Heavy armor arcanist (PF)

[Das Platyvark]

Upon hearing a single sentence on Exalted, saying something to the effect that a sorcerer will the most heavily armored person in the group, I was inspired to try to build an arcanist (in pathfinder) who marches around in plate armor. I was thinking that the way to do it would be with a summoner, then layering on the buffing spells using either wands or casting prior to expected combat. Can ye optimizers of the playground give any advice, on this account?

[Zaq]

No idea if it works (or exists) in PF, but one of the easiest ways to do this in 3.5 is to be a dwarf and go into Runesmith, from Races of Stone. It pretty much gets this as a class feature.

[the clumsy bard]

nevermind swordsaged

[FMArthur]

Wasn't there a ring or something that let you switch between sets of gear with little action? That way you could cast without armor before engaging a foe and still get armor on in a reasonable amount of time.

[Cog]

I'd argue that an even easier way to do it is to simply take spells that don't have somatic components - at least, until something like Runesmith or ASF reduction comes online. I haven't looked at the distribution in PF, but 3.5 has a ton of nonsomatic spells in the 1-4th level range, and that might have carried over.

[Anderlith]

Duskblade, can be a good tank, but they mostly focus on damage

[wyrmsbane2]

is there a spellsword type class in pathfinder? the one from complete warrior can where pretty heavy armor with enough levels

[Psyren]

is there a spellsword type class in pathfinder? the one from complete warrior can where pretty heavy armor with enough levels

Yes, Pathfinder's Magus class (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus) can wear heavy armor at 13th level. It's more of a gish than a summoner though.

[Tvtyrant]

Use the Fighter ACF from Complete Mage?

[Cog]

Duskblade, can be a good tank, but they mostly focus on damage

Use the Fighter ACF from Complete Mage?
And this is why it's a good idea to put your system in the thread title.

[Tvtyrant]

And this is why it's a good idea to put your system in the thread title.

I saw Pathfinder and assumed 3.5 transparency, it was my bad...

[FMArthur]

Continuing 3.5 is the reason for Pathfinder's existence. Why would you not use its greatest asset in a game? :smallconfused:

[NecroRick]

Yes, Pathfinder's Magus class (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus) can wear heavy armor at 13th level. It's more of a gish than a summoner though.

Note that Gish has not just one, but two well defined and specific meanings, and the Magus qualifies for neither of them.

The original meaning is a Githyanki Fighter/Wizard

The more general meaning (and the sense you will see it tossed around here) is this - at level 20 you must have:
BAB higher than 15
Ninth level spells

Hence a Paladin is not a Gish.
A Cleric is not a Gish (close but no cigar).
A Wizard with two levels of fighter and a +5 longsword is not a Gish.

None of the myriad of classes that when maxed out get only 4th or 6th level spells are a Gish, regardless of how good their BAB is.

[Psyren]

The more general meaning (and the sense you will see it tossed around here) is this - at level 20 you must have:
BAB higher than 15
Ninth level spells


Duskblades and Psywars don't get 9ths, but people around here call them gishes all the time. As these are the boards I frequent, that is the definition I'm using - magic and melee.

[Blisstake]

Continuing 3.5 is the reason for Pathfinder's existence. Why would you not use its greatest asset in a game? :smallconfused:

Plenty of reasons.

1. Imbalanced content (PF is far from balaced, but some of the 3.5 material is absolutely astounding)

2. Bloated amounts of material to go through (many prefer simplicity)

3. Only wanting to use sources that were specifically meant to go with PF. (There may be unintended combinations with 3.5 material and content unique to PF)

[Akal Saris]

Plenty of reasons.

1. Imbalanced content (PF is far from balaced, but some of the 3.5 material is absolutely astounding)

2. Bloated amounts of material to go through (many prefer simplicity)

3. Only wanting to use sources that were specifically meant to go with PF. (There may be unintended combinations with 3.5 material and content unique to PF)

I think a lot of players are wary of perceived power creep from the 3.5 splatbooks. I know the vast majority of PF games that I see advertised are Paizo content only.

[subject42]

Upon hearing a single sentence on Exalted, saying something to the effect that a sorcerer will the most heavily armored person in the group, I was inspired to try to build an arcanist (in pathfinder) who marches around in plate armor. I was thinking that the way to do it would be with a summoner, then layering on the buffing spells using either wands or casting prior to expected combat. Can ye optimizers of the playground give any advice, on this account?

Do you want the heaviest physical armor possible, or the highest armor bonus?

If the latter, and you're just aiming for high AC over general character usefulness, I would suggest something like this:

Sorcerer 4 (Draconic)

Oracle 1 (Lore) - Sidestep Secret Revelation

Dragon Disciple 10

During those levels, take the arcane armor feats that allow you to reduce ASF as a swift action. The oracle levels will grant you the requisite proficiencies necessary to use them, as well as Charisma to AC.

Additionally, pick up an amulet of natural armor, since it grants an enhancement bonus to natural armor, which will stack with Sorcerer/DD.

The end result for that 15th level character is something like this:

Medium armor proficiency (with 20% lower ASF)

Charisma to AC

+5 Natural armor from Sorcerer/DD. (This will go up to +7 if you take another level of sorcerer.)

Assuming a +2 amulet, a +1 mithral breastplate, and a charisma of 20, that's a written AC of 29 at 15th level before dexterity.

The downside is you'd lose 4 caster levels, meaning in the end you'd only have 8th level spells.

It's not optimized to the level of a cleric abusing defending weapons and greater magic weapon, but it's what I can manage off the back of the envelope with PF core and no spells.

[NecroRick]

Duskblades and Psywars don't get 9ths, but people around here call them gishes all the time. As these are the boards I frequent, that is the definition I'm using - magic and melee.

It does happen occasionally, and people generally point out the error of their ways. (Usually because they've gotten casting ninth level spells and having a caster level of 17+ mixed up). I could be wrong... are duskblades considered tier 1 or 2? If so, I will owe you an apology. Please note the enormous gulf in casting between a level 20 wizard or cleric and a level 20 ranger, and tell me with a straight face they are the same thing. This is also why it has to be 9th level casting, 7th is good, and 8th is amazing, but why settle for 7th or 8th when you could just as well have 9th?

As I pointed out, if you're going to use your definition, Gish becomes a near meaningless term. Everyone becomes a gish; paladins, rangers, bards etc.

And if everyone is a gish, then no one is a gish...

[Psyren]

It does happen occasionally, and people generally point out the error of their ways.

You can point out mine all you like, but that won't stop me referring to Duskblades as gishes. Sorry in advance if it bothers you. :smalltongue:


I could be wrong... are duskblades considered tier 1 or 2?

You know that T3 and T4 are perfectly playable too right?


why settle for 7th or 8th when you could just as well have 9th?

You also know that most games don't start at level 17 anyway? And I have it on good authority that it's possible to have fun without 9th-level spells as well.


As I pointed out, if you're going to use your definition, Gish becomes a near meaningless term. Everyone becomes a gish; paladins, rangers, bards etc.

And Warblades, Barbarians, Rogues, Crusaders, Fighters, Monks, Swashbucklers, Knights... oh wait...

[NecroRick]

You know that T3 and T4 are perfectly playable too right?


You are misrepresenting my post and apparently misconstruing the whole point of making the gish/non-gish distinction in the first place.

{Scrubbed}

[Psyren]

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

While you're looking for it, look up the difference between someone disagreeing with your opinion and misreading it.

[Darrin]

Wasn't there a ring or something that let you switch between sets of gear with little action? That way you could cast without armor before engaging a foe and still get armor on in a reasonable amount of time.

Ring of Arming (5000 GP, MIC p. 122). Standard (command) action to activate, which makes it somewhat problematic to cast something and then activate it in the same round without mucking around with celerity-type stuff.

The Called property (2000 GP, MIC p. 9) also does something similar, but is still a standard action, and there's no easy way to get out of the armor quickly.


The best a Sorcerer/Wizard can generally do without dipping into Spellsword is:

Feycraft Githcraft Thistledown Nimbleness Mithral Breastplate +1
AB: +6 MDB: +6 ACP: 0 ASF: 0% SPD: 30 WT: 12# (Light)
Price: 9550 GP

or if you want to pay a smidgen more for a +2 bonus on Tumbling checks:

Feycraft Githcraft Thistledown Nimbleness Mithral Tumbler's Breastplate +1
AB: +6 MDB: +7 ACP: 0 ASF: 0% SPD: 30 WT: 12# (Light)
Price: 9800 GP

(The non-proficiency penalty = ACP, but if ACP = 0, then there's no penalty for being non-proficient.)

From there you can add a shield:

Githcraft Heavy Mithral Shield
SB: +2 MDB: -- ACP: 0 ASF: 0% SPD: -- WT: 6#
Price: 1620 GP

Githcraft Extreme Mithral Shield
SB: +3 MDB: -- ACP: 0 ASF: 0% SPD: -- WT: 12.5#
Price: 1630 GP

Hellforged Twilight Mithral Extreme Shield +1
SB: +4 MDB: -- ACP: 0 ASF: 0% SPD: -- WT: 12.5#
Price: 6030 GP

Githcraft Twilight Blended Quartz Gauntlet Shield +1
SB: +3 MDB: -- ACP: 0 ASF: 0% SPD: -- WT: 40#
Price: 44800 GP
(Yes, you have to pay by the pound, but allows the shield hand to make somatic gestures)


Dipping into Spellsword without losing caster levels can be tricky, but Wizard 10/Dragonslayer 1/Spellsword 1/Whatever +8 can do it with two feats (Expeditious Dodge, Iron Will) or one feat with Otyuph Hole (just Expeditious Dodge then). With ASF -10%, you can wear full plate, heavy plate, or even mechanus gear:

Feycraft Githcraft Thistledown Twilight Full Plate +1
AB: +9 MDB: +1 ACP: -7 ASF: 10% SPD: 20 WT: 45# (Heavy)
Price: 7000 GP

Feycraft Githcraft Thistledown Mithral Full Plate
AB: +8 MDB: +3 ACP: -4 ASF: 10% SPD: 20 WT: 20# (Medium)
Price: 11850 GP

Feycraft Githcraft Thistledown Twilight Mithral Heavy Plate +1
AB: +10 MDB: +2 ACP: -6 ASF: 10% SPD: 20 WT: 40# (Medium)
Price: 16350 GP

Githcraft Thistledown Twilight Blended Quartz Mechanus Gear +1
AB: +11 MDB: 0 ACP: -10 ASF: 10% SPD: 15 WT: 150# (Medium)
Price: 16750 GP

[Retech]

Rogues with minor magic talent = Gish? :smallannoyed:

I suppose that a Eidolon that can cast ray of frost 3/day is also a gish.

[Larpus]

Plenty of reasons.

1. Imbalanced content (PF is far from balaced, but some of the 3.5 material is absolutely astounding)

2. Bloated amounts of material to go through (many prefer simplicity)

3. Only wanting to use sources that were specifically meant to go with PF. (There may be unintended combinations with 3.5 material and content unique to PF)
Also, using anything from 3.5 claims for DM approval, since it's sort of "3rd party" to PF and sometimes needs to be converted, while something made for PF is usually an ok-go by default (at least that's how my DM rolls).

[Psyren]

Rogues with minor magic talent = Gish? :smallannoyed:

I suppose that a Eidolon that can cast ray of frost 3/day is also a gish.

{{scrubbed}}

[Curious]

{{scrubbed}}:

You have made me spill my smoothie all over myself. I hope you're happy.

[Prime32]

The easiest way to do this is just play a psion or wilder and call yourself a sorcerer. It's probably closer to an Exalted sorcerer anyway (and certainly closer to any magic-user not written by Jack Vance).