Shadowcasting... how does it work again?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Okay, I've gone over the rules a couple of times, I purchased ToM mostly for Binder stuff really, and the concept theoretically fascinates me, particularly with the ability to use several (Su) rather than (Sp) abilities. However, after having read it multiple times, I'm still at a loss as to how it mechanically works...

Perhaps someone who has used them and is more familiar with the mechanics could give me some pointers? I did notice the difference on the 'per day' to be 'per mystery, per day', so I get to use all of my mysteries at least once a day, which is good. But other than that... I'm all but clueless.

[Tvtyrant]

So here is how I understand it: You pick a mystery each level. The mystery must be either in a path you have already started and advances that path or be the first mystery in a path. You can only pick paths up to your level of skill (ie. lesser, moderate and greater types (not their actual names but what they do)depending on your level, but you can pick lower ones if you want).

At low levels the mystery you pick only has one use. So if you pick Steel Shadow you can cast it once per day. When you hit the point that you get the next level up (moderates) all of your lesser mysteries are usable twice a day and as an SLA rather than a spell. Your moderates are 1 per day spells. If you pick a lesser mystery you automatically get two uses at this point per day.

Now you have hit the level where you get greater mysteries, and your moderates become 2/day SLAs. Your lesser mysteries become 3/day SU abilities. If you pick a lesser mystery at this level you get 3 uses as an SU, if you pick a moderate mystery you get a 2/day SLA and if you pick a greater mystery you get it as a 1/day spell.

[Aricandor]

Right! Quick summary.

You have three grades of mysteries (the actual spell level doesn't matter for this particular division); Apprentice, Initiate and Master. Under each of these levels, there are a number of paths, each consisting of three mysteries.

At 1st level, you can learn 1st level Initiate mysteries, and you cast them as arcane spells, once per day each, including spell failure and everything that goes with it.

At 7th level, you can start learning Apprentice grade mysteries. These are cast as arcane spells once per day, while all Initiate mysteries you know and learn from there on are treated as spell-like abilities castable twice per day each.

At 13th level you can start learning Master grade mysteries. Again, these are cast as spells once per day each. Your Initiate grade mysteries known and learned from there on become spell-like, castable twice per day each. Your Apprentice grade mysteries become Supernatureal, castable three per day each.

With me so far? Okay, because now it gets fussier.

The paths, as established, contain three mysteries each, one the equal of 1st/2nd/3rd (Apprentice), 4th/5th/6th (Initiate) or 7th/8th/9th (Master) spell level respectively. You can, practically speaking, learn mysteries of a particular spell level starting on the same level as a wizard normally would (1st at 1st, 2nd at 3rd, 3rd at 5th level and so forth). The mysteries on each path must be learnt in order; you must know the 1st level mystery to learn the 2nd level, and both the 1st and 2nd level mystery of a path to learn the 3rd level one. This pattern goes on for the 4/5/6 (must know the 4th to learn the 5th...) and 7/8/9 "spell level equivalent" ones.

Now, since you always learn 1 new mystery each level, and you gain one bonus feat per two paths you know mysteries of (even if you just know one in a path, it counts for the purpose of this calculation) the choice parts in this become as such:

a) As lower grade mysteries become easier to cast, you can circumvent armour failure chances and even spell resistance by choosing mysteries of lower grades. I.e. at 13th level, your Apprentice mysteries ignore spell resistance, being supernatural.

b) Due to bonus feats and the limited choice, you can choose either to focus and fill out paths to gain more powerful mysteries, or cherry pick from paths (keeping in mind the rule of mysteries having to be picked in order) and gain some more bonus feats. This is actually surprisingly useful, since the Favoured Mystery feat "upgrades" a mystery picked (from Spell to spell-like, from spell-like to supernatural) and adds another set of uses per day to it (so for one cast as a spell, this is 1 more use per day, spell-like two uses and supernatural three additional uses).

The system is vastly overcomplicated, but I'm a big fan of the flavour and concept as well. That said it works out pretty wince-worthy in actual play, since the number of mysteries per day you actually end up able to cast is criminally low at low level. The designer himself even suggested a few houserules to fix it, notably ignoring the "paths must be chosen in order" rule, in favour of simply following the wizard pattern and a few other things I can't recall off the top of my head. My own houserules include additional uses per day (double base), as well as more mysteries known in general (+2 learnt at even levels instead of +1). 12 uses per day of a Favoured Mystery might sound quite a lot, but given this requires significant feat investment and generally a lower grade mystery to begin with until very high levels, I haven't found this to be particularly problematic. :smallsmile:

[Tvtyrant]

If I was going to fix it I would actually give each path a power as a weaker form of a domain power that you gain along with the feat when you finish the path.

[Rogue Shadows]

If I was going to fix Shadowcasting...I'd make the Cleric, Druid, Sorcerer, and Wizard weaker and call it a "fix." Shadowcasting is more or less fine as-is when compared to the non-"we can reshape reality with a word" classes.

Or you could use the Tome of Shadow (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74519).

[Starbuck_II]

Did I miss you guys mentioning you can pick same one twice or more?
It increases the number.

A 1st level mystery taken twice when they become supernatural = 6 uses/day (3 for both mystery taken).

Pearls of power (shadow ones in book) or taking mystery more than once are required if you need a highest level mystery more than once/day usually.

[Zaq]

Did I miss you guys mentioning you can pick same one twice or more?
It increases the number.

A 1st level mystery taken twice when they become supernatural = 6 uses/day (3 for both mystery taken).

Pearls of power (shadow ones in book) or taking mystery more than once are required if you need a highest level mystery more than once/day usually.

That is legal, yes, but rarely the best course of action. Part of the problem is that the way the book's written, you must know two mysteries of level N to learn a mystery of level N + 1. You could argue it, but I really don't think that learning, for example, Flesh Fails twice counts as knowing "two mysteries" of that level, you know? So doubling up on mysteries, unless you're sacrificing one of the highest mysteries in a given category (3rd, 6th, or 9th level), pretty much permanently puts you a spell (er, mystery) level behind.

It can be done. But it's rarely worthwhile.

[Starbuck_II]

That is legal, yes, but rarely the best course of action. Part of the problem is that the way the book's written, you must know two mysteries of level N to learn a mystery of level N + 1. You could argue it, but I really don't think that learning, for example, Flesh Fails twice counts as knowing "two mysteries" of that level, you know? So doubling up on mysteries, unless you're sacrificing one of the highest mysteries in a given category (3rd, 6th, or 9th level), pretty much permanently puts you a spell (er, mystery) level behind.

It can be done. But it's rarely worthwhile.

I'd definately argue 2 flesh fails is 2 3rds known because it is.

[Zaq]

I'd definately argue 2 flesh fails is 2 3rds known because it is.

2nds, but that's not the point. I say that the text is ambiguous enough to argue either side. Which means that I don't think you're wrong; I just wouldn't take it for granted that you're right.

Of course, even if it does count as knowing two different mysteries of the appropriate level, you're still hosing your ability to progress in another path (again, unless you're sacrificing one of your 3rds, 6ths, or 9ths).

[ShneekeyTheLost]

There are some cute tricks you can play with it, though.

Theoretically, you can take Favored Mystery twice on a Master level mystery to have a 9th level spell as a (Su) ability.

Also, at level 14, you get unlimited use of Fundamentals. Since they're supposedly the cantrips of shadowmagic, that doesn't seem so powerful. However, Caul of Shadows grants a deflection bonus to AC, which you can keep up at all times, making it exceedingly useful. Umbral Hand is also very 'handy' to have. Sight Obscured gives an untyped +5 bonus to not being detected.

By itself, Shadowcasting doesn't seem to powerful. However, if Gestalted, it can make some surprisingly versatile combos.

Also, do the higher paths require lower paths? For example, do I need all three Ebon Whispers mysteries to get into Ebon Roads mysteries?

It also seems like you can get a bunch of bonus feats that can be used to make the character more useful.

[Psyren]

Fluffwise, when Mysteries become SLA/Su, it means that your shadow is doing all the work while you stand perfectly still and silent. Really creepy and cool.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Shadowsmith, while failing completely and totally in doing anything useful, seems like an interesting paring with something like the Habadasher build, being able to make anything out of shadows

I also like having a lot of (Su) abilities at my fingertips. It's just too bad the class as a whole doesn't get anything more useful to do by itself. It's got a lot of utility, but by itself, doesn't seem like it adds much to a party.

It looks to have some wonderful ability to be paired with, say, Warlock, which has staying power but little utility.

[Tvtyrant]

Shadowsmith, while failing completely and totally in doing anything useful, seems like an interesting paring with something like the Habadasher build, being able to make anything out of shadows

I also like having a lot of (Su) abilities at my fingertips. It's just too bad the class as a whole doesn't get anything more useful to do by itself. It's got a lot of utility, but by itself, doesn't seem like it adds much to a party.

It looks to have some wonderful ability to be paired with, say, Warlock, which has staying power but little utility.

I suggest this in an earlier thread; it would boost both of them by giving it both nova abilities and duration.

[Zaq]

Shadowsmith, while failing completely and totally in doing anything useful, seems like an interesting paring with something like the Habadasher build, being able to make anything out of shadows

I also like having a lot of (Su) abilities at my fingertips. It's just too bad the class as a whole doesn't get anything more useful to do by itself. It's got a lot of utility, but by itself, doesn't seem like it adds much to a party.

It looks to have some wonderful ability to be paired with, say, Warlock, which has staying power but little utility.

I have stated several times (not in this thread, of course) that, speaking as someone who has never played in gestalt, Warlock/Shadowcaster seems like one of my top choices for what to play if I ever do end up playing gestalt. The only glaring weakness in that combo is a lack of solid swift actions, which are, as I understand it, rather critical in the ever-so-tight action economy of gestalt.

Sure, it's no Artificer//Factotum, but what is?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I have stated several times (not in this thread, of course) that, speaking as someone who has never played in gestalt, Warlock/Shadowcaster seems like one of my top choices for what to play if I ever do end up playing gestalt. The only glaring weakness in that combo is a lack of solid swift actions, which are, as I understand it, rather critical in the ever-so-tight action economy of gestalt.

Sure, it's no Artificer//Factotum, but what is?

That depends on what level of optimization you are working with. You've still got Quicken SLA for your invocations, and the quicken mystery Metashadow feat. I'm sure you can think of other things you can do as Swift actions.

Allowing mysteries to become SLA/SU abilities based on caster level rather than shadowcaster level would also vastly increase their usefulness as a dip...

[Psyren]

Shadowsmith, while failing completely and totally in doing anything useful, seems like an interesting paring with something like the Habadasher build, being able to make anything out of shadows

Shadowsmith gets a boost if you use the adaptation (ToM pg. 135) which lets them form items out of pure force.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Shadowsmith gets a boost if you use the adaptation (ToM pg. 135) which lets them form items out of pure force.

True, but it still feels like a Soulknife to me... with all the inherent Fail implied by that comparison.

[IthroZada]

True, but it still feels like a Soulknife to me... with all the inherent Fail implied by that comparison.

The obvious solution is to make a Soulknife//Shadowcaster//Adept//Truenamer//Warlock.

[gorfnab]

Shameless plug for my shadowcaster handbook in my sig.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Shameless plug for my shadowcaster handbook in my sig.

One thing I would disagree with:

Caul of Shadows is, in my opinion, one of the most powerful of the Fundamentals. Deflection Bonus to AC is dead useful, because it applies both while flat-footed and against touch attacks. And, at level 14, it's an 'always on' buff, since you can use it an unlimited number of times. It's like a free Ring of Protection.

Also, while there are several Mysteries that involve being unseen or hiding, the class itself gains zero benefit for being unseen.

[Psyren]

Also, while there are several Mysteries that involve being unseen or hiding, the class itself gains zero benefit for being unseen.

I disagree; recall that the only way to identify a mystery as it is being cast is to witness the caster (or her shadow), because they have no verbal or material components. What cannot be seen nor heard cannot be countered. With the right mysteries, they won't even be able to tell where your magic is coming from; nothing protects a caster better than unawareness.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I disagree; recall that the only way to identify a mystery as it is being cast is to witness the caster (or her shadow), because they have no verbal or material components. What cannot be seen nor heard cannot be countered. With the right mysteries, they won't even be able to tell where your magic is coming from; nothing protects a caster better than unawareness.

Only some of their abilities do not have somatic/verbal components. Anything still considered a spell (your most powerful abilities) still does. Anything not relying on sight to find you still finds you just as easily.

[Rogue Shadows]

Only some of their abilities do not have somatic/verbal components. Anything still considered a spell (your most powerful abilities) still does. Anything not relying on sight to find you still finds you just as easily.

Actually, you're partially mistaken: Page 112 under the "mysteries and paths" entry of ToM for the Shadowcaster specifically states: "when you are capable of casting only apprentice mysteries, you cast them as though they were arcane spells. They all have somatic components, armor-based spell failure chance, and are subject to interruption (but they do not require material components, foci, or verbal components)"

Hence why there is a Still Mystery metashadow feat, but not a Silent Mystery one.

[peacenlove]

Only some of their abilities do not have somatic/verbal components. Anything still considered a spell (your most powerful abilities) still does. Anything not relying on sight to find you still finds you just as easily.

Partially wrong. Mysteries, even the most powerful ones, have no verbal components. Also they get a -4 to spellcraft to be identified, and if you get Still Mystery (A must have feat if you want to wear any type of armor and/or cast more easy on grapples), then they also do not need somatic components, making your mysteries unidentifiable.
Note that your shadow takes care of your gestures, so with Still Mystery your shadow doesn't move at all.

For the second matter, get the Darkstalker feat. If you select your paths carefully, you will get a lot of bonus feats, freeing your level up slots accordingly.

EDIT: Partially ninja'ed by Rogue Shadows

Also something I discovered recently: With the right mysteries (Afraid of the dark, shadow evocation, dancing shadows, sight obscured and/or sight eclipsed) a shadowcaster can enter the Shadowcraft mage prestige class and benefit normally from the class at 7th level as intended. Sadly he doesn't benefit from its more powerful feature because there is no Silent image mystery.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

As an amusing thought, Shadow Evocation Greater also nets you access to Contingency (a 6th level Evocation spell). All you need is a spell of 5th level or lower which can grant you a standard action to use your version of Time Stop, and suddenly the Shadowcaster gets a *LOT* harder to kill...

[Rogue Shadows]

Exactly. Shadowcaster is a class that needs a little more thought than some others, but it is quite powerful in the right hands.

[Psyren]

Only some of their abilities do not have somatic/verbal components. Anything still considered a spell (your most powerful abilities) still does. Anything not relying on sight to find you still finds you just as easily.

As others pointed out, all Mysteries are silent. So hiding is not only viable, it is encouraged - particularly when you get the ability to see in magical darkness. You target your opponents, they remain oblivious.

[gorfnab]

One thing I would disagree with:
Caul of Shadows is, in my opinion, one of the most powerful of the Fundamentals. Deflection Bonus to AC is dead useful, because it applies both while flat-footed and against touch attacks. And, at level 14, it's an 'always on' buff, since you can use it an unlimited number of times. It's like a free Ring of Protection.

Did not notice that. Too bad it caps out at a +4 bonus. Before level 14, however having a Ring of Protection might be a better idea. I will make a note of that in the handbook.