Defeating Knock

[bloodtide]

So I was thinking of all the ways to defeat knock, or at least make it a bit harder for the knock using spellcaster to just open any door they want too. What things can be done to protect ones bulidings and doors from knock?

Here is what I thought of so far, anyone else have any more?

How to defeat knock.
Mundane:
1.More then one lock on each door. Three at least. Sure it might take you a big longer to open the door, but it will also drain knock spells quick. Always bar the doors when not in use. This, of course, adds another knock spell use. So using just mundane acts alone, a person will need three knock spells to open the door(two for each two locks, one for the bar).
2.Barred gates and portcullis are immune to knock, so you should naturally have them anywhere you have the room.
3.Also chains are 'rope and vine like' and are not effected by knock. You can also use other methods of blocking and holding shut a door the knock does not work against. For example, having a stone block rise from the floor to prevent the doors movement.
4.Knock also only effects doors, so if you have a staircase that you can move into a slide, knock would have no effect on that. The same would go for a moveable bridge.
5.You should also make sure that all chests, cabinets, boxes or the like all also have at least three locks.

Magic:
1.cast hold portal or arcane lock, for two knock uses. If you do, make sure you add another lock to keep the number of knock spells uneven(If a door has for locks, one bar, and is held that is three knock spells, so add one more lock for five to make it four knock spells.)
2.A permanent animated object of a door is a nice touch, as it is a creature and is immune to knock.
3.Sign of sealing and greater sign of sealing are must haves for a spellcaster. Both spells are permanent and the greater sign has the additional power that it makes a door immune to knock all together.
4.Any anti-magic field is, of course, the ultimate way to stop knock or any magic.

[Optimator]

Good to know.

[holywhippet]

Antimagic field of course - kind of costly though.

[Alabenson]

Out of curiosity, are you looking for ways to keep the party arcanist from making the skillmonkey feel useless, or is this just a mental exercise as to how people in D&D would protect themselves from mages with knock.

[Divide by Zero]

Ask, "Who's there?"

[Thurbane]

Is there any special materials or permanent alchemical items that resist or repel magic? If you made a locking mechanism entirely of such a material, it would become resistant to Knock.

Or place some kind of Spell Eating trap on the door?

[crazyhedgewizrd]

you can have the door jam all the time, and you have to make str checks to open it. There we got the fighter involved now

[bloodtide]

Out of curiosity, are you looking for ways to keep the party arcanist from making the skillmonkey feel useless, or is this just a mental exercise as to how people in D&D would protect themselves from mages with knock.

Neither exactly. My game world is 'real' to me and my players. So it's far from a mental exercise to say ''what would we do about knock?''. The idea that everyone just sits around and makes 'normal' doors that knock can open is just silly. People would craft defenses, both magical and mundane.

And I don't believe in all that party 'stuff', I'm a Status Que type DM.

[HappyBlanket]

You don't believe in 'stuff'?

[bloodtide]

You don't believe in 'stuff'?

I don't believe in all the 'stuff' about party balance and that every single player must be happy every single second on the game. Basically, the game philosophy that took over after 3E. The idea that every player must be fair and balanced and equal and contribute at all times to have fun, and so forth. The stuff that boards like this are full of...just look around.

[Eldest]

Two points. One, barring the door counts as lock for the purpose of the Knock spell. Two, if this is in a dungeon just have every door have a moderate to easy lock on it. Does the caster really want to spend all his/her spell slots on knock?
Third point I just thought of: if chains block Knock, then every door can have those little security chains. It's still breakable, but it's better.

[HappyBlanket]

I don't believe in all the 'stuff' about party balance and that every single player must be happy every single second on the game. Basically, the game philosophy that took over after 3E. The idea that every player must be fair and balanced and equal and contribute at all times to have fun, and so forth. The stuff that boards like this are full of...just look around.

First off; don't talk about us like we're degenerates.
Second, in the interest of not indulging my foremost reaction; I believe you've covered most of your bases, really. The measures you've come up with should be sufficient from a realism stand point, with magical means being for the particularly cautious.

[Malimar]

A deadlock seal is the best way.

...:smallbiggrin:

[Bhaakon]

Hidden door next to a fake one, preferably with multiple "locks". Several castings of knock later, the group realizes that they've been trying to open a well decorated brick wall.

[ericgrau]

Any class can defeat a door easily. In fact knock is perhaps the most resource intensive way to do it. The main purpose of doors are to slow down the party. Thus you need to combine them with monsters or other urgent challenges so that PCs don't have time to bust down the door right away.

[Dimers]

A lock that's mechanically designed so that the act of unlocking it causes another mechanism to lock, unless you take a special extra action while unlocking. You could have two such mechanisms go back and forth all day.

Very heavy doors are good too, especially in a place with huge brutish enemies. They can move freely and 'lesser' creatures like PCs can't.

[Glimbur]

There's no kill like overkill (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/guardsAndWards.htm). You would probably have to cast it every day, and as a 6th level spell that's mighty annoying. A minor schema (Magic of Eberron) of it is only about 26K, which is pretty ridiculous. But if you want the best in "annoying your PC's so much that they bribe a guy so they can teleport past it" then Guards and Wards is your spell.

[Curmudgeon]

I really like stuck, barred, locked doors in front of solid walls, and self-closing hidden (real) doors behind furniture (bookcases, wardrobes, & c.) that slides aside easily on furniture glides. Since the furniture covers the actual doors, Knock can successfully open those hidden doors (which swing shut smoothly on their own) without the spellcaster knowing their spell succeeded. (After all, Knock opens secret doors, but doesn't keep them open.) Basically until they move the furniture and then cast Knock they probably won't find the door.

[Thurbane]

There are a couple of items of Wondrous Architecture in the Stronghold Builders Guidebook that will defeat Knock: Sigils of Antimagic, Sigils of Suppression and Sigils of Suppression (Lesser) will all work, but the cheapest is 14,000gp.

[Rei_Jin]

I'm surprised that no-one has mentioned the obvious one as yet.... having really, REALLY big doors. The spell only effects up to 10 square feet per caster level, which at the minimum CL is 30 square foot (a door 6 feet by 5 feet at most, for example).

If you have a level 5 caster trying to use it, throw a door that's 10 feet high and 10 feet wide at him. No way to cast Knock on it successfully now!

I wouldn't do it too often, but on really important rooms I would use it, or ocassionally on random doors just to screw with them.

[Yora]

You don't have to affect the whole door, just the lock.

[Curmudgeon]

You don't have to affect the whole door, just the lock.
Really? It's worth checking:
Target: One door, box, or chest with an area of up to 10 sq. ft./level You cannot target a lock with Knock.

[Dimers]

Really? It's worth checking: You cannot target a lock with Knock.

Good thing, too, because otherwise keeping the lock out of sight would preclude any use of knock.

[Rei_Jin]

The reason why I said that this is an obvious one, is that it is explicitly mentioned in the Epic Level Handbook as a way to foil spellcasters who think they have the answer to everything (see page 105 of that book for more info)

[ericgrau]

Weird, my epic non-caster had an answer to everything via a gazillion random magic items, including that one. He could walk through walls. And once he realized we were getting hundreds of thousands of gp per encounter and he could afford to blow a bit to win, it got worse. He once used a figurine of wondrous power to feed an epic gigantic bulette a meal and prevent a fight.

[Ravens_cry]

Out of curiosity, are you looking for ways to keep the party arcanist from making the skillmonkey feel useless, or is this just a mental exercise as to how people in D&D would protect themselves from mages with knock.
Both are worthy and not necessarily mutually exclusive goals. The latter is especially important to me in medium to high magic worlds. If cheap wizard tricks are fairly common, or even known, people are going to take precautions to prevent them, whether mundanely or with other magic.

[Seharvepernfan]

You don't believe in 'stuff'?

Oh boy, looks like we've got a stuff-ist...:smalltongue:
THE STUFF IS A LIE!!!
One cheap way is to have a hundred little granny slider locks on the door which are easily broken but take up a ton of knock spells. You'd need one good bar to make the door hard to break down.

I use a houserule that knock lets a caster use his spellcraft instead of open lock, instead of it just opening automatically (though it still works normally against things that aren't locks).

Also, a long time ago somebody posted a thread about their homebrew metal Antinium is a metal that naturally emits an anti-magic field. However this anti-magic field only covers the area of the metal itself.

Armor
That means that antinium armor and shields can block some spells that fire projectiles or rays, like disintegrate, but only if they hit the armor itself and not some other part of the target's body or clothing. It provides no defense against spells like Hold Person that do not fire anything. If someone wearing Antinium armor is plane shifted they vanish and their armor remains behind. Antinium armor prevents spells like Enlarge Person, since the armor remains the same size and restrains their growth, but not Reduce Person since they can shrink and be inside overlarge armor.

Weapons
Antinium weapons ignore most forms of magical protection, and oddly enough count as magic weapons for the purposes of bypassing damage reduction even if they have no enhancement bonus since damage reduction/magic is usually magical itself. But antinium weapons will always be limited by the fact that they cannot be enchanted. Antinium projectiles must be made entirely out of antinium alloy, or a defensive spell such as Protection from Arrows might deflect the non-metallic components.

Defenses
A lock with antinium components is immune to Knock spells. Mixing antinium dust with bricks, plaster, or mortar will block passwall spells and ethereal creatures. Antinium trap triggers cannot be directly manipulated by unseen servants or mage hand. Antinium doors, though absurdly expensive, are difficult to magically blast open.

Metal Strength
Antinium is as strong as iron, but is often alloyed with other metals to improve its quality. This gives it the strength and properties of the secondary metal, in addition to its antimagic field. which Id liked to see priced. I might make a new thread about it here soon.

[Trouvere]

As is not uncommon with spell descriptions, our understanding of Knock's mechanism of action is imperfect.

There is a door. In the door is a keyhole associated with a lock. On the far side of the door is a bolt (incidentally, does a simple bolt or bar utterly defeat Open Lock?)

So we cast Knock on the door; it opens the lock and draws back the bolt. No other spell could be straightforwardly cast on the bolt, due to lack of line of effect, but Knock regards the bolt as part of the door itself, so doesn't care.

Suppose, though, the bolt were kept in place with a padlock. This is not a lock on the door, note; it's a lock on the bolt. It's a one step remove. Would Knock do anything to it?

In any case, if ever they make a door that defeats Knock, we'll just use Wood Shape on it, or Stone Shape on the wall to one side, or Time Hop every obstacle out of the way.

[Eldan]

There is a door. In the door is a keyhole associated with a lock. On the far side of the door is a bolt (incidentally, does a simple bolt or bar utterly defeat Open Lock?)
.

As in, the Skill? No. There are ways around it in the real world, so I'd allow it in the game, with appropriate checks.

[JBento]

I really like stuck, barred, locked doors in front of solid walls, and self-closing hidden (real) doors behind furniture (bookcases, wardrobes, & c.) that slides aside easily on furniture glides. Since the furniture covers the actual doors, Knock can successfully open those hidden doors (which swing shut smoothly on their own) without the spellcaster knowing their spell succeeded. (After all, Knock opens secret doors, but doesn't keep them open.) Basically until they move the furniture and then cast Knock they probably won't find the door.

I'm a bit confused with this reasoning - don't they have to do find the secret door first anyway? Since the spell is targeted, and non-ray, not only do they have to know it's there, they have to be able to see it (like sleep or hold person). Or am I wrong?

I'm also a bit baffled at the purpose of the thread - using a spell slot is the LEAST effective way to open a door. It's certainly more resource intensive than just using the skill or bashing the whole thing down (admitedly, this last method prevents any attempt at stealth). People's wizards actually go around with knock memorised? Or worse, their sorcerers blow a spell known on it? :smalleek:

[mootoall]

To deal with magic being common, we use the standard Tippyverse solution: resetting magical traps! Trap of Knock set to dispell.

[Curmudgeon]

I'm a bit confused with this reasoning - don't they have to do find the secret door first anyway? Since the spell is targeted, and non-ray, not only do they have to know it's there, they have to be able to see it (like sleep or hold person). Or am I wrong?
There are limitations to the level of detail you get when you find secret doors, either via skill or magic. Someone using Knock is probably going to use magic to find secret doors, but Search is also limited; a check will find secret doors within 10' of you, but there's nothing that says it will tell you the door is not the bookcase itself but rather immediately behind that bookcase, until you move the bookcase and Search some more. The Detect Secret Doors (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/detectSecretDoors.htm) spell will tell you
2nd Round

Number of secret doors and the location of each. If an aura is outside your line of sight, then you discern its direction but not its exact location. ... and you still won't know if the door is the back panel of the bookcase behind the books, or in the wall behind that.

Either way, there's plenty of opportunity to waste Knock when you don't have line of effect to the actual secret door.
An otherwise solid barrier with a hole of at least 1 square foot through it does not block a spell’s line of effect. To be sure you've got the right target you'd need to remove stuff (like the books on one shelf) until you've got a clear area of 1 square foot or larger, and try Detect Secret Doors again. Most spellcasters would just cast Knock (since it's only 1 level higher than Detect Secret Doors) and fail. And because Knock will also seem to have no effect if there are more than two means of preventing egress, they might waste a second casting as well. :smallsmile:

[Telonius]

My preferred method of defeating Knock: don't have doors. The entire point of a locked door is to keep some things out while letting others in. Spending all of that effort on keeping a single door closed - a door which you'll presumably need to open at some point, or you'd just have a wall - seems kind of silly. Why not just pay a Cleric to cast Forbiddance on the hallway, then have an Eternal Wand of Alarm

[gbprime]

The knock spell opens stuck, barred, locked, held, or arcane locked doors. It opens secret doors, as well as locked or trick-opening boxes or chests. It also loosens welds, shackles, or chains (provided they serve to hold closures shut). If used to open a arcane locked door, the spell does not remove the arcane lock but simply suspends its functioning for 10 minutes. In all other cases, the door does not relock itself or become stuck again on its own. Knock does not raise barred gates or similar impediments (such as a portcullis), nor does it affect ropes, vines, and the like. The effect is limited by the area. Each spell can undo as many as two means of preventing egress.


Yeah, you target the DOOR, not the lock. So no matter how many locks the door has or where they are, Knock unlocks them. it also works on chains and things.

The only foolproof way I know of to proof a door against Knock without spending an amazing amount of money on antimagic is to use two locks that are connected inside. Unlocking the first one LOCKS the second one and vice versa. And since the Knock spell is instantaneous, it can't stop the second lock from locking.

So the only way through the door is having your rogue work at least ONE of these locks (I recommend Amazing quality) or actually finding both keys.

Or beat the door apart, of course. :smallwink:

[Curmudgeon]

Yeah, you target the DOOR, not the lock. So no matter how many locks the door has or where they are, Knock unlocks them.
That's only true if you keep casting Knock:
Each spell can undo as many as two means of preventing egress.

[Eldan]

My preferred method of defeating Knock: don't have doors. The entire point of a locked door is to keep some things out while letting others in. Spending all of that effort on keeping a single door closed - a door which you'll presumably need to open at some point, or you'd just have a wall - seems kind of silly. Why not just pay a Cleric to cast Forbiddance on the hallway, then have an Eternal Wand of Alarm

Perfect!

Actually, I suggest just having no entrances and using Passwall or similar.

[Darcand]

Yeah, you target the DOOR, not the lock. So no matter how many locks the door has or where they are, Knock unlocks them. it also works on chains and things.

The only foolproof way I know of to proof a door against Knock without spending an amazing amount of money on antimagic is to use two locks that are connected inside. Unlocking the first one LOCKS the second one and vice versa. And since the Knock spell is instantaneous, it can't stop the second lock from locking.

So the only way through the door is having your rogue work at least ONE of these locks (I recommend Amazing quality) or actually finding both keys.

Or beat the door apart, of course. :smallwink:

The best anti-knock I've seen was a single lock, but weighted so that it immediately relocked unless a key was currently turned in it. Our wizard used three castings from a wand on it before we figured that one out.

[Person_Man]

I've found that the most effective lock is no lock at all.

When I lived in a very un-safe neighborhood in West Philadelphia we had a fool proof method of preventing break ins - three stories of rickety, very narrow stairs with no landings for the entire climb and no railway to hold on to. It was a very old building, which someone had converted the top floor of into a really cruddy apartment. We seriously left our door unlocked, and never once got robbed (or had return visitors), despite having a large number of homeless people and drug dealers living in close proximity.

Inspired by this, I created an adventure where the Arch-Wizard BBEG decided to live in a comfy extra-dimensional space hidden inside a dilapidated hut, which was strategically located between a dangerous mountain range filled with marauding ogres and huge ancient ruins overrun with undead. You could easily get to the hut just walking around the ancient ruins or the dangerous mountain range. And the Arch-Wizard even went into town on a weekly basis to buy supplies and talk with friends, and could theoretically be followed back to his home via mundane Tracking abilities (which the players would have found out, if they had bothered to roleplay at all, instead of just charging out in the direction of treasure immediately after the plot hook introduction).

They never found the BBEG, and eventually just moved on to another adventure.

[only1doug]

I gave my party a wand of Knock... At least thats what they originally though it was...

When they used it they realised that it was cursed.

Twisted Oak wand: Batter (as Knock but very noisy)

[Candleke]

You could have a door with a handle and latch(not sure if i am describing it right) where when the player say's "I open the door" they must have pushed the latch down and have the latch lock the door when pressed.....kinda jerky but also not that hard to figure out, maybe side track them with a couple obvious pressure plates on the wall next to the door that do 'interesting things'.

Like pressing one plate dyes there hand green, and then another opens a small compartment with some aged cheddar in it, or if they press all of the plates it summons 1d10 yapping puppies.

[erikun]

Use a mechanically self-resetting trap that locks the door. No matter how many times they unlock it, it will stay locked until someone disables the trap.

You know you want to. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z86V_ICUCD4)

[Andorax]

Maybe I missed it earlier, but one obvious solution occured to me.

Traps.

Knock may open the door, but it won't DISARM it. Not all traps are lethal, so adjust according to whoever's door it is.

Rogues can check for traps, then disarm, then open. Knock just causes things to blow up in your face.

[JBento]

Reading the spell description makes it obvious what the anti-knock trick is:

put a loop of rope around the handle after you pass through.

Then let them knock away all they want - note how the spell works on chains, but not on ropes or vines.

[Ravens_cry]

Reading the spell description makes it obvious what the anti-knock trick is:

put a loop of rope around the handle after you pass through.

Then let them knock away all they want - note how the spell works on chains, but not on ropes or vines.
There is other spells (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/animateRope.htm) for that though.

[Curmudgeon]

There is other spells (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/animateRope.htm) for that though.
If you've already gotten to the other side of the door so you can target the rope, why would you bother? :smallconfused:

[Ravens_cry]

If you've already gotten to the other side of the door so you can target the rope, why would you bother? :smallconfused:
:smalleek:
An excellent question worthy of an excellent answer, and when I think of one I will tell you.

[fryplink]

I've never used the knock spell horribly effectively, always preferring the far more versatile shatter spell right on the lock, by targeting either the lock, the hinge(s) or whatever bit of wall the door was attached to, unless I'm aiming for stealth specifically (the shatter spell only describes itself as loud for the AoE version, but destroying the door means ill be discovered eventually) then I use unseen servant and have it open the door from the other side, where you just turn a knob

[prufock]

Polymorph Any Object on familiar to turn it into a door (preferably a very thick adamantine one).
Cast Arcane Lock on familiar
Share Spell with familiar - Contingency "When Knock is cast on me, cast Arcane Lock on me."

I'm sure there are simpler ways that don't require 8th level spells, though. Also, this only lasts about an hour.

EDIT: If you can find a way to make Personal range spells to affect others, it doesn't need to be your familiar, just a door.

[Curmudgeon]

I've never used the knock spell horribly effectively, always preferring the far more versatile shatter spell right on the lock, by targeting either the lock, the hinge(s) or whatever bit of wall the door was attached to
Your DM has been letting you abuse the spell, then. Shatter can only target objects, not parts of objects. (Basically if you can grab it, move it vigorously by itself, and nothing flies off, it's an object. If you can't do that, it's not.) If you disassemble the door you'll have turned its parts into separate objects, but until that happens you can only target the door itself. And "a bit of wall" is definitely not a separate object. :smallannoyed:

Low level spells have limits for a reason.
Alternatively, you can target shatter against a single solid object, regardless of composition, weighing up to 10 pounds per caster level. Assuming you can target parts of objects lets you ignore that limit. Please ask your DM to make you write "I will not abuse Shatter" 500 times. :smallwink:

[fryplink]

Your DM has been letting you abuse the spell, then. Shatter can only target objects, not parts of objects. (Basically if you can grab it, move it vigorously by itself, and nothing flies off, it's an object. If you can't do that, it's not.) If you disassemble the door you'll have turned its parts into separate objects, but until that happens you can only target the door itself. And "a bit of wall" is definitely not a separate object. :smallannoyed:

Low level spells have limits for a reason. Assuming you can target parts of objects lets you ignore that limit. Please ask your DM to make you write "I will not abuse Shatter" 500 times. :smallwink:

Hehe, he too it as "Lock" is an object and "Hinge" was an object and "Doorframe" was an object.

I never truely abused to the same standards as the rest of the party abused it. They used it to devastating effect by sundering the stone at the bottom of a pillar then dimension jumping out.

We play rules light Dnd anyway, seeing as our two primary dm's also GM paranoia (being a friend of mine and myself) and tend to moderate the game very similarly.

The reason i wished to post this in this thread is that, if he makes knock useless, he is begging for another "disable device" spell to replace it, such as unseen servant, shatter, mage hand (can't unlock doors, but is very versitile) and the like.

[NNescio]

H
The reason i wished to post this in this thread is that, if he makes knock useless, he is begging for another "disable device" spell to replace it, such as unseen servant, shatter, mage hand (can't unlock doors, but is very versitile) and the like.

Heroics: Stone Dragon Lockpick

Preferably on someone who can recover maneuvers or have a high melee damage, but the wizard himself can make it work as well, 'though slower.

[Urpriest]

Doors are mostly a convenience for the party anyway. Doors are things to hide behind to keep the entire dungeon/castle/whatever of enemies from hearing and seeing you and making it all one big encounter.

So essentially I agree with previous posters: no doors is the best solution. Only make your players take time to unlock doors if there's a reason that something should be difficult, like a bank vault or something.

[NNescio]

On a side note, don't ever, ever make any door out of adamantine. Unless you are dead sure the party can't cart it (or parts of it) away.

[jguy]

Question: If you are locking, barring, chaining ect ect this door, it obviously leads to something important. How do -you- as the owner of said important thing get inside and out and still lock all these things?

[erikun]

Question: If you are locking, barring, chaining ect ect this door, it obviously leads to something important. How do -you- as the owner of said important thing get inside and out and still lock all these things?
Teleport without Error

[Bouregard]

Teleport without Error

Then why bother with a door?

[Curmudgeon]

Then why bother with a door?
To slow down and frustrate the PCs, of course. :smallbiggrin:

[NNescio]

To slow down and frustrate the PCs, of course. :smallbiggrin:

Have it lead nowhere.

Or a wall, to be exact. :smallbiggrin:

[Curmudgeon]

I really like stuck, barred, locked doors in front of solid walls ...

Have it lead nowhere.

Or a wall, to be exact. :smallbiggrin:
Gee, why didn't I think of that? :smallwink: