Shadow Conjuration and Shadow Evocation. What's the point?

[Lui]

sorry, i honestly don't get it. what's the point in these two spells?
they sound cool, probably cooler then the real versions, but they are utterly worse in game terms. unless you are a specialised illusionist with evocation and conjuration as forbidden schools and you need them BADLY, why would you use them?
they are higher level spells, they inflict way less damage and grant double save checks: the normal ones, plus the illusion's.
am i missing something? (i think the idea behind it is cool, it's what makes me mad)

[mootoall]

Pull out your copy of Races of Stone. Check out the Shadowcraft Mage. Enjoy.

[Psyren]

And let's not forget spells that don't need to do damage to be good, like Shadow Contingency.

[mootoall]

Oh, and let's also not forget Wall of Force, the other evocation spell.

[Acanous]

My specialist Illusionists DO prohibit Evocation and Conjuration, for this reason.

Instead of having the schools completely inaccessable, you get them at decreased effectiveness and higher spell level.. But with the caveat that you can prepare one spell, and pick what it does upon casting it.

IE, I prepare Shadow Evocation at the beginning of the day. The DM hits me with a random encounter. It's a Troll, so I use Burning Hands to finish him off at the end of the combat.
Next day, I'm fighting a Fire elemental, so I use Cone of Cold.

It adds versitility at the cost of effectiveness. Also, the other examples in this thread are good :3

[Psyren]

Don't ban conjuration >_< There are many reasons why, but one of the key ones is that Shadow Conjuration is more limited in scope than Shadow Evocation. You can't, for instance, Shadow Teleport or Shadow Plane Shift.


You CAN Shadow Walk though... which is sort of a mix of both and comes online later and takes many times longer and invites all kinds of DM screw.

[HalfDragonCube]

Oh, and let's also not forget Wall of Force, the other evocation spell.

While being a very good spell to shadow evoke, you have some problems by way of deciding what happens when someone begins believing in it while standing inside.

Splat. :smalleek:

[mootoall]

Oh, right, never ban Conjuration. Forgot about that. Anyway, yeah, it always bothered me how well-defined illusions are, but how poorly defined their interactions with the world are ...

[Midnight_v]

sorry, i honestly don't get it. what's the point in these two spells?
they sound cool, probably cooler then the real versions, but they are utterly worse in game terms. unless you are a specialised illusionist with evocation and conjuration as forbidden schools and you need them BADLY, why would you use them?
they are higher level spells, they inflict way less damage and grant double save checks: the normal ones, plus the illusion's.
am i missing something? (i think the idea behind it is cool, it's what makes me mad)

Point is its a spell that lets you prepare it then cast all kinds of other spells off of it. Even without things like Shadowcraft you can find a use for having the vesitilty to case anything out of those schools on a whim.
Further there are quite a few things to make the shadows "more real" .



Oh, right, never ban Conjuration. that is the rule yea... just yeah.


Forgot about that. Learn it. Live it. Sig it.


Anyway, yeah, it always bothered me how well-defined illusions are, but how poorly defined their interactions with the world are ...
I honestly don't think anyones really happy with that who looks at it closely at all. I see a lot of talk about that whenever it comes up anywhere. Its an issue with the system. Illusion is either roflstrong or worthless, depending on the dm.

[Lui]

well, thank you very much, you all.

[Eldan]

They are also amazing spells for sorcerers.

Instead of having perhaps a dozen spells known, you have 11 and every evocation or conjuration ever, though slightly less effective.

And especially conjuration has a lot that doesn't deal damage in any way You can, say, still bind or summon creatures for information and SLAs.

[Acanous]

I like Shadow Walk >.>
I once ditched an NPC I didn't like VIA Shadow walk, and it's so much more feasable if the other casters in the party know you can't teleport.

[ericgrau]

Instead of having perhaps a dozen spells known, you have 11 and every evocation or conjuration ever, though slightly enormously less effective
Fixed. Also I don't like people making other people's sorcerers worse this way. A sorc can prepare as many spells as a wizard and thus use a typical wizard's general purpose spell list; no need to gimp the poor sorcerer to "fix" some supposed problem.

For the OP, basically there are a few utility tricks you can still use the spells for. Walls of "maybe" suck in combat, but sometimes you want a selectively passable wall. It's good for summon monster to trigger traps. Lots of other random options mainly for out of combat use. Or ya there's always shadowcraft as said.

[Talya]

Fixed. Also I don't like people making other people's sorcerers worse this way. A sorc can prepare as many spells as a wizard and thus use a typical wizard's general purpose spell list; no need to gimp the poor sorcerer to "fix" some supposed problem.

For the OP, basically there are a few utility tricks you can still use the spells for. Walls of "maybe" suck in combat, but sometimes you want a selectively passable wall. It's good for summon monster to trigger traps. Lots of other random options mainly for out of combat use. Or ya there's always shadowcraft as said.

I disagree. They are not generally "enormously less effective." Most sorcerers find ways to pump their charisma to stratospheric levels. If one is relying on spells with saving throws, DC modifiers like spell focus are a good idea, as well. Shadow versions of these spells are also at least one spell level higher than their real versions, so they have higher DCs to start with. Lastly, the spells still function at reduced levels even if the initial saving throw is made. This is not "enormously less effective."

Shadow Conjuration/Evocation line of spells should be on every sorcerer's spell list. They add an amazing amount of versatility in spell selection at the cost of a single spell slot each (while saving potentially dozens of spell slots in the spells they can replicate.)

Should one rely on them exclusively? of course not. The main draw of Orb conjurations, for instance, is ignoring SR. A shadow conjuration orb is rarely going to be used. But there's no reason not to take greater shadow evocation instead of contingency, as an example.

A sorcerer has a very limited spell list. Any spell which can replicate 5 or 6 other spells that you might otherwise use up part of your spells known for is a nobrainer.

[Piggy Knowles]

Just looking at the SRD, there are quite a lot of spells that work well with the Shadow spells. If you add in spells from all sources, there are very few situations I can imagine where it WOULDN'T come in handy.

So, from the SRD alone, we've got:

SHADOW CONJURATION

Right off the bat, both Phantom Steed and Summon Monster work quite well as Shadow Conjuration spells. The cloud spells and Sleet Storm can also be pretty good, but it depends on the DM's definition of "interacts with". For example, does hampering vision require a save, or is it only if the person steps into the fog cloud?

GREATER SHADOW CONJURATION

Summoned monsters still remain a pretty good choice, as do walls and clouds. Major Creation is niche, but it means you can basically make ANYTHING. The binding spells become straight-up broken, if your DM allows you to shadow-bind creatures (especially when you start thinking about SLAs).

SHADOW EVOCATION

Partially great because so many wizards ban evocation, but there are also some really good Evocations that can just shut down certain situations, but don't come up often enough to always prepare, or to choose as a known spell. For instance...

Wind Wall basically makes you 100% immune to arrows. It's a mediocre wall choice otherwise, but if you're going up against ranged attackers, there's very little they can do about the spell. Daylight is another spell that frequently doesn't do much, but really comes in handy every now and then.

Wall of Ice is fun because, unlike things summoned with Shadow Conjuration, it doesn't have 1/5 HP, so if people choose to interact with it and fail their save, it's still a full-strength wall. Resilient Sphere can be used offensively, which requires a double save, but with the Shadow version, it's a nice choice if you just really need to turtle for a few rounds.

GREATER SHADOW EVOCATION

Sending is one of those "only need it now and then, but really saves your ass when you do" spells - perfect for using the Shadow spells. As mentioned, Wall of Force is still pretty clutch. Contingency, like binding, can veer toward being broken if allowed, especially if your DM rules that Shadow Contingencies are separate from regular Contingencies (and hence you can have both active). Shadow Forcecage allows a save, but is still pretty bad-ass.

[Talya]

Resilient Sphere can be used offensively, which requires a double save, but with the Shadow version, it's a nice choice if you just really need to turtle for a few rounds.


I love the shadow spells, but this strikes me as a very, very bad idea.

What happens if you try to turtle in a shadowed resilient sphere, and then your enemy tries to break through and makes his will save? Then he can poke through it almost at will with sharp implements, while you, who have willingly forgone your save, are stuck inside?

[Piggy Knowles]

I love the shadow spells, but this strikes me as a very, very bad idea.

What happens if you try to turtle in a shadowed resilient sphere, and then your enemy tries to break through and makes his will save? Then he can poke through it almost at will with sharp implements, while you, who have willingly forgone your save, are stuck inside?

Resilient Sphere is dismissable.

[Big Fau]

I love the shadow spells, but this strikes me as a very, very bad idea.

What happens if you try to turtle in a shadowed resilient sphere, and then your enemy tries to break through and makes his will save? Then he can poke through it almost at will with sharp implements, while you, who have willingly forgone your save, are stuck inside?

As stated, Resilient Sphere is dismissible. Its best to have an abjuration or two preventing enemies from getting closer just in case though (Magic Circle, etc).

[erikun]

What happens if you try to turtle in a shadowed resilient sphere, and then your enemy tries to break through and makes his will save? Then he can poke through it almost at will with sharp implements, while you, who have willingly forgone your save, are stuck inside?
Unless you are using it to move around while inside (which is Telekinetic Sphere anyways), why would you forgo your save? Saving against your own shadow sphere means you have a potential barrier against attackers, but are free to attack through it.

[Piggy Knowles]

Unless you are using it to move around while inside (which is Telekinetic Sphere anyways), why would you forgo your save? Saving against your own shadow sphere means you have a potential barrier against attackers, but are free to attack through it.

Yup! That's also one of the main reasons why, depending on the DM, things like Shadow walls, Shadow clouds, etc. can become really good choices.

The clouds can get a little wonky with the "20% likely to occur" clause in Shadow Conjuration, but the evocation-based walls are pretty clutch.

[ericgrau]

Creatures can and do pass saves in any reasonable, unbroken game. Allowing 2 saves where there was 1 is very bad. Allowing a save where there was none is worse. Besides being a level lower most shadow spells are extremely weak combat spells. Giving any reasonable monster a roughly 50:50 chance of ignoring the effect and me wasting a turn isn't just a little worse, it's horrid. It gets worse once you start examining spells 1 by 1. Most of the best spells, particularly in conjuration and evocation, thrive on having no save or being non-magical or otherwise unaffected by dispel/AMF. The walls especially.

It gets worse when you aren't trying to force the ideal scenario with shadow as your very highest spell, forcing the character burn his precious feats to focus on the concept with greater spell focus (in both schools? i dunno), etc. If I glitterdust 1/4 my targets instead of 1/2 of them, I might as well be playing half a character. Likewise if I wall of force half the encounter ftw and then some of those foes leak through, then tell their buddies "hey, try it again with the +4 I just gave you," or arguably auto-pass the save due to proof.

Ya utility things like phantom steed are the way to go. Combat spells not so much.

[Piggy Knowles]

Creatures can and do pass saves in any reasonable, unbroken game. Allowing 2 saves where there was 1 is very bad. Allowing a save where there was none is worse.

Note that the majority of spells that I mentioned as being excellent choices are things like walls, clouds, etc. The creatures have to interact with them to allow a save. Unless your DM decides that just looking at them is interacting (in which case, illusion spells in general are probably pretty nerfed in your campaign), that means that a monster is going to have to choose to bust down that wall, or enter that stinking cloud or sleet storm to get to the squishy inside. A lot of intelligent monsters might not make that choice, especially if there are real walls and fogs and things also being tossed up in the battle. And if they do decide to do it, there's still a chance that they are effected.


Ya utility things like phantom steed are the way to go. Combat spells not so much.

We're perfectly in agreement on this point. I just think you're underestimating its usefulness on battlefield control spells. Unless you've got a DM who metagames, and plays his monsters so that they immediately jump into every Shadow effect you throw up to force a save, they can be quite potent.

[Lonely Tylenol]

The usefulness of Shadow Evocation and Shadow Conjuration is highly dependent on your level of optimization.

Low-op: Shadow Evocation and Shadow Conjuration are doing a bit for you, but aren't game-breakingly awesome, because you're using them probably the way that the OP described: to have a lot of spells that do way less damage, or grant two saves for the price of one.

Mid-op: Shadow Evocation and Shadow Conjuration are awesome for shadow Contingencies and for basically giving you all the things that Shadow Evocation and Conjuration allow, even the broken stuff. You might even have some features that enhance the reality of your shadow spells (such as Shadowcraft Mage's capstone, or levels in Shadowcrafter) if you are fond of the idea.

High-op: Shadow Evocation and Shadow Conjuration are useless. I mean, sure, you've taken Shadowcraft Mage to its capstone, got a bunch of levels in Shadowcrafter, and maybe even went book-diving to find the Enhance Shadow Reality feat in some Dragon magazine printout. You've got your Shadow Reality pumped so much that when your opponents pass the save, the spell actually does more than 100% of its original effect (and yes, this can happen).

So why are they useless?

Because if you're high-op enough, you're using Silent Image with Heighten Spell/Earth Spell and Shadowcraft Mage's level 3 ability to do everything Shadow Evocation and Shadow Conjuration can do, but better, and using the same level spell slot as the spell you're focusing on (instead of fixed slots for the equivalent spells, regardless of the spell slot you're casting). You even have access to 9th level spells. Squee!

[Jack_Simth]

sorry, i honestly don't get it. what's the point in these two spells?A number of reasons.

It's the only Core method of getting a standard action flanking buddy for the Rogue via spell (even disbelieved, they still threaten, and still occupy a space which the enemy can't trivially go through, you see).

You can voluntarily skip the save vs. your own spell, and be fully effected - so Shadow Conjouration is one spell prepared (or known, for a Sorcerer) that permits you to use Phantom Steed and Mage Armor. Shadow Evocation is one of the few Core ways to pick your attack element on the fly.

And so on. Are shadow-copies worse than the spell they copy? Sure. They're still quite useful, however, and permit some interesting tactics. For instance, if you use Greater Spell Immunity (Greater Shadow Evocation) on the party, and then use Greater Shadow Evocation to duplicate Forcecage on a group of enemies, some of the enemies can get through, some can't... but your entire party CAN (except maybe for you). Great for the Divide & Conquer strategy.

[Talya]

Besides being a level lower most shadow spells are extremely weak combat spells.

They're actually at least a level higher, not lower. For example, let's take the lowly, regular fireball is level 3. This gives it a minimum DC of 14 (10+3, +1 for int 13), and a likely DC of 17 or higher. A shadow evocation fireball has a minimum DC of 17 (10+5, +2 for int 15), and a likely DC of 19 or higher. The higher level slot is actually something of an advantage for the extra-save shadow spells.

Anyway, anyone with a modicum of optimization and tactical sense gives their opponents a far lower than 50% odds to make any given save. You usually wouldn't use a shadow version of a spell on a target with a high will save - you'd pick one of your fortitude or reflex based spells. Likewise, if you're using shadow spells, you're likely going to have pumped the DC of your spells rather high. A Greater Shadow Evocation on the last sorceress I played -- even without Illusion Focus, was sitting at DC 33. Beat that with a low will save opponent...

[ericgrau]

Note that the majority of spells that I mentioned as being excellent choices are things like walls, clouds, etc. The creatures have to interact with them to allow a save.
Generally I use walls and clouds to seal off foe(s). The typical response to a cloud is to go through the cloud as slow as that may be. A wall of force is invisible and thus leaves no reason not to try it, while all the other walls are destructible. If it's the only way to go, you don't sit on your hands for the fight, you try to break it. If you're using a wall or fog to force a minor delay to make opponents go around, then you're very unlucky and probably wish you had something else to cast. So... the shadow spell becomes almost as good in a poor situation where you probably should have cast something else. Yay?

[Piggy Knowles]

Sure, you seal off foes, create choke points, etc. The thing is, my sole battlefield control will probably not be a Shadow conjuration. Chances are I've already been doing that, and monsters have been struggling against Walls of Stone, or Black Tentacles, or Solid Fogs, or whatever.

If I cut off a large swath of opponents with a wall, and then fill any remaining choke points with a Solid Fog or whatever, why would they go after the choke point, instead of going after the existing wall?

And heck, say one monster DOES try it, and succeeds on the disbelief save, and calls all his buddies over. Anything that causes all of my opponents to rush a Solid Fog, even a quasi-real one, is fine by my books.

[Necroticplague]

I Like to use them in ways that take advantage of the fact some people are effected, and some aren't. Like let's say you use shadow evocation(bridge of sound) to bridge a gap. You (and your party members) willingly fail your will save, so the bridge is entirely solid to you. Some people try and follow you, they succeed their will save, they fall through.

[Kurald Galain]

sorry, i honestly don't get it. what's the point in these two spells?
They exist for legacy reasons. In 2E, being an illusionist required you to drop three schools, including both conjuration and evocation. These spells were used to get them back to some extent.

[Douglas]

They're actually at least a level higher, not lower. For example, let's take the lowly, regular fireball is level 3. This gives it a minimum DC of 14 (10+3, +1 for int 13), and a likely DC of 17 or higher. A shadow evocation fireball has a minimum DC of 17 (10+5, +2 for int 15), and a likely DC of 19 or higher. The higher level slot is actually something of an advantage for the extra-save shadow spells.
He's talking about the level of the spell duplicated compared to the slot spent, not the save DC. Which is better, a Heightened (5th level) Fireball with an extra save that drops damage to 20% and stacks with the normal save, or a plain Empowered Fireball? They both take a 5th level slot, but in almost all cases the Empowered Fireball is clearly better despite having a slightly lower save DC.

His point is that with Shadow Evocation you're spending a 5th level slot to achieve an effect that is weaker than 5th level slots normally produce.

[Big Fau]

His point is that with Shadow Evocation you're spending a 5th level slot to achieve an effect that is weaker than 5th level slots normally produce.

Which is why you never use it for DD spells, since those are horrible anyway.

[Runestar]

Spells duplicated this way do not require an expensive material component and have a casting time of shadow evocation/conjuration.

Thus, a normal phantom steed would take 10 minutes to cast; the same spell replicated by shadow conjuration would take just 1 standard action.

Similarly, a forcecage replicated via greater shadow evocation does not need the 1000gp diamond.

In addition, you have the flexibility to choosing what spell you want on the fly. That should be worth something.

[Lui]

I Like to use them in ways that take advantage of the fact some people are effected, and some aren't. Like let's say you use shadow evocation(bridge of sound) to bridge a gap. You (and your party members) willingly fail your will save, so the bridge is entirely solid to you. Some people try and follow you, they succeed their will save, they fall through.

can't they willingly fail their save, too?

and in the opposite situation, when they want to succed, one foe making the save means that all the others get a +4, right?
so, it's still possible that some foe passes through a shadow wall, and some other not, but it's less likely than it seems. am i wrong?
(i am a huge fan of these spells by now, but i still see these two things as a problem.)

[Lui]

also, i'm not sure this is true:


Spells duplicated this way do not require an expensive material component and have a casting time of shadow evocation/conjuration.

[MeeposFire]

They exist for legacy reasons. In 2E, being an illusionist required you to drop three schools, including both conjuration and evocation. These spells were used to get them back to some extent.

In 2e illusionists lost access to necromancy, invocation/evocation, and abjuration. Conjuration/summoning was still an allowed school at least in standard 2e.

The only basic set of specialists that lost access to conjuration/summoning were the diviner and the invoker.

[CTrees]

also, i'm not sure this is true:

The components are explicitly listed, and do not include material components. Further, the text is "You tap energy from the Plane of Shadow to cast a quasi-real, illusory version of a sorcerer or wizard evocation spell" (or similar - that was from Shadow Evocation). The effect of the spell is replication of another spell. No where does it say you need the material components - it functions the same as SLAs, basically - another means of replicating the effect of a spell, but with slightly different rules and consequences.

[Jack_Simth]

can't they willingly fail their save, too?

Yes and no.

Yes, you can willingly fail your save vs. someone else's spell.

No, it's not a good idea unless you know *exactly* what the spell is already, and/or the person causing the save is on your 'totally trusted' list.

Consider, for a moment, what kinds of effects usually involve a Will save, and then tell me whether or not you'd want to deliberately fail a Will save vs. an effect you're not fully certain of when it's cast by your enemies, and you're in the middle of a fight with them.
and in the opposite situation, when they want to succed, one foe making the save means that all the others get a +4, right?
Yes and no. The others can make the Disbelief save with a +4 bonus if the person who detects it tells them about it. And, of course, if they have proof it's an illusion, they don't need the Will Disbelief at all... so the first person to fall through probably reveals it for what it is. Not that it stops the effect from dividing chasers anyway.


so, it's still possible that some foe passes through a shadow wall, and some other not, but it's less likely than it seems. am i wrong?
(i am a huge fan of these spells by now, but i still see these two things as a problem.)
It's actually quite likely. All those who do not make their save are stuck. Those who do make their save *might* be stuck. If *all* of your opponents save vs. Greater Shadow Conjouration (Wall of Stone), then 60% of them are stopped by it anyway, causing 40% of them to continue. Your opponents are now split.

If all of them fail, they're all stopped... but the arrows you fire (being objects) are only 60% likely to be stopped.

[Rogue Shadows]

In addition, you have the flexibility to choosing what spell you want on the fly. That should be worth something.

A wizard who thinks he's a sorcerer...or a sorcerer who thinks he's a gestalt sorcerer/sorcerer...

[Talya]

Similarly, a forcecage replicated via greater shadow evocation does not need the 1000gp diamond.


True, although the original forcecage actually requires 1500gp worth of ruby dust.

[Particle_Man]

They exist for legacy reasons. In 2E, being an illusionist required you to drop three schools, including both conjuration and evocation. These spells were used to get them back to some extent.

In 1E there was shadow magic, demi-shadow magic, shadow monsters, demi-shadow monsters and shades, which effectively were the ancestors of shadow evocation (and greater shadow evocation) and shadow conjuration (and greater shadow conjuration, and shades). So the spells did duplicate other spells, and they were for illusionists who could not cast spells on the Magic User spell list.

So you are an edition off. ;) Maybe more, if one counts The Strategic Review's Illusionist.

[Chronos]

Why was this bumped?

But as for them being lower effectiveness, often, that's still plenty effective enough. Suppose you've got a level ten-ish sorcerer who finds himself at the Battle of Azure City, or something like that. Now, you don't have any spells known chosen specifically for siegebreaking, because that's pretty niche, and sorcerers can't afford something so niche. But you do have Shadow Evocation, which means that you can cover large swathes of the battlefield with Shadow Walls of Fire. OK, so some hobgoblins will disbelieve them... But even a disbelieved Shadow Wall of Fire will still do enough damage to kill every first-level hobgoblin that passes through it. Presto, you have just the spell to clear out all of the chaff and considerably simplify the battle, even though you only ever spent known slots on versatile spells.

[Khalil]

::::Casts Resurrect::::

Wow! I'm certainly glad I didn't look at this thread when I picked my sorcerer spells. Shadow evocation and shadow conjuration are awesome spells and very underrated.

Like most of y'all I wonder what was the point of having a spell that worked only 20% of the time or at 20% damage. The thing is there spells actually work at 100% If targets fail their DC. A much higher DC from original spell AND boosted if you specialize into illusion. That grease spell that is no longer useful at higher levels... Useful again.

Summon 20% weaker? Summon multiple... With poison effects or swarms.

You need a mount... Create one fail your will save and enjoy.

There is actually a whole guide to this spell and it's what opened my eyes on how awesome they are.

[Roland St. Jude]

::::Casts Resurrect::::

{snip}
Sheriff: Please don't do that.