Can a Synthesist Summoner Tank? (PF)

[panaikhan]

Simple enough question.
I was considering a Barbarian / Oracle / Rage Prophet build for an up-coming jaunt through Serpent's Skull, but having just recieved my copy of Ultimate Magic, I am sorely tempted by the Synthesist Summoner.

Anyone offer any advice?

[CTrees]

-You can easily have a ridiculous number of hitpoints. Remember that you have your hit dice PLUS your eidolon's hit dice, both based on the same CON score, meaning you can get double duty out of CON bonuses (ex., at level nine a +2 Belt of Con will give you sixteen HP, and 35 at level 20).
-Energy Resistance/Immunity for cheap ain't half bad for tanking.
-Depending on how you interpret wearing armor, your AC can be huge. Put on your armor, then summon the eidolon (having put all the eidolon's armor bonuses into NA). The synthesist entry says you can still use your gear, normal summoners (but not eidolons) can wear armor, and nothing excludes wearing armor. Thus... it looks like if you do things in the right order, you can put on Celestial Armor and then summon your eidolon, get a huge NA bonus (and improved NA and high DEX). Even if your DM doesn't go for this interpretation (people seem fairly split on this), your AC will still be pretty darn good (Mage Armor, etc.)
-The Reach evolution doesn't limit itself to natural attacks, like most of them do. This omission makes it look like you're supposed to be able to use it with weapons. Large, a reach weapon with trip, the Reach evolution, and some trip-feats can help you lock down a huge area, better than most classes in PF.

All-in-all, I'd say that yes, the Synthesist can tank pretty well. Especially doing things as a backup like lesser metamagic wand of dazing + Wall of Fire (since the spell level is discounted for the summoner) + fire resistance.

EDIT: At level one, if you go max HP at first level for both you and your eidolon (depends on group, really), at level one you should have twenty HP. At level twenty, with a huge eidolon, and say, 30 CON (very, very easy, considering you'll START with 25, min), you'll have effectively 20d8+15d10+350HP, for an average (using the max at 1st, above), you'll have an average of 530HP, which... isn't bad at all, for a gish. Also, at level twenty, huge, Improved NA five times (it's very cheap for the benefit), and no other options being taken to increase AC (the Improved NA feat, dodge, Ability Increase: Dex, etc.) you'll have an AC of 45, completely naked (if I did my math right). Not a bad place from which to start.

[Barstro]

Maybe I am misreading the Synthesist rules, but I see a few drawbacks.

As mentioned, armor may or may not count. By pure language, nothing restricts armor and the Eidolon is considered temporary hitpoints. However, the "reality" of the Synthesist is that he is surrounded by the Eidolon, so his armor should never come into play. You would need a DM ruling.

I believe that the Eidolon does not get Feats with a Synthesist. So, any feats you want to take to be a better fighter takes away from your ability to be a caster.

Because your strength comes only from your Eidolon, you become worthless (as a tank) if you lose it. If you fall asleep or go unconscious, you lose almost all protection.

I think it would be a great tank at early levels, when baddies won't be casting your Eidolon back to its own dimension. Later, it might be better to be a striker instead of a tank so there is a better chance that you won't immediately get killed if you lose your Eidolon. The nice part is, you get to make the Eidolon into whatever you need him to be, as long as you pick your Feats correctly.

[Prime32]

Because your strength comes only from your Eidolon, you become worthless (as a tank) if you lose it. If you fall asleep or go unconscious, you lose almost all protection.There's a feat for that.

Also you can restore your eidolon's hp by killing it and re-summoning.

[CTrees]

Also, any temporary effects (banishment, long duration sleep) and the "ambushed while you sleep" scenario can be handled by the Summon Eidolon spell. It's a stopgap, but a potentially life saving one.

Being feat starved is a big issue, yeah. I'll give you that.

The armor... That debate really doesn't seem resolvable - unless Paizo publishes a clarification (heh) it's going to be "can you convince your DM." Even without it, though, you can get a hardcore AC very easily.

[Barstro]

There's a feat for that.

Also you can restore your eidolon's hp by killing it and re-summoning.

That restores half, and you cannot do it until the next day. You could use the summoning spell mid-battle to get it for a minute per level, with the inability to touch anything with resistance to evil. But that still would benefit only that specific fight.

EDIT: ninja. Didn't see it coming at all.

[Barstro]

-You can easily have a ridiculous number of hitpoints. Remember that you have your hit dice PLUS your eidolon's hit dice, both based on the same CON score, meaning you can get double duty out of CON bonuses (ex., at level nine a +2 Belt of Con will give you sixteen HP, and 35 at level 20).

Are you certain? You get the Eidolon's con when merged. Does that definitely mean that you get the per-level bonus to your own HPs when merged just because the Eidolon is wearing the belt?

[Larpus]

There are certainly bonuses and drawbacks on the idea. Other than the mondo HP, a Synthesist can get:

- Pounce (if you go quad for your base form).

- A quite ridiculous number of attacks by level 10, +8/+3 weapon attack and five +3 natural attacks.

- More versatility than the Barbarian on various assorted tasks, since not only you have spells, but also Evolution Surge to give your Eidolon more Evolutions on the spot.

However, there are cons, such as:

- If your Eidolon gets sent away for whatever reason (and there are quite a number of reasons that could get this done) you (and your party) are pretty much screwed.
But there are ways to diminish the impact of this

- It is mentioned somewhere in the Summoner description that the Eidolon is a living being and all that, so if the DM wants to screw you all he has to do is make the Eidolon stop doing whatever it is that you tell him to; he can do this pretty easy if it dies too often or gets damaged but not patched for too long.

- If your DM disallows your armor to affect the Eidolon then chances are your armor magical enhancements won't either and raw AC can only get you so far.

- The DM or party can view you as too optmized and disallow the character altogether or make things hard for you; so check out the rest of the party to not make a huge imbalance.


The combat feat thing I don't really count, Summoners have very few ways to use metamagic feats, so chances are you'd end up getting archery feats or something, exchanging them for combat ones is not so bad.

Anyway, 3 of these cons are quite subjective, but the one that isn't is a big one. As mentioned, a poor Will save against a sleep spell and bam! There goes the tanker and you're now just a puny magical person who has all the baddies' threat...sucks to be you!

EDIT: Oh yeah, forgot that feat and remembered another con.

[Larpus]

-You can easily have a ridiculous number of hitpoints. Remember that you have your hit dice PLUS your eidolon's hit dice, both based on the same CON score, meaning you can get double duty out of CON bonuses (ex., at level nine a +2 Belt of Con will give you sixteen HP, and 35 at level 20).
I don't believe it would work like that, since you're not wearing the belt twice nor wearing two belts, otherwise the effect of pretty much all the magical gear a Synthesist uses would be doubled too, which makes no sense.

[CTrees]

I don't believe it would work like that, since you're not wearing the belt twice nor wearing two belts, otherwise the effect of pretty much all the magical gear a Synthesist uses would be doubled too, which makes no sense.

See, the description says you can use your gear, but doesn't say the eidolon can't use its gear. Obviously it can't, as if you have it weilding a greatsword, it has to be part of the eidolon's equipment, rather than yours. You share slots like normal, but nothing says you can't choose whether an item is on you (on the inside of the eidolon) or on the eidolon (on the outside). You put the belt of +X Con on after you summon the eidolon, having it wear it.

Same thing for Barsto - for physical stat increasing items, have the eidolon use them. Suddenly you have ITS Con increased. It's HP (which you get as temp HP) are increased based on the new Con score, and you use that same Con as yours to determine your HP... which is how you pull double duty out of the items.

Example: I have a headband of +2Cha, a belt of +2Con, a ring of regeneration, and a +1 Flaming Greatsword. The summoner shares slots between the eidolon and himself, but the base entry draws a distinction between eidolon equipment and summoner equipment. The synthesist entry merely states the summoner can still use his own equipment, and not that the eidolon can't use its gear. Thus, with those items, you take the headband as part of your gear (because the eidolon's mental stats are overriden), have the belt and greatsword as part of the eidolon's, and put the ring whereever.

It actually HAS to work this way. If it didn't, it would be impossible to use either mental or physical stat ability increasing items, depending on interpretation. If ONLY the synthesist could "use" items, then, having his physical stats overridden would mean things like a Belt of Physical Might would have no effect. Conversely, if all equipment was on the outside, on the eidolon, a Headband of Mental Superiority would have no effect, as it would be boosting the eidolon's mental stats, which are ignored. Further, if you want to use a weapon, and it has to be your equipment? Well, your physical form encased in the eidolon, which would seem to prevent your weapon from being used... so if the eidolon can't equip/gain benefit from items, it suddenly can't use any manufactured weaponry. Thus, the distinction which was left in between eidolon and summoner equipment essentially HAS to still be valid.

[Larpus]

That's crazy science you're talking there man, I mean, it actually makes sense, but I don't think any DM would let that slip, unless the rest of the party were nothing but optmized Druids, Clerics and Wizards.

Btw, one thing that just got to me: unless you're playing high level and closing to 20, in which case you can separate from the Eidolon and become a copy of it at 20, it might actually be worthy to get a single level of Barbarian or Fighter, so you get the Martial Proficiency and either an extra feat or Rage at the expense of 1 or 2 Evo points, maybe a score/natural armor increase and a spellcasting level (which won't matter all that much for a Synthesist I believe).

Again, it's not OMFGAWESOMEBBQ, but seems at least worth a thought.

[CTrees]

That's crazy science you're talking there man, I mean, it actually makes sense, but I don't think any DM would that slip, unless the rest of the party were nothing but Druids, Clerics and Wizards.

Btw, one thing that just got to me: unless you're playing high level and closing to 20, in which case you can separate from the Eidolon and become a copy of it at 20, it might actually be worthy to get a single level of Barbarian or Fighter, so you get the Martial Proficiency and either an extra feat or Rage at the expense of 1 or 2 Evo points, maybe a score/natural armor increase and a spellcasting level (which won't matter all that much for a Synthesist I believe).

Again, it's not OMFGAWESOMEBBQ, but seems at least worth a thought.


Well, basically Ultimate Magic was really, really poorly proofed. Look at the Antagonize feat - the DC is low enough that even with zero ranks in Intimidate, it's still pretty possible to make casters stupidly lose actions. Then look at the Conjuration spells with instantaneous duration that allow SR. I think the synthesist has a lot of unintended consequences, essentially.

Also, I could see a two level dip of paladin being pretty sweet. +Cha to saves and smite coming of that chassis, along with the proficiencies? If the careful armor stacking is allowed, just ignore casting except for long duration buffs and the like, stick on heavily enchanted full plate... yeah.

[VladtheLad]

The rules for synthetist are kina unclear, but generally he can easily reach a very high ac (even without gaining an armor bonus from his armor), great saves and lots of hp.

So yeah, he can tank.

[Larpus]

Btw, I got it, it's actually possible to argument the contrary on ability enhancing items, though I'll fully agree that Paizo was way less than specific on that and that it really can go either way.

Basically ou have to consider the hierarchy to be as such:

Summoner -> Eidolon -> Bonuses -> Merged Form

So as a result, we have that the Summoner receives the physical stats from the Eidolon and then the merged form receives any bonuses associated, regardless of who's holding what, so even if you have the Eidolon use the mental items and the Summoner the physical ones, you'd still get the same bonuses since they're a "coating" that goes over the character as opposed to stick fiercely to the ability it enhances.

Something that supports this line of thought is that a spellcaster does not get extra daily slots from outside ability bonuses, but the spells DC does increase, which hints to the ability increase being a magical aura that only affects the spells as they leave the spellcaster's body, rather than before he casts them.

Similarly, a character does not explode on a pile of muscles when he puts an item that gives him +20 Str, however he can still affect the world as if he had +20 points worth of Str than he originally had.

[Akal Saris]

I'm building a synthesist today (multiclass summoner/rogue), and there are definitely some things I wish I understood better.

1. Do your HPs change when you're in eidolon mode? For example, I normally have 14 con, in eidolon mode my Con goes to 13. Do I lose 1 HP per level?
2. You use the eidolon's BAB in place of your own. OK, that's awesome for a standard summoner, but what if I'm a summoner 2/rogue 3? Without the eidolon I have a BAB of +3, and with the eidolon, is it BAB +4 (+2 summoner/+2 rogue), or is it just +2 (only the eidolon side counts). By a straight reading its just the eidolon without any from your other classes, which is horrible...
3. As mentioned, armor is in an ugly gray zone of either being really easy to jack up without house-ruling that you can't wear it.

[Larpus]

I'm building a synthesist today (multiclass summoner/rogue), and there are definitely some things I wish I understood better.

1. Do your HPs change when you're in eidolon mode? For example, I normally have 14 con, in eidolon mode my Con goes to 13. Do I lose 1 HP per level?
2. You use the eidolon's BAB in place of your own. OK, that's awesome for a standard summoner, but what if I'm a summoner 2/rogue 3? Without the eidolon I have a BAB of +3, and with the eidolon, is it BAB +4 (+2 summoner/+2 rogue), or is it just +2 (only the eidolon side counts). By a straight reading its just the eidolon without any from your other classes, which is horrible...
3. As mentioned, armor is in an ugly gray zone of either being really easy to jack up without house-ruling that you can't wear it.
1. Rules don't specify, ask your DM, but I'd say yes since it says "you gain the Eidolon's Con score" for better or worse.

2. As written, it's just the Eidolon's, the thing is already powerful enough without multiclassing into the question, so if you want other class features, be prepared to pay something for them. Still, if you plan on get more levels of something else as opposed to Summoner, ask your DM for an either/or rule instead.

3. It seems that the most likely intention of it is that you cannot use it, since it wouldn't make much sense (though I guess that armor magical enhancements not dependent on the physical armor itself would still apply, see my previous post for my reasoning). Still, it really can go either way and only your DM can say what happens.

EDIT: IMHO, in the armor case it also does mean that a fusioned Summoner can freely cast his spells without spell failure even if his base body is wearing a fullplate since on the fused form it "doesn't exist".

[Barstro]

EDIT: IMHO, in the armor case it also does mean that a fusioned Summoner can freely cast his spells without spell failure even if his base body is wearing a fullplate since on the fused form it "doesn't exist".

Now you're being silly. The armor exists, it just doesn't help the merged form because the armor is inside the body of the Eidolon (like swallowing a chainmail shirt). The armor still exists around the Summoner, so he still gets failures.

To put it another way; A Summoner is inside a building gazebo. Building gazebo has 50 HPs. For the first 50 HPs worth of catapulting, the Summoner is safe because the stones need to get through the roof to do anything. As such, his fullplate is meaningless as armor because the roof is soaking up the damage (50 temporary HPs worth). But he still gets spell failure because he's wearing the armor.

[panaikhan]

Wow. lots of answers. Thanks guys :)

I was looking at a Synthesist, because I didn't just want a "Me stand in way of Roc" kinda Tank. I wanted something with a bit more flair, a bit more versatility - hense my original aim for Rage Prophet.

I have always loved the flavour for Summoners, but I always saw the Summoner as a 'weak link' - you knock him out, and the badass Thing breathing down your neck suddenly disappears. Now you have to beat the Thing, before you can deal with the summoner, and once you do you find yourself knee-deep in celestial badgers (or whichever).

The Eidolon works much better than Rage... AC bonus (instead of penalty), bonus HP, bonus to physical stats (would be kinda silly to design a character worse off for summoning), a plethora of possible attacks and abilities, effectively no time limit, no limitation on spells, abilities or skills.

[IthroZada]

Looking at this thread, I rather want to make a Crusader//Summoner now. Possibly a gnome for the sheer absurdity of him walking around in a huge sized Eidolon.

[Larpus]

Now you're being silly. The armor exists, it just doesn't help the merged form because the armor is inside the body of the Eidolon (like swallowing a chainmail shirt). The armor still exists around the Summoner, so he still gets failures.

To put it another way; A Summoner is inside a building gazebo. Building gazebo has 50 HPs. For the first 50 HPs worth of catapulting, the Summoner is safe because the stones need to get through the roof to do anything. As such, his fullplate is meaningless as armor because the roof is soaking up the damage (50 temporary HPs worth). But he still gets spell failure because he's wearing the armor.
You are right, I re-read the Synthesist description and it is slightly different from another type of Summoner using the lvl16 feature Merge Forms:

The merge ability merges the summoner into the Eidolon, his gear becomes inaccessible and he casts using the Eidolon's body, in this case the caster wearing a fullplate would mean nothing since it wouldn't have any effect on the Eidolon's ability to use the somatic components.

However the Synthesist specifically says that the Summoner is just surrounded by a translucent form of the Eidolon, fluff-wise it can be made into a solid-looking creature or something, but remains the fact that all his gear is completely accessible (unlike the other guy) and that he still casts with his own body; now the text doesn't specify, but I believe it is implicit that the spell is delivered through the Eidolon body since both creatures still count as one and the same.

[Barstro]

... but I believe it is implicit that the spell is delivered through the Eidolon body since both creatures still count as one and the same.

Ok, I'll buy that, especially since the Synthesist cannot actually cast while inside the Eidolon as a separate action; Eidolon has to stand still while the Synthesist casts (or else do the casting itself). Sythnesist can wear fullplate, use his ability to summon the Eidolon, cast normally as long as the Eidolon is out, and be a fully-protected non-casting spaz once the Eidolon is "killed".

Does armor affect the use of wands? If not, this could actually work.

[IthroZada]

Does armor affect the use of wands? If not, this could actually work.

Armor does not affect wands, because they don't require any gestures as a spell trigger item.

[CTrees]

Looking at this thread, I rather want to make a Crusader//Summoner now. Possibly a gnome for the sheer absurdity of him walking around in a huge sized Eidolon.

Synthesist seems like it could be insane in the right gestalt. I don't play gestalt, so I haven't given it much thought, but... it just feels like it should be. *shrug*

The ways I've wanted to play one (haven't gotten the chance to, yet) have either been dips (naga style, with reach and mostly going rogue could be entertaining, as could a pouncing savage barbarian with a ton to natural attacks, just for example) or pretending to be something else. One of my current backup characters (in case of sudden, explosive death) is a synthesist pretending to be a planetar. It's really, really easy to make a convincing version - the fun is tricking the rest of the party into believing it. I think it'd be a hell of a fun roleplaying challenge. Also, in my group, my turn to DM is coming up next, and I've got an NPC synthesist that's pretending to be a dragon planned.

[Slipperychicken]

you knock him out, and the badass Thing breathing down your neck suddenly disappears.

Unless that Summoner took... [drumroll please] Resilient Eidolon! (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/resilient-eidolon)

That TPK giving you a bad day? Well now your Eidolon can stay out to play! Give your monster and party the [summoner level] rounds they need to wipe out the opposition, and get you back in the game!



Warning: requires the Eidolon class feature. Synthesist Summoners should contact their DMs, to see if their fused eidolon ability makes the prerequisite.

[IthroZada]

Synthesist seems like it could be insane in the right gestalt. I don't play gestalt, so I haven't given it much thought, but... it just feels like it should be. *shrug*



What I feel would combine with Synthesist in the most absurd of ways, would be a Totemist. Some of the evolutions even give extra limbs and heads. The result would be a bit like a gibbering mouther I expect.

[CTrees]

Okay, I'll be honest... Mostly I've looked at the Synthesist for a single-classed build, or at most with a one or two level dip into something like paladin. So... I remember seeing the "use the eidolon's BAB" clause, but I never really thought about it.

As worded, a Synthesist4/Rogue16 would appear to have a BAB of +3 when fused, which... is really, really terrible. I'm not even sure that's an oversight or unintended consequence, as Pathfinder strongly incentivizes staying with one class. Thus, from now on it looks like I'm only going to forward the idea of splashing synthesist in cases where one's DM will ignore/fix that. Using the eidolon's BAB in place of the synthesist's contribution would seem fair, and could be argued as RAI, but... yeesh. I just did not realize how terrible that made splashing synthesist, RAW.

[Starbuck_II]

I'm building a synthesist today (multiclass summoner/rogue), and there are definitely some things I wish I understood better.

1. Do your HPs change when you're in eidolon mode? For example, I normally have 14 con, in eidolon mode my Con goes to 13. Do I lose 1 HP per level?

Yes, you use eidolon's Con not your own while merged.



2. You use the eidolon's BAB in place of your own. OK, that's awesome for a standard summoner, but what if I'm a summoner 2/rogue 3? Without the eidolon I have a BAB of +3, and with the eidolon, is it BAB +4 (+2 summoner/+2 rogue), or is it just +2 (only the eidolon side counts). By a straight reading its just the eidolon without any from your other classes, which is horrible...

I read it as Monk Flurrying. The designers clarified that use Monk level as BAB meant still add other classes.
So by same spirit: add other classes to Eidolon BAB.


3. As mentioned, armor is in an ugly gray zone of either being really easy to jack up without house-ruling that you can't wear it.
Rules allow it basically, but it seems cheesy to some DMs.

[CTrees]

I read it as Monk Flurrying. The designers clarified that use Monk level as BAB meant still add other classes.
So by same spirit: add other classes to Eidolon BAB.


That would be much, much better... though technically not RAW.

[panaikhan]

OK, first session for this character completed on Sunday. Went quite well.
Halfling start point (mainly for the lulz). Medium Quadruped base form, claw/claw/bite routine (all primary).
Had the discussion with the DM - he classes the armour as 'inside' the Eidolon (so no bonus). Considering I'll get AC boosts as the Eidolon levels up, i'm not so fussed.

Looking at levelling up - is it better to go for lots of attacks, or lots of free combat tricks? (i.e. free trip, free grab, etc..)

[Larpus]

Depends on the rest of the party.

If the party already deals enough damage, going many attacks will only get them sore for you stealing the spotlight. So the combat maneuvers can be preferable since it will add some needed control and if there are other meleers around they can benefit from the AoO.

If however the party seems to have trouble causing damage, then going for a ridiculous amount of attacks (barring your limit) will most probably be better.

If neither case is what happens, then mix and match both and call it a day.

[panaikhan]

The party currently consists of:

Halfling Synthesist (me)
Gnome Alchemist
Half-Elf Ranger
Human Sorcerer
Human Thief
Elven Cleric

The Synthesist and the Ranger are the 'front line'
The Alchemist and Sorcerer are the 'artilliary'

I quite like the idea of the Free Trip ("hit them as they stand up, and trip them again combo")
I also like the look of the Rend and Rake abilities (standard clawed quadruped stuff)
Ideally, for the Tank role, I want to keep the bad guys tied up and interested in me, while the others nibble them to death.

[IthroZada]

Do you plan on going the large, then huge route of evolutions? It makes for a significant boost in health and strength, but being constantly huge does have its own drawbacks besides the cost in evolution points.

[Barstro]

Question on Con and Synthesist: Of great concern to the tanks

Synthesist has 10 Con. 8 HP
When Synthesized, has Eidolon's 13 Con and 6 HP as temp.
(EDIT: Synthesist now has 9 HP due to Con's +1?)

Synthesist gets hit for a total of 12(13?) HPs. He uses Fused Link to keep the Eidolon at 1 and himself at 1. If he takes one more HP of damage, Eidolon is at Zero. Synthesist cannot Fuse another point, so Eidolon goes away. Synthesist's Con goes back to 10, his max and current HPs drop by One, and he is now at Zero.

At higher levels, losing the Eidolon's Con bonus this way could actually kill the Synthesist, correct?

[Larpus]

Honestly, I'd stop at Large so you have more versatility through Enlarge/Reduce Person: you can go Medium to fit somewhere rather small and Huge if you need to punch a Tarrasque.

As for which route, the only question I have is regarding the Alchemist, is he a Bomberman build (damage) or a Somkebomber build (control)?

Still, from the looks of it I'd go attack route but fill in couple free maneuvers when possible, at least squeeze in Trip which is quite good by itself and will make everyone love you by disabling enemies and giving the Ranger and Rogue AoOs.


EDIT:

Question on Con and Synthesist: Of great concern to the tanks

Synthesist has 10 Con. 8 HP
When Synthesized, has Eidolon's 13 Con and 6 HP as temp.

Synthesist gets hit for a total of 12 HPs. He uses Fused Link to keep the Eidolon at 1 and himself at 1. If he takes one more HP of damage, Eidolon is at Zero. Synthesist cannot Fuse another point, so Eidolon goes away. Synthesist's Con goes back to 10, his max and current HPs drop by One, and he is now at Zero.

At higher levels, losing the Eidolon's Con bonus this way could actually kill the Synthesist, correct?
What?

No, his HP wouldn't drop one point since extra HPs from the Eidolon's Con is already considered in the temp HP, so he's now just a weak Sorcerer-lite standing in frontline with 1 HP and will be dead if anything as much as glares at him.

Which is why I'd always carry a Rod of Quicken in my hand when fused, so worst comes to worse I can quicken an Invisibility or so and get the hell out of the scene.

[Bovine Colonel]

The party currently consists of:

Halfling Synthesist (me)
Gnome Alchemist
Half-Elf Ranger
Human Sorcerer
Human Thief
Elven Cleric

The Synthesist and the Ranger are the 'front line'
The Alchemist and Sorcerer are the 'artilliary'

I quite like the idea of the Free Trip ("hit them as they stand up, and trip them again combo")
I also like the look of the Rend and Rake abilities (standard clawed quadruped stuff)
Ideally, for the Tank role, I want to keep the bad guys tied up and interested in me, while the others nibble them to death.

The best way to tank in 3.5/Pathfinder (Crusader notwithstanding) is to be a threat. Which is to say, to do lots and lots of damage or lock the other guy down.

[panaikhan]

I was planning to stop at Large for the Eidolon. Would 'enlarge person' still work?

The Alchemist build looks damage-oriented at the moment, but that could change (depending if the Sorcerer can hold his own in that department)

I can kinda see Barstro's argument with the HP - if the Synthesist sacrifices more HP than he normally has to keep the Eidolon up, then he could be in trouble when the Eidolon goes poof.

[Barstro]

No, his HP wouldn't drop one point since extra HPs from the Eidolon's Con is already considered in the temp HP, so he's now just a weak Sorcerer-lite standing in frontline with 1 HP and will be dead if anything as much as glares at him.

I think I missed a step in my scenario.

Synthesist has 8 HPs at 10 Con.
When merged, does he now have 9 HPs due to the 13 Con?
If he does not get the extra HPs then my concern is moot.

[Barstro]

I was planning to stop at Large for the Eidolon. Would 'enlarge person' still work?

I believe that it works only if the Synthesist casts it. If any other type of caster does it, it fails because the Eidolon is not a person. I believe that it also fails if any other Summoner casts it because it isn't that Summoner's Eidolon. :smallfrown:

[IthroZada]

I believe that it works only if the Synthesist casts it. If any other type of caster does it, it fails because the Eidolon is not a person. I believe that it also fails if any other Summoner casts it because it isn't that Summoner's Eidolon. :smallfrown:

It's simple, you don't cast enlarge person on the Eidolon, you cast it on the Summoner, and it will in turn enlarge the Eidolon, due to spells that affect one, affecting the other.

[Starbuck_II]

I think I missed a step in my scenario.

Synthesist has 8 HPs at 10 Con.
When merged, does he now have 9 HPs due to the 13 Con?
If he does not get the extra HPs then my concern is moot.

Yes, you use Eidolon's con so hps increase/decrease to 9 while fused (if you had higher Con you'll have less hps til unfused).

[Larpus]

Yes, you use Eidolon's con so hps increase/decrease to 9 while fused (if you had higher Con you'll have less hps til unfused).
I don't think it would work like that, otherwise we're back at the problem of getting bonuses twice.

The rules don't really specify or mention this at all, however I believe that the RAI is that the Con affects everything but the Summoner's base HP, so his HP doesn't change regardless of the Eidolon's Con, however his resistance to Con damage and Fort saves do to account for the Eidolon's score.


As for the tanking part, yeah, being a threat is vital and the easiest way to do so is through damage, you don't have to be the damage king, just enough to be a true threat and guarantee that any enemy has to deal with you before he can pay attention to the rest of the party.

That said, having access to a debilitating combat maneuver (such as Trip or Graple) to deal with pesky runners is always good, especially considering the Eidolon's ridiculous scores and how easy it is to have reach.

And Enlarge/Reduce function on a Large Eidolon as normal, as the spells move the 'person' up/down one size category, not "makes it grow to large size", otherwise it would be the insta-win button to make a Fairy Frenzied Berserker or something.

[Starbuck_II]

I don't think it would work like that, otherwise we're back at the problem of getting bonuses twice.

The rules don't really specify or mention this at all, however I believe that the RAI is that the Con affects everything but the Summoner's base HP, so his HP doesn't change regardless of the Eidolon's Con, however his resistance to Con damage and Fort saves do to account for the Eidolon's score.

But we aren't playing 3.5 errated Wildshape, so you do get Con bonuses twice by putting on a Belt of Con while fused (both your hps and Temp hps increase).


That said, having access to a debilitating combat maneuver (such as Trip or Graple) to deal with pesky runners is always good, especially considering the Eidolon's ridiculous scores and how easy it is to have reach.

Grapple doesn't do anything in Pathfinder but impose a penalty to hit/move, they can still full attack you (-2 penalty) if they have one handed weapon (or light).

[CTrees]

Barbarians gain temporary HP from temp Con increases due to rage, based on his HD. A Synthesist with, say, 10 Con will gain a temp Con increase while fused. Seems logical that a Synthesist would gain temp HP based on his HD, also... It just happens that he gets another pot of temp HP (from the Eidolon) afterwards.

I've seen nothing in the rules that would indicate the bonus HP from high Con don't apply to both the Synthesist's HD and the Eidolon's HD. Yes, this just adds to the RIDICULOUS HP a Synthesist can have while fused, but there's a loss of action economy to correlate, compared to the base Summoner.

[Barstro]

(Enlarge Person) It's simple, you don't cast enlarge person on the Eidolon, you cast it on the Summoner, and it will in turn enlarge the Eidolon, due to spells that affect one, affecting the other.

Except that "While fused, the synthesist counts as both his original type and as an outsider for any effect related to type, whichever is worse for the synthesist."

By strict reading, it would be worse to be an outsider (good spell wouldn't work), so that is how he is treated, and the beneficial spell has no effect. Strangely, if being enlarged was considered to be a detriment, then he would be a person, and then it would have an (ill) effect.

OR

Enlarge person only works on the Synthesist. If he is enlarged beyond the size of the Eidolon, then the Eidolon disappears. "The eidolon must be at least the same size as the synthesist." This is a great "attack" that evil DMs can make. Enlarge person on the Synthesis, Eidolon goes away, naked Synthesist gets crushed in melee.

[Barstro]

Seems logical that a Synthesist would gain temp HP based on his HD, also... It just happens that he gets another pot of temp HP (from the Eidolon) afterwards.

There are two "logical" ways to look at it. 1) Synthesist gets to "use" the Eidolon's Con, so he gets the HP bonus. or 2) The Eidolon is simply a coat that the Synthesist wears, and the Synthesist only gets the Con bonus for saving throws, not for HP. (A double bonus is not inherently logical. In fact, a double bonus strikes me as inherently illogical).

[Starbuck_II]

There are two "logical" ways to look at it. 1) Synthesist gets to "use" the Eidolon's Con, so he gets the HP bonus. or 2) The Eidolon is simply a coat that the Synthesist wears, and the Synthesist only gets the Con bonus for saving throws, not for HP. (A double bonus is not inherently logical. In fact, a double bonus strikes me as inherently illogical).

No, it is logical.

Remember, Temp hps are lost first.
The bonus from Con will be an additional hps (like Rage).

So you have 8 hps 10 con (while you didn't get 12 at least I'll never know) and Eidolon has D10 (13).
So you have 8 hps or fusing means 9 hps and 11 Temp.

When unfused you'll have 8 at max, so you'll be left bleeding if you have 1 left when unfused (*life link ability to maintain it till it was utterly defeated).

[Barstro]

No, it is logical.

Remember, Temp hps are lost first.
The bonus from Con will be an additional hps (like Rage).

I'm not saying that it cannot work that way. I agree that can; I'm stating that a double bonus was probably not intended. Otherwise, at level 5, with a con of 14, the Eidolon's Con gives 10 extra HPs to the Synthesist. If the Eidolon goes away when the Sythesist is at 1 HP, then the Synthesist is suddenly reduced to -9 HP and dies.

I expect that one of the dozens of errata for Synthesist will be "Fused Link (Su): Starting at 1st level, the synthesist forms a close bond with his eidolon. Whenever the temporary hit points from his eidolon would be reduced to 0, the summoner can, as a free action, sacrifice any number of his own hit points. The synthesist retains his own Con bonus to determine his hit points."

[Drothmal]

Yeah, the synthesist will need it's own short publication of erratas

I saw it discussed above, but it is still not clear to me that the BAB of the eidolon should stack with other classes... If you think of the the Eidolon being like an animal companion, the BAB does not progress if you take levels in classes that do no have animal companion class feature. What can be done, though is to make feats that give your eidolon +4 level (up to your HD), like they do with animal companion. I think this would still make the synthesist very good for a dip, but a bit more fair (just to clarify, this feat would not give you evolutions, just the BAB, HD and saves)

[Larpus]

Yeah, the synthesist will need it's own short publication of erratas

I saw it discussed above, but it is still not clear to me that the BAB of the eidolon should stack with other classes... If you think of the the Eidolon being like an animal companion, the BAB does not progress if you take levels in classes that do no have animal companion class feature. What can be done, though is to make feats that give your eidolon +4 level (up to your HD), like they do with animal companion. I think this would still make the synthesist very good for a dip, but a bit more fair (just to clarify, this feat would not give you evolutions, just the BAB, HD and saves)
Personally, I'd rule it so it doesn't stack, otherwise we can get real ridiculous with an Eidolon with multiple arms, reach, improved claw damage, energy damage and a decent amount of Sneak Attack extra dies (hell, 1 or 2 extra d6s are deadly enough when they apply to 5 reach attacks)...that is just a bit too much.

Now, I'm not the sort of person to say that melee can't have nice things, all the power to melee, hell, I like melee; my problem is that a Synthesist can get this ridiculous while a Fighter or Barbarian can only wish to be on the same level.

[IthroZada]

Now, I'm not the sort of person to say that melee can't have nice things, all the power to melee, hell, I like melee; my problem is that a Synthesist can get this ridiculous while a Fighter or Barbarian can only wish to be on the same level.

That sounds more like a design flaw of the Fighter and Barbarian than the Summoner's.

Edit: And I should mention that the same issue was run into in 3.5 with Tome of Battle and Totemists.

[Akal Saris]

Personally, I think that BAB should stack with other classes, as otherwise you cut off a good deal of potential for interesting builds by using an ability that's intended to improve the summoner (go from 3/4 BAB to full) and making it instead a penalty for multi-classing (Hah, you are trapped at +1 BAB forever!)

Yes, summoner makes a great 1-2 level dip for a rogue or a barbarian, but then again so does fighter.

[Larpus]

That sounds more like a design flaw of the Fighter and Barbarian than the Summoner's.

Edit: And I should mention that the same issue was run into in 3.5 with Tome of Battle and Totemists.
Indeed it is.

However, I still need to see a lvl10-ish Synthesist in action with his 5 natural attacks + 2 weapon attacks and all that jazz, 'cus if they end up too powerful, compared to enemies, no Fighters/Barbs, then yeah, we have a balance issue, which seems very likely if BABs are allowed to stack.

Also on a side note, I think that Vivisectionist Alchemist is a more interesting choice than Rogue, same Sneak Attack progression, but extra more useful toys, such as Brew Potion and Mutagen, both for free at level one, with more levels in Alchemist the second spellcasting class picks up and starts to get interesting too, not to mention that the Alchie has Fort and Ref as his good saves; all of that at the expense of trapfinding and 4 skills points.

Anyway, as I said, things can get real ridiculous with that, so if I were DMing, until Paizo says something official to prove me wrong, I wouldn't allow this, at least not until the melee people can at least compete.

EDIT: Oh yeah, another argument against stacking BABs, other Summoner types have their Eidolons' BAB gimped by multiclassing and I'm not entirely sure the action economy is enough for being able to do that.

[panaikhan]

Reading into the whole 'enlarge/reduce' thing.

Summoners in general, can have spells with the target 'self' effect their Eidolons.
When summoned, the Eidolon and the Synthesist are the same being.

So is this to say, that a standard summoner can enlarge himself and/or his Eidolon, but a Synthesist can't? Or does the enlarge spell simply fail because the Eidolon / Synthesist is an outsider?

[Larpus]

Reading into the whole 'enlarge/reduce' thing.

Summoners in general, can have spells with the target 'self' effect their Eidolons.
When summoned, the Eidolon and the Synthesist are the same being.

So is this to say, that a standard summoner can enlarge himself and/or his Eidolon, but a Synthesist can't? Or does the enlarge spell simply fail because the Eidolon / Synthesist is an outsider?
Yes he can, just like a regular Summoner.

Share Spells (Ex)

The summoner may cast a spell with a target of “you” on his eidolon (as a spell with a range of touch) instead of on himself. A summoner may cast spells on his eidolon even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the eidolon’s type (outsider). Spells cast in this way must come from the summoner spell list.

This ability does not allow the eidolon to share abilities that are not spells, even if they function like spells.
Aka. 'person' spells.

The only difference I think is that since the Summoner and the Eidolon are one and the same and can't be targeted individually, a single Enlarge/Reduce would increase/decrease both the Eidolon and the Summoner in a single cast, for better or worse.

[Barstro]

Reading into the whole 'enlarge/reduce' thing.

Summoners in general, can have spells with the target 'self' effect their Eidolons.
When summoned, the Eidolon and the Synthesist are the same being.

So is this to say, that a standard summoner can enlarge himself and/or his Eidolon, but a Synthesist can't? Or does the enlarge spell simply fail because the Eidolon / Synthesist is an outsider?

The Synthesist can do it to himself, but ANOTHER caster cannot do it to the Synthesist, by my reading.

[IthroZada]

Is anyone else disappointed by the lack of any art whatsoever for the synthesist? Granted, it might get silly to make art for every archetype, but this is a pretty vastly different version of the summoner.

[Akal Saris]

Not really...I like my mental image of my character enough that having art might spoil that :smalltongue:

[Curious]

Personally, I prefer the lack of art. The idea of a translucent image floating around your feeble-looking summoner is just nowhere near as cool as literally transforming into a creature of awesome power summoned from the Outer planes.

[IthroZada]

To me, it seems one of the strongest benefits of a Synthesist Summoner (or any summoner really) 'tanking,' is their ability to create situational immunities using Evolution Surge. A Red Dragon is a degree less scary when you pop fire immunity on yourself, or possibly even spell resistance. And if the next fight happens to be a White dragon, cold immunity.

[panaikhan]

You guys rock! :smallbiggrin:

I quite like the lack of art too - but I'd already 'borrowed' a style and look for my Eidolon from another source, specifically, the shadow dog-creatures from the movie "FFVII: Advent Children".
Perfect for my quadruped Eidolon. Claws on every foot, vestigial wings (or extremely long shoulder-blades :smallconfused: ), a long prehensile tail (with some kind of bone blade/stinger on the end) and a ring of vestigial tentacles around the neck.

[Barstro]

To me, it seems one of the strongest benefits of a Synthesist Summoner (or any summoner really) 'tanking,' is their ability to create situational immunities using Evolution Surge. A Red Dragon is a degree less scary when you pop fire immunity on yourself, or possibly even spell resistance. And if the next fight happens to be a White dragon, cold immunity.

This is exactly why I don't think Synthesists should get the "double bonuses" that people are able to interpret from the rules. As soon as the Synthesist is able to cast Transmorgrify, they become the melee version of a Batman Wizard, but they only need one hour to make a full adaptation to the situation. And it won't be long before someone decides that there should be a higher level spell that allows for the change of the Eidolon's Feats or base form (other than by being an Evolutionist).* After that, they'll make some sort of feat that allows the Synthesist to cast spells while inside his Eidolon while still allowing his Eidolon to attack.

*Well, maybe the Synthesist won't be able to change Feats, since his Eidolon doesn't get any, but the other Summoners will probably be able to.

I'd just really like to see some errata to clarify if the Synthesist is;
1) fully merged with the Eidolon (how I want it to be) (WE ARE ONE)
2) wears the Eidolon like a coat (how I think it is designed to be) (Which I interpret to mean that only the Eidolon's BAB can be used when merged; no SuperRogues)
3) some hybrid that gets the best of both worlds (how the rules can be interpreted)

Since we have already hijacked this Thread:smalltongue:, I'd like to point out that I do not see in the rules that a small Synthesist in a huge Eidolon counts as huge. So, the Synthesist doesn't take the -2 size penalty to AC because AC is not an Ability Score. Hopefully I am just misreading that.

[CTrees]

I don't see where it says a small synthesist with a huge eidolon DOESN'T become huge. The only word on the synthesist about size is that the eidolon must be AT LEAST the same size as the sythesist (interestingly, a gigantic synthesist would be unable to call his eidolon). The wording on the large/huge evolutions is 'becomes large/huge.'

What are you seeing that would indicate the evolutions don't work?

[Prime32]

I don't see where it says a small synthesist with a huge eidolon DOESN'T become huge. The only word on the synthesist about size is that the eidolon must be AT LEAST the same size as the sythesist (interestingly, a gigantic synthesist would be unable to call his eidolon). The wording on the large/huge evolutions is 'becomes large/huge.'

What are you seeing that would indicate the evolutions don't work?

The main reason I support this is because if you gain the eidolon's abilities and they don't replace your own shape then summoning a biped eidolon will always give you four arms and four legs. That's... weird.

[IthroZada]

The main reason I support this is because if you gain the eidolon's abilities and they don't replace your own shape then summoning a biped eidolon will always give you four arms and four legs. That's... weird.

Well, having the ability to still use magic boots while in the Eidolon does seem to support having four arms and four legs. You don't get any more slots for magic items though.

[Barstro]

I don't see where it says a small synthesist with a huge eidolon DOESN'T become huge. The only word on the synthesist about size is that the eidolon must be AT LEAST the same size as the sythesist (interestingly, a gigantic synthesist would be unable to call his eidolon). The wording on the large/huge evolutions is 'becomes large/huge.'

What are you seeing that would indicate the evolutions don't work?

I need to remember to put down all of my starting facts before using my conclusions.

The synthesist gets the Eidolon's Con, Str, Dex, bonuses to Abilities, and uses the Eidolon as Temp. HPs. It does not say that it suffers the detriments of armor due to size. Nor do I see anywhere that the Synthesist is affected by the increase of size due to the evolution, just the Eidolon around him. (But see my earlier post about Enlarge Person being maliciously cast on the Synthesist).

By that reading, Synthesist gets the attack bonus due to Huge, but does not get the armor loss due to Huge.

To clarify my stance, I do not state that the evolutions do not work. I say that they work, and the rules read that the Synthesist doesn't suffer an armor penalty.

[Prime32]

Well, having the ability to still use magic boots while in the Eidolon does seem to support having four arms and four legs. You don't get any more slots for magic items though.Something like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KohEyH5N75k)?

[CTrees]

I need to remember to put down all of my starting facts before using my conclusions.

The synthesist gets the Eidolon's Con, Str, Dex, bonuses to Abilities, and uses the Eidolon as Temp. HPs. It does not say that it suffers the detriments of armor due to size. Nor do I see anywhere that the Synthesist is affected by the increase of size due to the evolution, just the Eidolon around him. (But see my earlier post about Enlarge Person being maliciously cast on the Synthesist).

By that reading, Synthesist gets the attack bonus due to Huge, but does not get the armor loss due to Huge.

To clarify my stance, I do not state that the evolutions do not work. I say that they work, and the rules read that the Synthesist doesn't suffer an armor penalty.

The penalties of being large huge are not an effect of the evolution - they're inherent to becoming that size. The evolution is simply reiterating them as a reminder (see: Enlarge Person). Those penalties would apply regardless of whether or not the ability stated them unless it specifically said they did not apply. If one were to argue that the penalties were part of the effect of the evolution, they would actually apply twice - once for the evolution, and once for the inherent penalties given due to being large/huge.

I see what you're saying, now. However, as nothing says the synthesist does not take the AC/etc. penalties for being large/huge, and the penalties are a result of being that size, I see no reason why they wouldn't still apply.

And really, does the synthesist need even more bonuses?

[Larpus]

I need to remember to put down all of my starting facts before using my conclusions.

The synthesist gets the Eidolon's Con, Str, Dex, bonuses to Abilities, and uses the Eidolon as Temp. HPs. It does not say that it suffers the detriments of armor due to size. Nor do I see anywhere that the Synthesist is affected by the increase of size due to the evolution, just the Eidolon around him. (But see my earlier post about Enlarge Person being maliciously cast on the Synthesist).

By that reading, Synthesist gets the attack bonus due to Huge, but does not get the armor loss due to Huge.

To clarify my stance, I do not state that the evolutions do not work. I say that they work, and the rules read that the Synthesist doesn't suffer an armor penalty.
I think that they do due to this line here:

While fused with his eidolon, the synthesist uses the eidolon’s physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution), but retains his own mental ability scores (Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma). The synthesist gains the eidolon’s hit points as temporary hit points. When these hit points reach 0, the eidolon is sent back to its home plane. The synthesist uses the eidolon’s base attack bonus, and gains the eidolon’s armor and natural armor bonuses and modifiers to ability scores. The synthesist also gains access to the eidolon’s special abilities and the eidolon’s evolutions. The synthesist is still limited to the eidolon’s maximum number of natural attacks. The eidolon has no skills or feats of its own. The eidolon must be at least the same size as the synthesist.
I take it to meaning that the -2 is already factored in the AC bonus before being applied to the Synthesist.

[IthroZada]

Something like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KohEyH5N75k)?

To be honest, I've been describing the synthesist summoner to everyone I know as basically piloting a Mech. Made out of Outsider.

[Larpus]

Personally I always envisioned it as the aliens from ID4, anyone remember that movie?

Of course, since the Eidolon's look is up to the summoner, I guess it's valid for it to look like a construct.

[MeeposFire]

I think power rangers. To summon I call out "I need dinozord power now!" and then call upon the power of the mastodon.

[panaikhan]

Been having fun with this character.
Our GM has ruled in my favour twice now, after ruling against me (and for common sense) about wearing armour under the Eidolon.

To whit:
I can still use all of my gear without penalty. This means I can use my longspear or sling without having to banish the Eidolon first.
(This does mean I theoretically 'can' get an additional attack, but the penalties are way too high at the moment).

Also, if I sacrifice HP to keep the Eidolon 'up', to the extent that I would end up on negative HP once it was dispelled, it leaves me on exactly 0 should it actually occur.

[Barstro]

Been having fun with this character.
Our GM has ruled in my favour twice now, after ruling against me (and for common sense) about wearing armour under the Eidolon.

To whit:
I can still use all of my gear without penalty. This means I can use my longspear or sling without having to banish the Eidolon first.
(This does mean I theoretically 'can' get an additional attack, but the penalties are way too high at the moment).

Wow, that seems to be ruling against the actual description. As written, you don't actually do anything, you control the Eidolon. However, you are magically able to access all of your equipment (use wands, potions)

[Barstro]

I think that they do due to this line here:



Originally Posted by Pathfinder SRD
The synthesist uses the eidolon’s base attack bonus, and gains the eidolon’s armor and natural armor bonuses and modifiers to ability scores. The synthesist also gains access to the eidolon’s special abilities and the eidolon’s evolutions. The synthesist is still limited to the eidolon’s maximum number of natural attacks. The eidolon has no skills or feats of its own. The eidolon must be at least the same size as the synthesist.

I take it to meaning that the -2 is already factored in the AC bonus before being applied to the Synthesist.

Hmm. I agree. I have read that several times and only took "armor" to mean items worn (ring, or whatever). Reading it as "AC with all associated calculations" makes much more sense.


And really, does the synthesist need even more bonuses?

Probably needs fewer bonuses, or better ways for others to negate their powers. I still cannot decide if the Synthesist is weaker than a Summoner due to loss of an action per round and fewer Feats.

[Larpus]

Probably needs fewer bonuses, or better ways for others to negate their powers. I still cannot decide if the Synthesist is weaker than a Summoner due to loss of an action per round and fewer Feats.
Personally, I think that a normal Summoner has the upper hand due to having more options available for him (not only the action economy); still, I don't think it's a huge difference and there are some other factors that can greatly shift the favor to one or the other.

To expand a little, a normal Summoner, as mentioned, has more skill points and feats available to him, but not only that, since he is a separate entity to his Eidolon, it's essentially a character with 2 simultaneous builds.

For example, a Summoner is not that weak of a class, so he can spec himself to be a decent CMB user, adding a flank buddy to his Eidolon and providing everyone with battle support and extra AoOs or just more opportunities for the maneuvers to work.

Or he can spec himself for ranged combat and add a decent amount of DPS to the party (works better with an Elf with a longbow). Or even leave combat to his Eidolon and focus on item creation feats, by either using that feat that allows a non-caster to craft or by asking other casters for help on some items (such as having a Cleric cast a CLW on a wand he made).

Skills go in a similar fashion, though they're a much lesser advantage, still a Summoner can have his Eidolon grab situational skills such as Climb without hurting his own selection.

Speaking more of options, there''re also tactical options since the Summoner "has 2 bodies", so he can send his Eidolon to scout and spy an area while he himself uses his high Cha to humor and distract whoever it is they're spying. This is just a simple tactic, but I'm sure someone creative can think of more.

Then there is the obvious action economy, which allows the normal Summoner to have an extra kick out of short duration buffs and/or buff mid-battle with less trouble if anything bad happens.

Also, while indeed a Synthesist is overall more durable than a Summoner, it's fairly easy for the latter to vanish from the battle (with Invisibility, which doesn't break with buff spells) or by disguising himself as something else; remember, characters don't wear tags with their classes, so a beefy Wizard who walks half-naked and carries a Greataxe will be perceived as a Barbarian, similarly a Summoner can pose himself as a normal archer by hiding his "Eidolon rune" with a hat, he can go further and use Arcane Mark to put it on someone else's head and confuse enemies.

While on the durability matter, the greatest weakness of any Summoner is his "save or suck" nature of having a poor Will save to prevent his Eidolon from being banished that can seriously jeopardize the safety of not only himself, but also the party (if the Eidolon is the main tank, which is likely).

However, the Synthesist is in extra trouble as he'll be in the eye of the storm, with all the enemies locked and loaded at him, while his class cousins will at least not have so much attention, probably giving them enough time to use Summon Monster and get back on the game.

All that said, the Synthesist does have a great deal of extra power due to not having to buff twice (saving precious spell slots) and not having to share his gear slots; both abilities which are more important than they may look.


And then there are variables which can seriously shift the balance on who has an upper hand, the biggest one being obviously house rules and DM style:

- If your DM constantly plays against the PCs, the Summoner has a much bigger upper hand since losing the Eidolon won't be rare.

- If your DM decides that he'll RP your Eidolon and rules that he cannot make use of battle tactics and/or constantly makes it not obey you (both that I've seen applied to Animal Companions), then the Synthesist has a huge advantage since his Eidolon doesn't have a mind of its own and as such is immune to this; if the DM rules that the Eidolon does have a mind, then the Synthesist is entitled to ask for feats and skills for the Eidolon as well.

- If your DM rules that a Synthesist can add his Eidolon's BAB to multiclass BAB, then it might also be a huge advantage since it opens up build possibilities (while a normal Summoner is stuck with Summoner 20 to make his Eidolon be good) and can get some ridiculous combos such as Sneak Attack added to a creature with 5+ Natural Attacks with Reach...scary. Otherwise, while the option for something like this is still there, having to trade BAB and also be locked into only dipping a level or two elsewhere most probably is able to more or less balance the whole deal.

- If your DM allows you to trade Summon Monster for something else, it might also benefit a Synthesist more than a Summoner as the ability adds much less for a Synthesist who gets struck on his main glaring weakness than it does for the other types.

[Larpus]

Been having fun with this character.
Our GM has ruled in my favour twice now, after ruling against me (and for common sense) about wearing armour under the Eidolon.

To whit:
I can still use all of my gear without penalty. This means I can use my longspear or sling without having to banish the Eidolon first.
(This does mean I theoretically 'can' get an additional attack, but the penalties are way too high at the moment).
Interesting, personally I think that would make a Synthesist too powerful, but since your DM has allowed that, it means that you get to actually field-test it, care to post the results once you start to use the extra attacks?

Similarly, would be nice if you could post your opinion on if the Eidolon benefiting from armor and enchantments that depend on the physical armor itself is too powerful or not.

[IthroZada]

Been having fun with this character.
Our GM has ruled in my favour twice now, after ruling against me (and for common sense) about wearing armour under the Eidolon.



Could you not wear the armor over it? I know Eidolons normally can't wear armor, but I read the Eidolon as having your proficiencies when you wear it. Granted, that could be bad if your Eidolon is dismissed and you now have no armor or anything to protect you.

[Larpus]

Could you not wear the armor over it? I know Eidolons normally can't wear armor, but I read the Eidolon as having your proficiencies when you wear it. Granted, that could be bad if your Eidolon is dismissed and you now have no armor or anything to protect you.
Now that's a nice question...I guess it can, otherwise a Synthesist cannot make his Eidolon use a weapon.

Anyway, can't the Summoner inside still use his own armor tho?

I mean, I never read too deep into the item slots thing, but the way my DM rules is that the item slots only affect how many magical items you can have active, so you can equip both a Belt of Giant Strength and a Belt of Ridicule Size at the same time, but only activate one or the other (since you only have one belt slot); changing which item is active in a single slot is a move action.

[Barstro]

Now that's a nice question...I guess it can, otherwise a Synthesist cannot make his Eidolon use a weapon.

Anyway, can't the Summoner inside still use his own armor tho?

As I recall, Eidolon gets summoned with the weapon (needs to be purchased first, but it dis/appears with the weapon.

There is debate on if the Synthesist can "use" armor. He can certainly wear it and get its protection with the Eidolon is down. Some say that because the Eidolon is fused, the bonus stacks. Others say that because the Eidolon surrounds the Synthesist, and is outside of the armor, that the armor's bonus doesn't stack (but magic properties are available).

[Larpus]

As I recall, Eidolon gets summoned with the weapon (needs to be purchased first, but it dis/appears with the weapon.

There is debate on if the Synthesist can "use" armor. He can certainly wear it and get its protection with the Eidolon is down. Some say that because the Eidolon is fused, the bonus stacks. Others say that because the Eidolon surrounds the Synthesist, and is outside of the armor, that the armor's bonus doesn't stack (but magic properties are available).
Indeed, we had a discussion about this on this thread even I believe, I personally believe the armor bonus (and magical ones dependent on the physical armor, such as Blinding) are not added, but I fully agree that the rules can be interpreted either way and the DM shall do the rulling.

However, what Zada pointed out is that since a Synthesist's Eidolon inherits the Synthesist's feats, wouldn't it be able to equip an armor?

Though thinking about it again, it seems very unlikely to be possible since it's written that the Eidolon cannot wear armor of any kind of armor as it interferes with its link with the Summoner (touché).

[IthroZada]

Though thinking about it again, it seems very unlikely to be possible since it's written that the Eidolon cannot wear armor of any kind of armor as it interferes with its link with the Summoner (touché).

The flip side being that you're pretty obviously linked when you are inside of the creature.

[Larpus]

The flip side being that you're pretty obviously linked when you are inside of the creature.
Yeah, it can be seen like that, though I believe it's a bit of a stretch, since the armor is supposed to make it impossible for the Summoner to summon the Eidolon, so the moment a Synthesist puts any armor on the Eidolon I guess it disappears to its plane and cannot be called back until the armor is removed.

Still, can be stretched so the Synthesist can use armor as the fused Eidolon.

[MeeposFire]

Yeah, it can be seen like that, though I believe it's a bit of a stretch, since the armor is supposed to make it impossible for the Summoner to summon the Eidolon, so the moment a Synthesist puts any armor on the Eidolon I guess it disappears to its plane and cannot be called back until the armor is removed.

Still, can be stretched so the Synthesist can use armor as the fused Eidolon.

As far as I recall summoners have no problem calling in armor only that eidelons can't wear it. So your summoner should be fine as long as they don't put armor on the eidelon.

[panaikhan]

Interesting, personally I think that would make a Synthesist too powerful, but since your DM has allowed that, it means that you get to actually field-test it, care to post the results once you start to use the extra attacks?

Similarly, would be nice if you could post your opinion on if the Eidolon benefiting from armor and enchantments that depend on the physical armor itself is too powerful or not.

Well, reading the PF rules on weapon and natural attacks...
If any creature uses both, then the primary attack is the weapon.
All other natural attacks are considered secondary (at -5 to hit) AND all attacks are subject to TWF penalties.
Until I can do something about the -7 to hit, then I won't be looking at it much.

As far as the armour goes - our GM has already ruled that any 'armour bonus' the Summoner may have does not count towards the fused AC.
Things that offer AC bonuses of other types (deflection, dodge, etc etc.) I will comment about when we start getting them.

[Larpus]

Well, reading the PF rules on weapon and natural attacks...
If any creature uses both, then the primary attack is the weapon.
All other natural attacks are considered secondary (at -5 to hit) AND all attacks are subject to TWF penalties.
Until I can do something about the -7 to hit, then I won't be looking at it much.

As far as the armour goes - our GM has already ruled that any 'armour bonus' the Summoner may have does not count towards the fused AC.
Things that offer AC bonuses of other types (deflection, dodge, etc etc.) I will comment about when we start getting them.
First, I think your facts are a bit mixed up on the NA, TWF only affects actual man-made weapons, so a creature with NAs using a weapon (non TWF) will make the first weapon attack at full BAB and all Natural Attacks will be considered secondary, so will be made at -5 and that's it. Even if it uses TWF (with the feat), it'll now have two weapon attacks at -4/-4 (or -2/-2 if the offhand is light), but the NAs will still be at just -5, not -7.

Creatures with natural attacks and attacks made with weapons can use both as part of a full attack action (although often a creature must forgo one natural attack for each weapon clutched in that limb, be it a claw, tentacle, or slam). Such creatures attack with their weapons normally but treat all of their available natural attacks as secondary attacks during that attack, regardless of the attack’s original type.
As for armor, yes, I do believe that armor enhancements apply, such as the flat +1, Dodge, etc; however there are some effects that are dependent on the armor itself to manifest, such as Blinding which, the way I see it, is simply useless for a fused Synthesist if the DM rules that armor does not give you the armor bonus.

I don't believe that it makes a big difference, since I can't remember any OP armor bonus and don't think that adding +1~4 to the Eidolon AC is "too much" or anything, still, I'm curious to see it actually tested.


On a related thought, do Shields count as armor?

Or the Eidolon can equip those free of issues (supposing it has the feat)?

[Barstro]

I don't believe that it makes a big difference, since I can't remember any OP armor bonus and don't think that adding +1~4 to the Eidolon AC is "too much" or anything, still, I'm curious to see it actually tested.


On a related thought, do Shields count as armor?

Or the Eidolon can equip those free of issues (supposing it has the feat)?

That +1~4 would on top of all the other armor bonuses they get. It might be too much, only playtesting will tell.

I seem to recall that Pathfinder or a Handbook said that they can use shields, "but would rarely have the free arm to do so". Personally, I'd think that giving up one attack for a shield might be worth it.

[Larpus]

That +1~4 would on top of all the other armor bonuses they get. It might be too much, only playtesting will tell.

I seem to recall that Pathfinder or a Handbook said that they can use shields, "but would rarely have the free arm to do so". Personally, I'd think that giving up one attack for a shield might be worth it.
Do double shields' bonuses apply?

If yes I just thought of this very suspicious and wrong idea of a Khali Eidolon with a bazillion shields for ultimate defense. Just thinking about it makes me laugh a little due to how absurd, wrong and ridiculous that would be.

[Starbuck_II]

Do double shields' bonuses apply?

If yes I just thought of this very suspicious and wrong idea of a Khali Eidolon with a bazillion shields for ultimate defense. Just thinking about it makes me laugh a little due to how absurd, wrong and ridiculous that would be.

Nope, never did.
There might be a feat somewhere that allows it (homebrew or dragon magazine). But nothing Pathfinder.

[Larpus]

Nope, never did.
There might be a feat somewhere that allows it (homebrew or dragon magazine). But nothing Pathfinder.
Balls, there go my dreams of having an Eidolon wall...squashed like a rotten strawberry under the spiked kiss boot of reality.

[panaikhan]

Multiple shields.
There is a weapon in the World Book which is a short blade mounted in a skull (or somesuch) which gives a shield bonus to AC. I have a Barbarian build that wears two, and goes down both the shield optimisation and TWF/TWD routes. I see no reason why a creature cannot benefit from more than one shield, and neither can my GM...

[panaikhan]

Update.

My GM got his first taste of the Trip combo this weekend. the Synthesist managed to keep three combatants on their butt for most of the battle, and did a surprising amount of damage in general.
He succeeded in drawing a lot of attention (what a Tank is there for) and with almost double the HP of the DPS Ranger, did more than his fair share of soaking.

About the multiple attacks - my brain, for some reason, misinterpreted 'unarmed attack' in the explanation to include the natural attacks - my mistake. This makes Multi-Attack my next choice for a feat :smallbiggrin:
As soon as I am 'allowed' an extra attack, expect that longspear to start poking around...

[Larpus]

Update.

My GM got his first taste of the Trip combo this weekend. the Synthesist managed to keep three combatants on their butt for most of the battle, and did a surprising amount of damage in general.
He succeeded in drawing a lot of attention (what a Tank is there for) and with almost double the HP of the DPS Ranger, did more than his fair share of soaking.

About the multiple attacks - my brain, for some reason, misinterpreted 'unarmed attack' in the explanation to include the natural attacks - my mistake. This makes Multi-Attack my next choice for a feat :smallbiggrin:
As soon as I am 'allowed' an extra attack, expect that longspear to start poking around...
That's nice to know.

How did it feel btw? Overpowered? Just right? At any point did you wish you could do something else (attack with a bow, cast, sit and ponder about the universe and its mysteries, etc) while your Eidolon kept doing his thing?

As for Multi-Attack, I know that I Synthesist's Eidolon doesn't have skills or feats of its on, but I thought the level special Eidolon abilities were still in the game?

Or you simply don't want to wait all the way to level 9 to grab it?

EDIT: It's also a bit sad to know since my 'fear' was well placed and if I don't want to overshadow the Fighter in the upcoming game I should not go with a Summoner, Synthesist or not; he's a new player and I don't think he'll handle well a caster class being as good/better than he is at what he's supposed to be very good at.

[Barstro]

As for Multi-Attack, I know that I Synthesist's Eidolon doesn't have skills or feats of its on, but I thought the level special Eidolon abilities were still in the game?

Or you simply don't want to wait all the way to level 9 to grab it?

That's how I read the rules; "Eidolon gets Multi-Attack at L9". Nothing in the writing on Synthesist implies that they do not get it as well.

Assuming a player took the Feat before L9, what happens at L9? Nothing, or does the player get to choose a different Feat?

[Barstro]

Update.

My GM got his first taste of the Trip combo this weekend.

Don't keep us in suspense; what is your attack combo?

[panaikhan]

It's a standard wolf tactic (and has been used on my PC's in the past :smallfurious:)
My Eidolon's Bite attack (if successful) gets a free trip at the same value as the successful attack.
If the trip is successful, the opponent then provokes an AoO when thet try to stand up - which will be the bite (of course), which gets a free trip attempt if it hits...

Along with the bite are two primary claw attacks.
When my Eidolon is allowed a fourth attack, I'll start using my spear and have all the natural attacks as secondary (unless it's the trip loop above)

I'm a bit unsure about the whole ability / feat thing, because at 2nd level the Eidolon gains Evasion, not as a feat but as an ability.

[Larpus]

That's how I read the rules; "Eidolon gets Multi-Attack at L9". Nothing in the writing on Synthesist implies that they do not get it as well.

Assuming a player took the Feat before L9, what happens at L9? Nothing, or does the player get to choose a different Feat?
I believe that nothing happens seeing as there is no follow-up feat to Multi-Attack. However it wouldn't be crazy for a DM to rule that you get a bonus feat or that you now get TWF instead (or Multi-Weapon FIghting).


It's a standard wolf tactic (and has been used on my PC's in the past :smallfurious:)
My Eidolon's Bite attack (if successful) gets a free trip at the same value as the successful attack.
If the trip is successful, the opponent then provokes an AoO when thet try to stand up - which will be the bite (of course), which gets a free trip attempt if it hits...

Along with the bite are two primary claw attacks.
When my Eidolon is allowed a fourth attack, I'll start using my spear and have all the natural attacks as secondary (unless it's the trip loop above)

I'm a bit unsure about the whole ability / feat thing, because at 2nd level the Eidolon gains Evasion, not as a feat but as an ability.
My take is that the Eidolon gets its abilities as normal, similar to constructs with abilities, since those are tied to the "body".

The reason it cannot have feats or skills is that it doesn't have a "mind" (at least not while on our plane, which is where it counts), since when you separate from it at lvl16 it works "just like a regular Summoner's Eidolon" and as such supposedly gets the feats and skills that it was supposed to, my interpretation is that it does have a mind, it just gets suppressed every single time it's on the Summoner's plane (again, where it counts).

Anyway, yes, that way of using trip is very godly, if you're able to focus on a single enemy you can have him locked up for the whole fight, this is an attack procedure I always follow when I'm playing a Rogue: either use a Whip or grab Imp Trip and trip my target, wait for it to stand up, if it does, AoO with Sneak Attack, then I trip it again (you do get the extra feature of tripping him as soon as he rises), if it doesn't, I simply smack him silly on the ground.

[panaikhan]

Anyway, yes, that way of using trip is very godly, if you're able to focus on a single enemy you can have him locked up for the whole fight.

Combat Reflexes.
You can keep multiple opponents on the floor (sinse it costs them an action to stand, and you get a free attempt to knock them over again).

[Barstro]

My Eidolon's Bite attack (if successful) gets a free trip at the same value as the successful attack.
If the trip is successful, the opponent then provokes an AoO when thet try to stand up

Along with the bite are two primary claw attacks.
When my Eidolon is allowed a fourth attack, I'll start using my spear and have all the natural attacks as secondary (unless it's the trip loop above)

Why would you use a spear instead of keeping the Bite primary and making it stronger? You only get one attack for AoO, and I'm sure you would make it the trip attack. Since your Eidolon is tanking, it shouldn't have to worry too much about movement, so it can use Full Actions to bite twice if under the Haste spell.*

Or do you think that knocking your Bite and other Claw attack is a small price to pay for the use of a spear?

* I'd been thinking about a multi-claw striker-pouncer, but a single (double with Haste) Bite trip-pouncer might work well too; Pounce, Bite-trip, Bite-trip, AoE AoO Bite-trip, AoE AoO Bite-trip, Pounce adjacent to two other enemies and repeat.

[Larpus]

Combat Reflexes.
You can keep multiple opponents on the floor (sinse it costs them an action to stand, and you get a free attempt to knock them over again).
Good idea, never occurred to me to be honest.

Though it works much, much better with reach (Whip) and works better if there is a way for the first AoO to be triggered without tripping everyone myself (so I don't spend too much time and have everyone run out of my reach).


Why would you use a spear instead of keeping the Bite primary and making it stronger? You only get one attack for AoO, and I'm sure you would make it the trip attack. Since your Eidolon is tanking, it shouldn't have to worry too much about movement, so it can use Full Actions to bite twice if under the Haste spell.*

Or do you think that knocking your Bite and other Claw attack is a small price to pay for the use of a spear?

* I'd been thinking about a multi-claw striker-pouncer, but a single (double with Haste) Bite trip-pouncer might work well too; Pounce, Bite-trip, Bite-trip, AoE Bite-trip, AoE Bite-trip, Pounce adjacent to two other enemies and repeat.
Well, depending on the DM focusing too much on Natural Attacks might not be a good idea due to damage reduction and whatnot; similarly, for things like Vital Strike and other "single big attack" feats/situations a big damage weapon will always be better than any Bite you can get, but having the secondary attacks won't hurt anyone (other than your target).

EDIT: Just checked the Spear damage die, yeah, it's not the best option at all (so grab Martial Proficiency: Greatsword or similar asap), unless you think you can hit with all your attacks, chances are you'd be better off using Bite+Claws, grab the Improved Natural Weapon for Claws and possibly Energy Attacks (acid), the latter seems to be applied to all your Eidolon's attacks,but there is the issue if it adds the damage or replaces it, RAW seems to imply the latter, but RAI is quite clearly the former.

But other than that I do agree, unless I'm having absolutely no trouble hitting I'd refrain from using Weapon Attacks 'till lvl9 for the Multi-Attack.

As for mobility, if the Eidolon is a quad, it can get Pounce and go to town with ease.

[Barstro]

Though it works much, much better with reach (Whip) and works better if there is a way for the first AoO to be triggered without tripping everyone myself (so I don't spend too much time and have everyone run out of my reach).

Or just take the Reach-Bite evolution and continue to pounce away.



But other than that I do agree, unless I'm having absolutely no trouble hitting I'd refrain from using Weapon Attacks 'till lvl9 for the Multi-Attack.

After looking at Multi-Attack, I'd even get rid of claws. Then you get a second (third with Haste) tripping Bite attack (at -5) starting at level 9. But I suppose you still get those Bite attacks while wielding a weapon, but at additional negatives for being secondary attacks.

[panaikhan]

Multi-attack says you need 3 or more attacks.
Natural weapons NEVER get itterative attacks (spelling?) so you're stuck with one bite, unless you have lots of heads.

[Barstro]

Multi-attack says you need 3 or more attacks.
Natural weapons NEVER get itterative attacks (spelling?) so you're stuck with one bite, unless you have lots of heads.

Counterpoint;


An eidolon gains Multiattack as a bonus feat if it has 3 or more natural attacks and does not already have that feat. If it does not have the requisite 3 or more natural attacks (or it is reduced to less than 3 attacks), the eidolon instead gains a second attack with one of its natural weapons, albeit at a –5 penalty. If the eidolon later gains 3 or more natural attacks, it loses this additional attack and instead gains Multiattack.


When making a full attack action, a hasted creature may make one extra attack with any weapon he is holding.

There seems to be some debate on if a natural attack counts as holding a weapon. Strict reading says that it does not, but it makes little sense that someone can swing a sword a second time, but not extend a claw. I believe the wording was just to make sure that second spell attacks weren't made.


James Jacobs clarified that Haste does grant 1 extra natural attack. There are a few threads on the subject. Specifically are references to the fact that natural attacks are still considered weapons, you count as armed, threaten squares, and so on. The only inherent difference is the inability to disarm them and that they do not get itierative attacks. Cite (http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderRPG/rules/persistentTouchAttacksSpellCombatAndFullAttacks&page=1)

So, unless there are some other rules I do not know (a very distinct possibility), One Head + Multi-Attack variant + Haste = Three Bite Attack (one at -5) with a Full Attack.

[Larpus]

Some more on bite, let's not forget that it's a perfectly viable build to make an Eidolon based on having multiple heads and bite attacks, if you throw in tail attacks as well, you end up with something that is just a bit more Evo-costly than a claws Eidolon, but has extra utility from multiple trips and fares just as well in combat.

Not sure if it's worth it to go for Serpentine base tho, while the setup is better, you do lose Pounce, which is shiny, awesome and desired...

[Reverent-One]

It's a standard wolf tactic (and has been used on my PC's in the past :smallfurious:)
My Eidolon's Bite attack (if successful) gets a free trip at the same value as the successful attack.
If the trip is successful, the opponent then provokes an AoO when thet try to stand up - which will be the bite (of course), which gets a free trip attempt if it hits...

...Which is utterly pointless, since the enemy is prone when you make the AoO, and thus cannot be tripped again.

[Barstro]

On Trip-AoO

...Which is utterly pointless, since the enemy is prone when you make the AoO, and thus cannot be tripped again.

Are you saying that the enemy would still be allowed to stand after that (presumably successful) AoO?

Edit: Yep, that's what it says.

[Reverent-One]

Are you saying that the enemy would still be allowed to stand after that (presumably successful) AoO?

Yes, the AoO interrupts the enemy's attempt to stand up, so it would still be prone when you make the free trip attempt. After the AoO, it's turn continues and the enemy actually stands up.

[Barstro]

Yes, the AoO interrupts the enemy's attempt to stand up, so it would still be prone when you make the free trip attempt. After the AoO, it's turn continues and the enemy actually stands up.

That's just silly. But, I do now see that the rules state just that.

Not as good as I originally thought, but the almost constant free hits is still a winner. Especially when the Bite attack has Reach attached to it, then my second AoO trips (unless I'm missing something, again).

[Reverent-One]

That's just silly. But, I do now see that the rules state just that.

It's not silly at all really, you can't knock someone down when they're already down.


Not as good as I originally thought, but the almost constant free hits is still a winner. Especially when the Bite attack has Reach attached to it.

It's certainly a nice idea, my Summoner's Eidolon is a tripper (though he uses a Scythe combined with the Reach evo), and yeah, things fall down, things get beat up as they try to stand back up.

[Akal Saris]

That's just silly. But, I do now see that the rules state just that.

Not as good as I originally thought, but the almost constant free hits is still a winner. Especially when the Bite attack has Reach attached to it, then my second AoO trips (unless I'm missing something, again).

You might be missing something again - you can only get one AOO on an opponent for a single move action, even if they move through multiple threatened squares. You could take one for an opponent standing and another for movement, however.

From the SRD:
Combat Reflexes and Additional Attacks of Opportunity

If you have the Combat Reflexes feat, you can add your Dexterity modifier to the number of attacks of opportunity you can make in a round. This feat does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity, but if the same opponent provokes two attacks of opportunity from you, you could make two separate attacks of opportunity (since each one represents a different opportunity). Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn't count as more than one opportunity for that opponent. All these attacks are at your full normal attack bonus.

[Tvtyrant]

Couldn't you just use a Bipedal Eidolon, and then have it use your prof with a greatsword to do maximum damage? So you take martial weapon prof (greatsword) and then spend the rest of your evolution points on things like size, breath weapon, extra con, etc. Then haul a large greatsword around and have it use it when your merged for maximum PA damage.

[panaikhan]

Yes, the AoO interrupts the enemy's attempt to stand up, so it would still be prone when you make the free trip attempt. After the AoO, it's turn continues and the enemy actually stands up.

The way we looked at it - the enemy expended their move action to attempt to stand up, and the AoO happens during the move action. It seems totally stupid for the AoO to happen before he tries to stand up, because he hasn't done anything to provoke one. :smallconfused:

It's the way we play all of the AoO's. if you hit a spellcaster who foolishly tries to cast a spell in front of you, but your attack happens before he cast the spell, then the AoO doesn't make casting the spell any more difficult.

[Barstro]

The way we looked at it - the enemy expended their move action to attempt to stand up, and the AoO happens during the move action. It seems totally stupid for the AoO to happen before he tries to stand up, because he hasn't done anything to provoke one. :smallconfused:

Well, in order to force this to make sense (I do still disagree with the physics, but it is probably better for the game (don't want PCs to be stuck prone either)), getting up involves being distracted (looking at ground, putting arm out), THAT causes the AoO. Person is still on the ground, and braced (other arm is out, still on knees, etc.) making him much harder to trip. I think the reality would be that he could still be knocked prone, just be much more difficult. After that hit, he is still able to complete the stand. Were I to houserule, I'd either give the person attempting to stand a large bonus to his resistance to trip, or allow him to stand and give a slight negative to his chance to hit afterwards.

[Larpus]

Couldn't you just use a Bipedal Eidolon, and then have it use your prof with a greatsword to do maximum damage? So you take martial weapon prof (greatsword) and then spend the rest of your evolution points on things like size, breath weapon, extra con, etc. Then haul a large greatsword around and have it use it when your merged for maximum PA damage.
Why limit yourself?

Just grab an extra pair of Limbs(arms), the Martial:Greatsword and go to town with all your attacks.

Also, in the lower levels (as in, before 9 or so), it's not really useful to have the weapon attack as opposed to the natural ones, since you can have 3-5 natural attacks at full BAB, but your second weapon attack is made with at -5.

Also, sticking to natural weapons early on helps with money, so you can focus your gold on other equipment pieces, but I do agree that a point can be made that a weapon-based Eidolon gets "more" Evo points and can have extra "utility" evolutions....this calls for math, but given the progression of natural attacks vs. weapon ones I'd say that a hybrid is the better route.

As for going bipedal, the main draw of that form is not the free evolution economy (since you don't "lose" 2 points on the extra "useless" Limbs(legs)), but the good Will save, though this is only relevant to non-Synthesist Summoners. On the other hand, quad form has the much desired pounce, which is available at level 1, making it one of the few cases where a "PC" can have this (or a similar effect) at early levels.

[Barstro]

You might be missing something again - you can only get one AOO on an opponent for a single move action, even if they move through multiple threatened squares. You could take one for an opponent standing and another for movement, however.

From the SRD:
Combat Reflexes and Additional Attacks of Opportunity

If you have the Combat Reflexes feat, you can add your Dexterity modifier to the number of attacks of opportunity you can make in a round. This feat does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity, but if the same opponent provokes two attacks of opportunity from you, you could make two separate attacks of opportunity (since each one represents a different opportunity). Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn't count as more than one opportunity for that opponent. All these attacks are at your full normal attack bonus.

By my reading (assuming I have reach and NPC is 10' away) I could get AoO for him standing, or I could forgo that one and take it after he stands and tries to move from that square (if he doesn't use 5' step).

If I have Combat Reflexes, I can take it when he stands, and then when he moves.

My interpretation of "moving out of more than one square"
If a normal-sized NPC moves from a threatened square, I get AoO. If his movement continues and he moves from another square that I threaten, I get another AoO.
The "moving out of more than one square" applies to Large+ NPCs. If a Large NPC is next to me (I do not have reach), he could be in two squares that I threaten. If he walks away from me, I get one AoO, even though he left two squares that I threatened. If he foolishly walked around me, but within 5', I would get AoO for every 5' that he moved (again, assuming I have CR).
RAW's use of "same round" instead of "at the same time" suggests that my interpretation is incorrect.

[Ashiel]

Simple enough question.
I was considering a Barbarian / Oracle / Rage Prophet build for an up-coming jaunt through Serpent's Skull, but having just recieved my copy of Ultimate Magic, I am sorely tempted by the Synthesist Summoner.

Anyone offer any advice?

Not sure if anyone mentioned it, but if you begin as Venerable with a 1 Con, due to the way raising Con works in d20 you actually end up with an amazingly potent amount of hit points due to the minimum HP rules. Basically, you would begin with 8 HP -5 for your abyssmal Con for 3 HP base, and then 1 Hp per level thereafter, plus the Hp of your Eidolon. However when bound to your eidolon, your Con increases, providing a +1 HP/level for every 2 points difference, which actually gains you HP as if you had a very high Con score while you are merged.

Meanwhile, this allows you to plant the rest of your stats into Int, Wis, and Cha, while getting a +3 age bonus to each, while retaining a Str 16, Dex 12, Con 13 or somesuch (going from memory here), which is amazingly nice in the standard 15 or even 20 point buy brackets, and still above 25 point buy.

The only risk to this, however, is that a Con damaging disease can kill you easily, since when your character goes to sleep they un-merge with the eidolon, resulting in you taking damage to your Con from the disease or affliction. This actually killed a synthesist tank using this trick in a recent online game of me, which resulted in a crusty 90+ year old zombie (since he caught the zombie rot :P).

Meanwhile, there are some very useful tricks for the summoner. If you summon your Eidolon via the spell rather than the class feature, you get to apply Augment Summoning to its statistics, resulting in a quick +4 bonus to Strength and Constitution for your summoner. This alone can push your physical ability scores quite high before magic items and the like.

Combined with the ability to tank your physical stats to the nether regions, then boost them up via your summoned eidolon, you could have the following ability scores before racial modifiers.

Standard 15 Point Buy
Unbonded: Str 1, Dex 1, Con 1, Int 14, Wis 20, Cha 20
Bonded: Str 20, Dex 12, Con 17, Int 14, Wis 20, Cha 20.
Base Hp: 5 Hp + 1 HP / level
Boneded HP: 13 Hp + 9 HP / level plus 8.5 + 8.5 / HD.

If you do die of some sort of Con damage, a reincarnate spell will bring you back with a new body and everything (your age penalties would be removed so this works even at 1st level where you might have to take Con drain, but it costs 1,280 gp to get reincarnated so it's usually prohibitively expensive at that level).

Ultimately this leads to a lot of HP, good base stats, and good saving throws. Also until errata'd, the synthesist retains the use of his equipment, meaning that you can wear armor, which can bring your AC to surprisingly high numbers as well. Long story short, being Iron Man isn't a bad path for a synthesist.

[Reverent-One]

The way we looked at it - the enemy expended their move action to attempt to stand up, and the AoO happens during the move action. It seems totally stupid for the AoO to happen before he tries to stand up, because he hasn't done anything to provoke one. :smallconfused:

That why the AoO happens after he tries to stand up, but before he finishes the process. It interrupts the action. It also means the enemy still has the -4 to AC for being prone, which is a nice bonus. It's the same as if an enemy just walks away from you, they're spending their move to leave the threatend square, but the attack happens before they leave the square (otherwise they could move from the edge of your reach to outside of your reach without getting an AoO).


It's the way we play all of the AoO's. if you hit a spellcaster who foolishly tries to cast a spell in front of you, but your attack happens before he cast the spell, then the AoO doesn't make casting the spell any more difficult.

On the other hand, having the AoO take place after the spell means that a caster can cast something to make the AoO pointless and avoid it entirely.

[Tvtyrant]

Why limit yourself?

Just grab an extra pair of Limbs(arms), the Martial:Greatsword and go to town with all your attacks.

Also, in the lower levels (as in, before 9 or so), it's not really useful to have the weapon attack as opposed to the natural ones, since you can have 3-5 natural attacks at full BAB, but your second weapon attack is made with at -5.

Also, sticking to natural weapons early on helps with money, so you can focus your gold on other equipment pieces, but I do agree that a point can be made that a weapon-based Eidolon gets "more" Evo points and can have extra "utility" evolutions....this calls for math, but given the progression of natural attacks vs. weapon ones I'd say that a hybrid is the better route.

As for going bipedal, the main draw of that form is not the free evolution economy (since you don't "lose" 2 points on the extra "useless" Limbs(legs)), but the good Will save, though this is only relevant to non-Synthesist Summoners. On the other hand, quad form has the much desired pounce, which is available at level 1, making it one of the few cases where a "PC" can have this (or a similar effect) at early levels.

I thought the point of the Bipedal form was the greater strength score. And the utility evolutions on the higher end are very nice; the magic and breath ones can grant you abilities that you simply don't have as a Summoner.

[MeeposFire]

I thought the point of the Bipedal form was the greater strength score. And the utility evolutions on the higher end are very nice; the magic and breath ones can grant you abilities that you simply don't have as a Summoner.

I thought the best part of bipedal was increased reach at higher levels.

[panaikhan]

That why the AoO happens after he tries to stand up, but before he finishes the process. It interrupts the action. It also means the enemy still has the -4 to AC for being prone, which is a nice bonus. It's the same as if an enemy just walks away from you, they're spending their move to leave the threatend square, but the attack happens before they leave the square (otherwise they could move from the edge of your reach to outside of your reach without getting an AoO).

On the other hand, having the AoO take place after the spell means that a caster can cast something to make the AoO pointless and avoid it entirely.
The point I was trying to make was, the AoO happens DURING the action that causes it. Not before. Not afterwards.
Hitting someone before or after they cast a spell is meaningless. It does nothing.
You don't get an AoO for someone simply standing there. Nor do you get one for him simply lying there. It is his attempt to move away or stand up.
Normally an AoO can't stop someone from standing up. Attempting to Trip them during the AoO (which normally requires a second roll) should be able to.

[Reverent-One]

The point I was trying to make was, the AoO happens DURING the action that causes it. Not before. Not afterwards.

Which is exactly what I've been saying. It's just at what point "during" the action does it take place? By the rules it's before they become unprone, because otherwise you'd be doing it after the action that provoked is complete.

If an enemy tries to walk away from you, do you wait until he's one square away before you make the AoO, meaning anyone without reach isn't going to be able to attack an enemy that's walking away? I hope not, but if you're waiting to make the AoO until they've completed the action of standing up, you're being inconsistent with the rules if you don't handle the AoOs from walking away like that.

[panaikhan]

Which is exactly what I've been saying. It's just at what point "during" the action does it take place? By the rules it's before they become unprone, because otherwise you'd be doing it after the action that provoked is complete.

If an enemy tries to walk away from you, do you wait until he's one square away before you make the AoO, meaning anyone without reach isn't going to be able to attack an enemy that's walking away? I hope not, but if you're waiting to make the AoO until they've completed the action of standing up, you're being inconsistent with the rules if you don't handle the AoOs from walking away like that.

You are reacting as if there are only two states for everything. Before, or after.
How about this?

Prone - Standing up - Stood up.
Not Casting - Casting - Cast.
Not Moving - Moving - Moved.

[Reverent-One]

And where is the standing up condition listed? There isn't one, either the enemy is prone or he isn't, and if he isn't prone, then he's finished the action of standing up.

[Larpus]

I thought the best part of bipedal was increased reach at higher levels.
Good point, totally forgot about that one...what wins? Pounce or 10ft reach?

I'm not considering the 5ft Evolution since quad can also have that.

[MeeposFire]

Good point, totally forgot about that one...what wins? Pounce or 10ft reach?

I'm not considering the 5ft Evolution since quad can also have that.

You should since the bipedal starts with access to weapons which means you can use a reach weapon to double your reach whereas the quad needs to spend more to get it.

[panaikhan]

And where is the standing up condition listed? There isn't one, either the enemy is prone or he isn't, and if he isn't prone, then he's finished the action of standing up.

I forgot.
In D&D, beings simply teleport from the fully prone to the standing position.
Just like they can travel thousands of miles in a matter of seconds, if they line up enough horses.

Forgive me for attempting to bring a little realism.

[Reverent-One]

I forgot.
In D&D, beings simply teleport from the fully prone to the standing position.
Just like they can travel thousands of miles in a matter of seconds, if they line up enough horses.

Forgive me for attempting to bring a little realism.

It's not a matter of adding realism, it's just that if a character is in the process of standing up, they still have the prone condition mechanically. If you wait until they are no longer prone, you're no longer interrupting their action, but going after it. It's as simple as that. Again, if an enemy tries to walk away from you, do you wait until he's one square away before you try make the AoO?

[Barstro]

It's not a matter of adding realism, it's just that if a character is in the process of standing up, they still have the prone condition mechanically. If you wait until they are no longer prone, you're no longer interrupting their action, but going after it.

Which takes care of everything except the part about not being able to trip. If they are in the process of getting up, a good attack should be able knock a leg/arm out and prevent a rise in the first place.

In the Real World; 1)NPC starts to rise, 2)rising causes distraction, 3)distraction allows PC to attack (which could keep the other person down).

But, RAW is; 1)NPC starts to rise, 2)PC says "you are going to be distracted, and I'm going to hit you, 3)NPC says "ok, give me a good thrashing, I'll just lie here", 4)PC attacks, 5)NPC gets up.

[Barstro]

Good point, totally forgot about that one...what wins? Pounce or 10ft reach?

I'm not considering the 5ft Evolution since quad can also have that.

Not considering that? That's what gives me my answer.
A Quadruped can spend one evolution point for Reach (not sure if you can stack Reach with itself). Not as great as Biped's reach with Large/Huge, but still good.
There is nothing that a Biped can do to get Pounce.

Seems silly to me that a Biped with an extra Limbs/Legs evolution cannot get Pounce and that not all Large Eidolons get Reach. If Serpentine and Quadruped get 10-foot reach at Huge, why not five-foot at Large? Probably balance. :smallamused:

[Larpus]

Not considering that? That's what gives me my answer.
A Quadruped can spend one evolution point for Reach (not sure if you can stack Reach with itself). Not as great as Biped's reach with Large/Huge, but still good.
There is nothing that a Biped can do to get Pounce.

Seems silly to me that a Biped with an extra Limbs/Legs evolution cannot get Pounce and that not all Large Eidolons get Reach. If Serpentine and Quadruped get 10-foot reach at Huge, why not five-foot at Large? Probably balance. :smallamused:
Well, the not considering part is that since both of them can get the 5ft evolution, then the difference in their reach is always 10ft, regardless of what they do (short of going Huge, which doesn't seem to be the brightest idea).

But yeah, I agree with you that the rules are overall stinky; even beyond Eidolons, why is it so hard for a PC to get Pounce?? If it's because "then everyone would get it, silly" then there should've been designed some secondary option to full-attacks for melee to hit stuff hard.

As for Pounce vs. 10ft Reach, I guess that Pounce does sound better, since most enemies will be able to move 20ft+ and give you a hard time to get a full-attack in, while Pounce can do that easely.

Still, I remember very well that one of the worst things to do as a melee is to engage a critter with a 10ft reach, but since most encounters involve the PCs on the active part (as in, they're the ones who want the other thing dead, while the other part is usually ok with just escaping with its life), I guess it loses some shine.

[Reverent-One]

Which takes care of everything except the part about not being able to trip. If they are in the process of getting up, a good attack should be able knock a leg/arm out and prevent a rise in the first place.


Or it does nothing as they just use their other limbs to continue to stand up. Honestly, a "they try to stand up, get tripped, try to stand up, get tripped" loop sounds more like something from a video game than something you'd see in real life.

[Barstro]

Or it does nothing as they just use their other limbs to continue to stand up. Honestly, a "they try to stand up, get tripped, try to stand up, get tripped" loop sounds more like something from a video game than something you'd see in real life.

Then we disagree on the ability of one person to rise from a prone position while another person is attacking that individual.

Hardly matters; RAW says no trip chance while rising.

[Reverent-One]

Then we disagree on the ability of one person to rise from a prone position while another person is attacking that individual.

Hardly matters; RAW says no trip chance while rising.

Sure RAW is open and shut, but panaikhan decided to brought up "realism", so I obliged him.

[Barstro]

... why is it so hard for a PC to get Pounce?? If it's because "then everyone would get it, silly" then there should've been designed some secondary option to full-attacks for melee to hit stuff hard.

But then everyone would almost always be doing full-attacks. Not having that ability forces one to use tactics. I'm of the opinion that too many classes already have access to too many abilities from other classes.

Maybe if PCs could get it as some part of an otherwise annoyingly weak and long Feat chain or had other restrictions on armor and weapon type.

[Larpus]

But then everyone would almost always be doing full-attacks. Not having that ability forces one to use tactics. I'm of the opinion that too many classes already have access to too many abilities from other classes.

Maybe if PCs could get it as some part of an otherwise annoyingly weak and long Feat chain or had other restrictions on armor and weapon type.
Not sure if that'd work at all.

I agree that not having full-attacks all the time makes the PCs think and all, but seeing how the non-magical classes are supposedly "melee experts" I think that they should gain access to Pounce or similar, I agree that it doesn't have to be early, but at around lvl10 or so they should (make it a feat with a +10 BAB requirement?).

[TwylyghT]

Synthesist seems like it could be insane in the right gestalt. I don't play gestalt, so I haven't given it much thought, but... it just feels like it should be. *shrug*


You know I'm sure as far as optimization goes it wouldn't be even near top of the class but a Synthesist 20 + Samurai(OA) 5/ Beastmaster 5/ Iaijutsu Master 10 with a huge humanoid eidolon with weapon training, skill focus(diplomacy) and armed with a huge katana, wakizashi, and throwing knives would be an effective attempt at playing the part of the Yojimbo Aeon from final fantasy.

[MeeposFire]

One of the big advantages to going bipedal is weapon use. That reach is then doubled for using a reach weapon. Quads have to spend extra to get arms+hands and get only half the benefit from the reach. If you are huge and have the reach benefit as well a quad would have 15 feet without a weapon 30 feet if they use a weapon (though that costs extra) while the bipedal uses a weapon and has a reach of 40 feet. You start getting to the point that once you are fully in battle you won't have to charge as you just make normal attacks due to your massive reach. And it can get higher.

[Barstro]

...You start getting to the point that once you are fully in battle you won't have to charge as you just make normal attacks due to your massive reach.

That is a point I hadn't considered.

One of the reasons that I initially preferred quadruped is that after level 9, with a pounce and Haste, I can make three bite/trip attacks (one at -5).

But I suppose that a Biped with Great Cleave and all sorts of reach can keep attacking everyone until it misses. Since that would just be a standard action, it can move max distance and still do that; no need for Pounce at all.

[panaikhan]

OK, couple of questions about a Synthesist and spells...

When fused, a Synthesist and his Eidolon cannot be targetted seperately - correct?
So what happens with healing? Summoners have access to a spell that heals Eidolons Only.
A Synthesist and his eidolon could have both taken damage... if healed 'normally' (i.e. by a cleric) does the Synthesist decide where the points go? Can he distribute them according to whimsy?

Enlarge Person. This spell states the recipient gains +2STR, -2DEX, -1AC, -1BAB (effectively) for being a size larger.
A 'large' Eidolon gets +8STR, +2DEX (I think - away from my books), +2AC, then the penalties for being large (-1AC, -1BAB)
Do I go with the spell? (i'm assuming so - it's how I'd rule as DM).

Saving throws. Summoners and Eidolons have different saving throw progressions. Does the Synthesist retain his own, or get the Eidolon's?

[Barstro]

When fused, a Synthesist and his Eidolon cannot be targetted seperately - correct?
So what happens with healing? Summoners have access to a spell that heals Eidolons Only.
A Synthesist and his eidolon could have both taken damage... if healed 'normally' (i.e. by a cleric) does the Synthesist decide where the points go? Can he distribute them according to whimsy?

The Eidolon is treated as just Temporary HPs. I think that the Synthesist can heal his Eidolon, but anyone else can only heal the Synthesist (but maybe only when the Eidolon is gone??).


Enlarge Person. This spell states the recipient gains +2STR, -2DEX, -1AC, -1BAB (effectively) for being a size larger.
A 'large' Eidolon gets +8STR, +2DEX (I think - away from my books), +2AC, then the penalties for being large (-1AC, -1BAB)
Do I go with the spell? (i'm assuming so - it's how I'd rule as DM).

By my reading, only the Synthesist can use Enlarge Person on HIS Eidolon. Certainly no other class can do it, and I'd argue that no other Synthesist can do it. I also think that, since there is no language about spell sharing, the Synthesist's spell can only effect the Synthesist or the Eidolon he's wearing. See my earlier post where I hypothesize that anyone else casting Enlarge Person can probably only enlarge the Synthesist, which could make him too large for the Eidolon, thus the Eidolon disappears.


Saving throws. Summoners and Eidolons have different saving throw progressions. Does the Synthesist retain his own, or get the Eidolon's?

I believe the Synthesist gets his own mental saving throws and the Eidolon's physical ones (for better or worse)

[panaikhan]

I'm sure it states that a summoner/synthesist can cast spells that effect himself and/or his eidolon, even if the spell doesn't effect outsiders.

[Barstro]

I'm sure it states that a summoner/synthesist can cast spells that effect himself and/or his eidolon, even if the spell doesn't effect outsiders.

Yes, it does. But I do not think that Summoner-A can use that to effect Summoner-B's Eidolon.

(if that is not what your statement was referring to, then I got lost somewhere)

[charcoalninja]

It's a standard wolf tactic (and has been used on my PC's in the past :smallfurious:)
My Eidolon's Bite attack (if successful) gets a free trip at the same value as the successful attack.
If the trip is successful, the opponent then provokes an AoO when thet try to stand up - which will be the bite (of course), which gets a free trip attempt if it hits...

Along with the bite are two primary claw attacks.
When my Eidolon is allowed a fourth attack, I'll start using my spear and have all the natural attacks as secondary (unless it's the trip loop above)

I'm a bit unsure about the whole ability / feat thing, because at 2nd level the Eidolon gains Evasion, not as a feat but as an ability.

That's not how AOOs work. Attacks of Opportunity inturupts (goes before) the action that triggered it, so your tripping bite attack would occur before the creature stands up. Thus you can't keep them permaprone. Bite would trip, he would try to rise you would AOO bite which trips the already prone guy, and then the creature would stand up freely.

[Larpus]

OK, couple of questions about a Synthesist and spells...

When fused, a Synthesist and his Eidolon cannot be targetted seperately - correct?
So what happens with healing? Summoners have access to a spell that heals Eidolons Only.

A Synthesist and his eidolon could have both taken damage... if healed 'normally' (i.e. by a cleric) does the Synthesist decide where the points go? Can he distribute them according to whimsy?
Since Cure X Wounds has a range of "creature touched", then anyone can cure the Synthesist, and the Synthesist can decide where the healing goes (he can do this anyway, by transfering his HP to the Eidolon and having himself healed, since temp HP usually can't be healed).

I believe that a Synthesist can use his heal Eidolon spell, either having it work as normal and heal his Eidolon as normal or having it affect him instead (going by 'temp HP can't be healed in normal ways') but use the above trick. My train of thought might not have a lot of RAW behind it, but I can't see how that one ability could make the Synthesist that much more powerful at all.


Enlarge Person. This spell states the recipient gains +2STR, -2DEX, -1AC, -1BAB (effectively) for being a size larger.
A 'large' Eidolon gets +8STR, +2DEX (I think - away from my books), +2AC, then the penalties for being large (-1AC, -1BAB)
Do I go with the spell? (i'm assuming so - it's how I'd rule as DM).
Since Enlarge Person has been tailored to enlarge...well, a person, my take is that the mentioned bonus is for humanoids (and possibly m-humanoids too) only, and maybe also be applied to other critters if the DM/caster are lazy to look for specific rules on enlarging that type of creature.

But such is not the Eidolon's case, as it has a very specific and easy to find rule on how enlarging works on it, so I believe that you follow the Eidolon rules for enlarging, not the spell's. After all, you're already doing something you normally wouldn't be able to (cast that on an outsider), so why would you follow the normal rules for this too?


Saving throws. Summoners and Eidolons have different saving throw progressions. Does the Synthesist retain his own, or get the Eidolon's?
My understanding is that they keep their base saves but use their Eidolon's Con and Dex when fused for Fort and Reflex.

[Barstro]

Since Cure X Wounds has a range of "creature touched", then anyone can cure the Synthesist, and the Synthesist can decide where the healing goes (he can do this anyway, by transfering his HP to the Eidolon and having himself healed, since temp HP usually can't be healed).

Forgot that Cure it could target non-persons.

But in reading Fused Link, Life Link, and Life Bond, I think that there is no choice. A Summoner doesn't decide how many HPs to give or take from the Eidolon, it is automatic when HP drops below 1 (and keeps it at 1).

So, a fused Synthesist can heal his Eidolon with Rejuvenate Eidolon, someone else can Cure the Eidolon b/c that is what is touched (or Cure the Synthesist if the Eidolon is away).

I think that the rule "Eidolon = (Temporary HP)" is more of a way to keep track of the HPs, and not a reason to prevent others from casting Cure.

But, I don't think that a rule that "the Synthesist gets to choose" breaks anything.

Note: But I also think that Mass CLW only has one effect on the Synthesist.

[Larpus]

Note: But I also think that Mass CLW only has one effect on the Synthesist.
Agreed, as they cannot be targeted separately and count as a dual typed but still single creature for all purposes.

[Paul H]

Hi

Back to the reach thing.

Lunge Feat allows you to extend your reach 5', but at a -2 penalty to AC

Thanks
Paul H

[Barstro]

Hi

Back to the reach thing.

Lunge Feat allows you to extend your reach 5', but at a -2 penalty to AC

And the Summoner's Handbook lists this as a great Feat to take. I consider it to be a waste of a Feat if the Eidolon has only one attack, since Reach costs only one point. But, now that I understand Reach works for only one attack per evolution, instead of all attacks of that type, Lunge might be worth it for multi-attack Eidolons.

[Starbuck_II]

Did anyone here read the new FAQ on Synthesists?
http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fz#v5748eaic9ob7



1. Summoner: Does a synthesist (page 80) keep any armor bonuses or other benefits from his armor when he is fused with his eidolon?

No. The eidolon is, in effect, the synthesist's armor, and any armor the synthesist wears does not function while the eidolon is present. Fortunately, this doesn't mean the synthesist has to remove his armor when wearing the eidolon, and when the eidolon is banished/dismissed/killed, the summoner's worn armor immediately begins functioning again.


2. Summoner: How does a synthesist (page 80) heal damage to his eidolon?

Because the eidolon gives the synthesist temporary hit points rather than having a separate pool of normal hit points, effects that cure hit points don't restore the eidolon's temporary hit points. This technically leaves you unable to heal the eidolon. To remedy this, effects that specifically restore hp to an eidolon (such as rejuvenate eidolon) restore temporary hit points to a synthesist's eidolon. This does mean those spells end up as a sort of must-have "spell tax" for synthesists, but the advantage of being a synthesist is your eidolon's hp are a buffer between you and damage, unlike a normal summoner who can be targeted separately from his eidolon.

Even the Fast Healing evolution, or other fast healing or regeneration effects, restore hit points rather than temporary hit points, so they heal the summoner, not the eidolon's temporary hit points.



3. Summoner: What happens when a synthesist (page 80) takes ability damage or drain while the eidolon is present?

The eidolon takes Str, Dex, and Con damage or drain, the summoner takes Int, Wis, or Cha damage or drain. If this bring's the eidolon's Str or Dex to 0, the fused summoner/eidolon is helpless (though he can still dismiss the eidolon). If this brings the eidolon's Con to 0, it dies and returns to its home plane. If the eidolon goes away (whether dismissed, banished, or killed), the summoner immediately begins using his own Str, Dex, and Con.

There is no "spillover" for extra ability damage or drain beyond what it takes to reduce the eidolon to 0; if an eidolon with Constitution 1 takes 3 points of Con damage and dies, the summoner doesn't take the "extra" 2 points of Con damage. However, ongoing effects (like continuing poison

Remember also that the eidolon does not heal naturally. Just like hit point damage, any ability damage or drain the eidolon has persists between when it is banished/dismissed/killed and when it is resummoned. The exception is an eidolon killed by Con damage (which, if resummoned, would still be at 0 Con and immediately die and vanish); in this situation, the resummoned eidolon is cured of 1 point of ability damage or drain so the amount of damage or drain is 1 less than its actual Constitution score, allowing it to live.

Effects that cure ability damage or drain work on the eidolon's ability scores when it is summoned.



4. Summoner: What happens when a synthesist (page 80) takes a penalty, suffers an affliction, or has an ongoing effect when the eidolon disappears?

These effects persist on the summoner after the eidolon is gone. For example, a ray of enfeeblement on the fused character continues to affect the summoner after the eidolon is gone, as would a bestow curse spell or acid arrow spell, as would continuing poison damage. These effects apply to the character as a whole, and just because the eidolon is gone doesn't mean the summoner is freed from the effect (ability damage is tracked separately, as described in another FAQ, because it is a separate game statistic that the summoner "borrows" from the eidolon). If the condition or effect ends (whether from its duration running out, being cured/negated/dispelled, and so on) while the eidolon is gone, it doesn't return when the eidolon is resummoned. This applies to beneficial effects as well as harmful ones--an invisible summoner isn't suddenly visible if his eidolon disappears, nor does he become invisible again if the duration ran out while the eidolon was gone.



5. Summoner: Can a synthesist (page 80) benefit from the Skilled evolution even though his eidolon doesn't have skills of its own? What about the Ability Score Increase evolution applied to a mental ability score?

If the synthesist's eidolon has the Skilled evolution, the synthesist gains the bonus to that skill.

If the synthesist applies the Increased Ability Score evolution to the eidolon's mental ability score, it has no effect on the synthesist because he uses his own mental ability scores.



6. Summoner: Does a synthesist (page 80) use his own Hit Dice or his eidolon's Hit Dice for evolutions based on Hit Dice, such as Breath Weapon and Web? What about his BAB for making attacks?

The synthesist uses the eidolon's Hit Dice for the effects of evolutions, not his summoner Hit Dice or his total Hit Dice.

When fused, use the eidolon's BAB instead of the summoner's class BAB, and add in BAB from other sources as normal. For example, a fighter 19/summoner 1 normally has a total BAB of +19 (+19 from fighter, +0 from summoner), and when fused with his eidolon this increases to +20 (+19 from fighter, +1 from the 1st-level eidolon).



7. Summoner: Can a synthesist (page 80) use spells on himself that don't affect outsiders, such as enlarge person?

No. The archetype says he counts as his type and as an outsider, whichever is worse, which means that the outsider type prevents the enlarge person from working because that spell only works on humanoids. Note that even the share spells class ability doesn't allow this to work because that ability only works on spells with "Target: you," and enlarge person is "Target: one humanoid creature" and thus does not qualify. (Example "Target: you" spells are blink, disguise self, and expeditious retreat.)




8. Summoner: Can a synthesist (page 80) make attacks from his own body (such as manufactured weapons, unarmed strikes, or natural attacks) and attacks from the fused eidolon in the same round?


Yes, but the fused character is still subject to the Maximum Attacks entry in the table for an eidolon of his level (unlike a regular summoner, this limit does include attacks made with weapons). For example, a 1st-level synthesist is limited to 3 attacks per round, whether those three are dagger/off-hand dagger/bite, dagger/bite/claw, dagger/claw/claw, and so on.

Remember also that the synthesist is still subject to the rules of combining manufactured weapon attacks and natural weapon attacks in the same round (in that the natural weapons are always considered secondary and therefore have a -5 attack penalty).


It sucks that you are limited to Max attacks of Eidolon for manufactored if you fuse.

Also Share Spells class feature does nothing now for Enlarge person (can't use on Eidolon).

[MeeposFire]

So they are making up rules as they go on now rather than use the rules that they actually made in the first place?

[Larpus]

The attack thing is quite weird indeed, I'd totally guessed that the answer would be "no you can't", since technically you're the Eidolon now, not sure if I like that or not.

The Enlarge Person bit sounds funny, after all makes you think why in hell it's in the Summoner's list then, but after re-reading, he is right, by RAW you can't use it (and apparently can't use it by RAI either now); this does however make a Summoner get his Eidolon Huge even riskier and potentially more useless since he can't Reduce it if needed.

Similarly, color me wrong, Eidolon's BAB does stack with other classes, so multiclassing is on the table (another weird move to be honest, a Synthesist with Pounce 3+ primary natural attacks and sneak attack or some other damage enhancer is a very, very scary thought.

Going to read the link now, but is there any mention about the gained Eidolon features on a Synthesist (such as Evasion,Multiattack, etc)? Though this has been answered by extension, since he mentioned Shared Spells, which the Synthesist wouldn't have if his Eidolon had no features.

[Barstro]

8. Summoner: Can a synthesist (page 80) make attacks from his own body (such as manufactured weapons, unarmed strikes, or natural attacks) and attacks from the fused eidolon in the same round?


Yes, but the fused character is still subject to the Maximum Attacks entry in the table for an eidolon of his level (unlike a regular summoner, this limit does include attacks made with weapons). For example, a 1st-level synthesist is limited to 3 attacks per round, whether those three are dagger/off-hand dagger/bite, dagger/bite/claw, dagger/claw/claw, and so on.

Remember also that the synthesist is still subject to the rules of combining manufactured weapon attacks and natural weapon attacks in the same round (in that the natural weapons are always considered secondary and therefore have a -5 attack penalty).


This is ridiculous. Now a pouncing Synthesist/Fighter can have an additional attack come out of the beast's belly? What if the Eidolon is Large? Do we need to decide which square the PC is in to determine if his weapon can actually hit?

This, and the whole BAB stacking seems broken. But, maybe those kinds of setups will fail due to MAD.



7. Summoner: Can a synthesist (page 80) use spells on himself that don't affect outsiders, such as enlarge person?

No. The archetype says he counts as his type and as an outsider, whichever is worse, which means that the outsider type prevents the enlarge person from working because that spell only works on humanoids. Note that even the share spells class ability doesn't allow this to work because that ability only works on spells with "Target: you," and enlarge person is "Target: one humanoid creature" and thus does not qualify. (Example "Target: you" spells are blink, disguise self, and expeditious retreat.)


This makes me think that the person who answered the FAQ didn't actually have anything to do with making the Summoner class in the first place.

Let's take a look at Share Spells
The summoner may cast a spell with a target of “you” on his eidolon (as a spell with a range of touch) instead of on himself. A summoner may cast spells on his eidolon even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the eidolon’s type (outsider). Spells cast in this way must come from the summoner spell list.

That ability contains three sentences with restrictions.
1) Target of "you" (which really means "Range: Personal")
2) Spells work on Eidolon even if they do not normally affect outsider
3) "Spells cast in this way must come from the summoner spell list."

#3 obviously covers both #1 and #2 due to the language "Spells cast in this way". Summoner/Wizards cannot cast restricted Wizard spells on the Eidolon. Makes Sense.

#1 is, I think, self explanatory.

#2 is self explanatory too; a spell than can normally only affect a humanoid can also affect an Eidolon.

But notice that #1 and #2 are separate sentences. To my statute-reading mind, that makes them separate ideas. So, Range: Personal spells can be cast on Eidolon (subject to #3), AND spells designed for a type other than outsider can be cast on the Eidolon (again, subject to #3).

Were that not the case, #1 and #2 could have simply been combined to read "The summoner may cast a spell with a target of “you” on his eidolon (as a spell with a range of touch) instead of on himself even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the eidolon’s type (outsider)".

Why did they make two sentences, then?

Here are the only Range: Personal spells that the Summoner has (that are not also Range: Touch); Alter Self, Contact Other Plane, Expeditious Retreat, Fire Shield, Glide, Overland Flight, Planar Adaptation, and See Invisibility, Shield, Spell Turning.

Notice that none of those spells cannot affect outsiders.

If fact, only two spells do not affect outsiders; Enlarge and Reduce person. Both of those are Range: Touch.

SUMMARY
The ONLY spells covered by #2 are not affected by #1. This means that if the FAQ is correct, #2 shouldn't even be listed as a restriction because there is no known spell that it refers to.

EDIT: "Blink" is mentioned as the type of spell that an Eidolon can get, but it isn't even a Summoner's spell.

MRR

BTW: if we want to read RAW literally to stupid conclusions; we can get a Huge Eidolon, use Alter Self on it to make it Medium, and it would still have its +8 STR for Huge, and an additional +2 STR for Alter Self.

And I pose one question. Since Enlarge Person is Range: Touch, does that mean that spellcasters cannot cast that spell on themselves?

[panaikhan]

This puts me at a dilemma.

After reading the book thoroughly, I am of the opinion that my Synthesist, even when fused and large, does not have reach (it actually states large eidolons only get reach if bipedal). I have been playing this wrong, and will go to my GM cap in hand and apologize (and not do it again).
After reading the FAQ, it seems I should not be able to go large to begin with?
I'm sure the group will not want to retcon the last complete session (and maybe much of the one before that) to put this oversight right, and I'm not sure I want to anyway.

[Larpus]

This puts me at a dilemma.

After reading the book thoroughly, I am of the opinion that my Synthesist, even when fused and large, does not have reach (it actually states large eidolons only get reach if bipedal). I have been playing this wrong, and will go to my GM cap in hand and apologize (and not do it again).
After reading the FAQ, it seems I should not be able to go large to begin with?
I'm sure the group will not want to retcon the last complete session (and maybe much of the one before that) to put this oversight right, and I'm not sure I want to anyway.
Well, as Barstro said (I had my suspicions, but didn't look at the spells), Summoners not being able to enlarge/reduce their Eidolon seems strange, after all it's one of the few (only?) spells (that don't affect outsiders) that would make sense to use at the Eidolon and the Summoner's list is tailored around having and supporting the Eidolon, so Enlarge/Reduce there without being usable on the Eidolon makes you wonder "ok, then why in hell is this even here?".

It's like a Fighter having Tower Shield Proficiency and then under Tower Shield you have "if you use this, you can't fight, move, or do anything at all, 'cus it's so heavy man".

My guess is that they realized that and Eidolon could actually get beefed up to gargantuan size and tried to patch it up maybe? Or the guy writing the FAQ was going way too RAW.

Anyway, yeah, large quad Eidolons don't get reach, it's strange, but balances out in that they have Pounce and bipeds don't. But you can grab the Reach evolution or the Lunge feat to have some reach.


This, and the whole BAB stacking seems broken. But, maybe those kinds of setups will fail due to MAD.
Actually, I think it's the exact opposite: a 1~2 level dip into Summoner Synthesist (bipedal) automatically nets you +2~4 armor (with no check penalty, so good for casters and rogue-likes), +1~2 BAB, +2 to all saves, 1d6 bite attack and 17/19 Str, 15/17 Dex and 13/15 Con; not to mention 10~20 extra HP.

A case can be made that you can't cast spells other than the Summoner's while fused, but it's still a great dip for nearly anyone, I can totally see Rogues doing this, so they can focus on mental stats but still have very good physicals for when things go medieval.

[stack]

The temporary HP thing seems strange to me. You are fused with a semi-living thing, but it can't heal? I know it says temporary HP, but it doesn't make sense conceptually. Did they just not want a half-caster to have a pile of HP?

[Barstro]

The temporary HP thing seems strange to me. You are fused with a semi-living thing, but it can't heal? I know it says temporary HP, but it doesn't make sense conceptually. Did they just not want a half-caster to have a pile of HP?

Well, it does heal, but only if the Synthesist casts the spell. I'm ok with that.

I'm NOT ok with the ruling for regeneration. But, that's without playtesting it, so for I know it might balance well.

[Barstro]

Actually, I think it's the exact opposite: a 1~2 level dip into Summoner Synthesist (bipedal) automatically nets you +2~4 armor (with no check penalty, so good for casters and rogue-likes), +1~2 BAB, 2 claws and 17/19 Str, 15/17 Dex and 13/15 Con; not to mention 10~20 extra HP.

A case can be made that you can't cast spells other than the Summoner's while fused, but it's still a great dip for nearly anyone, I can totally see Rogues doing this, so they can focus on mental stats but still have very good physicals for when things go medieval.

I was thinking of Fighter when I made my comment on MAD. But you are correct, this ruling works great for Rogues. It is also a perfect example of why I think that a Synthesist wearing his Eidolon should fight with only the Eidolon's BAB. Notice that the rule says "The synthesist uses the eidolon’s base attack bonus". It does not state that the Synthesist gets to add the BAB to his own.

[Larpus]

I was thinking of Fighter when I made my comment on MAD. But you are correct, this ruling works great for Rogues. It is also a perfect example of why I think that a Synthesist wearing his Eidolon should fight with only the Eidolon's BAB. Notice that the rule says "The synthesist uses the eidolon’s base attack bonus". It does not state that the Synthesist gets to add the BAB to his own.
I agree that under normal conditions it is rather sub-optimal for a Fighter, however to some other melee classes than can get a kick out of their mental stats it's worth considering (so you put your stat increases elsewhere).

Hell, if you dip your nacho for a little longer and go for lvl5 you get the armor bonus from a half-plate (but no penalty), 40 extra HP (30 if Barbarian), your physicals look impressive at something like 24/18/18 str/dex/con, you have Darkvision, Evasion, +2 to all saves and, on top of it all, you cast as a lvl5 Summoner, which among other things allows you to Haste yourself up for 10 rounds/day. Also, if you want to you can forego some physical stats and grab DR 5/alignment.

The drawback? 1 BAB (supposing your base class is full BAB) and 5 levels of class features.

Maybe not incredibly broken, but doesn't look half bad either, especially for straight meleers.

[Prime32]

I was thinking of Fighter when I made my comment on MAD. But you are correct, this ruling works great for Rogues. It is also a perfect example of why I think that a Synthesist wearing his Eidolon should fight with only the Eidolon's BAB. Notice that the rule says "The synthesist uses the eidolon’s base attack bonus". It does not state that the Synthesist gets to add the BAB to his own.According to Paizo, replacing BAB always means replacing the BAB of one class, even if the text of the ability contradicts that.

[stack]

I may have missed it, but has anyone answered the question about the eidolon's specials? (Darkvision, evasion, ability score increase, etc)

[Drothmal]

I don't see it has been answered, but it does seem that you do get them while fused (please correct me if I'm wrong)


I'm just baffled by the ruling that you can stack the BAB while fused. It really goes against the PF policy of "one class is usually better than multiclass"

@Larpus: Totally agree, it is ridiculous

Now, to add more craziness, we have Ultimate Combat and the Ninja!!! What do you mean I have ridiculous physical stats even if I dumped everything into CHA for more spells and ki pool (which I don't think has any trouble with the merged form)? And look! I'm not squishy anymore! And I have SKILLZ! And Sneak Attack!

I'm sure that there are other incredible combinations, but the synergy of summoner and ninja seemed ridiculous to me...


EDIT: And is it me or Gnome is just perfect for these rulings?

[Starbuck_II]

I don't see it has been answered, but it does seem that you do get them while fused (please correct me if I'm wrong)


I'm just baffled by the ruling that you can stack the BAB while fused. It really goes against the PF policy of "one class is usually better than multiclass"

@Larpus: Totally agree, it is ridiculous

Now, to add more craziness, we have Ultimate Combat and the Ninja!!! What do you mean I have ridiculous physical stats even if I dumped everything into CHA for more spells and ki pool (which I don't think has any trouble with the merged form)? And look! I'm not squishy anymore! And I have SKILLZ! And Sneak Attack!

I'm sure that there are other incredible combinations, but the synergy of summoner and ninja seemed ridiculous to me...

Yeah, but summoner/Ninja has a max of 3 attacks at 1st level summoner (till eidolon would have more, that is most you can use).

So, you may be a little Ninja, but you'd have to be mostly Synthesist (remember BAB attacks are limited by max too).

[Larpus]

Yeah, but summoner/Ninja has a max of 3 attacks at 1st level summoner (till eidolon would have more, that is most you can use).

So, you may be a little Ninja, but you'd have to be mostly Synthesist (remember BAB attacks are limited by max too).
Yeah, but unless ninja has full BAB, 3 attacks is all he can get in a single round anyway.

[Drothmal]

I think the ninja is meant as an alternative to rogue, so it has 3/4

Probably a 4 synthesist/16 ninja would be the way to go. The main thing is that at level 3 you make a summoner 1/ninja 2 and have spells, ki, sneak attack, good mental stats, decent physic stats, tons of skills, extra HP and up to 3 attacks.

That sounds pretty devastating to me

[MeeposFire]

Once you get the fast healing you can deal damage to your eidolon to bring it below 0 and then use your own full HP to feed its THP back up and then fast heal yourself back up to full after.

[panaikhan]

EDIT: And is it me or Gnome is just perfect for these rulings?

I would have gone Gnome, but for two reasons:
1) there was already a Gnome in my party (the Alchemist)
2) I wanted to go the 'pass for human (child)' route that Halflings can get.
I found the idea of a small 'human child' becoming an ass-kicking monster just too hilarious to pass up.