I killed a PC, I liked it. [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

only1doug

2011-07-08, 09:48 AM

Another one bites the dust!

Seeing all the recent threads on Bad GM! I thought I'd confess to brutally Murdering a Wizard in our game session last night.

The PC's had found a secret door leading into the Mini-Boss lair, the pixie sneaked in invisible and sees to armoured figures talking and tried to use a sleep arrow on one of them (natural 20 on his save). Initiative rolled and Pixie acted again, then mini-bosses (MB's), then party. Pixie went for straight damage arrow but missed.

MB1 exclaimed about invisible attacker and casted darkness, moved out of main room to a side room to get his stuff and leave.
MB2 also moved to side room. Party failed listen checks to determine direction of movement.

Room became very nuked as the wizard and Bard unload AoEs, The Party discussed "Magic Missiling the darkness" (Yup, they really did), tried and failed to dispell and eventually decided that the MB's had left throught the rooms main door (Found early, Barred from the inside after party slaughtered all the guards in the room outside within 3 rounds) The party loudly proclaim that they should catch the MB's by cutting them off and promtly head off to do so, (except that the wizard thought the MB's might still try to leave by the secret door, so he waited behind).

The MB's took 4 rounds to gather their stuff and then left, out the secret door, ran into the wizard. One Hold person later (saving throw failed) the wizard was paralyzed, so MB2 helpfully cut his throat (Coup de Gras) and the MB's went on their way.

It was unfortunate for the Wizard but I couldn't see any reason why the MB's would leave him alive.

graeylin

2011-07-08, 09:52 AM

mootoall

2011-07-08, 09:58 AM

Reasons not to leave wizards alive: They're deadly wizards. Good on ya, mate. I think it was the right move, personally. Deaths happen, and I think it happened right.

FafnerMorell

2011-07-08, 09:58 AM

Well, I'd view it more as a "bad idea for the wizard to stay alone, where one failed save will get you killed helplessly". Remember - don't split the party!

Temet Nosce

2011-07-08, 09:59 AM

Blisstake

2011-07-08, 10:03 AM

Don't split the party. Hopefully they learned a lesson out of this.

Are they mad at you?

Larpus

2011-07-08, 10:05 AM

I'm certainly not a fan of killing the PCs nor like when the DM kills mine, but that is only when the PCs can't do anything against it, such as a no-escape situation the DM puts them in or as the result of a single poor roll (essentially a NPC crits the player).

In that specific situation however?

Totally the Wizard's fault, he should've at least convinced one melee guy to stay behind with him since, as mentioned, he's super squishy and a single poor roll might end his life.

And it did.

kharmakazy

2011-07-08, 10:15 AM

This encounter was not planned
Not my intention
Players left guard post unmanned
who's on watch they did not mention
It's not what, they should do
sleeping with no armor on
I roll their listen, all less than "2"
Cast "blacklight", now their fire's gone

I killed a PC and I liked it
The way his character sheet ignited
I killed a PC and I liked it
Hope W O T C don't mind it
It felt chaotic good
It felt chaotic bad
it don't mean they're gonna TPK
I killed a PC and I liked it
I liked it

only1doug

2011-07-08, 10:16 AM

Reasons to leave mage alive:
(granted, these reasons only work in storylines, not real life)
1) As a hostage
2) To send a message to other interlopers (scar him up a bit, but leave him alive to carry the message)
3) To torture him for money, gold, passwords, spellbook location
4) to have a captive Mage to cast extra spells
5) because as bad as they are, the MB's aren't cold blooded murders
6) Because one of the MB's is really an agent of the king, and isn't a cold blooded murder
7) as a future blood sacrifice for a horrific spell
8)....

Sadly they were both Clerics of the ToEE and were in a hurry to escape from the people who had killed all their minions and were looking for them (Eg the Party) Taking 6 seconds to slit a throat seemed to be the only course of action that they would have considered.

Don't split the party. Hopefully they learned a lesson out of this.

Are they mad at you?

More mad at themselves, They realised the wizard was dead when he went back to the room and rolled (and failed) his save. Even the wizard Player was OK with it (at least he seemed to be).

I've got a swiftly revolving door afterlife going on so it doesn't need to be a very permanent death, in fact the party have already dragged his corpse back to a person who can help them raise him (if he wants it).

I have plans that later in the campaign the parties actions may slow or stop the revolving door, but its so far caused them some hassles when "dead" enemies come back at them.

Edit:

This encounter was not planned
Not my intention
Players left guard post unmanned
who's on watch they did not mention
It's not what, they should do
sleeping with no armor on
I roll their listen, all less than "2"
Cast "blacklight", now their fire's gone

I killed a PC and I liked it
The way his character sheet ignited
I killed a PC and I liked it
Hope W O T C don't mind it
It felt chaotic good
It felt chaotic bad
it don't mean they're gonna TPK
I killed a PC and I liked it
I liked it

Yes! Exactly what I was thinking.

riddles

2011-07-08, 10:25 AM

TOZ

2011-07-08, 12:43 PM

I killed a whole party.

Running Shackled City for a bunch of new players, they botched the recovery of the wands the bad guys had stolen for ransom. With a little friendly assistance from the rival theives guild in locating the new hideout, they go to investigate how to approach.

First problem, the party had split up. The CE halfling rogue went his own way, while the rest of the party did their thing. Halfling gets there first. What does he do?

Walks in the front door.

Not finding anything in the first room, he walks into the main warehouse and fails his spot check. Urban Ranger guildmaster turns him into a corpse.

The rest of the party shows up a little later. What do they do?

Walk in the front door.

The party cleric ends up standing in the pool of halfling blood right as the ambush starts. Everything goes to hell in a handbasket, with the warehouse burning down and the party bard, who was absent that session, having to drag the rest of the group to the temple for raising.

CapnVan

2011-07-10, 02:17 PM

Come, only1doug. Join me, and together, we can rule the 'verses.

It is only when you accept that you love killing your PCs that you can understand the true power behind the DM's screen...
:smallbiggrin:

Vemynal

2011-07-10, 02:27 PM

If ya feel bad for killing his character I know I would; but ya did the right thing. Letting him lived would have put the game on "easy mode" and players would have been left feeling as if actions had no consequences

Anderlith

2011-07-10, 02:27 PM

This kind of reminds me when I killed 3 out of 8 players with a handful of Tiny Vipers.

Lord Loss

2011-07-10, 02:30 PM

TPKs: This is How It's Done (http://wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/cg/cg20001229b)

Rogue Shadows

2011-07-10, 02:32 PM

I killed a whole party.

Heck, I did that twice in a single campaign. As part of the plot, but their actual deaths were 100% done in-game. They got better pretty quickly afterwards.

Another one bites the dust!

The game is not Player VS DM!

...but...

...the DM makes the monsters and NPCs knowing that the players are going to kill them. The DM might fall in love with a particular monster or NPC. The DM might devote large portions of his or her life creating a complex and entertaining story, a dangerous dungeon, a great villain...The DM might spend hours or days or even weeks designing the perfect world of adventure for the players...

...only to watch the players sweep aside their beloved monster, bypass the trap, utterly undermine the strength of charater possessed by the villain, and burn the world to cinders. And laugh while doing it.

Such is the life of a Dungeon Master.

So is it really so bad, if every once in awhile, the DM feels *just a little* bit of joy, when the player fails a saving throw? Perhaps the one that takes them from -9 to -10?

I think it's very bad.

...but it also warms the cockles of my heart, just a little, every now and then...

Coidzor

2011-07-10, 02:40 PM

*shrugs*

Not sure what you're looking for, if it helps though I would've done the same. The Wizard didn't think things through and died. Nothing surprising there. I certainly don't see why you'd need to leave him alive in that situation (not saying you couldn't find an excuse, but I don't see a need to).

No, the wizard's problem was that he was the only one who thought things through correctly and knew what was going to happen. The rest of the party decided to go in the completely wrong direction and the wizard was unable to convince them otherwise or didn't try, though how or why that failed we don't know.

The fact that he didn't have enough protections and got instantly punked alone would show that he was not a deadly wizard in the slightest.

Pokonic

2011-07-10, 02:44 PM

Meh, the one time I did a mass PC killing is when they when into a troll lair staffed by Trolls and ogres in full plate. +3 fire resitant fullplate. They wernt supposed to run in charging the half ogre with the chain too. Realy, the diserved it for being so dumb.

Rogue Shadows

2011-07-10, 02:47 PM

The fact that he didn't have enough protections and got instantly punked alone would show that he was not a deadly wizard in the slightest.

Perhaps the Quirky Miniboss Squad decided they'd rather not take the chance? They don't know how badly they outranked the wizard. For all they know they got lucky.

...oh, he also wasn't instantly punk'd alone, the OP specifically states that it was 4 rounds before the MBs showed up.

I think it was four rounds.

Let me go check.

EDIT
Yup, the wizard had 4 rounds before the MBs show up, after specifically staying behind in order to wait for them.

Temet Nosce

2011-07-10, 02:48 PM

only1doug

2011-07-10, 02:54 PM

The game is not Player VS DM!

Your game might not be...

I've played in a game where the GM was out to kill every PC, You felt a real achievement for surviving.

But thats not my game, I don't really want the PCs dead, I just want them to know that I won't hesitate to kill them if it comes up.

...but...

...the DM makes the monsters and NPCs knowing that the players are going to kill them. The DM might fall in love with a particular monster or NPC. The DM might devote large portions of his or her life creating a complex and entertaining story, a dangerous dungeon, a great villain...The DM might spend hours or days or even weeks designing the perfect world of adventure for the players...

...only to watch the players sweep aside their beloved monster, bypass the trap, utterly undermine the strength of charater possessed by the villain, and burn the world to cinders. And laugh while doing it.

Not so much for me, I have no emotional investment in the monsters as I'm running a pre-written adventure module, I didn't even do the 3.5 update.
(temple of Elemental Evil, they are currently in room 137 having cleared most of the first basement level of the temple already)

Such is the life of a Dungeon Master.

So is it really so bad, if every once in awhile, the DM feels *just a little* bit of joy, when the player fails a saving throw? Perhaps the one that takes them from -9 to -10?

I think it's very bad.

...but it also warms the cockles of my heart, just a little, every now and then...

This is how I view it.

Also Its bad form to start celebrating a PC death in front of the Players so I have to bring my celebration here.

only1doug

2011-07-10, 03:09 PM

No, the wizard's problem was that he was the only one who thought things through correctly and knew what was going to happen. The rest of the party decided to go in the completely wrong direction and the wizard was unable to convince them otherwise or didn't try, though how or why that failed we don't know.

The fact that he didn't have enough protections and got instantly punked alone would show that he was not a deadly wizard in the slightest.

If the rest of the party hadn't loudly discussed their plans and decided that they were going to go around to the other door then the Mini Bosses would have left by the other door. They were in escape and evade mode, having just seen their 2 liuetenants killed (in 3 combat rounds) by the party.

...oh, he also wasn't instantly punk'd alone, the OP specifically states that it was 4 rounds before the MBs showed up.

Unfortunately he was instantly punk'd, the MB's saw him, one cast hold person, wizard failed his save, 2nd MB moved in and then started Coup de Gras, completed next round without interruption. Exit bad guys, stage left.

I think that the worst part (for the players) was that th Gnome pally was less than 1/2 way to the other door when the pixie rogue came back to tell him that it was still barred (so maybe the bad guys didn't go that way after all).

Possibly the real villain of the peace was the pixies unexplained conception that the room the MBs were in was somehow trapped in the center, he was so convinced that the rest of the party automatically believed it too. (hence they didn't want to go into the room scared of a trap within the magical darkness).

Coidzor

2011-07-10, 03:16 PM

Perhaps the Quirky Miniboss Squad decided they'd rather not take the chance? They don't know how badly they outranked the wizard. For all they know they got lucky.

...oh, he also wasn't instantly punk'd alone, the OP specifically states that it was 4 rounds before the MBs showed up.

I think it was four rounds.

Let me go check.

EDIT
Yup, the wizard had 4 rounds before the MBs show up, after specifically staying behind in order to wait for them.

Yeah, and he wasn't able to do anything with those 4 rounds to prevent being instantly punked when the baddies did show up.

Thus, not dangerous in the slightest as far as wizards go.

only1doug

2011-07-10, 03:36 PM

Yeah, and he wasn't able to do anything with those 4 rounds to prevent being instantly punked when the baddies did show up.

Thus, not dangerous in the slightest as far as wizards go.

It was very strange, He declared he was holding his action, I'd determined which turn the Baddies were going to move on, we did other PC movement ("you get to here this turn") and then he got bored of holding and acted, immediately before I'd predetermined the Baddies were going to go....

If there had been one other PC with him (like Maybe the Gnome Paladin) then they wouldn't of spent the time Ganking him, they would of carried on running.

If he hadn't been directly blocking their exit they would of taken a different route to avoid him, even after succeeding with Hold Person.

Unfortunately... things worked out for the worst, He was minorly inconvenienced with a visit to the otherworld.

NYYanks6083

2011-07-10, 03:39 PM

PC deaths are part of the game. Honestly as long as you weren't going out of your way to kill that particular PC, or the villains were acting illogically/against their nature just to make sure that PC died, resurrection exists for a reason. Based on the situation described, I don't think you did anything that would be considered bad DMing.

The game is not Player VS DM!

This is very true.

...but...

...the DM makes the monsters and NPCs knowing that the players are going to kill them. The DM might fall in love with a particular monster or NPC. The DM might devote large portions of his or her life creating a complex and entertaining story, a dangerous dungeon, a great villain...The DM might spend hours or days or even weeks designing the perfect world of adventure for the players...

...only to watch the players sweep aside their beloved monster, bypass the trap, utterly undermine the strength of charater possessed by the villain, and burn the world to cinders. And laugh while doing it.

I do and don't sympathize. I've made some pretty epic bosses (literally, the last 3.5 campaign we ran went from level 9-19, and the final four bosses were all lv 22+, safe to say they weren't put together in 10 minutes). They fought the good fight and, predictably, lost it in the end. Was is sad to see them go? A little, but the battles against them were exciting and challenging for the PCs and fun to run for me ("He turned into a what now? with how many heads??" :smalltongue:) I also enjoy making bosses, and have tons of ideas for new ones, so to me it was just an opportunity to make a new, even more insane villian:smallbiggrin:

2-HeadedGiraffe

2011-07-10, 07:34 PM

As a DM, I generally give players a way out, but I have been willing to kill PCs if they do something stupid or sometimes if it just works out that way. For example, the players I had awhile back learned always to make sure someone was standing between the wizard and the monster. In that case, the monster went after the thing hurting it the most, and because that was squishy and no one was protecting it, it died.

Lately, though, I've gotten a taste for just putting them into worse trouble instead of killing them outright. For example, my PCs were fighting on open water, riding aquatic mounts (it was an ocean and island based game). I rolled enough damage to kill a character but decided it was more fun to have that character knocked unconscious and dismounted. Another player had to use his turn diving in after the first character and then healing.

That being said, my general policy is that PCs should die pretty much only if they're doing something stupid and deserve it, or sometimes if it's a major, climatic battle. I generally don't like killing a PC in a random encounter, for example.

Tr011

2011-07-10, 08:10 PM

I just had a player drowned, he was a rogue stepping directly into a pool of water (Reflex DC 20 failed, he was effectually blind so he didn't see it). He had 17 rounds of swim checks (unskilled ofc) to get up and failed most of them by far (so he got as much down as he got up) until he just started to make a constitution save (failed and drowned thereby two rounds later). His party didn't help him for several reasons (one was helpless lying around at some other point in the dungeon after getting 13 Wisdom drained, two stayed outside of the dungeon to guard the horses, and the last one was under attack for the whole 20 rounds by guards, he just didn't made it to get to them over the pool, he was kinda blind, too).

Shadowknight12

2011-07-10, 08:21 PM

I never killed a PC.

But I still have that song stuck in my head.

Curse you.

kharmakazy

2011-07-10, 08:29 PM

Hiro Protagonest

2011-07-10, 08:38 PM

Rogue Shadows

2011-07-10, 08:40 PM

And by RAW, you can't die from drowning anyway.

I'm sorry, what?

But swiming in a pool is only DC 10, and you have to fail by 5 or more to go underwater

Encumberance with an untrained Swim check. It's a killer. I imagine, anyway, that's the reason.

kharmakazy

2011-07-10, 08:48 PM

I'm sorry, what?

Encumberance with an untrained Swim check. It's a killer. I imagine, anyway, that's the reason.

Assuming the Rogue was wearing full plate (why would he?) thats a -12 to swim checks. Assuming he has 0 for his ability modifier to the check... He has to roll a 17 to keep from going underwater, and he only has to roll an 17 once in order to reset his 17 rounds before drowning.

Hiro Protagonest

2011-07-10, 08:51 PM

I'm sorry, what?

Okay, I just looked up the drowning rules. You're right. Though for some reason there's some infinite cure loop for the omnifiscier when he drowns, and people talk abbot the drowning rules being weird.

Rogue Shadows

2011-07-10, 08:52 PM

Assuming the Rogue was wearing full plate (why would he?) thats a -6 to swim checks. Assuming he has 0 for his ability modifier to the check... He has to roll an 11 to keep from going underwater, and he only has to roll an 11 once in order to reset his 17 rounds before drowning.

I was assuming carried loot rather than full plate, but remember that AC penalties are doubled for the purposes of Swim checks. It's a -12, not a -6.

EDIT
Ah, you corrected it. Nevermind then.

There may be some other mitigating factor we haven't been made aware of yet. Ray of Enfeeblement is not condusive to Swim checks, for example...

And anyway, with needing a 17, all a player really needs to fail is bad luck...

kharmakazy

2011-07-10, 08:57 PM

Given 102 seconds to think it through, I would assume that dropping his backpack would have occurred to him.

Rogue Shadows

2011-07-10, 09:14 PM

Given 102 seconds to think it through, I would assume that dropping his backpack would have occurred to him.

*shrugs*

I dunno. I'm just saying it's not beyond the realm of possibility.

Tr011

2011-07-11, 05:20 AM

I know this is IRL and not RAW... but unless he was carrying heavy things or bound somehow he would just float to the top with relative ease...

But swiming in a pool is only DC 10, and you have to fail by 5 or more to go underwater...

The interesting fact was: He had no ACP and no encumberance. And a strength of 9. Meaning a natural 11 got him up for some feet, and only a natural 6 or less got him down. For a fighter in full plate carrying a chest of treasure - OK, it would have been hard. But it was a rogue with just a bit underaverage strength who did just go (sneaky at least) through a magically darkened room instead of crawling through it, searching inch by inch for traps like in The Gamers. Even underwater, with 17 constitution it was way to impossible to roll that many natural 1s and 2s. But he did it.

Rogue Shadows

2011-07-11, 09:32 AM

Even underwater, with 17 constitution it was way to impossible to roll that many natural 1s and 2s. But he did it.

The laws of probability warp around dice. We all know this...

Bob the DM

2011-07-11, 04:43 PM

I love killing my pc's and they know it. I never go out of my way to kill them for no reason (like a tree randomly crushes one of them while walking through the forest), but everyone they fight is actually trying to make them dead and it's always the appropriate course of action for the npc in question, so no one is ever really surprised when it happens either. I think it makes their game life more fulfilling to know that surviving a session is a notch on their belts.

I have a few "rules" that I tell them before the campaign starts so we're all on the same page. I find that they're trick to getting the satisfaction of killing a pc whithout the guilt or hurt player feelings. I make sure they know that:
1. Plot and the DM's favorite NPC's are vulnerable to their actions. ie: Just because someone is a main plot villain doesn't mean that he'll survive any encounter. When the cleric has only 1 greater turning and BLOWS UP the vampire prince of the city instead of just driving him off and killing his men (they needed to roll and 18 to turn him and what were the odds that it would happen on the greater turning roll, DAMN YOU Girshtop!!!). If the NPC's that are supposed to live can and do die, pc's are fair game.
2. Combats/challanges/encounters are not level appropriate, even the ones that are designed to be combats. If the players realize that nothing is actually tailored to their levels/abilities, there's no inherent feeling that they SHOULD live through everything.
3.Many NPC's run away when the fighting gets tough and they think they'll lose. If even the npc's value their lives enough to run away and the pc's see it happen, they can and are required to do that sometimes if they want to live.
4. The campaign is designed for the origionl players to live the whole way through, so there's an added incentive to make a character they'll like and WANT to have live so they tend to play like the characters themselves want to live.
5.The world is "real" and fleshed out. The pc's are just cogs in what's going on around them. Sometimes big, sometimes small, but never so important that they CAN'T die. If they're important to an npc's plans, that npc might try to keep them alive at that time, but there's no garuntee that they'll be able to help when they're needed most and everything is on the line.
6. If they do something really dumb they WILL die. Ie: what actually happened was the rogue was a theif and wanted to run back into a town that was being destoryed by rampaging dinosaurs to loot the magic and jewlery stores. I told him that he could do so if he wanted, but it was very likely he would not live through it. He made it about halfway in, sneaking past quite a few before a T-Rex swallowed him whole. Dralnu remembers that one vividly, I would imagine.
7. I'm trying to kill them. Plot is not trying to kill them, in fact it's usually indifferent to their survival, but I am definately trying to kill them. :). Not in a players versus dm kind of way either, I just like killing them. I'd rather they all live and the stories go from level 1 to epic with the origional pcs, but I do get some (large) satisfaction from killing their characters.
8. When they party asks me what would have happened if they wouldn't have made that saving throw/attack roll/skill check, I tell them in all honesty that they likely would simply have died.
9. I tell them that when I kill one of them I too am sad they're dead. But I'm also kind of mad at them since now with one of them dead I need to think of a way to organically introduce their new character to the party. Although since I'm happy I got to kill one of them, I won't take my frustration out on the rest of the party. :D

For me, that's my magic list. That combination of concepts and principles keeps everyone excited, invested in the game, on the edge of their seats, trying to stay alive and yet not embittered when I do finaly succeed in killing one of them. I find that because the pc's know that I put so much emphasis on having their characters fleshed out and surviving, yet try so hard to kill them that when they do die, they simply accept it as the risks of being an adventurer and play on until they meet some new traveler to bring their party back up to 5. It's all about managing expectations. ;). I also played in a game where 2 people dm'd and while they would share all other duties, only the bloodthirsty one would play out the combats with monsters like beholders 'cause he would REALLY try his damnedest to kill our characters. It made every fight we survived all the sweeter.

Coidzor

2011-07-11, 05:25 PM

7. I'm trying to kill them. Plot is not trying to kill them, in fact it's usually indifferent to their survival, but I am definately trying to kill them. :). Not in a players versus dm kind of way either, I just like killing them. I'd rather they all live and the stories go from level 1 to epic with the origional pcs, but I do get some (large) satisfaction from killing their characters.

Kind of contradictory to say one thing and then that you don't mean it and then that you do in fact mean it. :smallconfused:

Or possibly I'm missing something here...

mootoall

2011-07-11, 05:29 PM

I believe the healing drowning weirdness is that drowning brings your HP to 0, meaning if you're below that you actualy go up to 0, making you able to take actions again.

Hiro Protagonest

2011-07-11, 05:30 PM

1. Plot and the DM's favorite NPC's are vulnerable to their actions. ie: Just because someone is a main plot villain doesn't mean that he'll survive any encounter. When the cleric has only 1 greater turning and BLOWS UP the vampire prince of the city instead of just driving him off and killing his men (they needed to roll and 18 to turn him and what were the odds that it would happen on the greater turning roll, DAMN YOU Girshtop!!!). If the NPC's that are supposed to live can and do die, pc's are fair game.
2. Combats/challanges/encounters are not level appropriate, even the ones that are designed to be combats. If the players realize that nothing is actually tailored to their levels/abilities, there's no inherent feeling that they SHOULD live through everything.

You ARE Drainu's DM! I knew it! Why'd you pit them against an umber hulk at level one anyway?

Girshtop

2011-07-11, 05:37 PM

I love killing my pc's and they know it..If they do something really dumb they WILL die...I'm trying to kill them.

This pretty much sums up our every session. Especially the doing something dumb part.

When they party asks me what would have happened if they wouldn't have made that saving throw/attack roll/skill check, I tell them in all honesty that they likely would simply have died...they simply accept it as the risks of being an adventurer and play on

This really makes the game feel much more realistic (if you can call D&D realistic). It makes us feel great when we succeed, because there's an equal chance (more likely a higher chance) that we might just die instead.

No other game could you have as much fun failing as you can succeeding.

Bob the DM

2011-07-11, 05:40 PM

What I mean is that they know that I won't, as the DM, specifically put in monsters to kill them. An NPC might, through in game means, learn about them (strengths/weaknesses)and design an encounter to kill them, but as the DM, I won't add something in specifically to neuter them and slaughter them just for the sake of it. As me, I just try to use whatever they're fighting to kill them.

DM vs players or DM and player working together to have fun is a false dichotomy. I can WANT them to survive inspite of my efforts to kill them and TRY to kill them in every combat without putting things there specifically to kill them. I can also be sad that an "origional" pc died, yet happy and satisfied that I managed to kill them. Especially since nothing is tailored specifically to kill them. Unless they piss of a wizard bent on domination of a kingdom and is worried they might thwart him and he has access to divination spells. But then HE's the one designing something to kill them, not me. And since that npc is not the dm, he'd only hve access to "in game info" that he can access through skills (gather info) or spells (scrying, know vulnerabilities, contact other plane, etc...), he'll do a less "perfect" job of designing the encounter than if I did it as the DM. :)

Although if he's especially paranoid, he might really err on the side of caution and "go big or go home". Ideally they won't piss that guy off. He still has use for them right now, but we'll see what happens after the next session on sunday. :D

Bob the DM

2011-07-11, 05:47 PM

You ARE Drainu's DM! I knew it! Why'd you pit them against an umber hulk at level one anyway?

I had just finished rereading "Planet Hulk" and wanted to capture that feel. Plus they were in a gladiatorial pit. It seemed like a cool monster. Giant mandibles, tough, burrowing... The fight was designed to entertain the crowd, not the characters. :).

Delcor

2011-07-11, 06:49 PM

My first time DMing I killed a player PC. I haven't DMed again (not because of this, but I still felt bad because they were a first time player)

They were an above average in size party of level 1s, and the first encounter was a mutated ogre (I didn't make this up I was running a DCC). We played with the house rule of if you don't like you heal roll, I will roll for you, but you have to take it. (That swiftly shifted into taking the average rounded up because neither me nor them could roll above a 3 for EVERY SINGLE ROLL). So since I was rolling out in the open, I couldn't hide it when the ogre crited the paladin for max damage at 1 hitpoint (I rolled randomly to see who it hit, because it would have killed anyone with an average hit). He went to -36 hp. He asked if he got a saving throw, I said "Sure, you can roll to see if your liver and large intestine land in the same corner of the cave". We laughed, but I lost a player :( I decided to leave the DMing to my brother after that.

As far as killing players goes:
1. Make it epic. Nobody wants to get hit in the weak point for massive damage by a blind beggar.
2. Be merciful, but don't ignore stupidity. So the situation in the OP, was stupidity.
3. It happens. I had my first high level character death recently. It was an end of a side quest chain boss battle and the orc ranger crited my caster for max damage with a +2 thundering human bane javelin, I also fell into his favored enemy category, and he was buffed and I was already down hp) We toughed through the rest of the battle, went back to town, and bought a true resurrection for 25,000 gp, it was that simple

Rogue Shadows

2011-07-11, 07:23 PM

My first time DMing I killed a player.

:smalleek:
dotdotdot

Delcor

2011-07-11, 07:26 PM

I tried so hard not to kill anyone, but seriously the entire party was rolling worse than a drunken constipated ogre with one leg could drive.

Rogue Shadows

2011-07-11, 07:51 PM

I tried so hard not to kill anyone, but seriously the entire party was rolling worse than a drunken constipated ogre with one leg could drive.

No, no...that's not it.

Lots of people here have killed player characters...I've never yet managed to kill a player yet, though...

:smalltongue:

SgtCarnage92

2011-07-11, 08:20 PM

The first attack of the campaign i was currently running was a 1-hit kill on the party ninja/fighter. The party is walking along the road when a farmer comes running up talking about how something took his son and that it was somewhere out in one of his fields. As the party is moving around out in the field. I had an ankheg burrow out there. When they find the burrow they all start running back to the road. The ninja didn't try to run and ended up getting critted on as the thing burst out of the ground beneath him and dragged his body into the lair.

I felt sort of bad and let him bring in a character identical to the one I killed. (long lost twin sister).

My first PC kill was on a level appropriate fight against a boneclaw. They managed to have it cornered and the cleric didn't heal the monk before he got claws through the face. ( the cleric wouldn't have boosted himself instead of healing the monk, the monk would have most likely survived otherwise).

Hiro Protagonest

2011-07-11, 08:23 PM

The first attack of the campaign i was currently running was a 1-hit kill on the party ninja/fighter.

Serves him right for playing a ninja/fighter. :smalltongue:

SgtCarnage92

2011-07-11, 08:31 PM

Serves him right for playing a ninja/fighter. :smalltongue:

We told him he was going to hate that build. (A DM-fiat boneclaw eventually killed off his twin-sister ninja/fighter and he brought in his cleric with aspirations for sainthood).

Delcor

2011-07-11, 11:32 PM

No, no...that's not it.

Lots of people here have killed player characters...I've never yet managed to kill a player yet, though...

:smalltongue:

Oh oh oh oh I just caught that :smalleek:
I'll just edit that out lol :smalltongue:

CapnVan

2011-07-12, 04:18 AM

My first time DMing I killed a player PC. I haven't DMed again (not because of this, but I still felt bad because they were a first time player)

I confess that I've never understood this, although I hear it all the time.

What reasonably complex game have you succeeded at the first time you tried it? Did you stomp a grandmaster in your first pass at chess? Win some money from serious poker players? Not get beat down the first time you tried a FPS?

Anyone who can't accept that they're not going to "win" the first time they try something probably shouldn't be trying anything for the first time.

kharmakazy

2011-07-12, 05:17 AM

I confess that I've never understood this, although I hear it all the time.

What reasonably complex game have you succeeded at the first time you tried it? Did you stomp a grandmaster in your first pass at chess? Win some money from serious poker players? Not get beat down the first time you tried a FPS?

Anyone who can't accept that they're not going to "win" the first time they try something probably shouldn't be trying anything for the first time.

You know all those hundreds of things they say about first impressions? Yeah. There is a reason for that.

If a player has fun the first time they play, they are much more likely to keep playing over the long haul. If they are traumatized the first time out they might maintain a low opinion of the hobby.

Not advocating immortal newbies or anything, just saying treating new players with a bit of mercy (if only behind the screen) can increase their enjoyment overall.

2-HeadedGiraffe

2011-07-12, 09:23 AM

Serves him right for playing a ninja/fighter. :smalltongue:

That really depends how optimized the rest of the campaign was. I tend towards lower optimization myself, partially because it's what the rest of my group is comfortable with and partially because it lets you try out things that wouldn't be practical if everyone was just playing the best possible builds.

I would never kill a character because they weren't an optimized build. Well, there was that one time, but it wasn't deliberate.

Rogue Shadows

2011-07-12, 10:43 AM

That really depends how optimized the rest of the campaign was. I tend towards lower optimization myself, partially because it's what the rest of my group is comfortable with and partially because it lets you try out things that wouldn't be practical if everyone was just playing the best possible builds.

I don't tend to even look at optimization...Rogue 10/Fighter 5/Thief-Acrobat 5? Coming right up.

Doktor Per

2011-07-12, 10:53 AM

Serves him right for playing a ninja/fighter. :smalltongue:
In a gestalt game I'm running, that's actually a relatively successful combination (granted they just reached level 5) he plays it pretty safe, despite doing insane things and gets past most of the magic paranoia that people have by staying almost completely mundane. On killing, I have done... two party wipe outs in my career. And a single stray.

The stray kill was a Fighter/Warlock, who killed his hostage when faced with one of the most powerful clerics in a thousand mile radius. Which wasn't a very nice death, but the player loved it. Went out in a blaze of glory like a real outlaw. Now he's going to roll some Fighter/Hextor Cleric, I'm not sure he realizes the full potential yet, as he's young in the art of Dungeons vs. Dungeons.

I don't get thrills from killing my players, but I do my best within the frame of what is reasonable to make their lives hard. And sometimes that's giving just to lull them into a false sense of security. You don't have to be a prink to be a DM, but it helps. :smalltongue:

big teej

2011-07-12, 12:21 PM

This kind of reminds me when I killed 3 out of 8 players with a handful of Tiny Vipers.

explain....
please

Anderlith

2011-07-12, 01:17 PM

explain....
please

(Version 3.5) Well they were level one & trying to cross a river (knee deep, no real threat of drowning) & when they entered the water I had a five or six vipers attack them. I thought that if they got into serious trouble they would just climb out of the river, but they didn't. They kept missing the snakes AC & taking Con damage from the poison. Three of them died fighting Tiny Snakes in knee deep water before they were able to kill them all.

It should be noted that they did not have a cleric or a wizard. They were all playing fighters & rogues & such (They thought that could get by without them since there were eight of them even though they were mundane classes)

Doktor Per

2011-07-12, 01:32 PM

Hahahahahahaha! They funking deserved it.

You at least learn use magic device and stack up on the necessary items. :smallbiggrin:

Anderlith

2011-07-12, 01:54 PM

I killed another one of them in a later encounter with an undead skeleton archer on top of a wall. Got to love DR 5/piercing when you are in a bow fight

Doktor Per

2011-07-12, 02:34 PM

I once killed an 8th level party of 4 with nothing but a hole in a brickwall, an 8th level cleric and two sixth level halfling rogues with wands of fireball.

They were regenerating, incantatrixin' and dominating at will sorts of folk. Where everything I had thrown at them just got generally ripped apart without a chance to even punch through.

Candleke

2011-07-12, 05:39 PM

My first time dming i killed everyone in the party at least once, but i was way to generous i told them they were going to die then had the npc give them basically a magical adrenaline shot(homebrew) should have tacked a negative level de-buff on that thing.

Anyway I had one of my pc's argue not only with the verdant prince(mafia style boss of a bunch of fey who was running this casino in a patch a woods they needed to get through) and argue with me at the same time while her boyfriend also a pc kept trying to hint to her that she shouldn't argue with this guy. I didn't kill her even when throughout the entire campaign she would argue with npc's/me.

I should have had rocks fall on her character......

Delcor

2011-07-12, 08:11 PM

I confess that I've never understood this, although I hear it all the time.

What reasonably complex game have you succeeded at the first time you tried it? Did you stomp a grandmaster in your first pass at chess? Win some money from serious poker players? Not get beat down the first time you tried a FPS?

Anyone who can't accept that they're not going to "win" the first time they try something probably shouldn't be trying anything for the first time.

Good point, said player had fun, but it wasn't really his thing he decided.

I fell victim to this also. That is, not understanding new system and TPKing as a result. It was my groups first time playing pathfinder, and we didn't know that evil clerics could do a 2d6 burst no save about 5 times a day, so our party of level 1s charged in and attempted to hit the AC 18 while taking 2d6 a round, the highest hp in the party was 12. So it didn't take long. So you have a good point about not winning at a new complex system your first time.

PS: I got the crap knocked out of me at my first FPS :smallbiggrin:

Squiggles

2011-07-12, 08:21 PM

I had a pretty stingy cleric in my last campaign but I had been quite liberal in handing out healing potions in order to help them survive. Well my PC's had jumped into a river running through a dungeon and took a mix of subdual damage and bludgeoning damage from being tossed about inside the tubes before they were let out into a spillway. So they haul themselves out of the water and sit down on the shore for a few minutes to dry out their gear, make sure everyone arrived in one piece, and to try to divine where in the world they are now. They pick themselves up, repack their gear and start off down the tunnel when they come up against the 2 Gauth (CR6 mini beholders) I had stationed there are sentries. Well come to find out the cleric neglected to heal anyone so the critical Inflict Light Wounds I landed on the Wizard took him to -11...

We run with the whole 'You say it, you do it' schtick so I just had to roll with it. Needless to say the Cleric decided to pay more attention to his traveling companions and I chart my players health more closely.

I didn't feel bad about killing him. It happened. *shrug*

2-HeadedGiraffe

2011-07-13, 12:52 PM

(Version 3.5) Well they were level one & trying to cross a river (knee deep, no real threat of drowning) & when they entered the water I had a five or six vipers attack them. I thought that if they got into serious trouble they would just climb out of the river, but they didn't. They kept missing the snakes AC & taking Con damage from the poison. Three of them died fighting Tiny Snakes in knee deep water before they were able to kill them all.

It should be noted that they did not have a cleric or a wizard. They were all playing fighters & rogues & such (They thought that could get by without them since there were eight of them even though they were mundane classes)

Most groups I've played in pretty much have the assumption that if the DM throws it at them, they're supposed to kill it. Very rarely have I seen a group actually decide to run away even from a very dangerous combat situation. It sounds like that mindset is a good bit of what got them killed.

Bob the DM

2011-07-13, 05:24 PM

Most groups I've played in pretty much have the assumption that if the DM throws it at them, they're supposed to kill it. Very rarely have I seen a group actually decide to run away even from a very dangerous combat situation. It sounds like that mindset is a good bit of what got them killed.

That is a combination of the DM and players together being at fault.
See rule 2: At the begining of the campaign the DM must repeatedly strees that: "2. Combats/challanges/encounters are not level appropriate, even the ones that are designed to be combats. If the players realize that nothing is actually tailored to their levels/abilities, there's no inherent feeling that they SHOULD live through everything."
Also, the DM MUST follow rule 3: "3.Many NPC's run away when the fighting gets tough and they think they'll lose. If even the npc's value their lives enough to run away and the pc's see it happen, they can and are required to do that sometimes if they want to live.". While some creatures like boars or wolverines and some humanoids, like clerics of the God of Death who wouldn't mind dieing, will fight to the death, unless the DM shows at least some npcs fleeing instead of dieing, the players will not internalize that running away is reasonable, intelligent and sometimes appropriate.

2-HeadedGiraffe

2011-07-14, 10:32 AM

That is a combination of the DM and players together being at fault.
See rule 2: At the begining of the campaign the DM must repeatedly strees that: "2. Combats/challanges/encounters are not level appropriate, even the ones that are designed to be combats. If the players realize that nothing is actually tailored to their levels/abilities, there's no inherent feeling that they SHOULD live through everything."
Also, the DM MUST follow rule 3: "3.Many NPC's run away when the fighting gets tough and they think they'll lose. If even the npc's value their lives enough to run away and the pc's see it happen, they can and are required to do that sometimes if they want to live.". While some creatures like boars or wolverines and some humanoids, like clerics of the God of Death who wouldn't mind dieing, will fight to the death, unless the DM shows at least some npcs fleeing instead of dieing, the players will not internalize that running away is reasonable, intelligent and sometimes appropriate.

I read the rules you use, yes, and they're interesting, but they're not common assumptions in most groups, at least not the ones I've been in. I wouldn't necessarily call it a "fault" as much as a difference in playing styles. In this case, though, it seems the players underestimated the danger, but, based on the assumptions they probably had from other games they'd played, didn't realize it would have been a good time to beat a retreat.