Substitution Levels

[SlashRunner]

I have a quick question about substitution levels. Do you get your CON modifier to HP for your substitution levels, or do you get nothing?

[Ravens_cry]

Do you mean racial substitution levels?
If so, I thought you got more hit points for those as normal, hit die, Constitution bonus and all.

[Drelua]

You get whatever hit die is listed, which may or may not be different from normal, with your CON, of course. Just like a normal level.

[SlashRunner]

How about levels gained via LA?

[IthroZada]

LA does not grant you any HP at all. Or BAB, or saves. It's a tax for awesome abilities gained from the creature.

[SlashRunner]

Mmkay then.

[SlashRunner]

Though, IMHO, the Aasimar's features aren't exactly worth giving up 20th level abilities and a full level's worth of HP, saves, and BAB.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Most LA are inflated and the worst offender in my opinion is the Hobgoblin, yes a net +4 to stat "might" seems powerful; but really they only get that. At least Aasimar and Tieflings get the Outsider type which is pretty nifty.

[Drelua]

Their abilities are quite weak. If you want that sort of flavour, I'd go with celestial or half-celestial, if you don't mind the high LA, or if your DM lets you use those LA buy-off rules from unearthed arcana, which I find rather idiotic.

[Big Fau]

Though, IMHO, the Aasimar's features aren't exactly worth giving up 20th level abilities and a full level's worth of HP, saves, and BAB.

Very few races are worth their LA, and almost none of those races are spellcasting-related.

[Psyren]

Though, IMHO, the Aasimar's features aren't exactly worth giving up 20th level abilities and a full level's worth of HP, saves, and BAB.

That's why you go with Lesser Aasimar instead.

But even with the regular one, even as a caster the game doesn't suddenly become unplayable because you have 19/20 progression.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Their abilities are quite weak. If you want that sort of flavour, I'd go with celestial or half-celestial, if you don't mind the high LA, or if your DM lets you use those LA buy-off rules from unearthed arcana, which I find rather idiotic.
If you don't mind me asking. Why?:smallconfused:


That's why you go with Lesser Aasimar instead.

But even with the regular one, even as a caster the game doesn't suddenly become unplayable because you have 19/20 progression.


They do put you one level behind on the Spell progression >_> <_<

[Drelua]

If you don't mind me asking. Why?

Not at all. I simply find it highly imbalanced that a character can pay experience to be considered a lower level than an otherwise identical character. Although, I suppose it would be fine as long as the experience was spent during the campaign, putting that character behind the rest of the party. It could also help get rid of the gap between CR and LA in things like a vampire, which is one of the reasons I play Pathfinder, so its not all bad i guess.

[Psyren]

They do put you one level behind on the Spell progression >_> <_<

Oh NOES! How will we rewrite reality by chanting gibberish now?? :smallwink:

[Dusk Eclipse]

But.... but.... The first commandment of optimization says
"Thou Shall not lose Caster levels"

:smalltongue:

[SlashRunner]

To be honest, the character I'm building (there's currently a thread about him that I put up for help on realizing the concept) is pretty sub-optimal, so I don't really care. I just was expressing my belief that the choice wasn't fantastic.

[Psyren]

To be honest, the character I'm building (there's currently a thread about him that I put up for help on realizing the concept) is pretty sub-optimal, so I don't really care. I just was expressing my belief that the choice wasn't fantastic.

In case it wasn't clear, Dusk and I were being tongue-in-cheek. It's true that LA is almost never worth it compared to more caster levels, but if that's what your concept calls for then +1 LA is an acceptable sacrifice.

Aasimar does have an LA 0 version though if being a full-on Outsider isn't as important to you.

[Ravens_cry]

Eh, the ability to change into some of the niftier critters in the game with lower level spells? That could be said to be worth a dead level.

[SlashRunner]

Eh, the ability to change into some of the niftier critters in the game with lower level spells? That could be said to be worth a dead level.

I never said it was necessarily a bad option in EVERY situation. However, the character I'm building is nearly 100% melee (his only spellcasting is from Paladin/Blackguard) so that doesn't change anything, really.

[Psyren]

Eh, the ability to change into some of the niftier critters in the game with lower level spells? That could be said to be worth a dead level.

True again, though you can do even that without LA as well.

[Ravens_cry]

True again, though you can do even that without LA as well.

I would rather be a quarter angel then, well, that. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20040613a&page=2)

[marcielle]

Goliath and Half-Giant are the only meelee races I know that are worth their LA. The ability to count as a size larger ONLY when it benefits you is pretty good as it gives you access to certain (awesome) stuff without the whole 'you cannot even fit in the dungeon' thing. That said, you should still try to get LA buyoff in your game. Sure you are behind now, but the quadratic(no, not exactly but you get the idea) scaling of XP means the difference is nearly negligible. After a while, you won't actually be a level lower unless your party gains exactly enough to level up.
Also, Goliaths are way cool.

[Serpentine]

Just throwing it out there: I have a houserule I'd quite like to see tested. For every point of LA, you can take a level in an NPC class (effectively counting each level of NPC class and each point of LA as half a class level).
I also have a more customisable LA0 version of Aasimar and Tieflings.
Both, clearly, need DM approval, but just thought I'd mention it...

[SlashRunner]

Just throwing it out there: I have a houserule I'd quite like to see tested. For every point of LA, you can take a level in an NPC class (effectively counting each level of NPC class and each point of LA as half a class level).
I also have a more customisable LA0 version of Aasimar and Tieflings.
Both, clearly, need DM approval, but just thought I'd mention it...

I'd like to see that Aasimar, as the only reason I'm using Aasimar right now is for flavour reasons.

[FMArthur]

Goliath and Half-Giant are the only meelee races I know that are worth their LA. The ability to count as a size larger ONLY when it benefits you is pretty good as it gives you access to certain (awesome) stuff without the whole 'you cannot even fit in the dungeon' thing. That said, you should still try to get LA buyoff in your game. Sure you are behind now, but the quadratic(no, not exactly but you get the idea) scaling of XP means the difference is nearly negligible. After a while, you won't actually be a level lower unless your party gains exactly enough to level up.
Also, Goliaths are way cool.

The reason you would use LA buyoff is what makes it unfair: it makes low LA virtually free, so why wouldn't you always grab a LA+1 race or template?

[marcielle]

Cos not ALL DM are cool with it.

[Serpentine]

I'd like to see that Aasimar, as the only reason I'm using Aasimar right now is for flavour reasons.It's more of a build guide than a proper template, so as I said you'll definitely need DM approval, and possibly input, first.
To start with, you need to choose your ancestor creature. I've had one character descended from a succubus, and another descended from... the celestial equivalent to a succubus, actually <.< But yeah, you have a specific individual outsider that gives your character their features.
So, once you've got that, you do this:

• +2 ancestor creature’s best ability, -2 ancestor creature’s worst ability.
• Resistance 5 to one energy the ancestor creature is immune or resistant to.
• +2 to the ancestor creature’s two best skills.
• Darkvision 60ft or low-light vision, if the ancestor creature had it.
• +4 to saves against one supernatural effect the ancestor creature is immune to (e.g. petrification).
• Possibly a penalty to reflect a vulnerability of the ancestor creature - e.g. vulnerability to an energy type, a penalty to saves vs. an effect.
• 1d4 distinctive physical features. This one is sort of optional. The character should look different because of their ancestry. If the player has something in mind and it's not too outrageous or too subtle they can just do that. Or, they can roll it up randomly: make a list of different physical features of the ancestor creature - extra limbs, skin colour, horns, eyes, teeth, etc, and possible different degrees of each (e.g. pink skin vs. bright red skin) - add a number to each, and roll which ones you've gotten. My succubus-elf, for instance, had pale skin, bright wild red hair, Gambit-like eyes, and little shiny black baby goat horns.

Several characters in my games have used this, and it's always gone fine.