Utilizing Many Shot/ Rapid Shot to best effect

[Graha013]

I'm evaluating an archer build and it dawned on my that I've seen some posts regarding many shot and rapid shot and how the rules affect them to benefit archers, but never read into them/can't find them now. If anyone can toss a quick overview on the following character points/notes from this sheet, I'd appreciate it. Just want to make sure he's not breaking a rule or not missing out on a rule.

Human
Ranger 2/Fighter 13
Str: 19 (belt of giant str +4)
Dex: 26 (Glove of dex, +6) (18 base, +2ability enhancements)
Con: 15
Int: 15
Wis: 14
Cha: 14

Fort: 15 Ref: 17 Will: 8
BAB: 15
Full attack (under 30'): 30/25/20/30/30 (rapid shot, 5 shots)
Full attack (over 30'): 29/24/19/29/29 (rapid shot, 5 shots)
Standard attack (under 30') 26/26 (many shot, -4pen, 4 arrows)
Standard attack (over 30') 25/25 (many shot, -4pen, 4 arrows)

Weapon: Longbow w/splitting, speedy enhancements

Feats: Weapon focus longbow, point blank shot, (rapid shot from ranger archery), precise shot, defensive archery, farshot, manyshot, improved rapid shot, ranged disarm, item familiar (his bow), weapon specialization longbow, dodge, mobility, shot on the run, ranged weapon mastery

Bonus's to hit come from weapon +1, weapon focus, +1, point blank shot +1*, +2 ranged weapon mastery, bracers of archery (greater) +2, so total is +7/ +6 outside of 30'.

Total to hit mod: +7 +8Dex = +15

I'm more concerned that he may have too many or too few shots in the full attack mode. Speedy enhancement on his bow adds a shot at full BAB, and improved rapid shot removed the penalty for rapid shot on a full attack.

This is his character 'as built' so recommendations for levels 16-20, even PrC's will be gladly appreciated, but I can't change any of the information above unless it's incorrect.

[Keld Denar]

You could do almost the exact same thing with Scout4/Ranger11 and only be 1 BAB behind. You'd lose Weapon Spec/Mastery and probably the feats for Shot on the Run (which is bad, and can't be combined with Multishot), but you'll gain Skirmish damage and Ranger spells, which, with Spell Compedium and Champions of Ruin, aren't really THAT bad, especially if you keep a couple of low level Pearls of Power floating around. You'd also gain a TON more skill points.

The main issue with what you have is that you don't really have a decent source of +damage, and DR is gonna rape you since even DR10 is gonna strip 100 damage/round off your full attack. Thats a concern for most archers though, not just yours.

[Graha013]

Yeah I realize that, the DM realizes that, but this is what he built. I'm reviewing for the DM and while it's not an optimized build, we were concerned that the number of shots he was taking - with rapid shot plus splitting giving him 10 arrows per round - wasn't correct. I actually thought he was undershooting and can't remember if I had read conversations on here about many and/or rapid shot being beyond what he posted. Since he's already ran one session with it he's stuck with the build, just making sure everything looked legit - positive or negative how it might affect him.


Do you think pulling 4 lvls of scout would be recommended for him in the future?

[Graha013]

Side note for Keld - that spellthief build you've helped me with along with Piggy Knowles and all - he is facing the same demon I am in about an hour. I think my build is ready for him... I think this archer is gonna be the first victim. Lol.

[mucco]

You Rapid Shot calculations are correct, but the Manyshot ones seem to be wrong (to me).

To shoot four arrows you have to take a -8 penalty, for a +22 total. Moreover, you wrote "26/26", implying that you shoot two manyshots as a standard action. That would not be the case, since you're only entitled to a single standard action and one Manyshot fills it. Rapid Shot and Haste/Speed enhancement give you one more roll only in a full attack and Manyshot isn't that.

Also, if you really want to pwn, the usual optimizations are Boots of Speed (to free up a +2 on your bow) and the ever-broken Energy Bow: auto-composite force-damage no-ammo bow dealing 2d6 and you can Power Attack with it! Cost is 23k :smallsigh:

PrCs useful depend on your tastes (not that there are many around), but one I like is Deepwood Sniper from MotW (3.0). It really lets you scream at the table when you crit :smallbiggrin:

[Graha013]

You Rapid Shot calculations are correct, but the Manyshot ones seem to be wrong (to me).

To shoot four arrows you have to take a -8 penalty, for a +22 total. Moreover, you wrote "26/26", implying that you shoot two manyshots as a standard action. That would not be the case, since you're only entitled to a single standard action and one Manyshot fills it. Rapid Shot and Haste/Speed enhancement give you one more roll only in a full attack and Manyshot isn't that.

Also, if you really want to pwn, the usual optimizations are Boots of Speed (to free up a +2 on your bow) and the ever-broken Energy Bow: auto-composite force-damage no-ammo bow dealing 2d6 and you can Power Attack with it! Cost is 23k :smallsigh:

PrCs useful depend on your tastes (not that there are many around), but one I like is Deepwood Sniper from MotW (3.0). It really lets you scream at the table when you crit :smallbiggrin:


Ok, while we're sitting pre-session, see if I can't figure out what we need to fix for his many shot. From what I get from his sheet, his many shot is 1 shot of 2 arrows, plus an extra shot because of his speed enhancement on the bow. Does that sound legit? He's effectively only shooting 3 arrows I guess, 1 as a manyshot, 1 as his extra attack because of the enhancement

[Yora]

You can't get an extra attack from speed, because it only works when you make a full attack. The point of manyshot is, that's a single action and not a full attack, which allows you to move and shot more than a single arrow.
Rapid Shot also only works when making a full attack.

[Graha013]

You can't get an extra attack from speed, because it only works when you make a full attack. The point of manyshot is, that's a single action and not a full attack, which allows you to move and shot more than a single arrow.
Rapid Shot also only works when making a full attack.

Awesome. Will correct those 'tactics' now. I'm not telling him about the energy bow. Doesn't it also do 2d6 damage and power attack? Lets not go crazy here...my guys supposed to be the star :P

[Yora]

The attack bonus for Manyshot seems about right though. The only mistake is that it looks like he makes two attack rolls at +26. But in fact it's only one attack roll with two arrows. Either both hit, or none.

I'm not sure how he gets 5 attacks with Rapid Shot, though.

[Graha013]

The attack bonus for Manyshot seems about right though. The only mistake is that it looks like he makes two attack rolls at +26. But in fact it's only one attack roll with two arrows. Either both hit, or none.

I'm not sure how he gets 5 attacks with Rapid Shot, though.

3 attacks +1 at full bab from Rapid shot, +1 at full bab for speed on the longbow

[Yora]

Ah yes, forgot the speed. That seems about right then.

Manyshot makes the most sense when you have Shot on the Run, which he has. Using those two feats, he can run out of cover, fire his rapid shot with two arrows, and get into cover again.
When he does not move (except for a 5 ft. step), he can make a full attack with his Rapid Shot and Speed weapon and make 5 attacks.

[Quietus]

Ah yes, forgot the speed. That seems about right then.

Manyshot makes the most sense when you have Shot on the Run, which he has. Using those two feats, he can run out of cover, fire his rapid shot with two arrows, and get into cover again.
When he does not move (except for a 5 ft. step), he can make a full attack with his Rapid Shot and Speed weapon and make 5 attacks.

I believe Shot On The Run only allows a single attack action - one arrow - rather than the standard action necessary for Manyshot. You can't combine the two.

[Yora]

It merely says "when using the attack action". Manyshot says "as a standard action".
However, there is no "attack action" only attack as a standard action or full-attack.

If one clings really tightly to the letter of the word, one could argue that it does not work, but I think that's really making it unnccessarily complicated.

[dextercorvia]

It merely says "when using the attack action". Manyshot says "as a standard action".
However, there is no "attack action" only attack as a standard action or full-attack.

If one clings really tightly to the letter of the word, one could argue that it does not work, but I think that's really making it unnccessarily complicated.

Really? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#attack)

The attack action is a standard action, but all standard actions are not attack actions.

[Coidzor]

Awesome. Will correct those 'tactics' now. I'm not telling him about the energy bow. Doesn't it also do 2d6 damage and power attack? Lets not go crazy here...my guys supposed to be the star :P

It's... archery that's mostly Fighter. It's already incapable of going crazy and overshadowing anyone.

[Xtomjames]

In my opinion go with an Arcane Archer instead, but if the GM built it then not much to say. However, there is Greater Many Shot (expanded psionics handbook page 47) to consider, what more there is no reason that Shot on the Run can't be used in conjunction with Many Shot. Fell Shot (also from Expanded Psionics Handbook) is a must and can be used in conjunction with any of the other feats.

However, why not take the Archer prestige class? Or the Standard Class?

There is also the psionics route of Soulknife to Soulbow.

In fact there are quite a few Archer prestige classes that do what you're doing but make you more effective.

arcane archer DMG 176 The arcane archer is a warrior skilled in using magic to supplement her combat prowess.

cragtop archer Races of Stone 101 Cragtop archers train their eyes and minds to find target at great distances, and to quickly compensate for wind, movement, and other factors that affect shots of such difficulty.

Order of the Bow initiate Complete Warrior 68 By learning the meditative art of the Way of the Bow, the archer improves his discipline, precision, and spirituality.

peerless archer Silver Marches 115 The peerless archer devotes her life to perfecting her skill with the bow.
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