[PF] How to make a good Arcane Archer?

[Drothmal]

I've always loved the idea of the arcane archer: Using spells to boost your skills as an archer and using the arrows to deliver spells at the same time seems to me not only powerful but flavorful

I was excited when the new PF arcane archer came out, much improved from it's 3.5 counterpart. The idea o adding spell effects to your arrows seemed cool and 7/10 spellcasting levels makes it an interesting option...

But then came the Magus, who basically can add similar bonuses with the use of it's arcane pool (to some extent better since it can be changed from fight to fight). And I started thinking that the Magus, a class NOT designed for being an archer (most of its abilities are for a melee gish type) could be a better option to make the arcane archer...

So, the way I see it
Arcane archer
full BAB
7/10 spell levels. Potentially, this is much better since you can still access lvl 9 spells, but that is only true if you don't take any levels in a melee class. You probably need at least 1-2 levels in a melee class, so you can only get to lvl 8 spells.

Magus
3/4 BAB
Only reaches lvl 6 spells (from a slightly different list)
You are not really using the key class features (spellstrike, spell combat); even though some of the magus arcanae are still useful...
Much better arrow abilities (The arcane pool ability does stack with your bow's enhancement , you can change the abilities depending on what serves the fight the most)


I was trying to think if it would be an intersting idea combining them. So far this is the best idea I've come up with

Magus 8/Arcane archer 3/Magus (whatever else)

this way you could have a good bow with enhancement bonus and use both the Arcane archer and the magus abilities to give yourself 2 elemental attacks

Are there any other ideas? Am I missing the point of the Arcane archer? Is Eldritch knight better? Is there a better/simpler build?


I'm looking for comments, critiques, thoughs.... anything really... I cannot get my head around how to build a good archer that uses magic

EDIT: Small restriction. I'm talking of using PFSRD material only. I know that 3.5 has a lot out there. I'd be surprised if there are no homebrews yet, but I was just thinking of published PF material

[Larpus]

At first I didn't think it was a very good idea, but after giving it some thought and running some basic comparisons, it actually looks promising.

Even by basically giving up quite a number of the Magus' features, it still looks good since this class (and couple others really, even the Bard) basically "breaks" the original intent of the Arcane Archer which, given his low caster requirements, was intended to be used in a Fighter6/Wizard1 fashion, so by using a 3/4 BAB half caster class you end up with considerably more spells than you're supposed to.

And no, I don't think there is an easier way to do it and don't think you're missing anything from the Arcane Pool, since it just says "grant any weapon he is holding", so as far as I can tell it means anything from swords, passing by bows and even a chair if you want to.

That said, the Magus levels before going Arcane Archer might be rather boring due to not being able to use one of your core (and best) class features effectively, but might balance out to a straight archer due to your weapon bonuses and half casting.

[Drothmal]

Yeah, I agree with your assessment. I guess it just feels wrong, so I wanted to check the math...

Who knows though, Paizo's next book (ultimate combat) might bring a magus archer archetype (just saying, replace spellstrike for an ability that allows for ranged touch attacks to allow for a single shot to be fired + allow spell combat to shot a single shot with a -4 bonus and you're set)

I guess you are right and the Arcane archer was meant to be 5fighter/2wizard... it just makes me sad that it's so easy to make a better arcane archer with a class not designed for it at all...

[ericgrau]

Magus isn't full BAB though, and misses are painful. I'd like to see the total enhancements and attack bonus worked out for each option.

Ya arcane archers are typically fighters with a wizard dip but you can also be a wizard and take an arcane archer dip purely for the level 2 ability, then stop there in the PrC. There are only a few spells that exploit this, but the anti-magic field arrows are enough by themselves.

[Drothmal]

stopping for just a +1 to arrows (which do not stack with the bow enhancement, which is likely to be higher by then) and just imbue arrow? I've never seen imbue arrow as so great, but I could be wrong. Also, to get to the +6 BAB you need as prerequisite, you'd need a wizard 8/fighter 2, which means you'd be taking the Arcane archer 2 levels after the magus....

I agree that 3/4 BAB means more misses, but I think that using the arcane pool should be more than enough. Using the pool just for enhancement, you get

lvl 1-5: Magus has +1 to damage Same attack and damage (fighters get weapon training now)
lvl 6-7: Magus has a +2 do damage (assuming that you take 2 levels of wizard here) Magus has +1 to attack and damage, more spells, more skills and light armor casting (medium by lvl 7). Though magus should have 2 less hit points on average (if my math is right)
Then you can already enter the Arcane archer with a classic Fgtr5/Wiz2 build, but you need one more magus lvl
lvl 8: Magus is probably still ahead on hit and damage (since the +1 to arrows probably does not matter). Both get same SP, classic build gets another HP

Basically, if you use the pool for just plain enhancement that stacks with whatever you put on the bow, you have equivalent to hit chance. You can sacrifice some to hit for abilities like frost or fire, depending on the fight. Eventually, you can get speed, which is arguably one of the best options

Besides, you can cast spells to make yourself better, like cat's grace, and all of a sudden you are ahead in to hit and damage with respect to a fighter5/wizard 2 build

EDIT: I guess the mostly wizard with a warrior dip for just the imbue arrow is a possibility, but it just doesn't feel like an arcane archer... It's just a wizard who does a bit of archery, not a blend of magic and ranged

[ericgrau]

A couple points of attack bonus is far more useful than a couple points of damage. Spending your turn attacking yields more total damage per combat than spending a turn on cat's grace. Not to mention it doesn't stack with gloves of dexterity so there's no point to quickening it either.

The point of the arcane dip is mainly for the AMF arrows, and maybe some other minor spells. Sniped wail of the banshee and disjunction could become silly good too. You're still mainly a wizard with this option ya. No need to dip a non-caster class to meet the pre-reqs.

[Drothmal]

The math I showed shows the same bonus to attack.

I should stand corrected with respect to the damage though, since the fighter now gets weapon training.... Both attack and damage come out the same

It's not the most efficient thing to buff yourself in combat, but if you can do it out of combat (by scouting with invisibility, casting all your buffs and then attacking), you start to edge ahead of a more classical build: You can buff your strength if you already have an item that gives you DEX (which is still a bit expensive when you can first cast it). And, as you said, if the # of attacks is what matters, having access to haste then puts the magus ahead

Not dipping at all in a non-caster class means you cannot take Arcane archer till level 13. At that point, I think that not continuing with just wizard and getting the AMF arrows makes you a one trick pony, not an arcane archer

[ericgrau]

Oh the wizard entry casts normal spells in addition to AMF arrows. Otherwise he doesn't shoot much. Before that point, you also cast normal spells, without any arrows.

A typical archer build grabs boots of speed for haste as a free action, though getting it earlier might be nice. Potions cover rare buffs. I also like to take fighter to 8 for greater weapon focus. Weapon spec doesn't hurt either if you can spare the feat. 5 bonus feats are nice for that matter. More spells might be nice too, I dunno. It could be an option either way. But since you can't do both actions at the same time at range, they're limited. I think the most useful things spells be stuff like greater magic weapon and flame arrow. Then does that put the magus ahead in attack bonus and damage?

Of note the magus entry effectively starts 4 caster levels ahead but loses one of those at levels 6 and 10 of arcane archer.

[Drothmal]

Oh the wizard casts normal spells in addition to AMF arrows. Otherwise he doesn't shoot much. Before that point, you also cast normal spells, without any arrows.

I agree and that is a valid/intersting idea. But is more of a tweakes wizard than an archer/spellcaster


A typical archer build grabs boots of speed for haste as a free action, though getting it earlier might be nice. Potions cover rare buffs. I also like to take fighter to 8 for greater weapon focus. Weapon spec doesn't hurt either if you can spare the feat. 5 bonus feats are nice for that matter. More spells might be nice too, I dunno. It could be an option either way. But since you can't do both actions at the same time at range, they're limited. I think the most useful things might be stuff like greater magic weapon and flame arrow. Then does that put the magus ahead in attack bonus and damage?

-Boots of haste are expensive, you can use that money for a better weapon or a better DEX enhancement if you have access to haste
-Similar point for potions, they drain your WBL. But you are right, you can get around it
- I completely agree that not being able to do both things at the same time is a great detriment to the idea, but my point was that Arcane archer doesn't let you do it either, and Magus offers a lot of buffs and gives you more spells and better spell levels
-Probably flame arrow and GMW combined with the arcane pool (since it stacks) probably put you over.

-I concede that the build for a Magus is rather feat starved... You pretty much have to go human to make it work...


-you are right about the loosing the levels. I guess one of my questions was if a 3 level dip on arcane archer and then going back to Magus doesn't effectively give you a better feel for the arcane archer archetype/idea


EDIT: Thank you for discussing this with me! I really wanted to hear opinions and was discouraged that no one was answering :smallfrown: I'm enjoying teh debate and you are making some excellent points.

Just making sure I'm not being unpleasant about this conversation

[ericgrau]

Gold for gold, nothing else comes close to boots of speed in terms of damage boosting. Getting the haste as a free action instead of a standard is crazy good too. But if your party is full of martial characters and no other wizard it might be nice to cast it instead. Or for low-mid levels. At higher levels boots of speed is almost an automatic buy for everyone, even if it takes a big chunk of your WBL to get them.

I figured that the 3rd level hour or 10 min buffs would give magus the advantage, but I'm too lazy to do the math to confirm. Don't forget to include the archery feats, fighter tree feats and class features when making a comparison. Something to check before making the build. If you're too lazy to check monster AC & etc. you can guestimate +1 attack bonus as about 7% more hits (and thus 7% more damage).

[Drothmal]

Fair enough, I guess I forgot it gave it as a free action.... That is better than using the arcane pool for speed enhancement

[Wagadodo]

There is a pretty good discusion on an Arcan Archer Magus on the Paizo boards right now. With the Magus you are allowed to boost up your weapon up with your arcane pool, I think if I was going to do it, I would go Magus 11, Arcane Archer 9.

That way you can get to improved spell recall.

[Drothmal]

Do you have the link to the thread? I'm on my phone right now and the Paizo boards search does not work well with the smartphone

[Wagadodo]

http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderRPG/advice/magusArcaneArcherBuild/

There you go

[Drothmal]

Thanks!

Damn message being too short to be posted

[BoutsofInsanity]

Honestly, if you can, just play a duskblade, and have your dm allow you to imbue your arrows with your spells, use a composite longbow mighty and your good. You can stack spells on your arrows, utility abounds, a fighter's bab, medium armor, and you can still melee when needed. Obviously, however, in a high op campaign it wont work, but im using one effectivily.

[Wagadodo]

The ability to go Nova is in the Duskblades favor, and the number of spells being able to cast during the day. But the Magus does make up for it in, Utility. Duskblade wouldn't have access to Vanish, which is a very a good spell to have at first level. But the Magus does have the fun ability to attack, plus cast any during a normal combat where a duskblade can only do a touch spell.

Plus with the Magus you can add nifty abilities to you weapon to make it magic for minutes at time, where as Duskblade you must cast a spell to do the same thing.

[Drothmal]

And duskblade requires (minimum) changes to make it PF playable. And it is not accepted in PF only games

Thanks for the link to the other debate. It does confirm my suspicions... I must say that I'm still not sure that going all 9 levels of Arcane archer is good enough, but there is a point to be made that the higher level magus abilities are not as useful for an archer type...

[Wagadodo]

That is true, if you are going Archery, you do not need to go past 11th level for any reason at all. Everything beyond that point is for Melee characters. You might the only advantage would be qualifying for some of the higher Magus Arcana... But it by rules it says you must be 15th level to take Quicken Magic.. So you could take Extra Arcana at 15th level feat to get it I guess.

The only good thing that you would be missing out on would be the captstone, but it is not worth slogging out to get into it.

The only thing is that you won't qualify for the Arcane Archer till 9th level. Which I guess is only 2 levels behind the tradional ways.

I would still advocate the 11 Magus, 9 Arcane Archer just to get the Improved Spell recall, and the free combat feet, and allows you to qualify for weapons specialization by being a considered a 5th level fighter in the terms of feats.

I know it gets it to you late in the game, but it also give you the ability to get Point Blank Master feat, that allows you to avoid attacks oppurtnity when using a bow in threaten square.