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Cipher Stars
2011-07-08, 07:40 AM
The Stubborn Fighter
http://i591.photobucket.com/albums/ss360/lexal/Cutie20Brawler_29.jpg
{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special

1st|+1|+2|+1|+2|Disbelieve , Bonus Feat

2nd|+2|+3|+1|+3|Shun the Foolish, Bonus feat

3rd|+3|+3|+2|+3|

4th|+4|+4|+2|+4|Bonus feat

5th|+5|+4|+3|+4|Disbelieve

6th|+6/+1|+5|+3|+5|Bonus feat

7th|+7/+2|+5|+3|+5|

8th|+8/+3|+6|+4|+6|Bonus feat

9th|+9/+4|+6|+4|+6|

10th|+10/+5|+7|+5|+7|Disbelieve , Bonus feat, Convincing

11th|+11/+6/+1|+7|+5|+7|

12th|+12/+7/+2|+8|+6|+8|Bonus feat

13th|+13/+8/+3|+8|+6|+8|

14th|+14/+9/+4|+9|+6|+9|Bonus feat

15th|+15/+10/+5|+9|+7|+9|Disbelieve

16th|+16/+11/+6/+1|+10|+7|+10|Bonus feat

17th|+17/+12/+7/+2|+10|+8|+10|

18th|+18/+13/+8/+3|+11|+8|+11|Bonus feat

19th|+19/+14/+9/+4|+11|+8|+11|

20th|+20/+15/+10/+5|+12|+9|+12|Disbelieve , Bonus feat, Smite the Foolish

[/table]
Alignment: Any
Hit Die: 1d10

Class Skills:
Class Skills are... Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Ride (Dex), Swim (Str).
Skill Points at 1st Level: (2 + Int modifier) 4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 2 + Int modifier

Class Features:
All of the following are class features of the fighter.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, medium, and light) and shields (including tower shields).
However, they cannot wield magic items.

Bonus Feats: At 1st level, a fighter gets a bonus combat-oriented feat in addition to the feat that any 1st-level character gets and the bonus feat granted to a human character. The fighter gains an additional bonus feat at 2nd level and every two fighter levels thereafter (4th, 6th, 8th, 10th, 12th, 14th, 16th, 18th, and 20th). These bonus feats must be drawn from the feats noted as fighter bonus feats. A fighter must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat, including ability score and base attack bonus minimums.

These bonus feats are in addition to the feat that a character of any class gets from advancing levels. A fighter is not limited to the list of fighter bonus feats when choosing these feats.

Disbelieve:
The Stubborn fighter so strongly believes that Magic does not exist, Or perhaps even comes from a world of no magic, That the fighter is unaffected by it.

1st: Ignore 0-2nd level spells, or spell-like abilities.
5th: Ignore 0-3rd level spells, or spell-like abilities. All items have an effective +1 bonus in your possession. Such as armor, or swords, or even a butterknife.
10th: Ignore 0-5th level spells, or spell-like abilities. All items have an effective +2 bonus in your possession. Such as armor, or swords, or even a butterknife.
15th: Ignore 0-7th level spells, or spell-like abilities. All items have an effective +3 bonus in your possession. Such as armor, or swords, or even a butterknife.
20th: Ignore 0-9th level spells, or spell-like abilities. All items have an effective +4 bonus in your possession. Such as armor, or swords, or even a butterknife.

The fighter is immune to listed spell levels, and ignores they're effects even if it normally does not allow spell resistance/immunity. A Transformed wizard would not carry benefits when attacking the Stubborn fighter, but would still retain any defense himself when the Fighter attacks back. A Summoned monster is tied by magic, and can't effect the Fighter. The fighter sees these things as nothing but hoaxes, and trickery attempting to control the minds of the simpletons.
A Magic sword is treated as a Normal sword if the enhancement bonus is not more then the level the Fighter would ignore, in which case its subtracted.

In addition, she gets a Spell Resistance equal to her class levels + Constitution modifier +5

The Fighter cannot remove or take down her Disbelief, As such she cannot benefit from healing, or similar positive effects.
To compensate, the Fighter heals faster then normal. Healing character level +con modifier an hour. And con mod worth of ability damage per day.


Shun the Foolish:
The Stubborn Fighter gains a bonus to attack and damage rolls equal to the highest spell level or effective spell level the target can cast.
Example: A Stubborn fighter against a foe that can cast Level 5 spells, gets a +5 to attack and damage rolls.


Convincing:
The Stubborn Fighter can cause the subject to doubt the existence of they're own spells. They loose 1 spell per point they fail a will save DC= 10+Fighter's charisma modifier+Subjects highest spell level.
To use this is a free action. Once a victim saves, they are immune for 24 hours or until they forget the event, which ever is sooner. a Fighter can use this at will.
Example: Before attacking, the Stubborn Fighter comments that the Sorcerers finger-twinkling is hardly going to help as the Sorcerers fireball does nothing to even hint that the Fighter took any effect what so ever. The Sorcerer questions the reality of what may be happening, and his mind falls to chaos. (Failed will save) and looses four spells from his highest level to lowest.

Smite the Foolish:
The Stubborn fighter now gains the above bonuses for Shun to they're Attack bonus. But instead of gaining the damage bonus, they instead deal an extra 1d4 damage for each spell the subject can cast, or every spell-like ability they can use. (If only one spell-like ability, instead deal 1d6 per times they can use it)
The fighter can use this once per day +1 per 2 Cha mod.
Example: A High level Wizard meets a Stubborn Fighter, The Stubborn fighter Smites the Wizard. Who takes Fighters attack as normal, but also 36d4 extra damage from her Smite attack. Because the Wizard has 4 spell slots, from nine spell levels. 9x4=36.

Veklim
2011-07-08, 07:58 AM
Some of this needs rewording or just expanding a bit, an example or two may not go amiss, but as a whole, this is funky. It reminds me more than a bit of the forsaker, whereas it doesn't use strange pseudo-anti-magical abilities, it does strike straight back at the wizard in a way that's VERY hard to fight against with magic. Doesn't help against buffed opponents, doesn't help against level 9 spells, but it does everything else....nice.

Smite the foolish, as worded, could be more painful to a wizard, the bigger his spellbook is, unless of course it's spells/day from all levels, in which case sorcerers would actually have more pain. Not sure if that's exactly what you're after, but either way, it does one helluva lot of damage to a high end caster, and for this, I am highly amused.

You may wish to look at the AC problem a little, you cover the weapon troubles with disbelieve, but if you're stuck with nothing but mundane armour then levels 12+ are gonna get progressively deadlier with each set of encounters.

Still disappointed in the 2+int skills and the almost non-existant list, but those are fighter problems, not yours I guess! :smallbiggrin:

Dryad
2011-07-08, 08:02 AM
Disbelieve:
The Stubborn fighter so strongly believes that Magic does not exist, Or perhaps even comes from a world of no magic, That the fighter is unaffected by it.
1st: Ignore 0-1st level spells, or spell-like abilities. All weapons have an effective +1 bonus in your possession.
5th: Ignore 0-2nd level spells, or spell-like abilities. All weapons have an effective +2 bonus in your possession.
10th: Ignore 0-4th level spells, or spell-like abilities. All weapons have an effective +3 bonus in your possession.
15th: Ignore 0-6th level spells, or spell-like abilities. All weapons have an effective +4 bonus in your possession.
20th: Ignore 0-8th level spells, or spell-like abilities. All weapons have an effective +5 bonus in your possession.
In addition, she gets a Spell Resistance equal to 15 + her class levels.

This.... Is a bit much, if you ask me. SR 15+lvl is a little too high, but simply ignoring spells altogether is a bit too good.
It can also be a bit chaotic. I mean: Does this character ignore terrain alteration spells? Does this character ignore summoned creatures? Manny undead were created through a spell; does this character ignore all undead except for ghosts and vampires?
And if not, where do you draw the line? A fireball effectively conjures a great ball of fire. Even if you ignore the spell, does the fire (and the explosion) still effect you? And if so, did you effectively ignore the spell?

Veklim
2011-07-08, 08:09 AM
@ Dryad, yes it is a bit much, and there's teething problems to sort out, but as I see this, the troubles created by not having ANYTHING magical on you EVER have to be weighed up with some pretty damned amazing abilities to give your character any chance at all of surviving the game at later levels. The spell levels you gain immunity to aren't quite as fast as the spell levels a fullcaster gets access to at the same levels, so you're always vulnerable (excepting the possibly over-strung SR) to their top level spells.

Things which have been made with magic (as per your examples) may well need addressing though, they could be problematic.

Cipher Stars
2011-07-08, 08:22 AM
Drow, Magic creatures, have SR 11+ character level. I don't think its problematic at all for a character who completely disbelieves magic and unlike the Drow, cannot use magic themselves, to be able to have a 15+ Class level spell resistance.

Otherwise I think I finished, and most/all of whats already been said is fix'd, at least a bit.

Merk
2011-07-08, 09:02 AM
I think SR 999999999 + Level would be appropriate. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlQR8OPY9cU&feature=related)

Some ideas:

Special options for using mundane equipment other than weapons or armor.
An intimidation-based ability that activates when you disbelieve a spell.
Mage Slayer line hardwired into class abilities.
Limited ability to dispel or generate AMFs.

Cipher Stars
2011-07-08, 09:23 AM
I think SR 999999999 + Level would be appropriate. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlQR8OPY9cU&feature=related)

Some ideas:

Special options for using mundane equipment other than weapons or armor.

?


An intimidation-based ability that activates when you disbelieve a spell.

Hm... I might.


Mage Slayer line hardwired into class abilities.

as in the Feats? I'm not familiar with them. Something about not letting casters cast defensively?


Limited ability to dispel or generate AMFs.

To magical.

Merk
2011-07-08, 09:31 AM
as in the Feats? I'm not familiar with them. Something about not letting casters cast defensively?

The base feat in the chain does roughly that. Pierce Magical Protection and Pierce Magical Concealment, later in the chain, let you overcome magic-based AC and other protections like Blur

Cipher Stars
2011-07-08, 09:39 AM
The base feat in the chain does roughly that. Pierce Magical Protection and Pierce Magical Concealment, later in the chain, let you overcome magic-based AC and other protections like Blur

They're already unaffected by things like Blur, or Displacement. Things like Mage Armor are gone as well, but things creating a real change in them such as Polymorph, Iron Body, Bulls Strength ect are still in effect :/

Epsilon Rose
2011-07-08, 11:07 AM
I'd like to point out a few problems:

How does this class deal with flying enemies?
How does this class get healing?
What's to stop a mage from using instantaneous effects (by the time he gets to it wall of iron is just a wall made out of iron)?
What bonuses are you talking about in reference to the undead?
How does Smite the Foolish work with an at-will ability?

NeoSeraphi
2011-07-08, 12:26 PM
Just a bit of suggested rewording: Convincing is a free action that is usable at will, and you have infinite free actions per round.

See the problem? I suggest you make it usable at-will, as a free action, but only once per round.

DiBastet
2011-07-08, 12:41 PM
I think SR 999999999 + Level would be appropriate. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlQR8OPY9cU&feature=related)

Over 9000 SR!

Fixed for you.

Salbazier
2011-07-08, 01:02 PM
Cute picture :3

Interesting class. Hmm, constructive.. Why they got enhancement bonus if they are unbelieving in magic. I got the meta reason but not in-world reason why disbelieving magic makes your equipment stronger.

I echo the opinions above on how this class can't get some nifty utilities granted by magic items. Perhaps grant them some self-healing/healing boost ability at least?

Veklim
2011-07-08, 01:42 PM
I would seriously think about referencing the old Forsaker PrC (Masters of the Wild, pg.57) for a little insight, it uses DR and fast healing as well as SR along a progression.


Interesting class. Hmm, constructive.. Why they got enhancement bonus if they are unbelieving in magic. I got the meta reason but not in-world reason why disbelieving magic makes your equipment stronger.
I'd say it's merely his unshakeable belief in the mundane, and his own mastery of that belief.

Cipher Stars
2011-07-08, 03:43 PM
Just a bit of suggested rewording: Convincing is a free action that is usable at will, and you have infinite free actions per round.

See the problem? I suggest you make it usable at-will, as a free action, but only once per round.
As stated, Free actions are governed by the DM and common sense of the player. Its obviously, thanks to the example, a Spoken action. One or two are really going to be the limit.

Fast Healing/DR. Thats all fancy magic-people stuff.
The only reason they get immunities and SR is due to the pure normal-ness of them.

Epsilon Rose
2011-07-08, 04:11 PM
Fast Healing/DR. Thats all fancy magic-people stuff.

If that's the case, I'm afraid this class will be near unplayable or at the very least a major drag on the rest of the party. While everyone else can simply heal up after a fight in minutes if not seconds this character is looking at a minimum of days for natural healing to be effective. It might actually be worse than the wizards 15 minute workday since it's going to happen almost every encounter and doesn't come with the benefit of being able to hide in magical demi-planes while recovering (not that strategy is necessarily the best thing for a game).

Cipher Stars
2011-07-08, 04:16 PM
If that's the case, I'm afraid this class will be near unplayable or at the very least a major drag on the rest of the party. While everyone else can simply heal up after a fight in minutes if not seconds this character is looking at a minimum of days for natural healing to be effective. It might actually be worse than the wizards 15 minute workday since it's going to happen almost every encounter and doesn't come with the benefit of being able to hide in magical demi-planes while recovering (not that strategy is necessarily the best thing for a game).

accept for the fact that they can simply walk into mordor yes, I'm sure they're totally useless /sarcasm.

Epsilon Rose
2011-07-08, 04:27 PM
Yes, they can walk into mordor, assuming they can get past the physical gate. The problem is they will take damage doing that, because the orkish (or whatever they are) hordes will have mundane weapons and some will hit. That means they're liable to be low on health and in enemy territory. Most PCs would just heal at that point, but they have no mechanic for healing that doesn't take days meaning they can't advance or accomplish much in the way of goals.

As for how useful they are in other situations... There's nothing saying that a wizard has to attack them or even fight them. Any mage could just fly up out of their reach and target the rest of the party.

Realms of Chaos
2011-07-08, 05:32 PM
Odd...

I actually made a class kind of like this awhile ago, albeit with mid BAB.

You may want to see the class here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=117233) as I think that the neutralization class feature I used covers pretty much everything that you want (other than not being able to percieve magic) and can fit into the odd levels of this class (to stop dead levels).

Also, how does the stubborn fighter fail to recognize magic is there even when it is high level enough to overcome their defenses. Is a level 20 stubborn fighter going to get hit by a Prismatic Sphere (which is completely possible as disbelieve doesn't apply against 9th level spells) and just scream "Palor's Grace! Why am I on fire? Why can't I pass this line? Somebody help me. I'm scared."

Hiro Protagonest
2011-07-08, 05:43 PM
Odd...

I actually made a class kind of like this awhile ago, albeit with mid BAB.

You may want to see the class here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=117233) as I think that the neutralization class feature I used covers pretty much everything that you want (other than not being able to percieve magic) and can fit into the odd levels of this class (to stop dead levels).

Also, how does the stubborn fighter fail to recognize magic is there even when it is high level enough to overcome their defenses. Is a level 20 stubborn fighter going to get hit by a Prismatic Sphere (which is completely possible as disbelieve doesn't apply against 9th level spells) and just scream "Palor's Grace! Why am I on fire? Why can't I pass this line? Somebody help me. I'm scared."

Yeah, what's he gonna say when those fake fireballs (meteor swarm) actually do something to him? Or when the wizard he's facing inexplicably turns invisible and gets better at combat (greater invisibility+Tenser's transformation)?

Also, the only real use of this is to ignore illusions and blasty spells. Evocation is the weakest school anyway, and any wizard worth his intelligence score is going to switch to summons and buffs when the guy shakes off all his spells. How's the fighter gonna take that?

Epsilon Rose
2011-07-08, 06:00 PM
He's going to ignore the summons and, presumably, the illusions. The better question is what happens when the wizard turns to stone shape and buries him alive or just starts dropping rocks with wall of stone.

Cipher Stars
2011-07-08, 06:34 PM
He's going to ignore the summons and, presumably, the illusions. The better question is what happens when the wizard turns to stone shape and buries him alive[Magic] or just starts dropping rocks with wall of stone[Magic].


It needs to be really indirect. As in... throw something real using magic. Or buff yourself to stick him with a sword. (And with 10/5 vs 20/15/10/5 I'm voting for the Fighter)

When he Does perceive magic, he tries to rationalize it. "Did he throw an explosive at me?" ect.

Hiro Protagonest
2011-07-08, 06:38 PM
It needs to be really indirect. As in... throw something real using magic. Or buff yourself to stick him with a sword. (And with 10/5 vs 20/15/10/5 I'm voting for the Fighter)

When he Does perceive magic, he tries to rationalize it. "Did he throw an explosive at me?" ect.

So the orb spells and Melf's acid arrow work against him? I also don't get why summoned creatures wouldn't work.

Also, I want to see him try to rationalize invisibility and teleport, when he sees the guy disappear or appear out of nowhere.

Oh, and wizard gets full BAB with a 6th level spell.

Cipher Stars
2011-07-08, 06:42 PM
So the orb spells and Melf's acid arrow work against him? I also don't get why summoned creatures wouldn't work.

Also, I want to see him try to rationalize invisibility and teleport, when he sees the guy disappear or appear out of nowhere.

Oh, and wizard gets full BAB with a 6th level spell.

he. ignores. magic. Why would an orb SPELL or Melf's acid arrow even show in his eyes?

Ghost, hallucination, wizard was never really there, hes going blind, he missed something and the wizard... is behind him! ect.

I think I should mention Metamagic doesn't raise the effective spell level when comparing to Disbelieve.

Epsilon Rose
2011-07-08, 06:43 PM
Divine power makes it 20/15/10/5 vs 20/15/10/5. And stone shape (or something similar) is completely indirect. You don't effect him at all, you effect some stone. Either removing it from under his feet or cutting an unfortunately large section of the ceiling out and letting gravity drop it on him. In fact a rock to mud on a ceiling might be extra fatal to him since it's only in it's mud form thanks to magic.

Dryad
2011-07-08, 06:45 PM
It's true that Drow receive a 11+HD SR, but Drow have an exceptionally high SR to begin with. An equal lvl caster would only have a 50% chance (not including spell penetration) of succeeding on a Drow. Monks gain 11+lvl SR (If I'm not mistaken), and that is also very powerful.
Most creatures that gain SR only gain 5+HD, or, indeed, 11+HD for exceptionally glib ones.

Urpriest
2011-07-08, 06:51 PM
he. ignores. magic. Why would an orb SPELL or Melf's acid arrow even show in his eyes?

Ghost, hallucination, wizard was never really there, hes going blind, he missed something and the wizard... is behind him! ect.

I think I should mention Metamagic doesn't raise the effective spell level when comparing to Disbelieve.

The orbs magically conjure a blob of nonmagical energy and hurl it at somebody. How is that any different from using Telekinesis, which you explicitly call out as working?

You can't make a game mechanical class without game mechanical language. Your concepts of direct and indirect have no useful definitions. You need to rephrase the class features in terms of actual game terms.

Hiro Protagonest
2011-07-08, 07:01 PM
The orbs magically conjure a blob of nonmagical energy and hurl it at somebody. How is that any different from using Telekinesis, which you explicitly call out as working?

This. Orbs, Melf's acid arrow, and summoned creatures were conjured by magic, they're not actually magic themselves (unless you consider the fighter to be immune to denizens of other planes), that's why they're in the conjuration school.

Shadow Lord
2011-07-08, 07:04 PM
Also, alot of magic doesn't actually use magic. They just use it to summon stuff. Fireball? You're using magic to create fire and force which give it shape, direction, and such. There are actually relatively few spells which actually use magic for the effect, not just creating the effect.

Hiro Protagonest
2011-07-08, 07:14 PM
Also, alot of magic doesn't actually use magic. They just use it to summon stuff. Fireball? You're using magic to create fire and force which give it shape, direction, and such. There are actually relatively few spells which actually use magic for the effect, not just creating the effect.

Fireball is magic. It allows SR. :smallconfused:

I assume that anything from evocation is made of magic, not conjured out of nowhere. Conjuring is for conjuration.

Shadow Lord
2011-07-08, 07:22 PM
Fireball is magic. It allows SR. :smallconfused:

I assume that anything from evocation is made of magic, not conjured out of nowhere. Conjuring is for conjuration.

'Eh, whatever floats your boat. I'd say that it's magic insofar as magic gives it shape and compresses it. But then again, I never use Vancian magic, so I guess you're in the right.

Salbazier
2011-07-08, 07:28 PM
Fast Healing/DR. Thats all fancy magic-people stuff.
The only reason they get immunities and SR is due to the pure normal-ness of them.

I'm not well-versed in TOB but I'm pretty sure there's some [ex] manuver that grant DR and healing without magical baggage (beyond the name blade magic). Barbarian is not magical as well and he got DR. Faster healing feat is not magical either. This class heal without magic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187927). I'm sure there's tons of other non-magical healing/survivability aid out there.

Cipher Stars
2011-07-08, 07:33 PM
I'm not well-versed in TOB but I'm pretty sure there's some [ex] manuver that grant DR and healing without magical baggage (beyond the name blade magic). Barbarian is not magical as well and he got DR. Faster healing feat is not magical either. This class heal without magic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187927). I'm sure there's tons of other non-magical healing/survivability aid out there.


Very well. I'll see what I can do.

Hiro Protagonest
2011-07-09, 01:14 AM
Ghost, hallucination, wizard was never really there, hes going blind, he missed something and the wizard... is behind him! ect.

I have a feeling that this character will go crazy very quickly if he keeps denying magic.

Epsilon Rose
2011-07-09, 01:28 AM
I have a feeling that in order to do this sort of thing (espesially in a high magic setting like end they'd have to start crazy (and I do mean that in the medical sense).

Also, I just realized there's nothing to keep them from multi-classing with a casting class. And I'm not sure if that makes things more or less sensical.

Cipher Stars
2011-07-09, 07:57 AM
I have a feeling that in order to do this sort of thing (espesially in a high magic setting like end they'd have to start crazy (and I do mean that in the medical sense).

Also, I just realized there's nothing to keep them from multi-classing with a casting class. And I'm not sure if that makes things more or less sensical.

In a raw translation that should be the only logical conclusion, they'd even ignore they're own spells into nonexistence, having no effect. Technically you'd have the spells. but are unable to cast them.
( Try doing a Psionic class instead :smallwink: )

Epsilon Rose
2011-07-09, 09:04 AM
In a raw translation that should be the only logical conclusion, they'd even ignore they're own spells into nonexistence, having no effect. Technically you'd have the spells. but are unable to cast them.
( Try doing a Psionic class instead :smallwink: )

No. You're confuseing raw and raised. There's nothing that says you can't prepare or cast spells, just that they can't effect you.

Cipher Stars
2011-07-09, 09:08 AM
No. You're confuseing raw and raised. There's nothing that says you can't prepare or cast spells, just that they can't effect you.


And channeling magic through your body doesn't effect you how. <-- note t3h period, tis a rhetorical question.

Epsilon Rose
2011-07-09, 09:21 AM
And channeling magic through your body doesn't effect you how. <-- note t3h period, tis a rhetorical question.

Unfortunately it has an answer. Namely theurgy, or any other form of magic that relies on manipulating an external force (like any magic from faerune). They just wouldn't be able to buff themselves or, apparently, see their own summons.

Cipher Stars
2011-07-09, 09:30 AM
Unfortunately it has an answer. Namely theurgy, or any other form of magic that relies on manipulating an external force (like any magic from faerune). They just wouldn't be able to buff themselves or, apparently, see their own summons.


It still requires your interaction, which the Fighter is incapable of.

super dark33
2011-07-09, 09:35 AM
can he ignore the orb spell line?

Epsilon Rose
2011-07-09, 09:38 AM
It still requires your interaction, which the Fighter is incapable of.

You can sculpt with disintegrate just as well as stone shape.
That is, fighters can and do interact with magic, they cause it to stop, so while there casting might look different they still could do...

Ah. You seem to have changed how they work while I wasn't looking. How are they ignoring mundane falling rocks and buffs on other people now?
Never mind. At this point as a DM I'd ban them.

Zombimode
2011-07-09, 09:44 AM
I dont get this. Lets ignore the "he must be the most irrational person ever"-thing for now.
So this guy doesnt believe in magic. And this makes him somehow more or less immune to it? What?
A mindless creature doesnt even have a notion of magic (being mindless and all...), but that doesnt make it resisntant to it. Why would a state of mind within an individual creature change the way how external forces interact with it?
Someone could doubt gravity as much as he want, he would still fall of the cliff.

Cipher Stars
2011-07-09, 09:49 AM
Disbelieve:
The Stubborn fighter so strongly believes that Magic does not exist, Or perhaps even comes from a world of no magic, That the fighter is unaffected by it.

1st: Ignore 0-2nd level spells, or spell-like abilities. All items have an effective +1 bonus in your possession if applicable. Such as armor, or swords, or even a butterknife.
5th: Ignore 0-3rd level spells, or spell-like abilities. All items have an effective +2 bonus in your possession. Such as armor, or swords, or even a butterknife.
10th: Ignore 0-5th level spells, or spell-like abilities. All items have an effective +3 bonus in your possession. Such as armor, or swords, or even a butterknife.
15th: Ignore 0-7th level spells, or spell-like abilities. All items have an effective +4 bonus in your possession. Such as armor, or swords, or even a butterknife.
20th: Ignore 0-9th level spells, or spell-like abilities. All items have an effective +5 bonus in your possession. Such as armor, or swords, or even a butterknife.

The fighter ignores, completely, all magic or magic inspired effects with an equivalent level equal to shown above. Rocks that fell from the ceiling due to a magical explosion, would be ignored. A summoned undead, would be ignored. Even a Polymorph would be ignored. No magic effects the Stubborn Fighter. A Wizard who through magic gained full BAB and +10 STR or something would Not have full BAB or +STR when attacking the Fighter.
A Magic sword is treated as a Normal sword if the enhancement bonus is not more then the level the Fighter would ignore. (So its not that the Fighter chooses not to wield magic, its that they can't). An effective +10 weapon is treated instead as a +2 weapon in the Fighters hand, or as normal in the hands of someone else against her.

In addition, she gets a Spell Resistance equal to 15 + her class levels.

. .

Ban them? lol. This was never intended to be a serious class. unlike other ignored works of mine. meanwhile this mostly joke of a class is stealing all the attention :smallfrown:

Keinnicht
2011-07-09, 10:34 AM
Yeah...This class' spell immunity by itself is better than anything you can do WITH magic. Even a permanent, non-dispellable globe of invulnerability doesn't even come close to matching that.

Not to mention the fact that the character becomes immune to them exactly when casters of equal level would be able to cast them. I assume it also applies to positive effects like healing and buffs, but nonetheless, that hardly compensates for blanket immunity to spells up to 9th level.

I'd suggest giving them SR 15+Class Level, which they cannot turn off.

Keinnicht
2011-07-09, 10:36 AM
Yeah...This class' spell immunity by itself is better than anything you can do WITH magic. Even a permanent, non-dispellable globe of invulnerability doesn't even come close to matching that.

Not to mention the fact that the character becomes immune to them exactly when casters of equal level would be able to cast them. I assume it also applies to positive effects like healing and buffs, but nonetheless, that hardly compensates for blanket immunity to spells up to 9th level.

I'd suggest giving them SR 15+Class Level, which they cannot turn off.

Also the enhancement bonus thing should have some combination of these limits:

1: It should not start at first level
2: It should cost some GP or XP to activate, similar to the way a Kensai can imbue their weapons. Keep in mind that no magic has to actually occur, you could just say the ingredients are necessary to meditate or otherwise "attune" yourself with the weapon.

Keinnicht
2011-07-09, 10:44 AM
As stated, Free actions are governed by the DM and common sense of the player. Its obviously, thanks to the example, a Spoken action. One or two are really going to be the limit.

Fast Healing/DR. Thats all fancy magic-people stuff.
The only reason they get immunities and SR is due to the pure normal-ness of them.

If not fast healing, you could at least give them fastER healing, where they heal Level+Con every hour instead of every day of rest. Otherwise the character is going to be stuck taking 3 or 4 days of downtime regularly in the middle of a dungeon crawl.

Also DR is not magical. A Barbarian's DR is due to the toughness of their skin, not magic.


he. ignores. magic. Why would an orb SPELL or Melf's acid arrow even show in his eyes?
.

Because those are not magic. The magic is only present for the brief second it creates the object in question. Melf's Acid Arrow IS an arrow - magic creates it, but there is absolutely, 100% definitely, an acid-covered arrow in your face.



Ban them? lol. This was never intended to be a serious class. unlike other ignored works of mine. meanwhile this mostly joke of a class is stealing all the attention :smallfrown:

Why did you even bother to post it then? You seem dedicated to shooting down every criticism of the class, and now, after a bunch of people legitimately tried to help you and were ignored, you now state that it was a joke.

Cipher Stars
2011-07-09, 10:52 AM
Yeah...This class' spell immunity by itself is better than anything you can do WITH magic. Even a permanent, non-dispellable globe of invulnerability doesn't even come close to matching that.

Not to mention the fact that the character becomes immune to them exactly when casters of equal level would be able to cast them. I assume it also applies to positive effects like healing and buffs, but nonetheless, that hardly compensates for blanket immunity to spells up to 9th level.

I'd suggest giving them SR 15+Class Level, which they cannot turn off.


As intended. I'll note they can't turn it off.


Also the enhancement bonus thing should have some combination of these limits:

1: It should not start at first level
2: It should cost some GP or XP to activate, similar to the way a Kensai can imbue their weapons. Keep in mind that no magic has to actually occur, you could just say the ingredients are necessary to meditate or otherwise "attune" yourself with the weapon.
Ah. +1 at first level is rather off.
Its not meant to be any physical improvement on the weapon, its the Fighters skill in using them.

Morph Bark
2011-07-09, 04:09 PM
It needs to be really indirect. As in... throw something real using magic. Or buff yourself to stick him with a sword. (And with 10/5 vs 20/15/10/5 I'm voting for the Fighter)

You specifically put in the Disbelieve class ability that buffing yourself does not work.

Hiro Protagonest
2011-07-09, 04:41 PM
[The fighter ignores, completely, all magic or magic inspired effects with an equivalent level equal to shown above. Rocks that fell from the ceiling due to a magical explosion, would be ignored. A summoned undead, would be ignored. Even a Polymorph would be ignored. No magic effects the Stubborn Fighter. A Wizard who through magic gained full BAB and +10 STR or something would Not have full BAB or +STR when attacking the Fighter.

Um, what? I get ignoring magical boosts from bull's strength and Tenser's transformation, but how the heck does he ignore the extra attack from haste, or completely non-magical rocks that would affect him if the wizard had thrown a bomb instead of cast a meteor swarm?

super dark33
2011-07-09, 05:36 PM
can the fighter ignore all spells that cant be magic resisted like the orb spell line?

Shadow Lord
2011-07-09, 07:08 PM
Another question: Since a world is usually created by Divine Magic, used by Deities, and since Life is normally also created by Divine Magic, does this mean that the Fighter ignores Life, and the World? The abilities are at least magic inspired, so it's assumed you would ignore them.

Also, how does he explain regeneration? 'Tis not magic, it's a supernatural ability.

All in all, this class is unplayable, overpowered, and underpowered. All at the same time. Which is not cool. :smallannoyed:

Hiro Protagonest
2011-07-09, 07:20 PM
Another question: Since a world is usually created by Divine Magic, used by Deities, and since Life is normally also created by Divine Magic, does this mean that the Fighter ignores Life, and the World? The abilities are at least magic inspired, so it's assumed you would ignore them.

Also, how does he explain regeneration? 'Tis not magic, it's a supernatural ability.

All in all, this class is unplayable, overpowered, and underpowered. All at the same time. Which is not cool. :smallannoyed:

It's supposed to be a joke. Then again, the avenger was also a joke, and it works great for those who hate the "must be evil" assassin requirement.

Shadow Lord
2011-07-09, 09:47 PM
It's supposed to be a joke. Then again, the avenger was also a joke, and it works great for those who hate the "must be evil" assassin requirement.

Still, I wanna know the answer to my question. Also... I just had a brilliant base class idea.

Epsilon Rose
2011-07-09, 10:02 PM
I just had a brilliant base class idea.

Is it called the determinator?
Because that would be a brilliant base class!

Cipher Stars
2011-07-09, 10:07 PM
Another question: Since a world is usually created by Divine Magic, used by Deities, and since Life is normally also created by Divine Magic, does this mean that the Fighter ignores Life, and the World? The abilities are at least magic inspired, so it's assumed you would ignore them.

Of course not. Do Atheist Scientists (Note I don't mean any possible offense, I use both, as scientists are not all atheists and neither are atheists all scientists,) believe the world was created by divine magic/god? no.

They see things as science. Essentially; the same way many see our world.

Think of the Stubborn Fighter as someone who's semi trapped in D&D and semi trapped in a world without magic.
While she appears normally, and interacts normally with nonmagical effects, the non-magic world takes over when she would be subject to magic.
Think... Illusion. Theres a permanent veil barring her sight to magic. Coupled with reality itself bending to keep that illusion from shattering ie; spell immunity to the point that orbs or telekinetically throwing a spear at them does nothing (They wouldn't even know you (magically) threw said spear at them)

Hiro Protagonest
2011-07-09, 10:08 PM
I don't think this class would ever work in action. It would a funny sight though, with the fighter under a rock muttering about the teleporting swordsage, flying wizard, and healing cleric not doing that. He must be seeing things, or he has a headache, or he's going insane!

Shadow Lord
2011-07-09, 10:18 PM
I don't think this class would ever work in action. It would a funny sight though, with the fighter under a rock muttering about the teleporting swordsage, flying wizard, and healing cleric not doing that. He must be seeing things, or he has a headache, or he's going insane!

Even more funny when he sees a troll regenerate an arm. Or if he just sees a dragon. T'would be funny.

Cipher Stars
2011-07-09, 10:21 PM
I don't think this class would ever work in action. It would a funny sight though, with the fighter under a rock muttering about the teleporting swordsage, flying wizard, and healing cleric not doing that. He must be seeing things, or he has a headache, or he's going insane!

Well, He probably wouldn't perceive them anyway. But Stubborn Fighters would be more logical. They'd more likely puzzle over probabilities, equations and possible reasons for what they saw.
Though not everyone follows a set bracket. And I suppose there could be a few crazies.
"You. don't. EXIST" *bashing a wizards head in with a stick*

Epsilon Rose
2011-07-09, 10:38 PM
But Stubborn Fighters would be more logical. They'd more likely puzzle over probabilities, equations and possible reasons for what they saw.

You know, in D&D there's a name for people who do that.
They're called wizards.

Hiro Protagonest
2011-07-09, 10:51 PM
Well, He probably wouldn't perceive them anyway. But Stubborn Fighters would be more logical. They'd more likely puzzle over probabilities, equations and possible reasons for what they saw.
Though not everyone follows a set bracket. And I suppose there could be a few crazies.
"You. don't. EXIST" *bashing a wizards head in with a stick*

And how would that work? I don't get how he couldn't see the cleric bring the guy back from the brink of death by touching him. I also don't see how he could come up with a logical explanation.

Shadow Lord
2011-07-09, 10:54 PM
Still no answer to me Troll question. Why won't thou answer me? Is thou scared? :smallamused:

Cipher Stars
2011-07-09, 11:40 PM
{Scrubbed}

Shadow Lord
2011-07-09, 11:52 PM
{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

Hey! I'm not trolling; that answer just didn't answer the question. I want to know specifically how he would explain a Troll regenerating a freaking arm.

Hiro Protagonest
2011-07-09, 11:54 PM
Hey! I'm not trolling; that answer just didn't answer the question. I want to know specifically how he would explain a Troll regenerating a freaking arm.

Didn't answer my question about healing either...

Togath
2011-07-10, 04:01 AM
Maybe he veiws the healing effects as psionics?, sorta stretch though.

Urpriest
2011-07-10, 08:32 AM
Maybe he veiws the healing effects as psionics?, sorta stretch though.

Nope. Psionics are magic in most campaigns, and kinda crumble if they aren't.

Veklim
2011-07-10, 08:56 AM
...Or if he just sees a dragon..

Aren't dragons inherantly magical creatures? Therefore, he'd not be able to perceive, or even directly interact with them, surely?

Shadow Lord
2011-07-10, 09:46 AM
Aren't dragons inherantly magical creatures? Therefore, he'd not be able to perceive, or even directly interact with them, surely?

Is their abilites not inherently magically inspired if they have the ability to ignore magic? Does that mean they ignore their own class feature? I'M SO CONFUSED!

drakir_nosslin
2011-07-10, 10:01 AM
The stubborn fighter also wouldn't be able to save his friends from a raging golem, or any other magically animated/created creature. Granted, the fighter couldn't be harmed by it either, but imagine its surprise when people start to die all around it and it can't even see the thing that smashes in their heads :smalltongue:

Hiro Protagonest
2011-07-10, 04:01 PM
Is their abilites not inherently magically inspired if they have the ability to ignore magic? Does that mean they ignore their own class feature? I'M SO CONFUSED!

Yeah, the thing of "illusion not allowing them to see magic" makes no sense.

Analytica
2011-07-10, 06:13 PM
This would work a lot better in Mage: the Ascension, where the basic premise was that the world is actually entirely subjective, and any clash between two forces is ultimately up to whoever believes the strongest.

Under that premise, you might have someone disbelieving magic very strongly, or many people doing it, and reality would retcon the magic away, so in fact there never was a fireball, and there actually was some perfectly mundane reason things happened.

In D&D though, you run into more trouble. Consider the flying city. It is flying through magic, magic does not exist as far as the stubborn fighter is concerned. Does it fall, then? If it does, do the falling rocks hurt the fighter?

Hiro Protagonest
2011-07-10, 06:15 PM
In D&D though, you run into more trouble. Consider the flying city. It is flying through magic, magic does not exist as far as the stubborn fighter is concerned. Does it fall, then? If it does, do the falling rocks hurt the fighter?

Unfortunately, the OP specifically spelled out that those non-magical rocks do not harm the fighter in any way, because they fell due to magic. :smallsigh:

Analytica
2011-07-10, 06:19 PM
But the rocks are non-magical, they were just made to fly. So does this mean that what the fighter's conviction actually does is keep the falling rocks at bay, or instantaneously healing the damage they cause?

Shadow Lord
2011-07-10, 06:22 PM
It seems to me like he just kinda... is so convinced that magic isn't real, that he can deny the existence of the magic, and somehow also deny the existence of everything that had anything to do with the magic. Which is not smart.

Morph Bark
2011-07-11, 03:59 AM
If someone was conceived using magic or had a resurrection spell cast on them before entering this class, would they cease to exist/die once they entered the class or hit the level at which they become immune to the level of spell responsible?

Urpriest
2011-07-11, 08:05 AM
A moderately constructive suggestion:

If you want the ability to be as deliciously overpowered as intended, it should be phrased as such. Here's a suggestion:

Upon entering this class the Stubborn Fighter sees the world differently. Where others see the world as a magical world full of supernatural beings, the Fighter does not believe in any form of magic. Once a level of this class is taken the player of the Stubborn Fighter should be taken aside from the rest of the group. The DM should then decide what the campaign setting would have been like without any historical sources of magic. Once the DM has decided this, the DM will run a game of d20 Past for the Fighter set in this world, with all FX abilities and any creatures besides humans and creatures of the Animal type banned. The other players may choose to join this game if they wish, though they are also subject to its constraints. The DM must simultaneously run the preexisting D&D game, with the caveat that the character who is now the Stubborn Fighter falls into a catatonic state as per Microcosm except that there is no cure.

I couldn't figure out how to get the increasing spell levels in, but this should be along the right lines.

Cipher Stars
2011-07-11, 09:46 AM
If you want the ability to be as deliciously overpowered as intended,
someone gets it after all...



Upon entering this class the Stubborn Fighter sees the world differently. Where others see the world as a magical world full of supernatural beings, the Fighter does not believe in any form of magic. Once a level of this class is taken the player of the Stubborn Fighter should be taken aside from the rest of the group. The DM should then decide what the campaign setting would have been like without any historical sources of magic. Once the DM has decided this, the DM will run a game of d20 Past for the Fighter set in this world, with all FX abilities and any creatures besides humans and creatures of the Animal type banned. The other players may choose to join this game if they wish, though they are also subject to its constraints. The DM must simultaneously run the preexisting D&D game, with the caveat that the character who is now the Stubborn Fighter falls into a catatonic state as per Microcosm except that there is no cure.

I couldn't figure out how to get the increasing spell levels in, but this should be along the right lines.
this confuses me let alone any struggling DM out there...

Veklim
2011-07-11, 09:56 AM
Of course there's another way...slightly less effective, but essentially the stubborn fighter sees all magical effects as nothing more than cheap parlour tricks. It's not that he cannot or will not perceive it, but simply that he doesn't believe. Couple it with his immunities and most things would never worry him. Perhaps animated objects, mundane items propelled by magic, creatures summoned and the like should be allowed to affect him. After all, he ignores most of the big nasties and the save or die stuff, what's a dire badger and a couple of zombies, or a catapulted rock in the face of that?

I find it interesting that the majority of your class hasn't been critiqued upon with much fervour, all the energy seems to be going into the semantics of your fluff. I find this understandable, but a little sad. In theory, this is a sweet idea, and finally something to resurrect the (frequently mentioned by me, 'coz I love 'em!) Forsaker concept of a walking embodiment of the mundane.

Urpriest
2011-07-11, 10:54 AM
this confuses me let alone any struggling DM out there...

Well that's hardly constructive.

Quick summary: the Fighter goes off and plays a different game with no magic in it.

super dark33
2011-07-11, 07:00 PM
My question wasnt answered, can the fighter 'ignore' spells like fire orb or forcecage?

Epsilon Rose
2011-07-11, 07:36 PM
My question wasnt answered, can the fighter 'ignore' spells like fire orb or forcecage?

That's already been covered. The answer is yes. They can also ignore undead and rocks falling because you blasted the ceiling with something.:smallconfused:

Shadow Lord
2011-07-11, 08:49 PM
See, the idea is great. The implementation is crazy. And not crazy good. I mean... utter immunity to all spells once you hit level 20? Not cool. Normally the classes by this person are much better, but this one class ain't very good.

Hiro Protagonest
2011-07-11, 09:53 PM
See, the idea is great. The implementation is crazy. And not crazy good. I mean... utter immunity to all spells once you hit level 20? Not cool. Normally the classes by this person are much better, but this one class ain't very good.

It's meant to be a joke. The problem is making it overpowered isn't the only way to make it a joke, and even as a joke, it makes absolutely no sense in how it believes magic isn't real.

Epsilon Rose
2011-07-11, 10:05 PM
It's meant to be a joke. The problem is making it overpowered isn't the only way to make it a joke, and even as a joke, it makes absolutely no sense in how it believes magic isn't real.

Part of the problem is that it's not a particularly good joke. There's nothing in the class design to tell a reader that it's a joke and not a badly designed class (none of the abilities are particularly unbelievable and none of the descriptions seem to be attempting a tongue-in-cheek wording, or humor of any sort really. I'd be willing to bet most people didn't realize this was a joke until the author told us on the second page (I know I didn't) and the way the arguments were going didn't help.

Poe's law is fun, isn't it?... isn't it?

Hiro Protagonest
2011-07-11, 10:12 PM
{Scrubbed}

Cipher Stars
2011-07-11, 10:17 PM
Its not joke, so much as not serious.
Unlike every other piece of homebrew I've ever made, discounting "Bear God" in some bear feat craze meant to be both epic and crazy, yet everyone's constantly picking at this one. Its frustrating. Maybe I should make non-serious threads more often, but also made with the intention of replies that constantly jabber about how horrible it is.

"Its so horrible!... But I'll keep coming back to pick at it some more"

I changed, sometime last night, the immunity to only apply to direct attacks. So a Transformed Wizard full of buffs retains all defenses as the Stubborn fighter attacks, but no buffs when the wizard attacks the fighter.

Last change. I'm not willing to change anything further, because I never even meant to look at it again after I posted in the first place.

So stop saying my brews suck, and that I can't make ****. Because thats what I'm getting from all your comments.

Shadow Lord
2011-07-11, 10:32 PM
See, the idea is great. The implementation is crazy. And not crazy good. I mean... utter immunity to all spells once you hit level 20? Not cool. Normally the classes by this person are much better, but this one class ain't very good.

O rly? Well then!

Cipher Stars
2011-07-11, 10:35 PM
O rly? Well then!

None the less, that part did make me feel a lil better though :smallwink:

Shadow Lord
2011-07-11, 10:40 PM
None the less, that part did make me feel a lil better though :smallwink:

Good, because if it made you sad, I would have to CONSUME YOUR VERY SOUL!

averagejoe
2011-07-11, 10:58 PM
The Mod They Call Me: This thread has degenerated into what amounts to pointless, non-constructive, and kind of mean spirited comments. Thread locked.