Darts: Legacy weapons or actually useful for something?

[Cieyrin]

I haven't seen anybody actually use darts since 2E, when they had a nice rate of fire. Now, wizards don't even get proficiency and they aren't mechanically impressive by any means. Who actually uses darts when you have proficiency in slings, crossbows and javelins or martial ranged weapons? Is there something I'm missing here?

[Zaq]

There are a lot of weapons that pretty much have no mechanical reason to exist. If I had the time and inclination (and I have neither, but you could have guessed that), I could see it being fun to make up a whole bunch of weapon-specific enhancements, so ONLY darts can use this enhancement, ONLY katars can use this enhancement, ONLY handaxes can use this enhancement, and so on. It'd give them a reason to exist.

Right now? Yeah, there's just nothing special about them.

[Thurbane]

My favorite thing about darts is that is you manage to throw three in a round, and all are critical hits, you get to yell "One hundred and eighty!". :smallbiggrin:

Also, I believe you deserve at least a +1 circumstance bonus to hit with darts if you have a flagon of beer in your off hand. :smalltongue:

[Thrice Dead Cat]

The issue is how 3.5 trimmed a lot out from 2E. All weapons attack at the same speed (or rather, slowly based on the characters BAB) and you generally have three primary routes with armed gear. For melee, you either grab a greatsword and grab as much strength as possible while power attacking like mad or you focus on smaller weapons and pump up things like sneak attack. For ranged, you generally want skirmish and a means to generate attacks like a madman, but I have seen a few guides for the crossbow user.

Thrown weapons, aside from going bloodstorm blade, are rarely effective. And the case I presented there just turns all melee weapons into thrown weapons, so that is kind of moot.

[mootoall]

Thrown weapons have a salvation in the Talenta Boomerang because of the Boomerand Daze feat. Makes Power Throw almost worth it ...

[Cieyrin]

Thrown weapons have a salvation in the Talenta Boomerang because of the Boomerand Daze feat. Makes Power Throw almost worth it ...

Wouldn't I just want to use a Boomerang, anyways, though? I spent the feat to be proficient in using one, i'm damn well using one, not pulling out a javelin and aim for his head. Orcish Shotput, on the other hand...

[Claudius Maximus]

I suppose darts are mildly superior to throwing daggers at someone, since they have a higher range. But I guess that's about it.

There's also the old 50 Spell Storing Darts trick for buff needles, but I'm pretty sure that doesn't actually work, since Spell Storing is listed as a melee enhancement.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Do keep in mind that Darts in 3.5 are NOT the tiny little things you are probably thinking of. They're more like 3' long mini-javelins. Much like the Pilums which the Romans used to great effect. They do as much damage as a Dagger, and at a longer range.

Why anyone would use one over a Javelin, though, is anyone's guess...

[Ravens_cry]

I haven't seen anybody actually use darts since 2E, when they had a nice rate of fire. Now, wizards don't even get proficiency and they aren't mechanically impressive by any means. Who actually uses darts when you have proficiency in slings, crossbows and javelins or martial ranged weapons? Is there something I'm missing here?
Eh, they were downright broken in AD&D (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10675.0;wap2), so it is hardly surprising they would get a downgrade in 3.X. Besides, they are hardly fantasy thematic weapons. The only time I personally remember a fantasy character, much less a hero, using darts as a weapon was in a childrens version of Pilgrims Progress.

[Thurbane]

Do keep in mind that Darts in 3.5 are NOT the tiny little things you are probably thinking of. They're more like 3' long mini-javelins. Much like the Pilums which the Romans used to great effect. They do as much damage as a Dagger, and at a longer range.

Why anyone would use one over a Javelin, though, is anyone's guess...
Indeed - I still like making jokes as if they are playing darts, though. :smallwink:

As people have pointed out above, they were popular in 1E because they were (if memory serves) the only ranged weapon with a 3/round rate of fire. I remember a guy I played with had a Deep Gnome Fighter who used darts as his primary weapon (Deep Gnomes got some kind of racial bonuses with darts).

[Jack_Simth]

All weapons attack at the same speed (or rather, slowly based on the characters BAB)What would happen if we changed this? Light weapon attack routines are based on 4's, one-handed weapons are based on 5's (the current method for all weapons), and two-handed weapons are based on 6's? (So the Fighter-20 would have an attack routine of +20/+16/+12/+8/+4 with a Light weapon, +20/+15/+10/+5 with a one-handed weapon, and +20/+14/+8/+2 with a two-handed weapon) (and, of course, you were to fold the assorted ranged weapons into the various categories in a similar manner)?

[DiBastet]

Strange, my gf rogues always seem to have some darts on her belt or boot. I guess it's one of those weapons matter of style... Maybe not everything in this game is about equal choices.

Maybe 4e?

[Thrice Dead Cat]

What would happen if we changed this? Light weapon attack routines are based on 4's, one-handed weapons are based on 5's (the current method for all weapons), and two-handed weapons are based on 6's? (So the Fighter-20 would have an attack routine of +20/+16/+12/+8/+4 with a Light weapon, +20/+15/+10/+5 with a one-handed weapon, and +20/+14/+8/+2 with a two-handed weapon) (and, of course, you were to fold the assorted ranged weapons into the various categories in a similar manner)?

For a houserule, that's not bad. It would help rogues out if they went TWFing, such that they would never really be too far behind a fighter in so far as number of attacks go, but it could get a little wonky in some cases and probably lead to a heavy system overhaul.


That said, I have been meaning to brush up on the old Vampire/Werewolf/really all White Wolf initiative systems and adding them to 3.5 where this style of attacks per round would be more accommodated, but that is neither here nor there

[Cieyrin]

What would happen if we changed this? Light weapon attack routines are based on 4's, one-handed weapons are based on 5's (the current method for all weapons), and two-handed weapons are based on 6's? (So the Fighter-20 would have an attack routine of +20/+16/+12/+8/+4 with a Light weapon, +20/+15/+10/+5 with a one-handed weapon, and +20/+14/+8/+2 with a two-handed weapon) (and, of course, you were to fold the assorted ranged weapons into the various categories in a similar manner)?

I like the cut of that jib. It makes a lot of builds more viable (knife fighters, sword and board) in comparison to two-handed weapon wielder supremacy that is the uber-charger. It does make light weapon wielders more full attack dependent, though, which may or may not be a good thing, and it throws two-weapon fighting for a complete loop, though TWF, along with archery, has needed a good rehaul for a long time, which shows up now and again on the forums, I've noticed.

[Knaight]

What would happen if we changed this? Light weapon attack routines are based on 4's, one-handed weapons are based on 5's (the current method for all weapons), and two-handed weapons are based on 6's? (So the Fighter-20 would have an attack routine of +20/+16/+12/+8/+4 with a Light weapon, +20/+15/+10/+5 with a one-handed weapon, and +20/+14/+8/+2 with a two-handed weapon) (and, of course, you were to fold the assorted ranged weapons into the various categories in a similar manner)?

It would make some minor tweaks to balance, none of them significant. It is also really, really odd. For instance, under this system, someone using a heavy mace in one hand with a shield in the other would attack faster than someone using a light spear in both hands. Moreover, a character with a spear in one hand and a shield in the other attacks faster than a character who drops the shield and grabs the spear with their other hand.

[Jude_H]

I think every character I've played has used darts. Mostly because of encumbrance, cost and reload time.

I just realized that one of the benefits my groups have usually given them were a houserule, though - usually we've given them a bonus to hide on a character's person, like a dagger. I'd still probably use them, just because they're cheap, small and can be quickdrawn while moving.

[Deimess]

I think every character I've played has used darts. Mostly because of encumbrance, cost and reload time.

I just realized that one of the benefits my groups have usually given them were a houserule, though - usually we've given them a bonus to hide on a character's person, like a dagger. I'd still probably use them, just because they're cheap, small and can be quickdrawn while moving.

There is this, and one reason someone might use darts is because they don't do a lot of damage. There isn't a core way of doing subdul damage at a range with weapons, so I guess one way they could be used effectively is with disabling poison applied to them and you can strike an important target that you are not trying to kill without doing a lot of damage to him (especially if they don't have a lot of hitpoints).

[Kantolin]

They're light weapons, right?

It occurs to me that it doesn't say that anywhere, but it seems reasonable that Darts are light while javelins are one-handed. If so, it looks pretty good for two-weapon throwers - dagger's low range is irksome if you're planning on being a thrower, and after awhile you don't care about what the base damage of your weapon is terribly much. :P You get to add your strength, so hey.

Pity they're not enchanted like ammo, the way shuriken are.

[Spiryt]

Do keep in mind that Darts in 3.5 are NOT the tiny little things you are probably thinking of. They're more like 3' long mini-javelins. Much like the Pilums which the Romans used to great effect. They do as much damage as a Dagger, and at a longer range.



My little sneak in would be that pila/pilums were in no way "mini" or 3 feet long. More like big heavy javelins.

You're probably thinking about plumbata.

[Cieyrin]

There isn't a core way of doing subdul damage at a range with weapons

The Bolas (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#bolas)would like a word...



They're light weapons, right?

It occurs to me that it doesn't say that anywhere, but it seems reasonable that Darts are light while javelins are one-handed. If so, it looks pretty good for two-weapon throwers - dagger's low range is irksome if you're planning on being a thrower, and after awhile you don't care about what the base damage of your weapon is terribly much. :P You get to add your strength, so hey.

Pity they're not enchanted like ammo, the way shuriken are.


The same rules apply when you throw a weapon from each hand. Treat a dart or shuriken as a light weapon when used in this manner, and treat a bolas, javelin, net, or sling as a one-handed weapon.

There you go. And yeah, I guess I could see that.

[SlashRunner]

It would make some minor tweaks to balance, none of them significant. It is also really, really odd. For instance, under this system, someone using a heavy mace in one hand with a shield in the other would attack faster than someone using a light spear in both hands. Moreover, a character with a spear in one hand and a shield in the other attacks faster than a character who drops the shield and grabs the spear with their other hand.

Either my memory is a bit rusty, or I recall that you get to add 1.5xSTR to damage when you wield a one-handed weapon in two hands. Perhaps it's presumed that when you wield it in two hands, you put more force into your blows, making it harder to attack quickly?

[Jack_Simth]

It would make some minor tweaks to balance, none of them significant. It is also really, really odd. For instance, under this system, someone using a heavy mace in one hand with a shield in the other would attack faster than someone using a light spear in both hands. Moreover, a character with a spear in one hand and a shield in the other attacks faster than a character who drops the shield and grabs the spear with their other hand.No system is without quirks. For instance, at present, the guy holding a dagger in one hand can hit stuff just as often as the guy holding three feet of steel in one hand (Longsword). If you like, think of the extra coordination required when dealing with both hands on one weapon as being represented by how often you can find a good opportunity to land a blow.

And yes, a minor balance tweak is the intent - the goal is to make two-handed weapons vs. Sword-and-board a less clear decision, and to help out the two-weapon fighters a bit (as they do kinda need the help; it takes much more optimization, at present, to make two weapon fighting viable compared to fighting with a two-handed weapon).


I like the cut of that jib. It makes a lot of builds more viable (knife fighters, sword and board) in comparison to two-handed weapon wielder supremacy that is the uber-charger. It does make light weapon wielders more full attack dependent, though, which may or may not be a good thing, and it throws two-weapon fighting for a complete loop, though TWF, along with archery, has needed a good rehaul for a long time, which shows up now and again on the forums, I've noticed.Cool... and kinda the point.
For a houserule, that's not bad. It would help rogues out if they went TWFing, such that they would never really be too far behind a fighter in so far as number of attacks go, but it could get a little wonky in some cases and probably lead to a heavy system overhaul.
Well, how much wonkiness are we looking at? What wonkiness can you see that doesn't already exist in a similar form in the existing 3.5 rules?

That said, I have been meaning to brush up on the old Vampire/Werewolf/really all White Wolf initiative systems and adding them to 3.5 where this style of attacks per round would be more accommodated, but that is neither here nor there
I'm not familiar with the system; how's it work?


Let's see... as to the ranged weapons....
Longbows, crossbows of all stripes, and improvised thrown weapons: Treated as two-handed (based on 6's)
Shortbows, and thrown weapons *not* treated as ammunition: Treated as one-handed (based on 5's)
Thrown weapons that are treated as ammunition (destroyed on a hit, 50% chance of surviving a miss): Treated as light (based on 4's).

[MeeposFire]

There are a lot of weapons that pretty much have no mechanical reason to exist. If I had the time and inclination (and I have neither, but you could have guessed that), I could see it being fun to make up a whole bunch of weapon-specific enhancements, so ONLY darts can use this enhancement, ONLY katars can use this enhancement, ONLY handaxes can use this enhancement, and so on. It'd give them a reason to exist.

Right now? Yeah, there's just nothing special about them.

Ah the 4e design for weapon enchantments.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

My little sneak in would be that pila/pilums were in no way "mini" or 3 feet long. More like big heavy javelins.

You're probably thinking about plumbata.

Ahh yes... the Plumbata... the lead-tipped ones whose primary purpose was to add some twenty pounds of crap on the opponent's tower shield so he couldn't hold it up anymore...

[Hiro Protagonest]

Ahh yes... the Plumbata... the lead-tipped ones whose primary purpose was to add some twenty pounds of crap on the opponent's tower shield so he couldn't hold it up anymore...

No, those are the pilums. :smallconfused:

[ShneekeyTheLost]

No, those are the pilums. :smallconfused:

No, the pilums are longer. The plumbata, from Plumbus, latin for Lead, was attached to the inside of the roman legionnaire's shield, three of 'em. When they encountered another phalanx formation, such as when fighting the greeks, they would cast three rounds of plumbata darts to drop the shield wall.

The pilum was the longer and nastier version which was used after the opponent shield wall was lowered by sheer weight and was designed for killing shots.

[Deimess]

The Bolas (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#bolas)would like a word...



Well i just sort of ruled those out considering they have such a small range and are more expensive, should've been more specific

[Cieyrin]

Well i just sort of ruled those out considering they have such a small range and are more expensive, should've been more specific

The real restriction is just the difference in proficiency, though I think if you're going to bother get proficient in bolas, you're going for the ranged tripping and laugh as he knocks himself out from the sudden stop. Bolas are just stylish and a good a reason as any to be a Justicar. :smallwink: