I want my magic items!

[jinete]

So, the DM in the game I'm playing in believes in random rolling of treasure which in 90% of the time results in us getting a bunch of useless crap. "So sell the stuff and buy what you need" I hear you say. Well the problem is that the inventory of the only(?!) arcane magic mart in the campaign is also randomly rolled.
Which means more useless crap.

Ok, so the owner can craft almost anything with arcane prerequisites, and the crafting times are greatly reduced, but there are five players and we're in a sort of a hurry with the world about to be overrun by demons and all.
This means that I have to put my requests in the crafting queue which means I don't get the stuff I need when I most need it. Which is now. :)

What provoked this rant is my request for The Armbands of Maximized Healing, a lvl 11 item, and the DM's reply that there isn't a divine crafter of a sufficient level to craft them. We're in the capital of a small kingdom.

My protests were met with a tongue in cheek reply "take the craft wondrous item feat". :/

Now this is a fairly powerful campaign, we're lvl 13 and pretty experienced players. We optimize quite a bit but don't push things too far, and "questionable" stuff gets nerfed with little or no fuss from the players, so I don't see the motive behind my DM's reasoning.
The game is mostly a dungeon crawl and I think that not getting items that are useful doesn't in any way add to the fun.

I'm pretty annoyed right now, my plan is to ask the party sorcerer to teleport us to every major town in the game world until I find a place where I can buy the bloody armbands :)

So who do you think is right, me or my DM? Except of course, you know, the DM always being right. :)

[Delwugor]

I don't see anything wrong in what the GM is doing.

[tyckspoon]

You're right, and that's mostly because you're at a level where you can basically get anywhere you want. Between Teleport, Plane Shift, and Gather Information/divination spells, if what you want is available for sale or commissioned crafting anywhere in the multiverse.. you can find out, go there, and buy it, all strictly within the confines of RAW abilities. The only way your DM can stop you getting what you want at this point sooner or later comes down to "I don't want you to have that, so it doesn't exist and nobody knows how to make it."

Edit: I think "No, because I hate the very concept of shopping for magic items" is probably going to be your DM's answer, but if it comes down to it- remind him that you can work together on items. You don't need to find a divine crafter, just an arcane crafter and a divine caster who will work with him. Somewhere on the entire planet, there is most likely a craft shop composed of a Wizard and a Cleric working together to offer a broader range of items, and if they're all that rare they're probably pretty easy to find out about (although if they're that rare, they probably have a long client list, and you might expect to pay significantly over list to get your item done in any reasonable time.)

[jinete]

You're right, and that's mostly because you're at a level where you can basically get anywhere you want. Between Teleport, Plane Shift, and Gather Information/divination spells, if what you want is available for sale or commissioned crafting anywhere in the multiverse.. you can find out, go there, and buy it, all strictly within the confines of RAW abilities. The only way your DM can stop you getting what you want at this point sooner or later comes down to "I don't want you to have that, so it doesn't exist and nobody knows how to make it."


Exactly. I think that it's a complete waste of time to go through all these steps just to get an item that could have been available right from the start. IMHO all that game time is better spent moving the plot forward.

[Tyndmyr]

Yup. Play the teleport game. Take some time to go find the stuff you want. Either no magic item crafter of this level exists...ooor, you can find the one who does.

In the first case, take leadership. Make your minion a dedicated crafter. Have him supply you with all your needs. Proclaim yourself the best magic item supplier in the universe. Win at everything forever.

In the second case, give money, receive item. Then return to your local item crafter, and point out how stupid he is for not using his spells to network with other item crafters for mutual benefit, and how ridiculously fast and easy it is to do so.

It's a waste of time, sure...but if he wants to make it annoying, it needs to be demonstrated to him that he's wasting your time.

[dethkruzer]

I agree with the above, at your levels you can reach just about any corner of the darn multiverse, and if absolutely have to, you can always go to sigil.

Of course if so happens to be that this piece-of-feces magic shoppe is the only one in sigil, then I assume you have either a very weird or control-freak DM, who should either be smacked in the face with a DMG, or get outright dethroned.

just my two coppers.

[Keld Denar]

Also, WBL is a guideline for challenges. Just because you have "wealth", doesn't mean you are equipped for those challenges. If your DM is pitting you at full EL+2 and +3 challenges with a hodgpodge of gear, he shouldn't be surprised when those encounters are REALLY challenging since you guys are effectively underleveled WRT wealth.

Your DM SHOULD either scale back his typical challenges until you get more personalized lewts, or make it easier for you to personalize your gear. Either is acceptable, but having a closet full of +1 longswords isn't gonna help you defeat a demon any more than a single +1 longsword would.

I'm not saying that your DM has to give you the gear you want (WBL is not obligatory), but if he doesn't, he should acknowledge that compared to the CR system, you guys are undergeared to handle standard level appropriate challenges and should plan appropriately.

[Delwugor]

I'm not saying that your DM has to give you the gear you want (WBL is not obligatory), but if he doesn't, he should acknowledge that compared to the CR system, you guys are undergeared to handle standard level appropriate challenges and should plan appropriately.
Give yourself a good point point.

[Jack_Simth]

So who do you think is right, me or my DM? Except of course, you know, the DM always being right. :)
He's correct. He built a world in a thematic manner, and you're seeing it.

Now, if it's the default setting, you could just Plane Shift to Sigil....

[ffone]

You're right, and that's mostly because you're at a level where you can basically get anywhere you want. Between Teleport, Plane Shift, and Gather Information/divination spells, if what you want is available for sale or commissioned crafting anywhere in the multiverse.. you can find out, go there, and buy it, all strictly within the confines of RAW abilities. The only way your DM can stop you getting what you want at this point sooner or later comes down to "I don't want you to have that, so it doesn't exist and nobody knows how to make it."

Edit: I think "No, because I hate the very concept of shopping for magic items" is probably going to be your DM's answer, but if it comes down to it- remind him that you can work together on items. You don't need to find a divine crafter, just an arcane crafter and a divine caster who will work with him. Somewhere on the entire planet, there is most likely a craft shop composed of a Wizard and a Cleric working together to offer a broader range of items, and if they're all that rare they're probably pretty easy to find out about (although if they're that rare, they probably have a long client list, and you might expect to pay significantly over list to get your item done in any reasonable time.)

Well said!

When I DM I encourage a similar player mindset - "you can find and have what you want as long as you an maintain verisimilitude" (podunk villages won't have MagicMarts, but if you Teleport to Waterdeep or Silverymoon or planeshift to The Sigil then sure).

The DM controls most of the world. The players just have their PCs, and magic items are a big part of the build (especially if you're not a prepared spellcaster or factotum and thus most of your build choices are committal until/unless retraining comes in). Flexible use of WBL adds a lot of flexibility and fun for players. If I want to make things more challenging, I'd rather do that in another way.

I play in Faerun, which is a very cosmopolitan, high-magic setting, so fluffwise I'm fine with it. My impression is that most DMs who say 'I run a gritty, low-magic setting' really mean 'I want more control over your PC' as evidenced by the fact that they will sometimes create McGuffins or BBEGs with ridiculous homebrew powers, or Convenient Swords of Awesome as treasure for their favorite players/PCs, and they typically allow full spellcasting (i.e. they don't mean low MAGIC they mean low-magic-item for nonmagicians).

[Hiro Protagonest]

Here's what sums up player vs DM situations best.

Rule 0 - The GM is Always Right: No matter how eloquently the Rules Lawyer states his case for the loophole he's trying to abuse, the GM always has the last word.

Rule 00 - ...But No Players Means No Game: Having the last word doesn't mean the GM can lord it over the players like a tin-pot dictator. Like any other governing body, abuse of power will eventually lead to a coup d'état.

[ffone]

Here's what sums up player vs DM situations best.

Rule 0 - The GM is Always Right: No matter how eloquently the Rules Lawyer states his case for the loophole he's trying to abuse, the GM always has the last word.

Rule 00 - ...But No Players Means No Game: Having the last word doesn't mean the GM can lord it over the players like a tin-pot dictator. Like any other governing body, abuse of power will eventually lead to a coup d'état.

lol, sig-worthy.

[Hiro Protagonest]

lol, sig-worthy.

I saw it in another thread. Apparently that guy was quoting it from somewhere else. So neither of us came up with it.

[NNescio]

I saw it in another thread. Apparently that guy was quoting it from somewhere else. So neither of us came up with it.

Disclaimer: Warning, link leads to TVTropes. NNescio will not be held responsible for hours of time potentially lost as a result of following other articles.

Linky. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GrandTabletopRulesList)

(I slightly modified it since more people are familiar with the conventional form of Rule Zero. Tvtropes lists it as Rule 00, with the other being Rule 000. Note that the listed Rule Zero is just a corollary of our Rule Zero.)

[PirateLizard]

Spoken, the Force has. A Temple of Corellon Larethian in a city much larger then yours, seek you must.

[Thurbane]

I don't see anything wrong in what the GM is doing.
Indeed - old school D&D was founded on the principle of finding random magical stuff and using it as best you could. 3.X does make characters more reliant on becoming "Christmas trees" (ability boosters, save boosters, AC boosters etc.), though, than in 1E or 2E.

[Frozen_Feet]

The GM is doing nothing wrong. As noted, you have the tools to go item hunting if you think it's worth the hassle - do it, or don't complain.

There is no imperative for every possible piece of equipment to exist in a conveniently acquirable form.

[jinete]

The GM is doing nothing wrong. As noted, you have the tools to go item hunting if you think it's worth the hassle - do it, or don't complain.

There is no imperative for every possible piece of equipment to exist in a conveniently acquirable form.

I disagree. I'm speaking strictly from the standpoint of "efficient" gameplay. I think all magic items that are not key to the plot (like a specific sword you can use to slay that nasty black dragon), or too exotic, or way above your character level, should be easily available.

I'm lvl 13 and asking for a lvl 11 item that is in no way special. IMO there's no point in wasting time (both in game and out of the game) to get it. There's no point in making a mini quest out of it. I say just let me buy it and get on with the important parts of the campaign.

[Earthwalker]

I would suggest before you start going on with a plan to get the item you want.

Teleporting / Plane shifting / taking leadership to get a crafter.

Talk to your GM and ask him what he is wanting and what he is trying to achieve in the campaign.

He may just want you to work for your item.
He may not want you to have the item. He may be a magic mart hater.
He might not understand what he is doing with his random roll ideal.

[Diarmuid]

Have you ever gone to a store and they were out of something?

Just because you want it doesnt make it readily available. You know why, supply and demand.

Common items are always available (Ring of Protection, Weapons +1, Cloak of Resistance). Things almost anyone can make moderate use of. More specialised items are going to be harder to come by (Chausible of Fell Power, Guantlets of Devastation, etc).

They might have it, they might not. Unless the GM is putting you against things you cannot handle because of your lack of specialised equipment then I dont see anything wrong with what he's doing.

If he put you against a ton of Lycanthrops or Demons and never let you get any silver, or cold iron weapons and some oil of align weapon then that'd be another thing entirely.

[NecroRick]

Try waiting.

No seriously. If you and the other players think the items you want are that important to your success, just go 'on strike' (or take an extended holiday) until your items are ready. Let someone else save the world.

[Ormur]

Random treasure and no magic shops doesn't seem like a very good mix. I always pick gear appropriate for the NPCs and try to keep the wishes of the players in mind when designing encounters. They can also buy most items in large cities or commission them but not everything is guaranteed to be in stock since there aren't any literal magic-marts. But save for high level or intentionally restricted items the players should be able to acquire everything they can afford eventually.

[Diarmuid]

The key to that whole previous post is "eventually". The OP is complaining because he cant get everything he wants right now.

Simply saying "No" without a decent plot/in-game reason is bad. Making something have to be earned (through time, effort, or cost, whatever) is not bad.

[Taelas]

I disagree. I'm speaking strictly from the standpoint of "efficient" gameplay. I think all magic items that are not key to the plot (like a specific sword you can use to slay that nasty black dragon), or too exotic, or way above your character level, should be easily available.

I'm lvl 13 and asking for a lvl 11 item that is in no way special. IMO there's no point in wasting time (both in game and out of the game) to get it. There's no point in making a mini quest out of it. I say just let me buy it and get on with the important parts of the campaign.

This is completely and utterly wrong. You're in the GM's campaign setting. If he feels an item shouldn't exist (because in the world he designed, there aren't any high-level divine crafters), then it is entirely his prerogative to say "You can't."

If it isn't that important, then... move on. Why are you making a big deal out of this item you say doesn't matter?

There is every point for the GM to make you go on a quest for this if that is how he wants to play it. The entire game is made up of things such as that.

[Zaq]

This is completely and utterly wrong. You're in the GM's campaign setting. If he feels an item shouldn't exist (because in the world he designed, there aren't any high-level divine crafters), then it is entirely his prerogative to say "You can't."
If it isn't that important, then... move on. Why are you making a big deal out of this item you say doesn't matter?

There is every point for the GM to make you go on a quest for this if that is how he wants to play it. The entire game is made up of things such as that.

The problem is that, from what the OP's said, the GM is not just saying "you can't." He's being coy about it. Out-and-out banning is one thing, but sort of disingenuous semi-banning is a lot more frustrating.

In short, if the GM doesn't want the party to have a certain item, he should say so. If he plays the runaround game, the party should do what they can to go find the item (as has been suggested many times in this very thread). If, at the end of that, the GM keeps making up excuses for why the party can't get it, then you have a problem.

Putting limits on what PCs can have is perfectly fine, but for crying out loud, be honest about it.

[darksolitaire]

So, the DM in the game I'm playing in believes in random rolling of treasure which in 90% of the time results in us getting a bunch of useless crap. "So sell the stuff and buy what you need" I hear you say. Well the problem is that the inventory of the only(?!) arcane magic mart in the campaign is also randomly rolled.
Which means more useless crap.


Do his NPCs also have random gear? Have you encountered any goblins with two-bladed swords "Damn I didn't take a feat to this! Waah!"

[Knaight]

This is completely and utterly wrong. You're in the GM's campaign setting. If he feels an item shouldn't exist (because in the world he designed, there aren't any high-level divine crafters), then it is entirely his prerogative to say "You can't."

However, this is variation from the default implicit setting of D&D 3.5. Which is fine, but one should inform the players of such variation ahead of time. It sounds like that wasn't done, which indicates a screw up, albeit a minor one.

[Jornophelanthas]

Edit: I think "No, because I hate the very concept of shopping for magic items" is probably going to be your DM's answer

I agree with this. And I agree with the OP's DM on that, because receiving what you want as a reward is usually more fun than getting it without any effort. (And spending some or even most of your vast accumulation of wealth is hardly an effort.)

The DM is not wrong to have a world without the "Magic Item Emporium - We Stock Everything!". However, the DM should also at least guarantee SOME magic items, such as healing potions and magical weapons or armor with AC bonuses appropriate to the party's level. Which your DM has done by providing the party with a crafter's regular services. If the party then swamps this crafter with work so that nothing gets delivered, it's not the DM's fault.

If you want a very specific magic item to complete your build, the DM is not required to have the first magic item salesman or crafter you meet just sell you one on the spot. He is very much entitled to make it a challenge, or a sidequest. Taking the craft feat yourself is the easy (yet expensive) way out, but gathering information about magic item crafters in faraway lands (and then traveling there) is also an option. Finally, if you find a crafter with the right feat but without the right (divine) spell, simply supply the spell. Either find a divine caster who will cast the spell every day of the crafting procedure (perhaps you or a party member, or hire a local cleric of sufficient level), or find a sufficient supply of scrolls with the appropriate spell and the means to cast them during the crafting process (i.e. a rogue or a low-level divine caster).

And finally, not every mighty wizard or cleric with an appropriate crafting feat will be in the business of crafting for profit, but they might still be convinced to craft for you. For example, the DM could rule that such a crafter won't work for you unless you (and the party) perform a favor (which also yields an appropriate discount to the crafting), such as to drive off the dragon / thieves guild / rival wizard that has been pestering him.

My impression is that your DM plays his world somewhat like this. So don't expect the "Magic Item Emporium - We Stock Everything!" franchise popping up on every street corner.

[Hiro Protagonest]

-snip-.

It's not like there's some rare crafted that a few people know about, the guy said that there's only one caster, an arcane one, who stocks anything at all. And both the treasure and that magic items that the shop has are just random crap because the DM insists on using the random treasure tables. It's horrible and frustrating. It's not like the DM is going to throw the item they want into the next dungeon's treasure or the magic shop, nope, he's just gonna roll randomly.

[Knaight]

It's not like there's some rare crafted that a few people know about, the guy said that there's only one caster, an arcane one, who stocks anything at all. And both the treasure and that magic items that the shop has are just random crap because the DM insists on using the random treasure tables. It's horrible and frustrating. It's not like the DM is going to throw the item they want into the next dungeon's treasure or the magic shop, nope, he's just gonna roll randomly.

Its not as if a game where the magic items gained are random is necessarily a bad game either. I'd say that D&D 3.5 doesn't work very well with both that and a lack of magic shops, and the concept is probably better realized elsewhere, but its a perfectly valid concept. Its merely one that people should know about in advance.

[Delwugor]

It's not like the DM is going to throw the item they want into the next dungeon's treasure or the magic shop, nope, he's just gonna roll randomly.
I'm alot worst than that. In my games nothing above a basic +1 type magic item are for sale, they must be earned. Either from defeating the owner or a side quest.
But my players are very well aware of that and I make adjustments so that they do not require much magic to complete adventures.

[Slipperychicken]

Pay 1020 gold (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm) for a CL17 casting of Heal to satisfy the spell requirement, and see if you can get a discount for it. Suggest to your crafter that he can greatly expand his business by partnering up with the cleric who cast it.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Pay 1020 gold (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm) for a CL17 casting of Heal to satisfy the spell requirement, and see if you can get a discount for it. Suggest to your crafter that he can greatly expand his business by partnering up with the cleric who cast it.
If DM says there's no divine caster making magic items, this probably isn't happening.

I'm alot worst than that. In my games nothing above a basic +1 type magic item are for sale, they must be earned. Either from defeating the owner or a side quest.
But my players are very well aware of that and I make adjustments so that they do not require much magic to complete adventures.

That's not worse, because this DM doesn't even let the owner have it in stock and there's only one magic item shop in the entire world.

[Keld Denar]

Its not BAD, per se, but the DM should understand that the party isn't performing at "standard operating efficiency", and adjust his challenges appropriately.

If the party is supposed to fight a demon with an AC of 34, but can only reliably hit a 31 because he's a 13th level PC with a +1 longsword, then that demon is going to be more challenging than it would be for a party with a +4 longsword. Similarly, if the foe has an average save DC of 25, and the PC with a Cloak of Resistance +1 (or no cloak at all) can only regularly get to 22, they are gonna be in a real tough boat. Yea, they can still win (especially with smart tactics), but the enounter was still more difficult than advertized on the CR. The CR system anticipates that a PC will be utilizing a decent portion of their WBL to their combat role. If most of their WBL is tied up in junk that doesn't help their combat role, or they are significantly under WBL, then what would normally be an appropriate encounter is going to be a much tougher encounter. If the DM sets the party against a couple too many "tough" encounters because he underestimated their strength, they'll probably have a couple PCs get killed (which happens, I know, but shouldn't happen AS often on routine encounters).

Again, its not bad if the DM wants to restrict access to magic items, but he just needs to be aware of the effect that restriction has on the party's ability to handle an X encounters of EL Y which may result in encounters being more challenging than estimated.

[DiBastet]

That's why I give less wbl and level based static modifiers and banned them from items. Everyone gets +x things as they level, and the items don't exist, so people just need to go shopping for the things they Want, not the things the Need.

Works very well.

[NNescio]

That's why I give less wbl and level based static modifiers and banned them from items. Everyone gets +x things as they level, and the items don't exist, so people just need to go shopping for the things they Want, not the things the Need.

Works very well.

So everyone gets an improved version of VoP with less restrictions (partial WBL instead of full)?

That's... actually not a bad idea.

[Zaq]

That's why I give less wbl and level based static modifiers and banned them from items. Everyone gets +x things as they level, and the items don't exist, so people just need to go shopping for the things they Want, not the things the Need.

Works very well.


So everyone gets an improved version of VoP with less restrictions (partial WBL instead of full)?

That's... actually not a bad idea.

I have toyed with the idea of letting players choose specific items they really want/need for a specific build (basically giving them free magic mart access at chargen, but not thereafter), applying inherent bonuses like this, and using truly random loot. Of course, I'm not planning on DMing any time soon, so I don't know how it'd really work out (probably not all that well), but I think it'd be possible, if a bit of work.

[opticalshadow]

im normally a wizard or a dread necro. so i have leverage against pain in the ass dm's/


when i get arbitrary things tossed at me liek this, at my level. i tend to make my dm's job just as much of a nightmare as mine is. not in a mean way, or gamebreaking, but ill start doing more things that requirer more work for the dm, or i may do something that ruin his plan utterly, even if its just me convincing the party to se tup shop and start a buiness in town until we get bored, and then play three sesssions of crafting and selling.


so play the teleport game, disquise yourselves and summon mounts and sell them in cities, make walls of gold and buy a couple of towns, have your undead army start river daning outside city walls, so your dm has to deal with an army of undead.

jsut remind him that tedious arbitrary rules can go both ways.

Edit: i would like to say, i dont have a problem with random loot, in encourage it. and i dont have a problem with magic items being limited. but as a DM i do not see a point in making a party teleport the realms for a simple item, unless it proves some point. if they are just going to safly go city to city, why make them spend an hour to do, just give it to them.

if your going to make an item hard to get, do more then just the lame game of which store has it.

[Jornophelanthas]

If DM says there's no divine caster making magic items, this probably isn't happening.
The party is free to find a divine caster to cast the required spell once per day. (For example, if the spell is "Heal", and the item cost is 13,000 gold, then the "Heal" spell needs to be cast once every day of the 13 days it takes to craft the item. The crafter need not cast the spell himself.)


That's not worse, because this DM doesn't even let the owner have it in stock and there's only one magic item shop in the entire world.

1. Magical items are not and should not ever be in stock, just like airplane manufacturers never keep fighter airplanes in stock. The things are too powerful not to use, and too expensive not to make to order. Besides, the XP cost in crafting them means that the crafter literally puts something of himself into the item, meaning it's more than just a chore to craft.

2. There is only one magic item CRAFTER NPC in the entire KINGDOM that the players KNOW OF. That's hardly the same thing.
The players could take a crafting feat themselves, or go looking for another crafter, or go looking for tales about the item they want/need already existing, and go on a quest to find it / buy it / steal it.
The DM has not forbidden the players to have a specific magic item. He's just not handing them everything they want on a silver platter.

Also, since the OP mentioned that the world they live in is facing an impending demon invasion, it could well be that the DM intentionally gives the players only a single crafter and a deadline, with the argument that they need to set up their kingdom's defenses and equip themselves as best they can WITH LIMITED MEANS. A sense of urgency and the need to improvise adds to the tension of a good story.

[DiBastet]

So everyone gets an improved version of VoP with less restrictions (partial WBL instead of full)?

That's... actually not a bad idea.

Why thank you! It's always good to read this.