Party vs army

[Ormur]

I would appreciate it if my players refrained from reading this thread closely.

Running big battles in D&D is generally not a very good idea but when the main enemy of the campaign is essentially an entire kingdom I can foresee situations where the PC are nevertheless going to find themselves up against very large numbers of lower level enemies.

I don't meant to make my players re-enact the battle of Thermopylae but a D&D army might have a company dedicated to dealing with powerful special forces (like murderous hobos) through strenght of numbers because the high level NPCs are busy running the country (waiting for a suitably plot-relevant moment to fight boss battles).

Let's say you have a typical four member party of level 11-13 balanced around tier 3. Are there any builds, rules and tactics that might allow an army company of mostly mooks, a single commander close the PC level and a handful of officers somewhere in-between to challenge that?

Lets say there are 200 second level soldiers (fighters, rogues or other tier-4 and below martial classes) with commanders of higher tier martial or halfcaster classes (ToB, bards, gishes) up to the captain himself who's around level 11. They might have a sprinkling of fullcasters as support (maybe 10 from level 1-9). They've been trained in tactics to counter small groups or individuals of high level so they might know what to expect. Are there any such economical army compositions that could pose a danger?

They'd need a way to find the threat and do something that had a chance of neutralizing it, countering invisibility, targeting flying enemies, protecting against area effects and so forth. I imagine pumping to-hit bonuses for the mooks would be pointless against ACs in the 30s so we'd have to assume only one in twenty of their attacks would actually hit, could the few mid-level officers do something to make them count? I know a Schrödinger wizard could neutralise all such pitiful attempts of defiance but an unprepared party might be a different story.

[OracleofSilence]

i know that on these boards, bringing such up can mean swift and pointy death but have you looked at the political theories of Frank and K? Namely the interactions of heroes and society. Armies are only useful against armies, because heroes are faster, are more powerful, and aren't constrained by the plot. Any hero worth his salt can just teleport into the palace, massacre the royal guard, kill the king, loot and pillage, and then go the the neighboring kingdom and do the same thing, all while using a careful application of the rules to show that they should gain XP for everyone in the army because they were "defeated:

[Zonugal]

I think tactics could win it for the army. Instead of a typical mob mentatlity approach where-in any mage could lay down some battlefield spells, have the army split off into very small groups which attempt to flank the party (starting off with the melee & skill-monkeys, than the casters). With enough force those who aren't casters should be over-run through attrition which leaves the mages in dire numbers.

But what am I saying, even one well-played caster is probably enough for the army through summoning & such.

[Lonely Tylenol]

I agree that this is something that should be done sparingly (it is something that is only occurring twice as written in my campaign, thrice if my PCs create a diplomatic crisis through their actions), but what I did for my level 10 PC party was create a General with a Bard 5/Cavalier 1/Battle Herald 7 (you can find Cavalier and Battle Herald here (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/)) with full Leadership (with a high CHA modifier and a bunch of other modifiers, her Leadership was as a 25th-level character) who focused on passive buffs through banners and auras, plus active buffs with commands and Bardic music. Her cohort was a captain who was a Cavalier 4/Bard 1/Battle Herald 6, who had stronger banners but weaker Bardic supports (they buffed different areas), and then the different levels were broken down into different roles. In total, the encounter had:

Leader: General Asay (Bard 5/Cavalier 1/Battle Herald 7)
Cohort: Captain Tarsus (Bard 1/Cavalier 4/Battle Herald 6)
2x Level 6: Captains (Cavalier 6)
2x Level 5: Lieutenants (Ranger 5)
4x Level 4: Defenders (Paladin 4)
7x Level 3: Enchanters (Wizard 3)
13x Level 2: Medics (Cleric 2)
135x Level 1: 90x Soldiers (Fighter 1) and 45x Archers (Fighter 1)... Give or take.

General Asay and Captain Tarsus buffed everyone with Battle Herald, Bard and Cavalier features; the two unnamed Captains buffed everyone with Cavalier features; the two Lieutenants buffed everyone with the Hunter's Bond feature (Pathfinder alternative to the animal companion); Paladins smacked things; Enchanters applied minor buffs (actually, AoEs pretty much took them out right off); Medics healed and applied buffs; and the soldiers and archers were the "strength in numbers" meat. The result was that the party actually did get smacked around in the playtesting, and by dividing the forces into four waves (think of it as the guys further out taking longer to converge upon the same point from all sides, trapping them in a Wall of Stone square the Cleric had made and forcing them into a defensive position) the board didn't get too crowded and the encounter stayed CR-appropriate.

Turns did take forever, though.

Had I written this encounter in 3.5 (and, in fact, I am) I would have looked to a particular PrC combination that I can't recall offhand, which allows you to share the highest BAB in the group with every allied member within a certain range, and used that as the leader (with the Battle Herald build that is currently the General as the cohort instead); I'd probably also make the Wizards stronger, or something, for access to buffs like Haste and Slow. I might also get more creative with the base class composition, but essentially this.

This can scale up to higher ECL parties by forming larger groups.

[Yahzi]

Are there any builds, rules and tactics that might allow an army company of mostly mooks, a single commander close the PC level and a handful of officers somewhere in-between to challenge that?
1. Strategy. Use your numbers to attack more targets than the players can defend - their families, their friends, etc. Oh wait, your murderous hobos don't have families. Makes them rather indistinguishable from monsters, doesn't it.

2. Gear. A 1st level cleric can control 20 HD of Undead - if somebody gives him a 5th level scroll and lends him a Bead of Karma for a day. For complete details on how an 11th lvl wizard and cleric can make a fearsome force out of Goblins, see Goblins of Maareshi (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product_info.php?products_id=64425&filters=0_0_0_0&manufacturers_id=2849)(it's a free download).

3. Organization. Here are a bunch of army ideas based on a 9th level commander: The Book of Armies (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37056).

4. Archery.

5. Barbarians. 18 STR + Rage + Weapon Focus + Magic Weapon + 2 levels = +10 to hit. From a 2nd level mook (of course he'll have nothing for hps or ac but who cares? He doesn't!) Toss in a bard for more.

6. Traps. That's what castles are for. Force them to come to you one at a time, shoot at them from behind iron grates or murder holes, use pit traps and boiling oil, etc.

7. Grappling. Give them man-catchers or nets and pile on!

8. Lances. Spirited Charger can make a lance do 3x damage, it attacks at reach, and with Ride-by so the PC doesn't get an attack. Put them in a field and let them eat 20 lance attacks without a chance to respond. Maybe you'll get lucky.

[SITB]

Possibly not quite as useful suggestion, but the diffrence between the PC and the army are numbers (and thus possibly action economy). So throwing debuffs that allow no save and stack (Ray of Exhaustion and the like) would probably be a good start.

[JaronK]

Simple arrow volleys can be brutal against small groups when bards get in on the action... it's possible with just 6 bards to add 2+10d6 damage to all attacks, and a group of soldiers can force a series of DC 15 reflex saves to avoid that damage even at very long range. That can easily take out higher level enemies.

Jaron

[LansXero]

At the moment Im facing a similar situation, and considering using Warhammer Fantasy rules (converting the PC stats to their equivalents) to resolve any major encounters. My reasoning is that while they may way better than rank and file troops, if they alone survive and another 1000 of allied troops die, then its still a loss. So I plan on giving them each a handful of units to control and try to keep safe xD

[Bob the DM]

Another benefit the army has is it won't get tired fighting 4 people. I'd imagine that once the battle proper is joined, a chracter can keep up the frenetic pace of constant combat for 1 or 2xCon rounds befor starting to have to make stamina checks. Treat long combat like running. They'll be up against the clock before they have to start making checks and it'll force them to be creative and try to force breaks in the fighting, while the juggenaught that is the entire army they're facing just keeps comming.

Edit: I almost forgot... Magic Missile. The great equilizer. Wands of magic missile on casters/rogues hidden amongst the horde.

Also, even mundane, modern armies bring big boys to the fight. After the battle is joined and the pc's committed, out come a few smatterings of mercenary monsters. Nothing crazy, maybe a few squads of ogres for line breaking and/or a giant or two to act as your "battle tanks". :)

[Jack_Simth]

Well, with 200 mooks, have you considered slings? Sling bullets are dirt cheap, and slings themselves are listed as having no cost. They also only have a 30% chance of getting diverted by a Wind Wall... and with 200 of them, you're liable to get 20 hits (one of which is a crit) in per round. Sure, it's only 1d4 per hit... but 21d4 per round is nothing to sneeze at with the level you're looking at.

Sure, you'll need a way to target the PC's. I'd suggest a Wizard (Conjurer)-3 with See Invisibility and Glitterdust.

To keep them mostly safe, you scatter them. If you have a hard time fitting more than two soldiers in any given Fireball, it'll be a while before you can whittle down that damage per round.

You'll lose a few soldiers before the party figures out they can't take such an army head-on.....

Edit:
Oh yes, and if you do have a bunch of rogues, too, Magic Missile is a fun spell to put in wands or scrolls - even at caster level 1. 1d4+1 damage per DC 20 UMD check is nothing to sneeze at when you've got 50 or 100 rogue-1's with 4 ranks in UMD ... even with Charisma-10. 1 in 4 chance of hitting the DC makes 50 Wand-wielding Rogues deal an expected 43.75 damage per round. 87.5, for 100 rogue-1's.

[Ormur]

This is very helpful advice, fills me with confidence this might actually pose a challenge. Attacking the loved ones of the party is not what I had in mind for the encounter but I might use it anyway separately, proving once again everyone should always play an orphan. :smalltongue:


Simple arrow volleys can be brutal against small groups when bards get in on the action... it's possible with just 6 bards to add 2+10d6 damage to all attacks, and a group of soldiers can force a series of DC 15 reflex saves to avoid that damage even at very long range. That can easily take out higher level enemies.

You're talking about the volley archery tactic, Heroes of Battle isn't it, combined with Dragonfire Inspiration? That might certainly work, it would be 20 DC 15 reflex checks in a row and if the army is lucky they might hit the entire party with each, I'm not sure what their reflex bonuses are but some of them might only fail on 1 out of 20. One problem is that the army is then organized into 20 tight and easily fireballable groups, is it better than just having them spread over the battlefield within hearing range of the bards and firing 2 arrows a turn hoping for a natural 20?

Having slings as a back up weapon against windwall or to insure against loss of equipment is definitely sensible. Also as you mention having a few barbarians and cavalrymen for melee damage rather than trusting entirely on archery. They can't attack flying parties but maybe the army wizard could have a few scrolls of mass fly to fix that.

On the magical side, can I pump UMD enough on 2nd level rogues to let them use wands without completely breaking their WBL (the wands might count aginst the entire army's wealth)? I don't imagine there will be enough casters to attrition dispel magic the party (like any high level party they're well prepared against dispels) but stackable debuffs are more attainable. A wizard with see invisibility and glitterdust is definitely a must, I was briefly considering homebrewing wheat cannons or something.

As for the higher level commanders what builds would allow them to direct and buff the army best while surviving. I don't think I'll be borrowing from pathfinder but that PrC combination that shares the highest BAB sounds intriguing. I was thinking about Song of the White Raven or something for the commander.

[JaronK]

You're talking about the volley archery tactic, Heroes of Battle isn't it, combined with Dragonfire Inspiration?

Complete Warrior, actually.


That might certainly work, it would be 20 DC 15 reflex checks in a row and if the army is lucky they might hit the entire party with each, I'm not sure what their reflex bonuses are but some of them might only fail on 1 out of 20.

Still, each volley can hit the whole group, and I bet some of them don't already have a +14 to Ref saves. It definitely hurts when an arrow gets through. Don't forget the base damage of the weapon... since proficiency doesn't matter for this, I'd recommend the soldiers use Greatbows (maybe Compound Greatbows if they have a strength bonus) so we're looking at 1d10+10d6+2+Str damage on a failed save. That hurts... and you only have to be level 1 to do it.


One problem is that the army is then organized into 20 tight and easily fireballable groups, is it better than just having them spread over the battlefield within hearing range of the bards and firing 2 arrows a turn hoping for a natural 20?

The archers don't even have to see the target... only the spotter does. So if the spotter is hidden behind something doing the spotting (note that Int matters for spotting, so Factotums or other Int based skill monkeys are wonderful for this) the party may not even see him, and the entire archery group will be out of line of effect. Since the spotter isn't actually attacking, he can be pretty darn far away and hidden and be virtually impossible to see, even if he's low level.

You might also consider some kind of movement debuff effect, such as tanglefoot bags, to keep the party stuck in the kill zone as long as possible.

JaronK

[Hiro Protagonest]

Complete Warrior, actually.

HoB has a better version.

[Gorilla2038]

(sorry if this has been said, skimmed the thread)

Aid Another, combined with a phalanx.

Imagine this. Place six orcs in two lines, 3x2. in back, place a single ogre.


As Such

:smallwink::smallwink::smallwink:
:smallwink::smallwink::smallwink:
. :smallfurious:


now, give those 3 orcs in front swords, the ones behind them longspears, and the ogre a long spear. The standard orcs have a +5 to hit(if you switch out alertness for WF). They need to roll a 5 to hit AC 10 to successfully aid another. On average that the ogres to hit is now +16 or +18. That's enough to hit a much higher level enemy.

For Casters, it depends on your group, but if you run an optimized group as people on these boards seem to, blasting spells suck, so people dont take them. Orbs, the blast of choice, are a total waste on mooks. Therefore, the methods of battle control become more important. The key to this is Tactics and feat selection.

If cooperative spell works with dispel magic, a bunch of low level casters could boost the check on dispel magic to crazy levels. Same with if aid another works on dispels(again) you could also homebrew a feat with,say, arcane thesis as a pre req that allows characters to aid another on dispel checks.

If not, the much derided warmage is your best friend. Even at level one, a hundred warmages in a line can fire alot of RT spells. Even if you touch AC is hittable only on a nat 20, 5 people will hit and do 5d8 +(5-10). Not great for an army, no, but a decent chunk of damge every round. Similarly, imagine the brutality of a hundred rays of enfeeblement hitting at a party.

Just some baseline suggestions, hope they help!

[Seharvepernfan]

political theories of Frank and K?

Could you link me?

[Yahzi]

Could you link me?

http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=28547

You are in for a treat. Some of the funniest & insightful writing on D&D ever.

[Xtomjames]

I have a simple rule, never pit an army against a PC group unless you want massive carnage by way of army total destruction.

I have characters that can wipe the floor with a single army at level 11-13. At level 20 I have one character that could do it in one turn.

[hydroplatypus]

If the army has significant numbers of casters then attack bonus can be boosted fairly high. the best thing for this is probably a wand of true strike. lvl 1 spell that gives +20 to 1 attack. combine with other bonuses to attack and the army might do some good. Not good at optimization as I am new to D&D but wand of magic weapon (+1) + inspire courage (bard [+1]) + true strike (+20) + guidance (+1) + bless (+1) plus warrior attack bonus (+2 at lvl 2) gives a total of +26 to attack. with a lot of wands this could get very high very quickly, and this is all from PHB 1. Should be able to hit even a 40 AC on more then a nat 20. Hope this helps.

[Alabenson]

You may want to consider pitting the PCs not against the rank-and-file of the military, but against elite squads formed for the sole purpose of hunting and killing adventurers. Think about it, in the D&D world small groups of trained killers with potentially world-shattering power are not uncommon, thus any government of real power would need a way to combat them, hence trained squads of adventurer-killers.