Charisma based Spellthief/Mindspy

[Talionis]

I was wondering if anyone had ever had any luck with this combonation. Both are Charisma focused. You could get multiple casting in a day of Detect Thoughts by putting Detect Thoughts on your Spellthief casting list.

I also would love advice on optimizing for SAD Charisma.

[Talionis]

The main reason I liked it was the thought that by reading my opponents mind, I might arguably be able to predict the spell they most want to use next round and steal that spell.

[Raendyn]

The main reason I liked it was the thought that by reading my opponents mind, I might arguably be able to predict the spell they most want to use next round and steal that spell.

DnD do not support these kind of thematics. Although a great idea i admit i am gona create such a power in Exalted.

Sadly DnD can not support this strategy, the players mechanically, end what they did their last turn, just before they act in the current turn! No mater if the actions take place during their last turn and before anyone else plays after them.

Also, given the fact that DnD is a strategy game during battles, where all our characters are masterminds observing the grid the same way we do ( from above, all-seeing). So unless your own action during this turn is gona be responded with a counter-attack, or the effects of your action (if they take place) are gona trigger, an immediate-action spell to deal with them (maybe a reroll on a save?) you can't do much more....

[Talionis]

Well what I was thinking mechanically, is the DM would tell me one spell my opponent planned to use in the following round. It wouldn't have to be the eventually used spell, in fact it wouldn't be because if I successfully steal it, the NPC can't use it, but and they will in fact use some other spell.

I'm sure eventually higher level NPC will trick me and think about one spell on purpose to protect its use of the other spell, but that will be fun to role play out.

So what it would amount to is knowledge of one spell that I could try to steal from an opponent, so I don't go into my first steal spell attack blind.

[Graha013]

Well what I was thinking mechanically, is the DM would tell me one spell my opponent planned to use in the following round. It wouldn't have to be the eventually used spell, in fact it wouldn't be because if I successfully steal it, the NPC can't use it, but and they will in fact use some other spell.

I'm sure eventually higher level NPC will trick me and think about one spell on purpose to protect its use of the other spell, but that will be fun to role play out.

So what it would amount to is knowledge of one spell that I could try to steal from an opponent, so I don't go into my first steal spell attack blind.

Well, Spellthieves do eventually get the power to learn what spells of a certain level a caster has by stealing his first one (Discover Spell). So he steals a 5th level spell and automatically learns all the other spells the caster has of that level. I know you're wanting to know that before hand just by reading his thoughts just before hand, but I think this is the closest to that dynamic as you can get..

[Flickerdart]

Detect Thoughts takes 3 turns to prime. So you activate it, get "yep, there's thoughts", then a spell explodes your face. Next turn, you get the number of thinking creatures, and blown up again. Finally, you get to the third turn, where you are attacking the spellcaster's good save, and have now been blown up three times before you get a chance to counter.

[Jude_H]

The spellthief's spell level caps on stolen spells are enough to make this approach fizzle.

The are a few ways you could do something like this are:
-> Run it as an NPC. Neither Spellthief nor Mindspy levels are especially powerful, so you can just stack a bunch of them onto a recurring villain without flattening the party. This has the added effect of inflating the villain's HP and defenses, which is generally a good thing, if you want to make conflicts more memorable and drawn-out.
-> Run a Spellthief with Detect Thoughts. You'll have to sneak around for a while to get the brainscan, but the effects will mostly be the same. You could also research an instantaneous version of Detect Thoughts as a higher level spell without too much trouble.

[Talionis]

Detect Thoughts takes 3 turns to prime. So you activate it, get "yep, there's thoughts", then a spell explodes your face. Next turn, you get the number of thinking creatures, and blown up again. Finally, you get to the third turn, where you are attacking the spellcaster's good save, and have now been blown up three times before you get a chance to counter.

Couple ways around this:

First off, detect thoughts doesn't have to let your opponent know you are detecting his thoughts. I'm a spellthief who was counting on Sneak Attacking to be able to steal the spell in the first place. Hopefully, I'm able to hide for three rounds.

Second answer is the 4th level ability of Mindspy is Instant Mindscan, granting me all the information in the first round.

That Mosquito Strike skill trick would even theoretically allow me to steal the spell energy for Detect Thoughts without letting the monster know.

It may not allows work, but I think I can find ways to make it work most of the time.

[Talionis]

The spellthief's spell level caps on stolen spells are enough to make this approach fizzle.


I guess by this by this you mean that taking 5 levels of Mindspy will prevent me from taking the highest level spells my opponents might be playing with?

I hadn't thought of that. I thought Master Spellthief would fix that, but it really doesn't since Mindspy doesn't advance spellcasting.

[Jude_H]

I guess by this by this you mean that taking 5 levels of Mindspy will prevent me from taking the highest level spells my opponents might be playing with?
Well, you probably won't be stealing the highest level spells anyway.

Spellthieves are generally going to face casters of equal or higher level. Most casters advance spells at the wizard/cleric/druid advancement rate (all the casters that your strategy would be relevant against do, anyway). Spellthieves advance their thievery at Sorcerer rates.

Generally, a Spellthief is - at best - going to hork the second-highest level spell a target has available, if that target is a credible threat to the party. With 5 Mindspy levels, you can expect to be aiming to steal the fourth- or fifth-highest spell levels available to a target.

You could abuse high-CL classes like Chameleon and Ultimate Magus to push the level of spells stolen, but even then, you probably won't be able to recast them without a lot of finagling.

Or you could look at a Spell-to-Power Erudite with the Read Thoughts power. It would have to subdue an opponent before stealing its spells, but it might have completely outrageous improved results.