Chaining Leadership? [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

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SlashRunner

2011-07-09, 01:32 AM

King Atticus

2011-07-09, 01:36 AM

Sure it's possible...but didn't it hurt bad enough when your DM hit you with his DMG when you took Leadership once? Chain that stuff and I think your looking at a good ol' fashioned beat down.

Ursus the Grim

2011-07-09, 01:42 AM

IIRC the DMG strongly advises that NPCs should not be allowed to take the Leadership feat. They just are leaders. So no, I don't think its possible. At least not without a masochistic DM.

crazyhedgewizrd

2011-07-09, 01:42 AM

you dont need leadership for a sizeable organisation, just a big bag of gold. you were going to pay them right?

SlashRunner

2011-07-09, 01:56 AM

I am the DM...
Seriously, one of my players is trying to create an organization and take over the world, and he's using leadership to do it (I usually don't allow leadership, but I think he'll handle it well and make a great plot point out of it, so I'm letting him off). However, there's not that much he can do with 135 followers. So, I just had this stroke of brilliance, and plan on giving him the idea the moment I find out if it's 100% legal by RAW.

Ursus the Grim

2011-07-09, 01:58 AM

crazyhedgewizrd

2011-07-09, 02:02 AM

they used as contacts and labours

SlashRunner

2011-07-09, 02:04 AM

Ah well, its your call then. Just don't be shocked if he starts using human sacrifice rules from BoVD. The only thing I can imagine doing with 135 level 1 followers.:smallwink:

He in no way experienced or knowledgeable to do that (given a few months, maybe...). I think he's actually planning on playing it straight and using his army to...well...do things an army would do.

Lonely Tylenol

2011-07-09, 02:10 AM

Ah well, its your call then. Just don't be shocked if he starts using human sacrifice rules from BoVD. The only thing I can imagine doing with 135 level 1 followers.:smallwink:

I got a large sum of low-level followers at level 3 by executing their leader in front of them, then having my barbarian companion charge through their hideout with my bard companion riding his shoulders, waving his severed head around. I followed shortly behind, offering them a choice: join me, or end up like your leader.

Why yes, this was an evil campaign! How did you know?

Anyway, since they were all level 1 (and would be difficult to keep alive in combat), I used them to take control of an abandoned building in a large city, which we made into a tavern, for which they were the employees, and also my network of spies (using them to learn about other underworld organizations in the city, which I then plotted to overthrow to create a monopoly on the city's darker dealings).

A few sessions later, my party and the group of followers formed a fight club in the basement, after a bar room brawl erupted and caused mass mayhem, much to the amusement of the rest of the tavern's patrons.

Good fun. :smallbiggrin:

Anyway, from my own experiences with a large group of weak NPCs, I can think of quite a few uses, whether they're expendable or otherwise.

To the original poster: Yes, it's legal. Yes, the chain of command can be enforced by a powerful leader of a leader of a leader. Your PC's network of cohorts and NPCs will require a lot of bookkeeping, however, and the followers' levels are fixed (unless you decide otherwise, I suppose, but it sounds then like you're just punishing the player). Yes, you can amass a small army this way. No, it won't be very effective (since the vast majority of your followers will be level 1).

SlashRunner

2011-07-09, 02:16 AM

Can followers have PC class levels? Like, can your 1st level followers be 1st level Warblades or Barbarians, or do the all have to be Warriors and Commoners?

SlashRunner

2011-07-09, 02:19 AM

Because, assuming a benefactor of near-infinite means (read: a high-level character) you can amass an army of:
611 1st level followers
54 2nd level followers
28 3rd level followers
16 4th level followers
8 5th level followers
7 6th level followers

This is all assuming that you can control the actual builds of the followers and cohorts (E.G. All my 6th level followers are Spellscale Sorcerers with 20 CHA).

Lonely Tylenol

2011-07-09, 02:22 AM

Can followers have PC class levels? Like, can your 1st level followers be 1st level Warblades or Barbarians, or do the all have to be Warriors and Commoners?

This is entirely up to you.

I would allow it (within reason), but I would not allow level 6 followers to have the Leadership feat (only cohorts), if you're going this route.

SlashRunner

2011-07-09, 02:28 AM

This is entirely up to you.

I would allow it (within reason), but I would not allow level 6 followers to have the Leadership feat (only cohorts), if you're going this route.

It's only a marginal variation (58 less 1st level followers) anyways. However, what I'm wondering is how on Earth he's going to take over the world with this army, even with these souped-up totals. In my world, a single Imperial Legion numbers 2000 men, with the said empire having dozens, if not hundreds, of the aforementioned legions. I'd think that in this case, it would actually be fair to INCREASE the total amount of followers someone gets. In any case, it makes sense. A 20th level character is pretty much a god walking among mere mortals, and with a leadership score of 25, said god-like character would also be more charismatic than any human being could possibly manage. 135 1st level followers seems a bit...lacklustre.

kardar233

2011-07-09, 03:45 AM

Lonely Tylenol

2011-07-09, 03:47 AM

It's only a marginal variation (58 less 1st level followers) anyways. However, what I'm wondering is how on Earth he's going to take over the world with this army, even with these souped-up totals. In my world, a single Imperial Legion numbers 2000 men, with the said empire having dozens, if not hundreds, of the aforementioned legions. I'd think that in this case, it would actually be fair to INCREASE the total amount of followers someone gets. In any case, it makes sense. A 20th level character is pretty much a god walking among mere mortals, and with a leadership score of 25, said god-like character would also be more charismatic than any human being could possibly manage. 135 1st level followers seems a bit...lacklustre.

Make all the cohorts full casters or party buff PrCs. There's a two-PrC combo that gives all allies in range the BAB of the highest-BAB ally in range (though I can't, for the life of me, remember what it was; I really wish I had saved that thread). Getting a bunch of Wizard/Incantatars/rixes to cast persisted Mass Enlarge Person, Haste, Stoneskin and other goodies certainly wouldn't hurt, either. Ultimately, however, it'll all boil down to how well the generals lead their armies.

Granted, at that point you're basically playing turn-based Starcraft, which is just flat-out boring for everybody that isn't leading close to a thousand men in battle, and the best thing that can happen for the campaign is that the large-scale battles (whether they are a part of them or not) happen "off-camera", and if they're there, have them fight encounters within the greater battle, instead of controlling the entire battle themselves, and have their successful actions help to turn the tide of battle (if possible).

Ravens_cry

2011-07-09, 05:05 AM

I believe the Leadership feat was meant to emulate the Strongholds and Temples and such that characters got by default if they advanced far enough in AD&D classes. Back then, you also got a herd of low level mooks.
Since your the DM, after the game, find time to ask the player why they want to do this. Work together to make this a memorable role play experience for all.

King Atticus

2011-07-09, 11:41 AM

I got a large sum of low-level followers at level 3 by executing their leader in front of them, ...

Wait...what? Don't you have to be 6th level to even take leadership?

SlashRunner

2011-07-09, 11:51 AM

Make all the cohorts full casters or party buff PrCs. There's a two-PrC combo that gives all allies in range the BAB of the highest-BAB ally in range (though I can't, for the life of me, remember what it was; I really wish I had saved that thread). Getting a bunch of Wizard/Incantatars/rixes to cast persisted Mass Enlarge Person, Haste, Stoneskin and other goodies certainly wouldn't hurt, either. Ultimately, however, it'll all boil down to how well the generals lead their armies.

Granted, at that point you're basically playing turn-based Starcraft, which is just flat-out boring for everybody that isn't leading close to a thousand men in battle, and the best thing that can happen for the campaign is that the large-scale battles (whether they are a part of them or not) happen "off-camera", and if they're there, have them fight encounters within the greater battle, instead of controlling the entire battle themselves, and have their successful actions help to turn the tide of battle (if possible).

Hmmm...turn-based Starcraft. I like how you think, good sir! It's the fun of Starcraft coupled with infinite time to decide what to do! Plus, the player in question is a Soulknife, which just SCREAMS "Zealot" to me.

Seriously though, I don't plan on having any more large battles. I tried it, didn't work before. However, even if he's not going to be really fighting with his army, a total of 724 followers isn't really going to get him anywhere, no matter what approach he takes.

Doktor Per

2011-07-09, 11:59 AM

It's only a marginal variation (58 less 1st level followers) anyways. However, what I'm wondering is how on Earth he's going to take over the world with this army, even with these souped-up totals. In my world, a single Imperial Legion numbers 2000 men, with the said empire having dozens, if not hundreds, of the aforementioned legions. I'd think that in this case, it would actually be fair to INCREASE the total amount of followers someone gets. In any case, it makes sense. A 20th level character is pretty much a god walking among mere mortals, and with a leadership score of 25, said god-like character would also be more charismatic than any human being could possibly manage. 135 1st level followers seems a bit...lacklustre.

The difference is that the Imperial Legion gets paid, while these followers you get from leadership, are fanatics that follow you around and do your bidding. This is why you get less followers if you send them to their death, while you can always hire more adventurers/people if you put up the hazard pay.

It's more likely that in the case of Caesar if he has Leadership, that these followers are the ones that do more sensitive things. They are the ones you sort of know are loyal, and won't leave when you face ruination (unless your leadership score drops)

I'm running a game where the players have a pretty large network of people that work for them, none of them through Leadership (though that got abused in the game prior to that.) They are just getting paid in one way or another. Be it a slice of their pie or wages.

King Atticus: You can lead without Leadership. I think Mr. Level 3 was the leader of that little society do to seniority and power, sort of like in a despotic society. Then when beheaded, their culture, one who respects power, bowed down to the players.

King Atticus

2011-07-09, 12:15 PM

King Atticus: You can lead without Leadership. I think Mr. Level 3 was the leader of that little society do to seniority and power, sort of like in a despotic society. Then when beheaded, their culture, one who respects power, bowed down to the players.

Wow, ok that's pretty cool. I was just confused by the mechanics a little.

The Dark Fiddler

2011-07-09, 12:18 PM

There's a two-PrC combo that gives all allies in range the BAB of the highest-BAB ally in range (though I can't, for the life of me, remember what it was; I really wish I had saved that thread).

I think one was Warchanter.

Wait...what? Don't you have to be 6th level to even take leadership?

There is no mention of taking the feat there.

Yora

2011-07-09, 12:19 PM

Because it's not very well developed. :smallamused:

They had an idea when they started making 3.5e, and it looks like they forgot about it, never decided on what they really wanted to do with it, and then just put what they had as an optional rule in the DMG before release.
It's full with contradictions and issues that are never adressed.

Seerow

2011-07-09, 12:21 PM

If you need a bigger army for your player, you can consider allowing the Epic leadership feats available earlier. Particularly the one that multiplies all followers by 10.

OracleofSilence

2011-07-09, 12:21 PM

Treblain

2011-07-09, 02:41 PM

When you get down to it, Leadership doesn't even say you can choose your cohort's feats. Leadership is not meant to be "you create a new character and write their character sheet". Presumably, the DM is supposed to make your cohort. It just doesn't turn out that way because no DM wants to go through the trouble.

Leadership is just not a well-thought-out rule. If you want to have a companion or lead an army, that should be achieved via roleplaying and DM-party cooperation, not through a feat.

Seerow

2011-07-09, 02:42 PM

Another fun thing I just ran across, if you allow leadership chaining and really want your player to get a huge army, the Nymm Ascendant feat from Eberron:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/14856349/Eberron-Article-Moons-Lunar-Feats

Which allows characters to take leadership starting at level 2, giving you a much larger chunk of followers who have leadership, making the chain that much more impressive.

King Atticus

2011-07-09, 02:47 PM

There is no mention of taking the feat there.

Yeah I got that now, thanks. I had made an assumption based on the context of the OP.

myancey

2011-07-09, 02:59 PM

There is no mention of taking the feat there.

That is sort of obvious, isn't it? I mean, it's basically why King Atticus posted his response in the first place..because there was no mention of the leadership feat...you know?

Jack_Simth

2011-07-09, 03:13 PM

Is it possible to chain the Leadership feat or the Thrallherd class to give your cohorts cohorts? And those cohorts would get cohorts? Repeat until your line of cohorts reaches 6th level? Because I see that as an excellent way to establish a sizeable organization, complete with it's own chain of command.
Yes & no.

Is it technically possible for a given NPC to have leadership? Sure.
Is it technically possible for that NPC to also become a Cohort? Sure.
HOWEVER: A Cohort is an NPC. Officially, the DM builds and controls the cohort. The player can attempt to attract a certain kind of cohort... but that's it. DM builds them.

So it's technically possible, but requires the DM be in cahoots.

Yora

2011-07-09, 03:39 PM

Offically? Has there been any additional explaination on Leadership?

The Dark Fiddler

2011-07-09, 04:16 PM

That is sort of obvious, isn't it? I mean, it's basically why King Atticus posted his response in the first place..because there was no mention of the leadership feat...you know?

Not really, my comment was more "this case doesn't involve the feat so that's why it happens in circumstances contrary to the prerequisites of said feat".

ImperatorK

2011-07-09, 04:27 PM

it isn't legal. i can't remember where, but it specifically says that cohorts/followers can't take the leadership feat. any way, he uses affiliations to do that (it never says your affiliation followers can't take leadership)
Actually, you're wrong. Power of Faerun has rules on followers with Leadership and many more. They can take it and even give your character a bonus on Influence checks (new additional rule for Leadership based games).

Hiro Protagonest

2011-07-09, 05:03 PM

If you need a bigger army for your player, you can consider allowing the Epic leadership feats available earlier. Particularly the one that multiplies all followers by 10.

There's a feat in HoB called extra followers. Doubles your number of followers. To get the full benefit though, all your cohorts would also have to take it.

Then, combine that with legendary commander to get 20 times the number of followers.

Lonely Tylenol

2011-07-09, 05:37 PM

Wait...what? Don't you have to be 6th level to even take leadership?

No; I just assumed control of a bandit troupe by killing their leader, and then calling his former men to my side through fear. The men were outlaws, and they came to me under respect for the one thing they could respect: power.

Hmmm...turn-based Starcraft. I like how you think, good sir! It's the fun of Starcraft coupled with infinite time to decide what to do! Plus, the player in question is a Soulknife, which just SCREAMS "Zealot" to me.

Oh god, I can see it now. It'll be like chess with 2,000 moves in a turn.

Seriously though, I don't plan on having any more large battles. I tried it, didn't work before. However, even if he's not going to be really fighting with his army, a total of 724 followers isn't really going to get him anywhere, no matter what approach he takes.

Wellllll...

724 followers by virtue of the Leadership chain, which includes a number of higher-level cohorts and a decent number of level 4-6 followers (all of which will be above the "average" level of a soldier, most of whom would be level 1-2). If your player manages the books well, makes most of the higher-level followers and cohorts Bards, Wizards and Clerics, and has them buff the party with Haste (1 target/level), Mass Enlarge Person (1 target/level), Mass Bear's Endurance/Bull's Strength/Cat's Grace (1 target/level), Mass Regal Procession/Phantom Steed (1 horse/level; create an elite mounted squadron, Phantom Steed flies at level 12), and then had someone to Persist all these buffs (which an Incantatar can do with a Spellcraft check after they've been cast by the early teens), and channel the rest of these wizards into battlefield control... You have an army that could easily take out an equivalently-equipped army three times its size. Assuming brilliant generals, five. Assuming night battles with Mass Darkvision, eight.

Remember that these followers are followers that he could get on top of other means of getting soldiers. There are rules for hiring mercenaries and the like, you know, and simply getting people to follow you isn't that hard if you know the psychology of the group you're trying to turn (like I did) or if you're a diplomancer, so if your level 20 commits a decent portion of his wealth-by-level (or simply uses his smaller fanatic force to raid villages or generate wealth through some other means), he can amass a thousands-strong army, plus his 724 fanatics, meaning he'd even win in numbers.