initiate of Mystra feat and is different from the Holy Star in Spell Compendium.) This Holy Star lets you cycle through several options, and you'll want to use two of them:

Protection: a +10 bonus to AC (excellent if you're going to get physical with the enemies)
Fire Bolt: ranged touch attack dealing fire damage (up to 10d6) within 90'
The nifty thing is that you can switch between these options as a free action, so you start Protection going at the end of your turn, switch at the start of you turn if you want to make a full attack of Fire Bolt (since this uses your attack bonus, it allows iterative attacks), and then back to Protection. If you have Holy Star going all day, you're in great shape for combat.

The way to make Holy Star last all day is with Persistent Spell. Have you heard of Divine Metamagic? It's a feat which allows using turn undead attempts instead of higher level spell slots to facilitate metamagic with divine spells. That means you can take Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell) and keep Holy Star going all day as soon as you hit Cleric 13.

All in all, I think you might be happy with this combination.

[Eloel]

Given your exclusion of the Binder, Incarnate, Totemist, Swordsage, Crusader, Warblade, and a desire to deal physical (as opposed to magic) damage, my suggestions are Wildshape Ranger, Psychic Warrior, or Psychic Rogue (if you're willing to accept slightly weaker powers in exchange for Skills).

ToM is out - ToB is not. Swordsage/Crusader/Warblade are in, if I didn't misunderstand something.

[Kurald Galain]

Rogue 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer -> is alright.
Alternatively, Spellthief 1 / Wizard 4 / Unseen Seer. Among other things, this gives you armored casting for one feat.

[Eldariel]

Alternatively, Spellthief 1 / Wizard 4 / Unseen Seer. Among other things, this gives you armored casting for one feat.

Yeah, it's a trade-off between larger skill pool and more skill points vs. potential to pick up Steal Spells & Armored Casting: Light.

[Retech]

If you add White Dragonspawn Abomination template over the Venerable Loredrake Spellhoarding Kobold for +1 LA, you get +2 dex and con, flight, breath, various immunities and...

It says in the description that rare abominations can get extra sorcerer levels (read: wizard because of spellhoarding), which is based on a roll. However, you could sneak it past by working it into your backstory that you are one of the super rare ones that gets the max +3 sorcerer levels, (+2 spellcasting levels compared to the regular Venerable Loredrake Spellhoarding Kobold).

So start as a level 7 wizard (1 LA) as ECL of 8, with the casting ability of a level 12 wizard. This is even better if your DM plays with LA buyoff. You'll be some two spell levels ahead (while they're piddling about with level 5s, you'll be hitting big leagues with level 7 spells). And, you'll get level 9 spells at only 12 levels of wizard, allowing you to gish out if you need, or...epic spellcasting?

[Keld Denar]

If you are interested in Gishing, I'd like to suggest an Illumian (NaenHoon)Suel Arcanamach build.

At the level you're at, your build will be:

Duskblade2/Paladin4/SuelArcanamach1/AbjurantChampion1

The advantage to NaenHoon is that you are able to persist 2 spells/day by spending 12 TU attempts. Unlike Divine Metamagic, Illumian's don't have that pesky "divine spells only" restriction. Straight away, you'll have Persistant Wraithstrike and Enlarge Person, meaning you'll be a large wrecking machine. As you level up in AbjChamp, you'll want to persist one of: Greater Invisibility, Greater Mirror Image, or Greater Blinking. All are good. GI and GB allow you to always strike as invisible, and Greater Blinking means that walls are no longer something to really worry about. GMI is nice in that it constantly regenerates images. You start each fight with 9 of you (self + 8), and get one back each round at no action cost. Its pretty awesome. Keep with the Wraithstirke though, and PA to the moon.

Why Suel Arcanamach instead of something like a Sorcadin? A) Its prowass is already online by the time the game starts. Sorcadins have to wait until level 13 to get access to Turn Undead to power Illumian's abilities. B) When you get to Abjurant Champion5, you're CL will be equal to your BAB, which will be equal to Character Level-1. Then you add +6 on top of that for Tenacious Spells (Suel1), and get a Ring of Enduring Arcana for another +4. That means your CL to resist dispels will be equal to your level+9, and your DC to be dispelled is thusly 20+CL. That makes you virtually immune to dispels from nearly all foes around your level, and even those slightly above your level will only suceed on a very high roll. That means that your buffs are your buffs, and won't ever go away. Enjoy targetting foes flat footed touch AC (should be 10+deflection). PA for the HOUSE!

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Actually, I'd suggest Warlock if all you want is damage.

First off, it's Warlock6. Fairly plane-jane, I know.

Then you get Mindbender, so you can get Mindsight. So basically, you are your own radar array. Unless it's mindless, you can lock it up. That's actually something the rest of the party can't do.

Then just go dip Binder and go straight for Hellfire Warlock. Once you hit level 11, pick up Vitriolic Blast. Ignores SR, which means it ignores Globe of Invulnerability (vitriolic is higher than a 4th level equivalent) and AMF (becomes an instantaneous conjuration effect). Now you can hit 99% of everything which isn't explicitly tailored to be unable to be hit by you.

Suggestions for invocations:

Least:

Eldritch Glaive. This, plus a wand of divine power, is your key to massive damage output

For your other two, it depends on how you want to do things. Devil's Sight/Darkness is always fun if you want to focus on Hide checks to be unseen. Advantage is that it is immune to See Invis. And very few things can see through or ignore Darkness. Even if it is only a 20% miss chance, it still gives you effective HiPS, which lets you ghost around unseen at all times.

The other option would be Entropic Warding and See The Unseen. This gives you permanent See Invisibility, plus the 20% miss chance from ranged attacks, and Pass Without Trace as well as defeating tracking by Scent.

Lesser Invocations are, unfortunately, going to be eaten up by prerequisites. Charm Person is required for Mindbender, which is needed for Mindsight. Brimstone or Hellrime blast is required for HFW. That's two of your three Lesser invocations right there. That is a tradeoff of power for the ability to do really nasty things in a couple of levels.

Your last Lesser Invocation, however, should be chosen carefully.

Fell Flight I do not suggest. You can pick this up with a Fiendish Graft: Wings for 10k. Never do with character options what you can spend WBL on.

Flee The Scene is a lot of fun. It's a get out of trouble card. It's even better if you want to combo it with Shadowpounce.

Walk Unseen. Fun, but by now, how many opponents see invisibility already?

Voracious Dispelling. Dispel checks can be a hell of a lot of fun.

Beshadowed Blast. Fort save or Blind tacked onto your regularly scheduled blasting. Pretty cheap trick, but hey... cheap tricks are going to be your middle name.

Ask your GM how he feels about the Strongheart Vest vs Naberious debate, in regards to HFB. If he rules that Strongheart Vest is not making you immune to the damage, and is allowed, then your build will be Warlock6/Mindbender1/HFW1, with a feat in Shape Soulmeld (Strongheart Vest). You may also want to pick up one of the feats that gives +1 essentia you can invest into it to further help you against stat damage from attacks, but that's up to you.

If he shoots down Strongheart Vest, then go Warlock6/Mindbender1/Binder1, and going into HFW after that. Mind you, the Grinning Hound also makes you a good 'party face' at the same time, which is another job which hasn't been covered yet.

Either way, go HFW3 then dive straight into Legacy Champion to boost HFW damage output.

What you can do now:

* Party Radar
* Consistant, if sub-par compared to the rest of the party, damage output
* Party Face
* Take 10 on UMD. This opens up all kind of gear-related fun.
* Pretty good at not being seen, particularly in the company you are currently keeping.
* fairly mobile. With the graft, you can have Flight. With Flee The Scene, you have unlimited short-range teleportation.
* Fairly survivable. If you go with Devil's Sight/Darkness, you're always Hiding anyways. See invis can't see through that. Nor can True Sight. Only way to find you is to make a contested Spot check. Going the other route, you can always see invisible threats, still have a 20% miss chance vs ranged attacks, and cannot be tracked, even by scent. If they can't see you, they can't target you.

What you will get as you level:

* Damage output that will be consistently applied across the board. Nothing has energy resistance: eldritch. If the SR is too high (golems, or AMF), switch to Vitriolic. I just wish there was a way to change the flavor from acid, in the event you have something immune to acid AND SR: Yes damage. And you'll be throwing an awful lot of d6's in very short order.

* More Utility with various invocations. You get Insight at-will as a Dark invocation. That's pretty damn huge. Chilling Tentacles is always a lot of fun. Eldritch Cone to apply your double-handful of d6's to an area effect. Hindering Blast is always a gas, when comboed with cone. So is Utterdark Blast.

Sure, you won't be doing as much as an Ubercharger, although that gap will shrink significantly. But you'll be able to apply it at range or in melee, and you'll have far more survivability and utility.

[Raendyn]

Thanks again for your suggestions.

For some reason latest post come in a way... like i am a first timer around DnD..:smallmad:

Just put the abbreviations there and a quick reference, I am familiar with all kinds of cheese & uber-broken-ness. I just have never used ToB as my other friends don't use the book so i never had the chance to use it, till now.

I have completed my fighter-gish and it's like

Fighter 1/ Conjurer X/ Ab.Champion X/ Spelldancer to persist everything at lvl 11-12 depending on my DM...

Now i will take into cosideration the spellthief & will made a descent build around it. later I'll open ToB following the threads suggestions & probably checking a few handbooks in opt boards.

Thanks playgrounders. I am really greatfull! :smallsmile: