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View Full Version : Properly challenging high-level melee



WarKitty
2011-07-08, 05:41 PM
This is something that came up in my last group. They tend to play a mix of melee and ranged characters, with few to no mages in the group. Thing is, I'm not sure how to properly challenge them at higher levels. Everyone gets bored with the melee slugfests, but they really can't handle casters unless I play them stupidly - in which case the caster dies in a round.

Edit: If we ever get back to playing, we have a fighter, a rogue, and a ranger, all at level 13.

BinaryMage
2011-07-08, 06:00 PM
That's certainly an interesting group composition. Usually what I see tends to the opposite end. (But those groups don't have problems. :smallbiggrin:)

A couple of ideas for you:
1) Have an NPC primary caster join their party. That would make it easier to challenge them and might encourage some of your players to dabble in casting.
2) You have a rogue? Make sure lots of UMD items (wands, staffs, etc) are available. While a rogue can't fill the role of a wizard, with a high UMD and the right items they could certainly have some semblance of casting ability.
3) You can use certain types of casters to fight the party intelligently without them dying, at least immediately. Some sort of conjurer with a summoning focus would work, as would a mixed or secondary caster such as an eldritch knight.
4) This is the most risky option, but it's also the most realistic. Don't choose the fights specifically for your group. Just roll or choose monsters arbitrarily, and see how your group does. If they die, they'll learn. Who knows, maybe they'll come up with an elaborate anti-caster strategy.

DiBastet
2011-07-08, 06:16 PM
Use interesting monsters. "Interesting" monster are monsters with dynamic abilities and such things, like the ones of the later monster manuals, instead of the "sla only" monsters of the older ones. Maybe a 4e creature or two?

WarKitty
2011-07-08, 06:20 PM
I'm not sure any of them have UMD either. The rogue is a stealth-focused TWF/sneak attack build. Optimized they are not. And our skillmonkey caster (alchemist) quit, along with our cleric.

BinaryMage
2011-07-08, 06:43 PM
I'm not sure any of them have UMD either. The rogue is a stealth-focused TWF/sneak attack build. Optimized they are not. And our skillmonkey caster (alchemist) quit, along with our cleric.

Well, that removes my second suggestion, I suppose. Are your players just violently opposed to casters? In my opinion they're a lot more fun to play than melee classes.

WarKitty
2011-07-08, 06:49 PM
Well, that removes my second suggestion, I suppose. Are your players just violently opposed to casters? In my opinion they're a lot more fun to play than melee classes.

It's more that we lost all our casters and no one wants to reroll when they have good characters.

BinaryMage
2011-07-08, 07:04 PM
It's more that we lost all our casters and no one wants to reroll when they have good characters.

Yeah, I can understand that sentiment.

Maybe you could recruit another player? You could definitely be fine with one caster, probably a cloistered cleric would work the best.

Tengu_temp
2011-07-08, 07:06 PM
Wrong subforum.

Gabe the Bard
2011-07-08, 07:46 PM
You could develop some monsters that have to be defeated in an interesting way besides just hitting them until they die, like multi-headed Lernaean monsters, not necessarily hydras, that can't be killed unless its heads are sundered.

And if their really high-level, you could start looking at some of the lower CR monsters in the epic handbook, such as Mithral golems or very young Prismatic Dragons.

Jude_H
2011-07-08, 07:56 PM
There might be a bit of middle ground between a wizard juggling a half dozen contingent spells and a wizard who only casts lightning bolt.

Casters with dominant schticks tend to be both more memorable and more manageable for the party. A caster exclusively focused on brains/puppets/wind/tentacles/finches/whatever is sure to have enough tricks to be challenging, and is going to seem more unique than typical CO wizards.

You can also make fights more interesting by introducing elements to the terrain or circumstances that affect the outcome. Maybe the fight takes place on a ship beelining toward the Gaping Void to the Abyss, maybe the fight takes place between a cliff and an approaching wall of lava, maybe the combatants have to tiptoe quietly across a cavern sleeping Wyrms, maybe the Fiend of Possession is inside the Good and Just King.

As has been said, you'd probably do best to avoid bruiser monsters with high AC/HP defenses and strictly damage attack options, except as mooks to more interesting villains.

BinaryMage
2011-07-08, 07:57 PM
And if their really high-level, you could start looking at some of the lower CR monsters in the epic handbook, such as Mithral golems or very young Prismatic Dragons.

They're not. OP said level 13, which I think is a bit too low for ELH stuff. :smallbiggrin: