Building first MoI (Incarnate) Character

[Essence_of_War]

I decided to sit down and figure out the Incarnum system now that I finally have access to the book, and I have to say, I'm very pleased with it.

I've skimmed some of the handbooks, and wanted to try putting together a character to see how all the parts...fit together...so to speak, and maybe I'll get a chance to use it in an upcoming 1-shot with my group!

I was looking carefully at the Lawful Incarnate to be a melee tank sort of character, and despite their poor BAB, they seem to have a number of ways to boost their melee attack rolls. The only problem being that they seem to lack ways to increase their melee damage, and it is tough to draw the enemy's attention if they don't feel threatened by you :smallsmile:

Obviously Power Attack is a good choice for boosting damage, but is Cobalt Power efficient enough to burn a feat on also?

Some other feats that looked very useful were:
1) Split Chakra (at high level, w/Soul so I can use my Soul Bind and keep wearing sweet armor!)
2a) Shape Soulmeld - for Blink Shirt!
2b) Sun School - to get free attacks when teleporting!
3) Improved Essentia Capacity - right now my only feat that needs invested essentia is Cobalt Power, is it worth checking out the save boost feats?
4) Expanded Soulmeld Capacity - Seems more or less mandatory? I like the flexibility.
5) Rapid Meldshaping - the ability to switch out hats in a crunch seems useful. Is there anyway to get around the no-binding to chakra restriction?
6) Soulsight - Seems thematically appropriate, but mechanically somewhat underwhelming
7) Bonus Essentia - my understanding is that one can never have too much essentia.
8) Devotion Feats (w/ a cleric dip? Law/Knowledge/Travel devotions all look attractive)

We play with a few rule variants but the major ones are:
1) Feats every odd level
2) Stat point every even level (with a restriction of not pumping the same stat at consecutive even levels)
3) LA Buyoff
4) Responsibility Clause: Most sourcebooks, but not dragon/dungeon material, are available if they're being used responsibly.

As far as races go, I was looking at Azurin? Are there much better choices?

Finally, magic item wise:
1) Is there any way, outside of Split Chakra feat, to use magic items and chakra binds at the same body slots?
2) Is it possible to put other weapon enhancements/enchantments on my Incarnum Weapon? I feel like this is in the spirit of the rules, but doesn't seem to be supported by their letter.

[Z3ro]

So I'll throw out some ideas for you; take what looks interesting, leave the rest.


Obviously Power Attack is a good choice for boosting damage, but is Cobalt Power efficient enough to burn a feat on also?
I'd disagree; there's plenty of ways Incarnates can boost damage, and their low BAB limits power attacking. Look into bluesteel bracers and incarnate weapon. Alternatively, one of my favorites, take shape soulmeld (mauling guantlets) for huge damage unarmed attacks.


Some other feats that looked very useful were:
1) Split Chakra (at high level, w/Soul so I can use my Soul Bind and keep wearing sweet armor!) Only at very high level


2a) Shape Soulmeld - for Blink Shirt!
2b) Sun School - to get free attacks when teleporting!
One of the better totemist soulmelds

3) Improved Essentia Capacity - right now my only feat that needs invested essentia is Cobalt Power, is it worth checking out the save boost feats?The save feats are kind of a waste, I'd skip them

4) Expanded Soulmeld Capacity - Seems more or less mandatory? I like the flexibility.Yup, pretty much the incarnates natural spell

7) Bonus Essentia - my understanding is that one can never have too much essentia.Especially for an incarnate, bonus essentia is gold.

8) Devotion Feats (w/ a cleric dip? Law/Knowledge/Travel devotions all look attractive)Eh, with the extra feats you list they might be okay, but remember that Incarnates, despite being skill monkeys, don't actually get that many skill points.


As far as races go, I was looking at Azurin? Are there much better choices?
Azurin is my go-to race for Incarnum

Finally, magic item wise:
1) Is there any way, outside of Split Chakra feat, to use magic items and chakra binds at the same body slots?
Well, there's plenty of Incarnum melds with great abilities that don't need to be bound. And probably not what you're looking for, but there's the item that expands whatever you put in it's slot by 1 essentia.

2) Is it possible to put other weapon enhancements/enchantments on my Incarnum Weapon? I feel like this is in the spirit of the rules, but doesn't seem to be supported by their letter.
Not that I know of. It's still a good bind for dealing damage, as you can make it a +8 weapon by the end, though there are better.

[Draz74]

And probably not what you're looking for, but there's the item that expands whatever you put in it's slot by 1 essentia.

The Incarnum Focus? It probably is what you're looking for, if your DM will let you combine it with another magic item in the same slot (using these rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm#addingNewAbilities)).

[Essence_of_War]

The save feats are kind of a waste, I'd skip them.

So other than Cobalt Power to combine with Power Attack, what sort of essentia investment feats are good ones to check out?

[Z3ro]

The Incarnum Focus? It probably is what you're looking for, if your DM will let you combine it with another magic item in the same slot (using these rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm#addingNewAbilities)).
Those would be the ones.

So other than Cobalt Power to combine with Power Attack, what sort of essentia investment feats are good ones to check out?
I'd leave out cobalt power; like I said, with the Incarnate's low bab power attack really lags behind for them. The only good ones for a melee character are cobalt rage, and maybe cobalt charge (maybe). The rest are just too meh to be worth a feat that could be spent on other (better) essentia feats.

[Glimbur]

You can add a Weapon Crystal from MiC to your Incarnate Weapon. It's not as flexible as a real enchantment, but it's something.

Lightning Gauntlets can add some extra damage to your attacks, but it takes a bind and only works 1/round. By the time you can afford to spend a bind on this you probably have better options.

Shape Soulmeld: Thunderstep Boots can make your charges nastier. If you can afford to bind them too, and are using an Incarnate Weapon bound to your arms, you can provoke two saves. The DC's don't scale all that well though.

With the Magesight Spectacles you could UMD an item of Divine Power, but that can be expensive both in terms of gold and buff rounds.

I don't really like any of the essentia investment feats... I prefer to be able to move my essentia around freely.

Azurin is a solid race for Incarnum.

[Essence_of_War]

Reading over the lightning gauntlets, I am not a huge fan.

The thunderstep boots though. Those have some serious potential! :smallcool:

[Big Fau]

The Incarnum Focus? It probably is what you're looking for, if your DM will let you combine it with another magic item in the same slot (using these rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm#addingNewAbilities)).

Note: The Incarnum Foci in the MoI are overpriced. The MiC repriced them.


Also pick up an Essentia Helm (MiC). Its like the Incarnate capstone, but for only a few rounds, and only one soulmeld (but its dirt cheap).

[Essence_of_War]

Couple of other questions that have come up:

Totemists:
1) Totemists seem to have a glaring will save weak point, is there a usual method for getting some will save defense here? I was thinking the incarnum feat for will saves might be helpful, but it seems like an essentia sponge...

2) Are there any conventions regarding which of a totemists attacks are his primary or his secondary? Is the designation arbitrary?

3) Related to 2), do most totemists take multiattack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm) to get a free +3 to all of their numerous secondary attacks? Or is this an inefficient use of feats?

Soulborn:
I almost threw up in my mouth when I examined the meldshaping progression for this guy.

Has anyone used Person_Man's fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119121) in a game? How does it fare for party balance?

Incarnate/General:
Is there any way to increase the number of available chakra binds? I was hoping for more like 6-10 by 20th level rather than 5 :smallfrown:

I might post a first build later today/tomorrow, hopefully someone could give me a few pointers on it :smallsmile:

[Cieyrin]

Couple of other questions that have come up:

Totemists:
1) Totemists seem to have a glaring will save weak point, is there a usual method for getting some will save defense here? I was thinking the incarnum feat for will saves might be helpful, but it seems like an essentia sponge...

Enter {scrubbed link}Steadfast Determination, melee's answer to weak Will saves.


2) Are there any conventions regarding which of a totemists attacks are his primary or his secondary? Is the designation arbitrary?

3) Related to 2), do most totemists take {scrubbed link}multiattack to get a free +3 to all of their numerous secondary attacks? Or is this an inefficient use of feats?

If the soulmeld doesn't say, choose one set as your primary (Gorillan Arms or whatever) and the rest are secondary, just like any other monster. As for Multiattack, it may be worthwhile depending on how many secondaries you normally play with and your attack bonus. If its just one, then probably not. If you have lots, that spreads out the love quite nicely and makes you that much more effective. You might even want {scrubbed link}Improved Multiattack, though that's kinda getting into diminishing returns.


Soulborn:
I almost threw up in my mouth when I examined the meldshaping progression for this guy.

Has anyone used Person_Man's fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119121) in a game? How does it fare for party balance?

Yeah, the original is pretty bad. I haven't read Person_Man's fix before today, so I can't say much on its balance.

[Glimbur]

By the book Soulborn is sad. I've also made a fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127348), and I don't know if PersonMan's or my fix is better.

By my reading, one could take the Open X Chakra feats to gain extra chakra binds which can only be used on the specified chakra. This isn't a universal reading, but it seems about balanced to me.

I like multiattack on my totemists, but if you're focusing on Manticore Belt it's unnecessary. As an aside, my favorite totemist soulmeld is the Wormtail Belt. Look at how much natural armor you can get, especially at low level.

Edit: Added link to my soulborn fix.

[Essence_of_War]

Ah!

So the generous reading of the "Open Chakra" line gives me an additional chakra bind that can be used ONLY for that chakra.

Certainly worth considering for 1-2 feat investment for something that I always need bound in a particular spot.

Want to link to your fix Glimbur? I'd be delighted to check it out too.

[Lapak]

Totemists:
1) Totemists seem to have a glaring will save weak point, is there a usual method for getting some will save defense here? I was thinking the incarnum feat for will saves might be helpful, but it seems like an essentia sponge...Concentration appears to be a class skill for Totemists, so you could either take the Martial Study feat or dip a level in Swordsage/Warblade to pick up Moment of Perfect Mind and swap out a Will save for a Concentration check.

Not sure whether the feat or the dip would serve you better - Incarnum users draw a lot of benefit from feats, so a dip might actually be more cost-effective in some ways.

[Essence_of_War]

Good idea!

I think a 1-level dip in either or both of Warblade, around ECL5, and Crusader around ECL 8 could be really good.

The Warblade gets you MoPM and Emerald Razor so you can power attack for lots if you need to. The Crusader can get you Thicket of Blades which lets you keep people close to you for full natural attacking fun.

Edit:
In fact this is making me very interested in gestalt. The kind of havoc an incarnate or totemist // Warblade/Crusder could wreak seems pretty hilarious!

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Cleric Dip + Travel Devotion + Blink Shirt (bound to Totem for move-action teleportation) + Shadowpounce = LOTS of nova-potential. Each turn attempt lets you get a Move action, which means, with Shadow Pounce, you have a number of FULL ATTACKS equal to your number of turn attempts. Extra Turning and Cracksticks galore!

Improved Natural Attack might be good if you want to go with Gorrillion Arms/Sphinx Claws as well...

[Big Fau]

Cleric Dip + Travel Devotion + Blink Shirt (bound to Totem for move-action teleportation) + Shadowpounce = LOTS of nova-potential. Each turn attempt lets you get a Move action, which means, with Shadow Pounce, you have a number of FULL ATTACKS equal to your number of turn attempts. Extra Turning and Cracksticks galore!

Improved Natural Attack might be good if you want to go with Gorrillion Arms/Sphinx Claws as well...

Travel devotion does not work that way.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Travel devotion does not work that way.

Blow turn attempt to gain move action. Use move action to blink. Gain full attack.

How does it not work that way?

[Big Fau]

Blow turn attempt to gain move action. Use move action to blink. Gain full attack.

How does it not work that way?

Because TD doesn't grant move actions.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Because TD doesn't grant move actions.

Ahh, I see that now. I was thinking 'move action' rather than 'move your base speed'...

Oh well, there's still RKV + WRT + Blink Shirt to gain stupid number of full attacks...

[MeeposFire]

Besides doesn't blink shirt use dimensional door which prevents you from taking actions after you use it?

[Essence_of_War]

It does indeed.

However, you can still use it + sun school to do some tele-bamf-ing.

It will only be with one of your attacks though :smallfrown:

[MeeposFire]

I like using the two teleport maneuvers from shadow that are standard and swift action and use those two first in a round and then use the move action to use the blink shirt for some legit 3 sets of full attacks.

[Essence_of_War]

Does that give you full attacks though?

I thought Sun School only gave you a single attack at your highest value.

[Cieyrin]

Does that give you full attacks though?

I thought Sun School only gave you a single attack at your highest value.

{scrubbed link}Sun School

It does only give one attack. You may be able to boost it with Mongoose boosts, though.

[Draz74]

Ahh, I see that now. I was thinking 'move action' rather than 'move your base speed'...

Oh well, there's still RKV + WRT + Blink Shirt to gain stupid number of full attacks...

Not only that, it also still requires you to use a swift action for your movement. So even if it said "move action" it wouldn't let you use Blink Shirt more than once a round (barring RKV madness).

[Essence_of_War]

So the build, I'm looking at presently is Dragonborn Dwarf Incarnate/Ironsoul Forgemaster. Potentially with a 1-level dip in Crusader or Fighter to get Heavy Armor Proficiency so I can make myself a sweet suit of Adamantine Full Plate and use it without ACP.

Ironsoul Forgemaster Question: Has anyone tried allowing the "Weapon Bond" class feature or apply to the "Incarnum Weapon" soulmeld? It seems fluffwise that this is a reasonable extrapolation, but I wanted to make sure it wasn't game breaking before I thought about floating it to my DM.

[Cieyrin]

So the build, I'm looking at presently is Dragonborn Dwarf Incarnate/Ironsoul Forgemaster. Potentially with a 1-level dip in Crusader or Fighter to get Heavy Armor Proficiency so I can make myself a sweet suit of Adamantine Full Plate and use it without ACP.

Ironsoul Forgemaster Question: Has anyone tried allowing the "Weapon Bond" class feature or apply to the "Incarnum Weapon" soulmeld? It seems fluffwise that this is a reasonable extrapolation, but I wanted to make sure it wasn't game breaking before I thought about floating it to my DM.

Don't forget to make it Dwarvencraft (RoS)! Harder to sunder that way and all around more durable. Get Durable (DS) to keep it from rust monster accidents.

For Weapon Bond, the thing is Ironsoul Forgemaster only gets his stuff to apply to stuff he's made, which an Incarnate Weapon isn't. I've tended to find Incarnate Weapon loses steam after early levels but that's me. If I'm making an ISFM, I expect to have time to craft myself some arms and armor of doom, much like if I was an Artificer, though their given levels of doom may vary.

[Essence_of_War]

So here is a sketch for a Lawful Incarnate/ISFM

Dragonborn Dwarf - 32 PB
Base Stats: Str 16 Dex 10(12) Con 20(16) Int 12 Wis 10 Cha 8 (10)
Incarnate 1-5/ISFM1-3/Crusader1/ISFM4-10/Incarnate 6-9

Feats:
1 - Power Attack
3 - Expanded Soulmeld Capacity
6 - Bonus Essentia
9 - Improved Sunder
12 - Combat Brute
15 - Expanded Soulmeld Capacity
18 - Open Chakra(greater) (DM allows it to give an extra chakra bind)

(I'm aware that charging is probably a higher damage option, neither my DM nor I find Shock Trooper particularly palatable)

Maneuvers known (all readied) (2 granted)
1 - Charging Minotaur (SD)
2 - Crusader's Strike (DS)
3 - Leading the Attack (WR)
4 - Battle Leader's Charge (WR)
5 - White Raven Tactics (WR)

Stances known:
Thicket of Blades

Adventuring Day Soulmelds (8 melds)(6 binds) (24 essentia)

Crown - Crystal Helm(b)
Feet - Impulse Boosts (b)
Hands -
Arms - Bluesteel Bracers(b)
Brow -
Shoulders -
Throat -
Waist - Vitality Belt(b)
Heart - Strongheart Vest (b)
Soul - Incarnate Avatar

Suggestions on the rest of the soulmelds? I was planning to use Incarnate Weapon at lower levels until Weapon Bond comes online, but later on probably free up the slot for something else.

I think the Crusader level gives some nice options w/ regards to Tower Shield and Heavy Armor use as well as some fun maneuvers. It cuts me off from the soul chakra at 20th, but I don't think we'll get to 20th, or if we do we certainly won't spend much time there. Does this seem like a reasonable multiclass choice?

Double Chakra? I was considering getting it so I could use Incarnate Weapon and Bluesteel Bracers simultaneously, but by the time it's an option (9th) I feel like I've already missed most of the window for its usefulness.

[Cieyrin]

Combat Brute is still a good feat, let no one tell you different. It works better when it's the second part of the Shock Trooper One-Two Punch but it works just as well by itself.

Double Chakra keeps its staying power, though most people tend to use it on the Totem chakra. On an Incarnate, it becomes a matter of determining what to use it with. As for losing Soul, most of Soul binds aren't that great, anyways.