Necromancer Decisions

[Cornelius Grim]

As I consider making a necromancer character, I am struck with many decisions. I have to make a choice between 3 classes. A straight Death/Magic Cleric would be nice, because I was hoping to gain Create Undead at level 12, and I'd get Animate Dead at level 5, which would be very nice. Another choice is Mystic Theurge. I'd only get Animate Dead at level 8, which is the same as a Sorcerer, but I'd have to wait until level 15 to get Create Undead, and we generally stop a group from progressing around level 13 or so. And last but not least, a Dread Necromancer. This seems like a good choice, but I enjoy the versatility of the Mystic Theurge, and the fact that I've never played a divine caster seems cleric seem interesting, but the fact that with a Dread Necromancer I could have a large group of undead seems nice. We'll be starting at level 1, in a new group of characters next week. Any pros and cons of each class I should know, aside from Mystic Theurge's slow spell progression?

[Captain Caveman]

I'd say go with the divine caster for the ability to create more powerful undead as well as have access to rebuke/control undead. You will also be able to desecrate ground which will give you the ability to control more HD of undead, which can really give you home field advantage if you know where you are going to fight. Another thing you might want to look into is getting the corpse crafter feats from Libris Mortis if you DM is allowing it.

A combo I did on my evil cleric necromancer was took: Corpse Crafter giving all my undead +4 Str and +2 hp per HD. Destruction retribution undead you make if killed explode in 10 foot area for 1d6 + 1d6/2 HD ref 15 save for half of negative energy. Then you take tomb tainted soul which makes you healed by negative energy and harmed by positive. So every time your opponent kills one of your undead they are hurt by negative energy and all your undead and yourself are healed by the exploding undead around you.

[GoblinArchmage]

The delayed spell progression of the Mystic Theurge is apparently pretty crippling, not to mention it doesn't improve your rebuking. You would be able to control more minions with one of the other two options, in addition to better spellcasting than the Theurge. If you go Cleric, you might consider the Undeath and Deathbound domains, which grant abilities that improve your undead control, rather than the Death domain, which grants a touch attack.

[Cornelius Grim]

Another class I realized may work is Warlock. Animate Dead at 6th level and I could homebrew Create Undead as greater invocation. So far, cleric sounds best, but I also enjoy warlock. So now it's between cleric and warlock. I personally like warlock, but a cleric would be a new thing to try... Hmm...

[Captain Caveman]

Another advantage of cleric is even if you do specialize undead in your build you still have a good bit of versatility. You have access to all the spells so on any given day you could be a healer/buff bot or a fair bit of damage or Dr. Frankenstein wandering around poking every dead thing you find so it moves. The only thing scarier than a cleric who has had 4-5 rounds to buff himself is a cleric who has had 4-5 rounds to buff the fighter.

[Malimar]

Why Mystic Theurge instead of True Necromancer? I'm given to understand they both blow chunks, but isn't True Necromancer basically "Mystic Theurge, plus undead-related class features"? Am I missing something?

EDIT: Yes, I was missing something: four out of the fourteen levels advance only one side or the other. My bad.

[NecroRick]

For me the defining feature of Dread Necromancer compared to other similar alternatives is that they have actually gone to the trouble of giving you something to do while you wait. You may want to talk to your DM about whether the following combos work:

DN negative energy attacks + tomb tainted soul = infinite (slow) healing

I like this one because while you're still threatened by combat (you're not invincible by any stretch of the imagination), you can recover from individual combats, which helps make up for relatively low hit points.

Stacking damaging energy spells (cause light wounds) with charnel touch. this gives you something to do with your level 1 spells, otherwise they are mostly useless.

Also, DN is a charisma based class, so you may end up being the party 'face'.

But charnel touch + DR (at level 2?) means your early role in combat is likely to be melee.

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Now as for the Warlock, he's another good choice at low levels, because like the DN you have 'something to do'. It's not like you're a doormat just waiting for 8th level before you can make a contribution. You can contribute your Eldritch blast in combat.

So looking at these two so far the choice kind of depends on whether your party needs another meat shield? Or do they have enough tanks already and you can go do ranged attacks instead?

One combo to be mindful of (ie ask your DM) is the various 'corpse-crafting' feats. There's a couple of things out there that add enhancement bonuses to your skellies and zombies. The problem is, they don't stack (because they're enhancement bonuses). So the DN gets a temporary benefit from corpse-crafting, and then some of it becomes redundant at level 8.

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Other things to look out for are 'early entry' into being a master of the undead. Eberron has a prestige class where they (with the other necros permission) specifically go and rebuke someone else's minions in order to stock up on their own. As a DN you could do this, as a warlock it would be harder. The DN also gets access to the Desecrate spell (using advanced learning), which is pretty good.

But at a low level there is nothing to stop you (other than cost) from getting a wand of animate dead, or a scroll of animate dead and then using that before you get your 'proper' spell or spell-like ability

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Another option is to be an 'accidental' necromancer. Take some other spell-casting class with Fell Drain Metamagic Feat and slap it on your spells. Ta da! Instant negative level (which does 5 hit points damage over and above the damage of the spell - if I'm reading the SRD correctly). Easy Metamagic it down to a +1 adjustment.

Now to get rid of that extra +1 the easiest option is to go Cleric. Then use Divine Metamagic to burn a turn attempt to get rid of that last +1. (I know, I know, DMM is normally reserved exclusively for destroying game balance, but there isn't technically any reason why we can't use it for something that isn't game-breaking, even if that is a bit weird by the standards round here).

Other alternatives might be the various ways of getting the Metamagic Spell Triggers...

Anyway, what are some really nasty low level spells for Fell Drain? How about Heat Metal? Booyah! Can do multiple targets, practically a guaranteed kill. Nice. Oh wait, you have to be a smelly druid... unless... you take the Sun domain! Hooray!

Okay, what about some other nasty spells for Fell Drain... how about magic missiles? But wait, that's not a cleric spell... or is it? Ta da! We slap on Force domain and now it is!

So you're a Cleric of Sun and Force and you go round zapping people with negative energy... :D Do you see what I mean about an 'accidental' necro? :D

[Cornelius Grim]

Hmm... This Fell Drain thing intrigues me and I wish to learn more. What book is that in? Heroes of Horror? Also, I was more hoping to be a.. Death Cleric, than a force and sun cleric. We could improvise to find a way to make it still work though. Certain domain spells... Does magic domain get magic missile? Btw, Necro Rick, those are a LOT of good ideas, thank you so much! Those gave me something to think about. :smallsmile:

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I really like Dread Necro, particularly because of some of the combos you can pull off...

For example, you can easily tweak their aura of fear (which has no HD cap on affecting) by doing the following:

* at 12th level, use your Advanced Learning to pick up the spell Aura of Terror, which increases the radius to 15', and increases the level of fear to Frightened

* Pick up the metamagic feat Fell Frighten to increase fear level to Panicked on a failed save, and even applies Shaken if they make the save (there is no saving throw vs Fell Frighten effect, so it applies even if the rest doesn't)

* Pick up the feat which doubles your aura.

You now have a 30' radius of Save or Panicked (and even if you save, you're still Shaken, unless immune).

And this is just by walking around and being that damn evil. You can then take Corpsecrafter feats to make your minions nastier as you see fit. Or simply use Fell Drain + some area effect spell to start a Wightocolypse.

Dread Necro cannot get Desecrate from Advanced Learning, because it is an Evocation, not a Necromancy spell. Fortunately, it comes in a ring form, although I don't remember where at the time. You can also blow a feat on Arcane Disciple to pick it up, if you like.

[Cornelius Grim]

Darn, can't find Fell Drain or Fell Fright. Anyone have the books they're in?

[Dumbledore lives]

Darn, can't find Fell Drain or Fell Fright. Anyone have the books they're in?

I believe they are both in Libris Mortis. Another option for a necromancer is the death master from dragon compendium, getting animated dead at level 3 is pretty awesome, though the class features are all really meh.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Darn, can't find Fell Drain or Fell Fright. Anyone have the books they're in?

Yea, they're both in Libris Mortis: the book of bad latin, as well as the Corpsecrafter feats. It's a highly suggested resource if you want to be serious about being a necromancer.

[Cornelius Grim]

Ah, thank you all very much for that. I found the feats! And if I roll an 18 for wisdom, I could kill something with 2 hit dice with a magic missile and it'd be a zombie if I use Fell Animate. Fell Fright is sort of meh though. Fell Drain though is awesome. Still, now I'm faced with two or maybe 3 choices... Cleric, or DN or that other option from Dragon Compendium. I'll look at it now. :smalltongue:

[Xanmyral]

A note if you go DN with corpsecrafter. I don't think the first corpse crafter feat stacks with their level eight ability, as they basically do the same thing. You might be able to talk your DM into ruling that they get the feat for free at level eight, because the rest of the feats are nice but if they don't stack it's a wasted feat.

[GoblinArchmage]

I'm assuming, by Necromancer, you mean you want to have a large undead army. If that is the case, then Warlock is not a good choice. From what I hear, you either would want Cleric or DN.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

A note if you go DN with corpsecrafter. I don't think the first corpse crafter feat stacks with their level eight ability, as they basically do the same thing. You might be able to talk your DM into ruling that they get the feat for free at level eight, because the rest of the feats are nice but if they don't stack it's a wasted feat.

Since they are both enhancement bonuses, they would not stack. If your GM lets you consider your class ability to be the feat for purposes of prerequisites, or if your GM lets them stack anyways, it would be best. Otherwise, it's feat tax.

However, Corpsecrafter can be taken at 1st level, then applied to Summon Undead I, so it's a way to get the bonus before level 8, by which time you should have moved on to feats which are more useful afterword. So even if your GM hoses you on it, you still get *some* use out of it if you pick it up early.

[Cornelius Grim]

Thanks, Goblin, but how do I know which one is right for me? They both seem good, I've never played either, and both can be necromancers, but there are a few key issues...

1. Animate Dead is different spell level for each. Is that too hard of an obstacle to overcome? No, probably not.
2. Less blaster spells for cleric. That means metamagic such as Fell Animate and Fell Drain are less likely to work.
3. Roleplaying differences.

Any help with my decision would be great, thank you.

[Psyren]

Cloistered Cleric is your best bet. Forget Death and Magic - get Deathbound and Undeath (both in Spell Compendium) instead. Then trade in your free Knowledge Domain for the Divine Magician ACF in Complete Champion, and pick up all the tasty arcane necro spells clerics don't easily get, like Energy Drain, False Life, Ray of Enfeeblement etc.

[Coidzor]

Another class I realized may work is Warlock. Animate Dead at 6th level and I could homebrew Create Undead as greater invocation. So far, cleric sounds best, but I also enjoy warlock. So now it's between cleric and warlock. I personally like warlock, but a cleric would be a new thing to try... Hmm...

You could do both. Go Cleric 5, then Warlock then Eldritch Disciple. It's easier and requires less levels of Warlock than Eldritch Theurge, the equivalent PrC for arcane caster+warlock.

[GoblinArchmage]

Thanks, Goblin, but how do I know which one is right for me? They both seem good, I've never played either, and both can be necromancers, but there are a few key issues...

1. Animate Dead is different spell level for each. Is that too hard of an obstacle to overcome? No, probably not.
2. Less blaster spells for cleric. That means metamagic such as Fell Animate and Fell Drain are less likely to work.
3. Roleplaying differences.

Any help with my decision would be great, thank you.

I don't have Heroes of Horror, so I can't say anything about DN. I also haven't played a Cleric, and I'm far from an expert on the mechanics of the game in general. Regardless, I'll try to address these issues:

1. I don't know when DNs get Animate Dead, but Clerics get it fairly early. You have Rebuke Undead from the beginning, though, either way, and if your Charisma is high you can get minions that way.

2. That is true, though you still have access to spells that can do the same thing as those feats.

3. Actually, I would have to disagree. Your class doesn't have to determine your character's personality or history.

Edit: Also, as Psyren said, the Undeath and Deathbound domanis would benefit you more than the Death domain.

[Cornelius Grim]

Sounds like a good idea, Psyren. And Goblin, it wouldn't be a big difference, and while I do agree with you that your class doesn't determine your whole background and personality, it can reinforce what you have come up with. For example, a cleric who is zealous and follows a very zealous god has a reason for it, and that reinforces his attitude. However, I tend to agree with your logic. But Coidzor, that multiclassing seems like a lot of work, and I am a very lazy person. :smalltongue: I'll just be a cleric who can finally get some respect by threatening to make people pay for heals... Mwahahahaha... You don't like my policies, you can take it up with my Blood Hulk. Thanks for the help guys! You have made my character design 70% easier. While I am here however, I have one more question. With a few undead monster entry it will say "For Player Characters" and tell requirement that you can meet and cast Animate Dead to make that undead. So far, I know of Bloodhulk and Necrosis Carnex. Any others that you may know about? It would be particularly helpful since our meat shield can't attack much... Thanks again, sorry for barraging you with question I should find out myself...

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Dread Necromancers get Summon Undead I, and thus can summon basic undead minions, even if they are temporary, right off the bat. In fact, they get all the Summon Undead X spells, so every level, there's more powerful undead they can summon.

They also Rebuke/Command undead, which gives them even more undead under their control.

They get Animate Undead as a 4th level spells, which means character level 8. That's about the same time Sorcerers get it, although Clerics get it a bit sooner.

They get Create Undead as a 6th level spell, so at the same time as everyone else.

They get Create Greater Undead as an 8th level spell, just like Clerics, and unlike other arcane casters.

They get Plague of Undead as a 9th level spell... which is always fun for raising not-so-small armies on the fly.

So, in brief, Dread Necro is the best when it comes to armies of undead.

[GoblinArchmage]

I'm not sure about tricks like that with Animate Dead, but the spells Create Undead and Create Greater Undead can get you more powerful minions than simple Skeletons and Zombies. You'll need to use your rebuking ability to command anything that you make, though, so do not dump Charisma.

Edit: It's starting to sound like DN is better than Cleric at this type of thing. Also, if their casting is based off of Charisma, then you would only be dependant on one ability score. With Cleric you would need both a high Wisdom and a high Charisma.

[Cornelius Grim]

Clerics get rebuke undead if evil/neutral, Animate Dead at level 5, Create Undead at level 11, Create Greater Undead at level 13, all the Summon Undead spells, and Plague of Undead at level 17. Only difference in those things is Animate Dead comes in earlier, and cleric is dependent on two stats. But with the early animate dead, I think it makes up for the two ability scores. But the DN's four times HD undead is nice, but deathbound cleric can do times three HD. So they're about the same...

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I'm not sure about tricks like that with Animate Dead, but the spells Create Undead and Create Greater Undead can get you more powerful minions than simple Skeletons and Zombies. You'll need to use your rebuking ability to command anything that you make, though, so do not dump Charisma.

Edit: It's starting to sound like DN is better than Cleric at this type of thing. Also, if their casting is based off of Charisma, then you would only be dependant on one ability score. With Cleric you would need both a high Wisdom and a high Charisma.

Yea, DN is a CHA casting class, which makes them more SAD (can dump Wis and Int). They also get a class ability which lets them add their charisma modifier to the HD/level formula, meaning at least a doubling of controllable undead via spells, if not more.

Plus the Fear Aura which you get for free and either deal with the fact that it isn't very powerful or tweak it out appropriately to be a 30' radius of 'save or lose' which requires no actions on your part.

Plus the free unlimited healing potential from Charnel Touch

Plus Rebuke/Command as a Cleric

So yea... they're pretty much designed for this purpose. And they do it pretty darn well.


But the DN's four times HD undead is nice, but deathbound cleric can do times three HD. So they're about the same...It's actually (4+ Charisma modifier) HD of undead... so significantly more than that.

[Cornelius Grim]

Aww, Schneeky! You just crushed my optimism about clerics. Well, you persuaded me. I'll be a Dread Necromancer. Thanks guys! :smallwink: Anyone know any nontypical uses for Animate Dead?

Edit: Nevermind, I saw you guys didn't know. Sorry for not paying attention. :smallsigh:

[NecroRick]

Dread Necro cannot get Desecrate from Advanced Learning, because it is an Evocation, not a Necromancy spell.


You're absolutely right. My bad.

Do you have any suggestions for the 2nd and 4th level spells to grab for Advanced Learning? My previous favourite having met with a recent unfortunate accident you understand... :D



Fortunately, it comes in a ring form, although I don't remember where at the time. You can also blow a feat on Arcane Disciple to pick it up, if you like.

The ring can be found here:

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/dx20021031x

For a ring, it is incredibly cheap.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Aww, Schneeky! You just crushed my optimism about clerics. Well, you persuaded me. I'll be a Dread Necromancer. Thanks guys! :smallwink: Anyone know any nontypical uses for Animate Dead?

Well, with the corpsecrafter feat Destructive Retribution (also from Libris Mortis), they explode, doing negative energy damage in a radius effect, based on their HD. So they also become suicide bombers.

Also, just for the sheer horror effect, raising fallen comrades which the remaining survivors must now fight off before reaching you... and they blow up when they 'die' again...

[Kefkafreak]

There's nothing else to do with Animate Undead, just skeletons, zombies, dragons (which have special rules), and the ones in the MM4 which you already mentioned.

I don't really like Create Undead, they're too hard to control, unlike the Animate Dead ones which are permanent.

[Cornelius Grim]

Undead also are good for using explosive runes on, and symbol of pain and the like. Basically, they're like lemmings. Except they're not as cute. :smalltongue:

[ShneekeyTheLost]

There's nothing else to do with Animate Undead, just skeletons, zombies, dragons (which have special rules), and the ones in the MM4 which you already mentioned.

I don't really like Create Undead, they're too hard to control, unlike the Animate Dead ones which are permanent.

Create Undead nets you far more useful undead, though. Ghasts, Mummies, Mhorgs... oh my. And you can attempt to command them as they are made. Since that's not too difficult for you... well, there you go.

[Kefkafreak]

Meh, I'm happy with my zombie hydras.

[Cornelius Grim]

Plus if you command them, you can strong-arm them into being your sidekick and possibly get roleplaying exp as you delve into the faded memories of it's past life that I took from it. :smallamused:

[Divide by Zero]

A note if you go DN with corpsecrafter. I don't think the first corpse crafter feat stacks with their level eight ability, as they basically do the same thing. You might be able to talk your DM into ruling that they get the feat for free at level eight, because the rest of the feats are nice but if they don't stack it's a wasted feat.

The enhancement bonuses don't stack, but I'm pretty sure the extra HP do, since that's not a bonus.

[NecroRick]

I found the feats! And if I roll an 18 for wisdom, I could kill something with 2 hit dice with a magic missile

Sorry, stupid question time - how is the wisdom of 18 going to help your magic missile damage?

[Psyren]

But the DN's four times HD undead is nice, but deathbound cleric can do times three HD. So they're about the same...



It's actually (4+ Charisma modifier) HD of undead... so significantly more than that.

You two are talking about two completely different parameters here. There seems to be some confusion from you about how Animate Dead works, so let me try and clear this up. The spell has not one, but two HD limits:

1) How many HD worth you can create
2) How many HD worth you can control

For Animate Dead - with a single casting, you can create 2HD/level of undead. Deathbound ups this to 3HD/level, and Desecrate doubles that, for a total of 6HD/level (with a single casting.)

A Dread Necro's Cha mod (via Undead Mastery) does NOT factor into creation - it only counts towards control. Furthermore, they do not get Desecrate. A Dread Necro is thus stuck at 2HD per casting.

For control, the cleric is stuck at 4HD/level. The Dread Necro has a much higher control limit, at 4+Cha, as Shneekey said. DNs also get a higher control limit from the Control Undead spell, again from Undead Mastery.

Both classes can rebuke - this effectively forms a second control pool that does not diminish the first.

The implications of this are twofold:
A Deathbound cleric can make more undead - either quantity, or quality (one big skeleton, e.g. a dragon) than a Dread Necro can.

A Dread Necro can control more undead than the cleric once they are created. But it will take her longer to do so, because she has to use multiple smaller castings of animate dead to get a large army going, due to the 2HD limit. An item or NPC casting can get her Desecrate for a couple of hours, which ups this to 4 - bringing her closer to the Deathbound cleric creation-wise (but still behind.)

If you want ONE BIG MINION, or are worried about fielding an army at lower levels - Cleric is the better choice. You can get a 30HD minion at level 5, and only need a +3 CL bump to be able to control it too. (5+3=8, 8*4=32.) The Dread Necro has no chance of getting one minion that size, and in fact doesn't even have Undead Mastery yet, never mind finding Desecrate somewhere.

If you want a BIG ARMY - DN is the better choice. But it may take you longer, both to get to the level where you actually become a necromancer, and to build it with a series of smaller castings.

Hope this helps.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Dread Necromancer....

Get the feat Tomb-Tainted Soul from Libris Mortis. That allows you to use your negative energy touch to heal yourself, so you should be able to start every encounter at full HP.

See how your DM would handle the feat Versatile Spellcaster from Races of the Dragon when it comes to a class which automatically knows every spell on its list of a level it can cast. Some will let you get early access to the next level of spells with that feat alone, others will require you to cast spells of the next higher level in practice prior to gaining knowledge of them, so you'll need to combine it with Heighten Spell or a Bloodline feat for example. If you can get early access to the next higher level of spells with just Versatile Spellcaster, then definitely take it at 1st level (Human or flaws, etc.) and you'll be able to cast Animate Dead two levels earlier than normal, plus pick higher level spells for Advanced Learning. If you would need some other effect to cast spells of the next higher level before gaining knowledge of them, and if you can take flaws, then also get either Heighten Spell or Sanctum Spell (CA) along with Versatile Spellcaster. It's definitely worth being able to cast the next higher level of spells two levels sooner for your character's entire career.

The best reason to get Sanctum Spell over Heighten is so you can use it outside your designated sanctum to intentionally make a spell count as a level lower, and get a lesser rod of maximize to use with sanctum enervation. Since you get so many ray spells already, Split Ray (CA) is probably one of the best metamagic feats you can get. If you use a dragonblood race, such as Spellscale (RotD) or Silverbrow Human (DM), you'll be able to get Practical Metamagic (RotD) for Split Ray to reduce its metamagic cost to +1.

Take the feat Arcane Disciple in Complete Divine for the Evil domain to gain access to Desecrate. You'll need Wis 12 to be able to cast it, and it would probably be worth getting Wis 14 to be able to case Unholy Blight as well. Be sure you take the corpses you want to animate to a location with an evil altar to double the Desecrate bonuses.

Corpsecrafter will still give your created minions an extra 2 HP per HD, even though the enhancement bonuses won't stack with your Undead Mastery class feature. Honestly, I'd skip this entire line of feats, there are just way too many better choices to get. Maybe start out as an elf with flaws and wait until the higher levels, then Chaos Shuffle your racial weapon proficiency feats into feats from the Corpsecrafter line. Even if the Chaos Shuffle cheese wouldn't be acceptable, not taking the Corpsecrafter line is no real loss.

For your Advanced Learning spells, see if your DM will let you use the alternate Eclectic Learning detailed in the Warmage section of PH2. With Versatile Spellcaster access your Advanced Learning spell levels will be 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th, and 9th. I'd probably pick Decomposition (SC, 2nd), Wail of Doom (SC, 5th), Awaken Undead (SC, 6th), Avasculate (SC, 7th) or Animate Dread Warrior (UE, 6th), and I'm not even sure what to pick for the last one at 20th level. Note that the wording of Decomposition implies that if a creature gets hit multiple times while under its effect, they would take an extra three damage per round for each of those attacks it took. If a creature is hit five times, even if each hit only deals one point of damage, it would take an extra fifteen damage per round until it gets healed or the spell ends. Awaken Undead is amazing when used on Cave Troll (MM3) Skeletons, Arrow Demon (MM3) Skeletons, Hydra Zombies, and Razor Boar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/razorBoar.htm) (MM2) Skeletons.

Definitely get a Ghostly Visage (FF) for your familiar. It should always be possessing your character, which grants you immunity to all mind-affecting effects. It can manifest over your character's face to use its paralyzing gaze attack every round. It can spend a standard action every round to paralyze one creature unless it makes the save again. Your other party members may risk being paralyzed by it, but since it's a fear (mind-affecting) effect you and your undead minions are immune. It is by far the best familiar any character can get, and is a huge contributor to making a Dread Necromancer a viable solo character.

[Cornelius Grim]

Sorry, stupid question time - how is the wisdom of 18 going to help your magic missile damage?

Well, I meant to say at level 1 I'd be able to do that, and I also meant intelligence, but with one magic missile, I could use my bonus 3rd level spell slot and my bonus 4th level spell slot to make two Fell Drain Magic Missile, and instantly take away its only two Hit Dice. Sorry, I regularly post things that I mean to talk to myself about, especially my own convoluted schemes that pop into mind. :smallredface: And again, sorry I mixed up wisdom and intelligence for each other, it was really late for me, lol.


You two are talking about two completely different parameters here. There seems to be some confusion from you about how Animate Dead works, so let me try and clear this up. The spell has not one, but two HD limits:

1) How many HD worth you can create
2) How many HD worth you can control

For Animate Dead - with a single casting, you can create 2HD/level of undead. Deathbound ups this to 3HD/level, and Desecrate doubles that, for a total of 6HD/level (with a single casting.)

A Dread Necro's Cha mod (via Undead Mastery) does NOT factor into creation - it only counts towards control. Furthermore, they do not get Desecrate. A Dread Necro is thus stuck at 2HD per casting.

For control, the cleric is stuck at 4HD/level. The Dread Necro has a much higher control limit, at 4+Cha, as Shneekey said. DNs also get a higher control limit from the Control Undead spell, again from Undead Mastery.

Both classes can rebuke - this effectively forms a second control pool that does not diminish the first.

The implications of this are twofold:
A Deathbound cleric can make more undead - either quantity, or quality (one big skeleton, e.g. a dragon) than a Dread Necro can.

A Dread Necro can control more undead than the cleric once they are created. But it will take her longer to do so, because she has to use multiple smaller castings of animate dead to get a large army going, due to the 2HD limit. An item or NPC casting can get her Desecrate for a couple of hours, which ups this to 4 - bringing her closer to the Deathbound cleric creation-wise (but still behind.)

If you want ONE BIG MINION, or are worried about fielding an army at lower levels - Cleric is the better choice. You can get a 30HD minion at level 5, and only need a +3 CL bump to be able to control it too. (5+3=8, 8*4=32.) The Dread Necro has no chance of getting one minion that size, and in fact doesn't even have Undead Mastery yet, never mind finding Desecrate somewhere.

If you want a BIG ARMY - DN is the better choice. But it may take you longer, both to get to the level where you actually become a necromancer, and to build it with a series of smaller castings.

Hope this helps.

Ohhh...that clears up a lot. Yes, thank you, sorry I was confused. Well, I'm becoming a Mystic Theurge since the DM banned Dread Necromancer. The last Dread Necromancer made a Bloodhulk, and a Necro Carnax, and they got a bit overpowered with magic items. So if I were to be a Level 8 Mystic Theurge with Deathbound domain and Desecrate, I could do this... should the need arise. However, I shall refrain from doing this for fear my DM will kill me. Although, it would be pretty awesome if I did this, lol. Thanks for that, Psyren. It gave me much to threaten players who get too rowdy with, should it become needed. :smallamused:

So, since I have decided to be a Mystic Theurge, I will have a huge variety or spells, and numerous spell slots to use my Fell Drain metamagic spells with. However, I still will have one or two undead buddies so my character can make some skeleton related puns. :smallbiggrin: I thank the people who showed me Fell Drain and Fell Animate.

Not to mention the idea of being able to do stuff both a wizard and cleric could do is awesome, so that's another thing that being a Mystic Theurge would look cool. My friend who has been playing D&D for 10 years or so says Mystic Theurge's are fun, and I trust his judgement.

Thank you all for all the help you have given me, and even though I have to limit my undead, the negative levels will be awesome. especially for pesky recurring villains one level higher than the group. I will find a way to make the negative level permanent, or just get the Death Devotion feat. This thread will be an excellent reference/guide as my character progresses. :smallsmile: I think I have enough to make a pretty bad (in a good way) necromancer! Thanks!

[Yahzi]

For control, the cleric is stuck at 4HD/level.

Except:


If you exceed this number, all the newly created creatures fall under your control, and any excess undead from previous castings become uncontrolled.

So a Cleric who casts a 6HD Animate Dead spell gets to control all of those "newly created" undead; he just loses any previous ones.

This means a Cleric can create and control a 6HD army, but he can't create reinforcements without recreating the entire army (an expensive proposition). Whereas the Dread Necro can rebuild his army in pieces.

[GoblinArchmage]

It's your character and you can play it however you want, but, depending on what you want to do with your character, make sure that Theurge will allow you to do that. If you want access to two different spell lists, alright, but if you want an undead army, you'd be better off as just a Cleric.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

There's a saying on these boards about Mystic Theurges...

that saying is a picture of Admiral Akbar shouting "IT'S A TRAP!!!"

And there's a reason why. Basically, Mystic Theurge gets you the worst of both worlds. Be a cleric, or be a wizard, but don't try for both, because you end up with neither.

[Cornelius Grim]

A lot of people on these forums dislike Mystic Theurge's, and I have a thread asking about the problems of them. I don't see any problems besides being 3 caster levels lower in each class, slow spell progression, and different primary ability scores for wizard and cleric. I started making the character, and got 2 18's for Wis and Int, and a 16 for Cha, a 14 for Str or Dex, and two others I forgot. So I fail to see too much of a problem, and not to mention I am not going for/am not allowed to be full-blown giant undead necromancer. Just some negative energy spells, which with the feats you guys gave me, can do negative energy stuff. I fail to see an issue here. If someone would like to give actual in detail issues with the stuff I have listed here, I may reconsider being a Mystic Theurge, but I don't see a problem. :smallannoyed:

[ShneekeyTheLost]

A lot of people on these forums dislike Mystic Theurge's, and I have a thread asking about the problems of them. I don't see any problems besides being 3 caster levels lower in each class, slow spell progression, and different primary ability scores for wizard and cleric. I started making the character, and got 2 18's for Wis and Int, and a 16 for Cha, a 14 for Str or Dex, and two others I forgot. So I fail to see too much of a problem, and not to mention I am not going for/am not allowed to be full-blown giant undead necromancer. Just some negative energy spells, which with the feats you guys gave me, can do negative energy stuff. I fail to see an issue here. If someone would like to give actual in detail issues with the stuff I have listed here, I may reconsider being a Mystic Theurge, but I don't see a problem. :smallannoyed:

Bolded is the problem.

At level 11, you are a Wiz3/Cleric3/MT5. When you have people throwing around Contingency, Disintegrate, and have had Teleport for a couple of levels now, YOU are *JUST NOW* getting Enervate, DimDoor, and Solid Fog.

At level 17, you are Wiz3/Cleric3/MT 10/??1. When you've got people that are slinging around 9th level spells, including Time Stop and Gate and Miracle... you're putzing around with having just gotten Contingency a couple levels ago (assuming you didn't ban Evoc, in which case you STILL can't cast it until you get some more Wizard levels for Greater Shadow Evocation at 8th level spells).

FURTHERMORE...

Your rebuking is NOT advanced for mystic theurge. Thus you're crippled to controlling 1hd minions with Rebuke/Command, and Rebuke as a 3rd level cleric. In a level 17 game. Good luck with that.

Being three levels of spellcasting behind is like taking a pistol into an active warzone... sure, you've got a weapon that can kill people... but compared to everyone else around you in full combat gear with automatic weapons... well... good luck with that.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The standard X 3/ Y 3/ MT build may get a lot more spells/day, but you're still limited to one spell/round and the spells you throw around are considerably weaker than what you're expected to have at a given level. You may get a bigger list of spells to pick from, but just sticking to one class for spellcasting gives you plenty of options to do everything you want to without severely gimping your character. It's like playing a character who's three levels lower than the rest of the party, with no chance of ever catching back up, which is seriously not fun.

[Cornelius Grim]

I could just get the Sanctun Spell feat and the Precocious Apprentice to meet the 2nd level spell requirement and then be level 3 to meet the skill requirements? I'd meet the Mystic Theurge's Requirements in half the time as normal. I'd only be 1 level lower in 1 class and 2 in another. It's borderline rule breaking, but it counts.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I could just get the Sanctun Spell feat and the Precocious Apprentice to meet the 2nd level spell requirement and then be level 3 to meet the skill requirements? I'd meet the Mystic Theurge's Requirements in half the time as normal. I'd only be 1 level lower in 1 class and 2 in another. It's borderline rule breaking, but it counts.

That is the early entry method of choice, other than Wiz5/UrPriest2/MT10/AM3 which nets you 9's on both sides...

[Cornelius Grim]

Aren't Ur-Priests evil? I can't be evil... :/

[Psyren]

So a Cleric who casts a 6HD Animate Dead spell gets to control all of those "newly created" undead; he just loses any previous ones.


Interesting reading. It's obviously against RAI but it could still fly in a TO discussion perhaps.


I could just get the Sanctun Spell feat and the Precocious Apprentice to meet the 2nd level spell requirement and then be level 3 to meet the skill requirements? I'd meet the Mystic Theurge's Requirements in half the time as normal. I'd only be 1 level lower in 1 class and 2 in another. It's borderline rule breaking, but it counts.

Yes it works, but you're still not advancing Rebuke at all by using MT even if you do shore up the CL-loss. Given what you're trying to do, it's not worth it.

Just use Divine Magician instead; there aren't that many arcane necromancy spells you really need that you can't get from domains anyway.


Aren't Ur-Priests evil? I can't be evil... :/

Unless you're going to be a Hellbred, you'll end up Evil with this character eventually from all the reanimation you're going to be doing =\

[Coidzor]

Interesting reading. It's obviously against RAI but it could still fly in a TO discussion perhaps.

TO? :smallconfused: Hardly, more like PO. And it's only against RAI if you accept the premise that the relevant individuals were both intending to make a domain that did not have a granted power and were huffing paint that day or something.


Unless you're going to be a Hellbred, you'll end up Evil with this character eventually from all the reanimation you're going to be doing =\

DN's can by RAW maintain a Neutral alignment and their main shtick is armies of the undead.

And how often one is going to be animating the dead depends upon too many factors to guess as to how often of a thing it's going to be.

[Psyren]

TO? :smallconfused: Hardly, more like PO. And it's only against RAI if you accept the premise that the relevant individuals were both intending to make a domain that did not have a granted power and were huffing paint that day or something

So I could reanimate a single skeleton, then reanimate a 60HD dragon and automatically control it simply by letting that one skeleton become uncontrolled... and you think that's RAI? :smallconfused:



DN's can by RAW maintain a Neutral alignment and their main shtick is armies of the undead.

They CAN, yes, maintain a Neutral alignment by putting their abilities to Good use to cancel out their [Evil] spells, just like everyone else. The class itself grants no special protection from aligned magic.

From Heroes of Horror:

"No dread necromancer can have a good alignment. Performing evil acts is a basic feature of the class, but some dread necromancers manage to balance evil acts with good intentions, remaining solidly neutral (most PC Dread Necromancers fall into this category.)"

So for the OP to stay Neutral, it would depend on why he is raising legions of undead and what he orders them to do. Merely being a DN is not enough to keep him Neutral by itself.

[Coidzor]

So I could reanimate a single skeleton, then reanimate a 60HD dragon and automatically control it simply by letting that one skeleton become uncontrolled... and you think that's RAI? :smallconfused:

Yes, because the alternative makes less sense that they would intentionally make something useless. Just because they didn't fully consider what was possible does not mean that they did not intend for individuals to make more in one single casting than they otherwise could control.


Merely being a DN is not enough to keep him Neutral by itself.

I was citing it as an example, Psyren. An example. So you know as well as I do that his character isn't going to be automatically evil, so why did you say that his character was going to be automatically evil?

[Psyren]

I was citing it as an example, Psyren. An example. So you know as well as I do that his character isn't going to be automatically evil, so why did you say that his character was going to be automatically evil?

The OP said "I can't be evil." If he's going to be a necromancer, he will end up evil unless (a) he actively takes steps to counteract the side-effects of his own tactics or (b) his DM handwaves the RAW effects of [Evil] magic. That's all I was informing him of.

I get the feeling you're taking offense where none was intended; if I'm coming across confrontationally then I apologize as I have no desire to do so. :smallsmile:

[Coidzor]

The OP said "I can't be evil." If he's going to be a necromancer, he will end up evil unless (a) he actively takes steps to counteract the side-effects of his own tactics or (b) his DM handwaves the RAW effects of [Evil] magic. That's all I was informing him of.

I get the feeling you're taking offense where none was intended; if I'm coming across confrontationally then I apologize as I have no desire to do so. :smallsmile:

Lousy internet making it hard to figure out tone. x.x Sorry, I get what you were saying now.

[Cornelius Grim]

Okay, well, I see what Psyren is saying, that I am probably going to end up evil, unless I only animate because I am doing it for good intentions, and as long as I don't animate people who don't deserve to be animated. There are ways I can do this without being evil though. My goal was to be neutral.

Another thing, however, is that I can't animate a large amount of undead at a time, unless the need arises. My DM got frustrated with the last necromancer, who just happened to be a dread necromancer, so now I'm just a negative energy guy. I focus on dealing negative levels, and only have 1 or two skeletal buddies, maybe a wight here and there. THanks for the good advice though guys, about being evil and everything.

Our DM says that their are evil necromancers out there, but there are also neutral necromancers, so I can most likely maintain a neutral persona in the DM's eyes, which is the only person's perspective of me who matters in D&D.

So, besides Fell Animate, Energy Drain, and Enervation, anyone have any tips for an aspiring Negative Level Specialist? I saw another thread focusing on Negative levels, but I'm curious of Psyrens' and Coidzors' opinions mainly, because you guys commented the most. :smallwink: Thanks again for that.

[Coidzor]

Well, to get a lot of negative levels out there, you're going to need metamagic mitigation techniques, mostly. Split, Twin Ray'd, Maximized, Empowered Enervation is just tasty, but requires a bit of doing.

[Cornelius Grim]

Unfortunately, my D&D group, for whatever reason, only goes to about level 13 before restarting. I don't know why, but we do. So I wouldn't have time for that, where as I could just Fell Drain an AoE spell and everything gains a negative level. This would be especially helpful at level 1. But, anything that won't require me to be an extremely high level, which for me is about 15+. Although, Coidzor, I'm certain that would be an awesome idea if I were higher level. Thank you for the suggestion. :smallsmile:

[Divide by Zero]

Another thing, however, is that I can't animate a large amount of undead at a time, unless the need arises. My DM got frustrated with the last necromancer, who just happened to be a dread necromancer, so now I'm just a negative energy guy. I focus on dealing negative levels, and only have 1 or two skeletal buddies, maybe a wight here and there.

Then just focus on a couple of really big undead. DNs do that pretty well too.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

For negative level output, I will have to throw a sheet-anchor of caution.

It's a 'rocket tag' solution. If you can apply them, you can trivialize encounters rapidly. If you can't, then you're significantly nerfed in your ability to do anything.

Having said that, there's some options for you.

Fell Drain is a +2 SLA (Spell Level Adjustment). That means, barring metamagic reduction tactics, you're not going to be using it until at least level 5/6. And that's only if you have a good 1st level AE spell. Magic Missile is a good one, since that guarantees a hit on 3 targets at level 5.

One option is the Flashfrost approach, so that any cloud-type spell does 1 damage so it also does 1 negative level (because Fell Drain requires the spell do damage to inflict the negative level), but that further pushes back when you can do it without some rather extreme metamagic adjustment tactics.

Another option is, at least in the lower levels, try something else that might work better for you. For example, Ray of Enfeeblement is a fun little first level debuff. Strength penalties reduce damage output and accuracy of opponent melee attacks. So it's a really nice single-target debuff, that fits the whole necromancer thing.

There's a feat, school specialization or something like that. Reduces metamagic cost of a school, minimum 1 still. It's pretty handy if you're wanting to focus on that school. However, you've got a problem:

Metamagic reducers have zero value if you have no metamagic feats that you can use, even if you do reduce their cost.

So a first level character... let's call him a Human Necromancer (wizard necro focus, banning evocation and something else). He picks up Fell Drain and metamagic School Specialization. Fine. He still can't apply Fell Drain to anything for two more levels. That means your feats are sitting there blocking anything else you want to do.

Now, if you are wanting to set up for a later-game combo, and accept the short-term weakness of effectively starting the game with NO feats, despite being a race that gets a bonus feat, in exchange for crippling later game combos... that's awesome. Just be aware that this is a choice that you ARE making. And hey, when you hit 5rd level, and you suddenly toss out a Flashfrost Fell Drain Web spell (so not only are they taking a negative level, but if they get stuck, they CONTINUE to get negative levels every turn... very nasty combo), because of the Metamagic School Focus, then your patience will be vindicated. But in the meantime, don't complain about how 'weak' your character is, having already accepted that his power level will be lower until that point.

[NecroRick]

I've been looking, but I cannot find the RAW to support Psyren's assertion that casting spells with an [EVIL] descriptor will change your alignment. There's the fluff he quoted, but that talks about actions in general, not spells specifically.

The closest I've found is that Druids and Clerics cannot cast spells that have a descriptor opposed to their deities alignment.

Recently I saw someone else asserting that they weren't even on the cleric's class list unless they picked them up in a domain. I think they may have been confused. My reading of RAW is that a Good cleric with the Death domain still couldn't cast Animate Dead.

[Psyren]

I've been looking, but I cannot find the RAW to support Psyren's assertion that casting spells with an [EVIL] descriptor will change your alignment.

BoVD pg. 8, FC2 pg. 30

[Maho-Tsukai]

If you want to decide between Dread Necro, Cleric or MT, here are my views on each, perhaps they will help you...

Dread Necromancer:

Pros- BEST Necromancer in the game. You will have the largest undead army out of anybody, period. Not even an epic level cleric with undead mastery(epic feat) and zone of animation will beat you(if your in epic, that is. XD). You are the ONLY necromancer class who can feasibly build a conquest worthy army without ever having to pull spawning tricks and animate dread warrior spellstitching shenanigans.(and you can still pull either of those just as well, if not better then the rest of them.) You can get any necromancy spell you want on your list via advance learning and you have Rebuke. You are also awesome at using fear to your advantage and can be a passable party face if you like that roll.

Cons- Has to wait a really long time for animate dead(You get it when the sorc dose, ouch.) and has a spell list that is in many ways botched. Has rather harsh, not very "caster-y" low level play in which your more or less a melee character who's best trick infinite out of battle healing.(Your first feat WILL be tomb tainted soul.) Your also a tier 3, which may be more of a pro then a con, but it means you are nowhere near as versatile as other necromantic classes. You may be REALLY good at necromancy, but that's basically all your good at.

Cleric:

Pros- Your ALMOST as good at army building as the Dread Necro, equal in every way to the wizard at "caster" necromancy and vastly superior to the wizard at army building. You have the deathbound domain to increase the HD you can create and control(though the latter in an indirect manner) from an individual casting of animate dead, as well as the awesome plus of being the class that gets animate dead the fastest(baring the 3rd party Death Master, that is.) You have access to spells like desecrate and general of undeath to further increase your legion size. You have rebuke, and you have MANY ways to poach whatever arcane necromancy spells you may want for yourself(Mainly Divine Magician, which is how you equal a wizard at "caster" necromancy...by poaching his best spells with that ACF).

Cons- You will never build a world-conquest size legion without making use of spawning tricks or animate dread warrior shenanigans, and your not an arcane caster, which means you won't get animate dread warrior shenanigans easily since you can't do your own spellstitching(though you can still get spell-stitching tricks via undead leadership(or just plain leadership, too.)) Also, you may have unappealing RP depending on your character concept and the GM, as you MAY be required to be a ***** to some god, and that god may not want you to go global conquering...and may also restrict you to crappy domains. If you don't mind your necromancer being a servant, then this is no issue. If you do, it still may not be an issue as in many cases the DM will just let you serve an ideal instead of a deity.(Which, IMO, is the better way to go simply so you can get your choice of whatever domains you want.)

Mystic Theurge:

Pros- You have Cleric levels, meaning you have many of the same necromantic things that make the cleric good. You have wizard levels...um...I don't really need to explain what makes that good. You can cast pretty much any necromancy spell you want and many you don't. You will have TONS of spells per-day and be pretty **** versatile seeing that you have access to two lists.

Cons- Your always 3 CLs behind anybody of equal level without early entry tricks. You will only ever get 9ths on one side no matter what you do, unless you take Ur-Priest as your divine class. Your rebuking will be pathetically weak and you will have to wait very long to get animate dead(though no longer then the Dread Necro). Overall, you will not be able to do anything that a single classed cleric could not already do when it comes to necromancy.

Just my two cents on the pros and cons of each idea, I would personally go Dread Necro, but seeing as you have said DN was banned cleric would be the best option. Still ask your DM if you can go dread necro, though. The class is just that awesome when it comes to necromancy.

[Divide by Zero]

Cleric:

...equal in every way to the wizard at "caster" necromancy...

Not quite. Wizards have an easier time with metamagic abuse (unless you're burning all your extra feats on DMM), and better blasty spells for Uttercold builds.

[Cornelius Grim]

Shneekey, what about bonus spell slots? I can just use those, and at level 1, one negative level = 1 free wight that provides us with another encounter. I.e. A nice chunk of pretty xp. My point is , Fell Drain at first level with bonus spell slots isn't a waste. And NecroRick, I plan to be True Neutral, so descriptors aren't too much of a problem.

[danzibr]

Why Mystic Theurge instead of True Necromancer? I'm given to understand they both blow chunks
Yeah. Have you considered the UA variant Necromancer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm)? Probably not as good as a Cleric, but I like it.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Shneekey, what about bonus spell slots? I can just use those, and at level 1, one negative level = 1 free wight that provides us with another encounter. I.e. A nice chunk of pretty xp. My point is , Fell Drain at first level with bonus spell slots isn't a waste. And NecroRick, I plan to be True Neutral, so descriptors aren't too much of a problem.

You still have to deal with the Level Adjustment, and you don't get bonus spell slots until you can cast that level of spell, so unless you have some shenanigans involved, such as Precocious Apprentice or the like, you won't be able to use it.

[Cornelius Grim]

Our DM lets us use bonus spell slots for Meta-Magic feats. I actually never knew that... I'm so clueless, but our DM lets us, so that rule doesn't apply to us.

Also, Maho-Tsukai, thos eare all very good viewpoints. I am glad to see someone who doesn't bag too badly on the Mystic Theurge. I was set on Mystic Theurge before I decided he'd be a necro, but I have decided that now. So thank you for not making them look bad, unlike everyone else. DN is banned though :smallfrown: So, I'm being a Mystic Theurge. Thanks again for not being a jerk to the prestige class-- It has feelings too...sort of...meh.

So seeing as the SLA isn't going to be a problem for Fell Drain for me, it's all good, I have it all figured out. :smallamused:

[NecroRick]

And NecroRick, I plan to be True Neutral, so descriptors aren't too much of a problem.

Well, so far as I can tell, Arcane Casters pretty much ignore alignment descriptors, and for divine casters casting [evil] spells is only a problem if you're getting your spells from a [good] divine source ($deity or whatever)

NB: I applaud your decision to play neutral-neutral. Chaotic neutral is just so much of a cliche I feel that it is really played out. Have fun!

My point is that just because you cast a bunch of Animate Deads, it doesn't automatically mean your alignment shifts.

[Cornelius Grim]

Yeah, I use to play a ton of Chaotic Neutral character, but it got too cliche. True Neutral's where it's at! It's your liscence to do whatever the heck you want, then walk away and light a cigar! :smallcool: No, I'm joking, but it fits a lot of character, and I can't in good conscience play a good character when I know I can't be good, lol. It's not in my nature, lol, not to mention so many character should belong in the True Neutral category.
I thank you for your praise.

[Psyren]

Well, so far as I can tell, Arcane Casters pretty much ignore alignment descriptors, and for divine casters casting [evil] spells is only a problem if you're getting your spells from a [good] divine source ($deity or whatever)

I gave you the page references already NR. BoVD pg. 8, FC2 pg. 30.

You can definitely be a good-aligned necromancer - simply be a Hellbred and rely on their Evil Exception ability.

[NecroRick]

I gave you the page references already NR. BoVD pg. 8, FC2 pg. 30.

You can definitely be a good-aligned necromancer - simply be a Hellbred and rely on their Evil Exception ability.

Strictly speaking, neither of those backs up the assertion you made with regard to inevitable alignment drift. The FCII section actually contradicts what you said, because it says that good characters can earn corruption points. Even the BoVD simply says that casting an [evil] spell is an evil act.

[Kefkafreak]

An Eldritch Disciple is probably better than a Cleric or a Wizard, since you can control 8 HD of undead / caster level, plus the ones from Rebuke.

A Dread Necromancer with high Charisma is still better than that though.

[NecroRick]

An Eldritch Disciple is probably better than a Cleric or a Wizard, since you can control 8 HD of undead / caster level, plus the ones from Rebuke.


I've just had a look at Eldritch Disciple and I'm not quite sure where you're getting 8 x Class level from. Can you expand upon that a little?

[Psyren]

The FCII section actually contradicts what you said, because it says that good characters can earn corruption points. Even the BoVD simply says that casting an [evil] spell is an evil act.

Casting a handful of [Evil] spells won't change your alignment overnight. Shifting your alignment is a gradual process, and requires making a habit of using such spells.

The issue is that a necromancer would be expected to make a habit of this.

[Kefkafreak]

I've just had a look at Eldritch Disciple and I'm not quite sure where you're getting 8 x Class level from. Can you expand upon that a little?

You have both the Warlock invocation and the divine spell, which have different HD limits.

[NecroRick]

You have both the Warlock invocation and the divine spell, which have different HD limits.

Ok, so a level 10 Eldritch Disciple (DFA 1, Cleric 4, ED 5) is going to have effective caster/class levels of 6 for invocations and 8 for divine casting, so would have a HD limit of 4x6 = 24 + 4x8 = 32. Grand total of 54? Is that how you are counting it?

[NecroRick]

The issue is that a necromancer would be expected to make a habit of this (raising the dead).

Would you though? Other than replacing attrition due to combat, and occasionally restocking due to some new monster found/level gained you wouldn't necessarily have to cast it a lot.

I assume here that the Necro isn't making a target of himself by trying to make the fighters and barbarians obsolete. You could specifically make a point of raising zombies for instance, so that they do help in combat, but it takes a while for them to shuffle up to the front line (by which time the meat-tanks are probably happy to see them arrive and take some of the heat). Or you could use skeletal archers and hang back etc.

I'd see more of a problem with a Warlock, I could see in most combats the other players uniting to take down one monster fast, and then when they do the Warlock raising it up, and thus dominating whatever the DM throws at them, because raising is his standard modus operandi during combat...

...funnily enough, a Chaotic Good Warlock can still use The Dead Walk or whatever it's called.

[Kefkafreak]

Ok, so a level 10 Eldritch Disciple (DFA 1, Cleric 4, ED 5) is going to have effective caster/class levels of 6 for invocations and 8 for divine casting, so would have a HD limit of 4x6 = 24 + 4x8 = 32. Grand total of 54? Is that how you are counting it?

Yeah, I shouldn't have said 8 HD / level since most ED won't have equal caster levels in both sides.

[Psyren]

...funnily enough, a Chaotic Good Warlock can still use The Dead Walk or whatever it's called.

Indeed, and this is an example of RAW being silly/inconsistent. Again, it's up to the DM to decide if these spells have an impact or not in his setting. The warlock example is a great one to bring up.

But RAW should be assumed and then dispensed with (if necessary), not the reverse.

[Cornelius Grim]

I don't see too big of an issue using evil spells as long as you use them to a good purpose, like going into a known evil Kobold village and then using Dance of Ruin (BoVD) to destroy a gathered group of evil bandit kobolds.

Not that Kobolds are bad. They're just misunderstood. :smallwink:

[NecroRick]

Not that Kobolds are bad. They're just misunderstood. :smallwink:

That was true before they got their own book of myriad abuses. Now? Now they are bad.


Also -> there's a cleric feat that lets you slap the [good] descriptor on spells :D

[Cornelius Grim]

That was true before they got their own book of myriad abuses. Now? Now they are bad.


Also -> there's a cleric feat that lets you slap the [good] descriptor on spells :D

Aww... I like kobolds. :smallfrown: In fact, my Sorcerer's best friend is a kobold, you meanie. :smallyuk: I'm joking about you being a meanie of course, lol.

In response to the good-aligned spell, to me, alignments don't matter. If I use an evil spell, that's my choice. It's not like I'm using it to eradicate all paladins in the world or anything. Yet... Heheheheheh... :smallamused: Nah, I probably won't do that.

[Coidzor]

Also -> there's a cleric feat that lets you slap the [good] descriptor on spells :D

What feat is that again?

[NecroRick]

What feat is that again?

Consecrate Spell, from either Complete Divine or Book of Evil Darkness

http://dnd.savannahsoft.eu/feat-417-consecrate-spell.html

[NecroRick]

Aww... I like kobolds. :smallfrown: In fact, my Sorcerer's best friend is a kobold, you meanie. :smallyuk: I'm joking about you being a meanie of course, lol.


Ever since the publication of Races of the munchkin magnet goblin is the new kobold.



In response to the good-aligned spell, to me, alignments don't matter. If I use an evil spell, that's my choice. It's not like I'm using it to eradicate all paladins in the world or anything. Yet... Heheheheheh... :smallamused: Nah, I probably won't do that.

Killing them would be the merciful thing to do. It is crueler to leave them as they are. :smalltongue:

[Graytemplar]

if ur even remotely considering a mystic theurge at least give geomancer a look. u gain access to spells, arcane and divine, earlier than most, and ur supplemented by great martial skills. plus u can cast arcane spells as divine and vice versa basically nothing u cast will require somatic components, u'll never be threatened by arcane spell failure again! Plus drift increases ur attribute scores as well as boosts like increased land speed/ natural armor

[Cornelius Grim]

if ur even remotely considering a mystic theurge at least give geomancer a look. u gain access to spells, arcane and divine, earlier than most, and ur supplemented by great martial skills. plus u can cast arcane spells as divine and vice versa basically nothing u cast will require somatic components, u'll never be threatened by arcane spell failure again! Plus drift increases ur attribute scores as well as boosts like increased land speed/ natural armor

Granted, this prestige class is awesome, it's not quite as versatile as I'd like. Only advances in 1 class, but some of those drifts are awesome! I may consider using this for another character. Thank you very much for that. :smallsmile:

[Cornelius Grim]

Ever since the publication of Races of the munchkin magnet goblin is the new kobold.



Killing them would be the merciful thing to do. It is crueler to leave them as they are. :smalltongue:

Sorry for double posting, just saw this, and yes. Killing them is more or less good, lol. Also yes, goblins are pretty cool. In general this post is just a win. :smallwink:

[Coidzor]

Sorry for double posting, just saw this, and yes. Killing them is more or less good, lol. Also yes, goblins are pretty cool. In general this post is just a win. :smallwink:

There's a nice homebrew thread dedicated to them since they got so little love in 3.X, if you're interested.

And you can either multiquote or edit in other quotes, depending upon the situation, to avoid doubleposting.

[Cornelius Grim]

And you can either multiquote or edit in other quotes, depending upon the situation, to avoid doubleposting.

I couldn't figure out how to edit a post that doesn't multiquote so it does multiquote. sorry. :smallsigh:

[hamishspence]

Casting a handful of [Evil] spells won't change your alignment overnight. Shifting your alignment is a gradual process, and requires making a habit of using such spells.

The issue is that a necromancer would be expected to make a habit of this.

Heroes of Horror seems to suggest that a Neutral character can "make a habit of doing evil deeds" (with good intentions) and still maintain a Neutral alignment.

Champions of Ruin suggests that making a habit of evil deeds tends to lead to Evil alignment.

(BoVD specifically calls out evil spells for this, as does FC2 (1 point corrupt act, which is pretty minor) and Eberron Campaign Setting.)

I'd go with combining the principles. Yes, you can do evil acts regularly and still be Neutral- but they have to be minor ones, and your overall ends need to be Good.

So- the Neutral Dread Necromancer ends up needing to live the life of a typically Good hero, just to stay Neutral- and have their heroic deeds outweigh their minor Evil ones.

[Divide by Zero]

I couldn't figure out how to edit a post that doesn't multiquote so it does multiquote. sorry. :smallsigh:

Quote the second post in a new tab, edit your original, copy, paste.

[Cornelius Grim]

Thanks you, Divide By Zero, that will save me a lot of time and guilt. :smallsmile:

So does anyone else have any ideas? Anyone at all? Any necromancer ideas that don't involve a too terribly long line of feats or anything is nice. Also, I need help deciding a backstory. I was thinking of taking Improved Familiar, and my DM says I can get a wight. It's my father's corpse to be carried around until level 6, when I can get the feat to get my father's corpse reanimated to a wight. Anyone willing to give me ideas for using this as a roleplaying application would be doing me a huge favor in starting my ideas.

[Coidzor]

Well, the Azun-Gund(Azund-Gund?) or Nightcaller's Whistle (I believe it appears in both Sunless Citadel and Libris Mortis) is always fun to supplement your necromantic abilities. And relatively cheap too for what it offers (2 zomblebees per party member/cohort)

As is a bardic cohort with the Requiem feat in order to boost your minions' attack and damage... Which I'd suggest for more of an Undead Leadership than improved familiar and go with an awakened skeleton/bone creature/necropolitan rather than a wight.

Why a wight anyway? And what were you thinking was the angle for carting around his father's corpse? For that matter, what've you decided at all about this father figure?

[Cornelius Grim]

Well, the Azun-Gund(Azund-Gund?) or Nightcaller's Whistle (I believe it appears in both Sunless Citadel and Libris Mortis) is always fun to supplement your necromantic abilities. And relatively cheap too for what it offers (2 zomblebees per party member/cohort)

As is a bardic cohort with the Requiem feat in order to boost your minions' attack and damage... Which I'd suggest for more of an Undead Leadership than improved familiar and go with an awakened skeleton/bone creature/necropolitan rather than a wight.

Why a wight anyway? And what were you thinking was the angle for carting around his father's corpse? For that matter, what've you decided at all about this father figure?

I'm choosing him to be a wight because I am focusing on piling negative levels on enemies. I need a totally awesome wight sidekick to follow me around, and help drain the levels from my opponents. It's also going to help so that if anybody in the group wants to get too rowdy (particularly one person in the group with a bad Fortitude Save), they can say good bye to their new levels.

And he's lugging around his father's corpse because he wants to ressurect it, but has an unhealthy interest in dead things. So he figured turning it into an undead was the right way to go. He didn't realize wights didn't have any memories of their past lives, which is severely dissapointing. Basically, he's lugging it around out of emotional distress and desperateness. Anyway, his father died when he was young, so he wanted to meet him and/or have a father figure. This adventurer is still moderately young (25) anyway, so "wight" (lol :smalltongue:) as well have a father figure. I sort of asked the question so that I could get help for further developing the backstory, not get critisized for my choice of undead. :smallfrown: