Negative Level Specialist?

[NeoSeraphi]

So, I love negative levels. They stack, they instantly kill without allowing a saving throw, and even if you can't stack them enough to kill, they weaken the enemy considerably (especially if they are a caster).

I love negative levels so much I homebrewed a prestige class about them. (The Lifedrinker, check my signature if you're interested)

So, my question, Playground, is how to actually, legitimately, optimize negative levels? What class/prestige is the best for it, what kinds of metamagic abuse can you pull off and how early could you start pumping out serious negative levels per turn?

Also, are there any other ways of bestowing negative levels besides becoming a vampire, rolling a succubus, or enervation/energy drain?

[Eloel]

Versatile Spellcaster + Sonic Snap + Fell Drain.
You can start dealing no-save negative levels as early as L1.

[Amnestic]

Fell Drain metamagic (Libris Mortis) applies a negative level effect to any damage spell. +2 on spell levels. Believe that's the easiest way to do it, especially if you combine it with metamagic reducers and someting like Magic Missile for easy hits.

[NeoSeraphi]

Fell Drain only bestows one negative level. While it does open up options for me to start dealing them earlier, it's not exactly optimization. Even if I did apply it to all my spells, the creatures would be dead before I even had 5 negative levels on them.

Thank you both though. A good suggestion. For higher levels, are there any other suggestions? I want to be dealing 4 or 5 negative levels per round. (at least. More is always good)

[Eloel]

Fell Drain only bestows one negative level. While it does open up options for me to start dealing them earlier, it's not exactly optimization. Even if I did apply it to all my spells, the creatures would be dead before I even had 5 negative levels on them.

Thank you both though. A good suggestion. For higher levels, are there any other suggestions? I want to be dealing 4 or 5 negative levels per round.

Twinned Repeating Fell Drain Magic Missile + Quickened Twinned Repeating Fell Drain Magic Missile

8 negative levels for 5 targets each.

There's more than one way to break things :smallcool:

[NeoSeraphi]

Twinned Repeating Fell Drain Magic Missile + Quickened Twinned Repeating Fell Drain Magic Missile

8 negative levels for 5 targets each.

There's more than one way to break things :smallcool:

There we go. So...That's...+3 for Repeat, +4 for Twin, +2 for Fell Drain, and Magic Missile is a 1st level spell. Then another +4 for Quicken.

If I used Arcane Thesis, that would be a 7th level spell for the first one, and a 10th level spell for the second. It's also using up 5 feats (Quicken Spell, Fell Drain Spell, Repeat Spell, Twin Spell, Arcane Thesis (Magic Missile) )

As a wizard I get 4 bonus metamagic feats over the course of 20 levels...plus 7 more if I'm human. So the earliest I could pull this off (Assuming Easy Metamagic (Fell Drain)) would be 17th level for the 9th level spell slot.

[Zaq]

Fell Drain shenanigans are, as noted, awesome.

There's also the Soul Eater PrC from BoVD, which can deal negative levels at-will with a touch (one at a time at 1st level, 2 at a time at 7th). A conservative reading says that doing so takes a standard action, but a more permissive reading says that it happens whenever you touch an enemy . . . which means that a Flurry of Pokes from a Monk (just making touch attacks, not trying to hit hard) would be fantastic.

[ILM]

So, my question, Playground, is how to actually, legitimately, optimize negative levels? What class/prestige is the best for it, what kinds of metamagic abuse can you pull off and how early could you start pumping out serious negative levels per turn?
I think the standard metamagic reduction specialist (you know, Incantatrix, Metaphysical Spellshaper if you can, Easy/Practical Metamagic, Arcane Thesis, etc) coupled with liberal applications of Enervation would be a good start.

[NeoSeraphi]

Wow, I've never heard of that class before but I really like it. Good to know that WotC gave us a non-casting option for draining, even if it is really hard to get into. (Unless you're a Warforged)

Edit: I've never heard of Metaphysical Spellshaper. What is that?

[Eloel]

There we go. So...That's...+3 for Repeat, +4 for Twin, +2 for Fell Drain, and Magic Missile is a 1st level spell. Then another +4 for Quicken.

If I used Arcane Thesis, that would be a 7th level spell for the first one, and a 10th level spell for the second. It's also using up 5 feats (Quicken Spell, Fell Drain Spell, Repeat Spell, Twin Spell, Arcane Thesis (Magic Missile) )

As a wizard I get 4 bonus metamagic feats over the course of 20 levels...plus 7 more if I'm human. So the earliest I could pull this off (Assuming Easy Metamagic (Fell Drain)) would be 17th level for the 9th level spell slot.

Also relevant: Artificer using MM wands.

[NeoSeraphi]

Also relevant: Artificer using MM wands.

Oooh...that definitely has possibilities. :belkar:

I'm a little fuzzy on my wand rules though. Do you need to craft a wand with all the metamagic on it? (Which would definitely make using six or seven ninth level spell slots per day more viable) or do you apply it as you fire them?

[Eloel]

With Artificer, you can infuse a Wand with a specific metamagic AND burn multiple charges to get in more metamagics. I'm not sure on the count though, you'd need to check the class.

[Zaq]

Oooh...that definitely has possibilities. :belkar:

I'm a little fuzzy on my wand rules though. Do you need to craft a wand with all the metamagic on it? (Which would definitely make using six or seven ninth level spell slots per day more viable) or do you apply it as you fire them?

Normal people craft the wand with the metamagic on it. (There's an item that gets around this, but that's an exception, not a rule.) Artificers, on the other hand, burn extra charges to apply the metamagic to a normal wand. Check out their level 6 feature. It's disgustingly powerful. Yes, you can burn through an entire wand in a couple encounters if you REALLY use a Twinned Split Ray Maximized Empowered Quickened Repeating Enervation (and again, without the Quicken) on every turn, but 1) you don't have to bring out the full auto every time, and 2) you can craft wands for disgustingly low prices, so really, you can afford to do so.

Crazy metamagic wandificers (and, later, stafficers) are absurdly broken. (Honestly, ANY Artificer taking heavy advantage of his class features is pretty broken.)

[ILM]

Edit: I've never heard of Metaphysical Spellshaper. What is that?
It's a 3-level class found in the Book of Erotic Fantasy that gets one spell level's worth of metamagic reduction. I'm pretty sure it falls under 3rd party but for some reason it keeps getting mentioned whenever anyone talks about metamagic reduction, so I though I'd throw it in as well :smalltongue:.

[NeoSeraphi]

It's a 3-level class found in the Book of Erotic Fantasy that gets one spell level's worth of metamagic reduction. I'm pretty sure it falls under 3rd party but for some reason it keeps getting mentioned whenever anyone talks about metamagic reduction, so I though I'd throw it in as well :smalltongue:.

What level does it get this?

And burning through charges? And a wand of enervation has fifty charges...and there's a feat that lets you dual-wield wands...and artificers get all their crafting feats for free...mwahahahahaha!

[PersonMan]

What level does it get this?

Level 3. It's a full-casting progression class that needs 2 metamagic feats, 3rd level spells, Know(arcana) and Spellcraft 5 as well as Craft(weaving or scultping) 3, for some quasi-flavor-based reason.

It can do metamagic for free by taking ability damage to one score equal to the level increase, which can be nice if you just hit Str and heal it with Naberius.

[NeoSeraphi]

What is Naberius? Is that a feat or a spell or something?

[Zaq]

What level does it get this?

And burning through charges? And a wand of enervation has fifty charges...and there's a feat that lets you dual-wield wands...and artificers get all their crafting feats for free...mwahahahahaha!

Congratulations, you've discovered one of the many, many, many ways in which Artificers are irreparably broken.

If I ever DM again, and a player comes to me and says "I wanna play a Wizard," I'll tell him "OK, but Wizards can be pretty broken, so I'm going to place some limits on what you can do with your magic, and I'm going to ban some spells outright. If you're cool with that, just promise to play nice."

If a player comes to me and says "I wanna play a Druid," I'll tell him "Druids are really, really strong, so I'm going to ban Natural Spell, I'm going to restrict access to some of your crazier forms, and I'm going to rewrite or ban some of your spells. If you're cool with that, just promise to play nice."

If a player comes to me and says "I wanna play an Artificer," I'll tell him "No. Try again."

[NeoSeraphi]

Congratulations, you've discovered one of the many, many, many ways in which Artificers are irreparably broken.

If I ever DM again, and a player comes to me and says "I wanna play a Wizard," I'll tell him "OK, but Wizards can be pretty broken, so I'm going to place some limits on what you can do with your magic, and I'm going to ban some spells outright. If you're cool with that, just promise to play nice."

If a player comes to me and says "I wanna play a Druid," I'll tell him "Druids are really, really strong, so I'm going to ban Natural Spell, I'm going to restrict access to some of your crazier forms, and I'm going to rewrite or ban some of your spells. If you're cool with that, just promise to play nice."

If a player comes to me and says "I wanna play an Artificer," I'll tell him "No. Try again."

Sorry for being late to the realization. My extent of direct exposure to Eberron is the Shifter race and the Weretouched Master racial prestige class. I know plenty about artificers and warforged (in theory) but have never seen either played past level 3.

Edit: Also, what would you say if one of your players came to you and said, "I just got Tome of Magic and I wanna play a Truenamer!"?

[Godskook]

Sorcerer + Incantrix + (greater) arcane fusion + metamagic stacking = dead. This formula works on almost anything that doesn't have ludicrous HD/CR or immunity.


Congratulations, you've discovered one of the many, many, many ways in which Artificers are irreparably broken.

And houserules can solve the problem you're responding to, without even gimping the class feature too bad. Mine go something like this:

1.Artificer abilities cannot apply more than 1 metamagic to an item at a time.

2.You must be of a high enough level to cast/create the spell you're trying to use class features to cast. So an Artificer can't create a spell level 3 equivalent effect unless he's at least level 3 himself(due to his one class feature).

[Derjuin]

What is Naberius? Is that a feat or a spell or something?

It's a vestige, from Tome of Magic. One of its abilities when bound is to heal 1 point of ability damage per round.

[NNescio]

Congratulations, you've discovered one of the many, many, many ways in which Artificers are irreparably broken.

If I ever DM again, and a player comes to me and says "I wanna play a Wizard," I'll tell him "OK, but Wizards can be pretty broken, so I'm going to place some limits on what you can do with your magic, and I'm going to ban some spells outright. If you're cool with that, just promise to play nice."

If a player comes to me and says "I wanna play a Druid," I'll tell him "Druids are really, really strong, so I'm going to ban Natural Spell, I'm going to restrict access to some of your crazier forms, and I'm going to rewrite or ban some of your spells. If you're cool with that, just promise to play nice."

If a player comes to me and says "I wanna play an Artificer," I'll tell him "No. Try again."

Don't forget the infinite Wish loop without fiddling around with extraplanar beings....

[NeoSeraphi]

Sorcerer + Incantrix + (greater) arcane fusion + metamagic stacking = dead. This formula works on almost anything that doesn't have ludicrous HD/CR or immunity.

You didn't actually point out any spells to throw all that on. I assume you're referring to enervation in this case, but since I've already learned so many new things from this thread I'll ask. Do you know of a different spell that bestows negative levels?


It's a vestige

Oh, nice. What level can you start binding it?


Infinite Wish loop

Can't any arcane crafter do that though?

[Godskook]

You didn't actually point out any spells to throw all that on. I assume you're referring to enervation in this case, but since I've already learned so many new things from this thread I'll ask. Do you know of a different spell that bestows negative levels?

Yes, I'm talking about Enervation. Sorry. I thought obvious spell was obvious, and apparently, it wasn't.

[Zaq]

Sorry for being late to the realization. My extent of direct exposure to Eberron is the Shifter race and the Weretouched Master racial prestige class. I know plenty about artificers and warforged (in theory) but have never seen either played past level 3.

Edit: Also, what would you say if one of your players came to you and said, "I just got Tome of Magic and I wanna play a Truenamer!"?

Hey, I understand. If you don't play in Eberron or have an all-books-open group, it's not the kind of thing that comes up. That said, I personally consider them to be the strongest members of T1, even though that's debatable.

As for the Truenamer . . . I'd probably laugh, honestly. You've gotta remember that most of my D&D friends were there when I had my Truenaming experience. If it were someone new, who somehow didn't know that I'm The Truenamer Guy . . . I'd sit them down and have a nice little chat with them. It would be pleasant. We'd just go through Tome of Magic page by page and look at all the new and exciting ways it fails. It would be a lovely bonding experience.

[Eloel]

We'd just go through Tome of Magic page by page and look at all the new and exciting ways it fails. It would be a lovely bonding experience.

We renamed ToM as "Binder Book". Really, everything else in there fails horribly.

[JaronK]

Lifedrinker, a specific weapon in the DMG, does two negative levels per hit. If you're undead or otherwise immune to negative levels, there's no drawback and it's not that expensive for what it does. MiC allows you to use such enchantments on other weapon types. So consider making a TWF crit specialist, with a build similar to the following:

Necropolitan Human Rogue 2/Fighter 2/Lion Totem Barbarian 1/Swashbuckler 1/Warblade X

Feats: TWF, ITWF, GTWF, Lightning Mace, Roundabout Kick, Snap Kick, Eviscerator, Improved Critical, plus prerequisites.

Weapons: Two Aptitude Enfeebling Lifedrinker Abyssal Bloodiron Kukris

Maneuvers: Blood in the Water, Dancing/Raging Mongoose/White Raven Tactics/Iron Heart Surge, etc. Eventually, Time Stands Still.

Basic tactic: You crit on a 15-20 and have a large bonus to confirm (Int + 1, IIRC), and every critical threat gives a new attack. Every successful critical generates another new attack, in addition to a stacking +1 bonus to hit and to damage and causing 1d6+2 strength damage (even if they're immune to crits). And every hit deals two negative levels. As such, you charge up with every attack but your enemy gets weaker and weaker. The Blood in the Water bonuses expire if you don't crit for a minute, so you'll do best if you keep charging in and try to keep momentum going. Try getting someone to use Black Sand to kill someone and using the resultant black sand to keep you slow healing (1d6 per round) so you can keep up the pressure without draining your party resources on healing you. Getting someone to raise a Necrosis Carnex to support you can help too.

Make sure when you're turned Necropolitan you have someone do it in a Desecrated area near an evil alter for +2 hit points per level. It's best to have a UA variant Necromancer or Dread Necromancer do it for the extra 2hp/HD and free +4 Str and Dex Enhancement Bonus.

Also, pump Int and Dex... nothing else matters at all.

JaronK

[NeoSeraphi]

No no, it was. And thank you for your input. So your build would look something like this then?

Sorcerer 6/Incantatrix 10/Full Spellcaster 4

Feats:

Iron Will (1)
Maximize Spell (3)
Split Ray (6)
Empower Spell (Bonus Incantatrix)
Arcane Thesis (Enervation) (9)
Repeat Spell (Bonus Incantatrix)
Twin Spell (Bonus Incantatrix)
Practical Metamagic (Twin Spell) (12)
Practical Metamagic (Repeat Spell) (15)
Practical Metamagic (Maximize Spell) (18)

So then, I cast arcane spellsurge or greater arcane fusion and start firing off enervation (4) + maximize (0) + empower spell (0), + repeat spell (0) + twin spell (1) + split ray (0) for a 5th level spell that takes a standard action and a normal enervation as a swift action with spellsurge, for ...how many exactly? So if it's split first, then twinned, then repeated, that's 6 rays, right? So a total of 24+7d4 negative levels, starting at level 18?

[NeoSeraphi]

snip

Sorry for being so clueless but I need some clarification, what is the Eviscerator feat, and what are the Abyssal and Bloodiron weapon enhancements?

[NeoSeraphi]

Hey, I understand. If you don't play in Eberron or have an all-books-open group, it's not the kind of thing that comes up. That said, I personally consider them to be the strongest members of T1, even though that's debatable.

As for the Truenamer . . . I'd probably laugh, honestly. You've gotta remember that most of my D&D friends were there when I had my Truenaming experience. If it were someone new, who somehow didn't know that I'm The Truenamer Guy . . . I'd sit them down and have a nice little chat with them. It would be pleasant. We'd just go through Tome of Magic page by page and look at all the new and exciting ways it fails. It would be a lovely bonding experience.

Every game that I've been in has been open-booked, just no one ever wanted to play an artificer, except in one game where we didn't play past third level (My lease expired mid-game and I had to move a few cities away).

And uh, sorry if mentioning the Truenamer opened an old wound.

[JaronK]

Sorry for being so clueless but I need some clarification, what is the Eviscerator feat, and what are the Abyssal and Bloodiron weapon enhancements?

Eviscerator is in Libris Mortis. It's undead only, requires a bunch of prerequisites (hence the number of feat giving classes in that build) and makes every living enemy shaken for a minute every time you critically hit. If others in your party can make other stacking fear effects, it's quite good.

Abyssal Bloodiron is in Fiendish Codex, and like Solarian Truesteel it's a material that gives a mundane bonus to confirming critical hits. It also functions like Cold Iron. It's hardly critical to the build, but it does help. Truesteel would be good too, but feels less thematic.

JaronK

[NeoSeraphi]

Thank you Jaron. That build is very helpful.

[Godskook]

You can fusion inside your greater fusions. I can't remember what the spell levels involved are for everything, but even without sanctum spell abuse, you can surely squeeze even more negative levels into it.

And then there's Arcane Preperation, allowing you to prepare half your combo ahead of time to fit a standard-action metamagic into the combo as well.

[maximus25]

Play a wight, get a scythe grafted to you to make it a natural attack (Fiend folio) Now when you hit things they hurt and gain negative levels. Profit.

[PersonMan]

Oh, nice. What level can you start binding it?

1.

It's caused Binder to become a frequent dip for Warlock/Hellfire Warlock builds(which take 1 Con damage to get +6d6 damage on a blast).

So you could be, say, a Wizard 5/Binder 1/Metaphysical Spellshaper 3/Fullcaster 11, losing one 1 caster level. So if you use, say, Fell Drain, you take 1 ability damage per round(which you heal) for a negative level on every spell you cast, if you don't use any other metamagics.

I'm AFB at the moment, but I think that you spontaneously decide whether or not to metamagic-via-ability damage your spells, which is nice.

[Squiggles]

You can also use Circlet of Enervation from the Shining South book to bestow a negative level(fort negates) and deal 2d6 damage and you get make an attack with it every round for 1 round/level

There is also Necrotic Skull Bomb from Champions of Ruin for that good old AoE in a 20 ft radius Enervation (Bonus points that it's casting time is a Swift Action)

[dextercorvia]

There is nothing wrong with a Fell Draining Power Word Pain at low levels.

[NeoSeraphi]

You can also use Circlet of Enervation from the Shining South book to bestow a negative level(fort negates) and deal 2d6 damage and you get make an attack with it every round for 1 round/level

There is also Necrotic Skull Bomb from Champions of Ruin for that good old AoE in a 20 ft radius Enervation (Bonus points that it's casting time is a Swift Action)

Necrotic Skull Bomb sounds very useful. Does it have the [evil] descriptor?

[Squiggles]

Necrotic Skull Bomb sounds very useful. Does it have the [evil] descriptor?

Nope, just plain old Necromancy

[Lonely Tylenol]

Wizard 5/Incantatrix 10 with the following feats:
Arcane Thesis (Enervation)
Maximize Spell
Empower Spell
Twin Spell
Split Ray
Invisible Spell
City Spell

Deals 16 + 4d2 negative levels to a single target, but can be divided as you wish, as a 4th-level spell (Enervation 4 + Maximize 1 + Empower 0 + Twin 1 + Split Ray 0 - Invisible 1 - City 1 = 4).

Chain Spell can be applied to mass-effect the entire enemy brigade, as a 5th-level spell.

Also, you can do this a second time in the same turn as a 6th-level spell (7th with Chain) by using Quicken.

Wizard 5/Incantatrix 10 also gives you five bonus Metamagic feats (at 5, 6, 9, 12, and 15), which pays almost all the feat tax of this combo. You will have enough feats to do everything here, plus grab Fell Drain (which is now a +0 adjustment when on Enervation), and grab Fell Animate with Easy Metamagic (Fell Animate), which turns it into a net +0 adjustment on Enervation (+1 otherwise), and turns everything your energy draining spells successfully kill into zombies under your command.

TL;DR you can, at level 15, kill an entire room full of CR-appropriate enemies with a single Enervation, cast at its original level, who then rise to fight as your companions next turn.

[NeoSeraphi]

Wizard 5/Incantatrix 10 with the following feats:
Arcane Thesis (Enervation)
Maximize Spell
Empower Spell
Twin Spell
Split Ray
Invisible Spell
City Spell

Deals 16 + 4d2 negative levels to a single target, but can be divided as you wish, as a 4th-level spell (Enervation 4 + Maximize 1 + Empower 0 + Twin 1 + Split Ray 0 - Invisible 1 - City 1 = 4).

Chain Spell can be applied to mass-effect the entire enemy brigade, as a 5th-level spell.

Also, you can do this a second time in the same turn as a 6th-level spell (7th with Chain) by using Quicken.

Wizard 5/Incantatrix 10 also gives you five bonus Metamagic feats (at 5, 6, 9, 12, and 15), which pays almost all the feat tax of this combo. You will have enough feats to do everything here, plus grab Fell Drain (which is now a +0 adjustment when on Enervation), and grab Fell Animate with Easy Metamagic (Fell Animate), which turns it into a net +0 adjustment on Enervation (+1 otherwise), and turns everything your energy draining spells successfully kill into zombies under your command.

TL;DR you can, at level 15, kill an entire room full of CR-appropriate enemies with a single Enervation, cast at its original level, who then rise to fight as your companions next turn.


It's a nice thought, but I don't think Fell Drain works on spells that don't deal hit point damage. I'm not sure about Fell Animate, but it does say in the feat text "You may alter a spell that deals damage to your foes"

[Claudius Maximus]

Would Black Lore of Moil change that?

[NeoSeraphi]

Would Black Lore of Moil change that?

That...that's an interesting question. Would it? I don't even know. I mean, then enervate would be dealing damage, but...

[Lonely Tylenol]

It's a nice thought, but I don't think Fell Drain works on spells that don't deal hit point damage. I'm not sure about Fell Animate, but it does say in the feat text "You may alter a spell that deals damage to your foes"

Apologies - I was away from books and posting in a hurry, so I didn't check to be sure that the hit point loss from negative levels:


A creature takes the following penalties for each negative level it has gained:

-1 on all skill checks and ability checks.
-1 on attack rolls and saving throws.
-5 hit points.
-1 effective level (whenever the creature’s level is used in a die roll or calculation, reduce it by one for each negative level).
If the victim casts spells, she loses access to one spell as if she had cast her highest-level, currently available spell. (If she has more than one spell at her highest level, she chooses which she loses.) In addition, when she next prepares spells or regains spell slots, she gets one less spell slot at her highest spell level.

Made it compatible with Fell Metamagic.

If it doesn't, explore Black Lore of Moil (cannot remember if it is +0, but if it is, it can replace City Spell), but remember that the Fells are just gravy - the rest of the post is the meat.

[NeoSeraphi]

Ah, but I want the maximum amount of negative levels possible. If the loss of hit points from negative levels is enough to trigger Fell Animate, to the point where I could make enervation 1d4+1 instead of just 1d4, that would be a good breakthrough as well.

Edit: And also, reanimating all I kill with negative levels is some pretty juicy gravy.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Ah, but I want the maximum amount of negative levels possible. If the loss of hit points from negative levels is enough to trigger Fell Animate, to the point where I could make enervation 1d4+1 instead of just 1d4, that would be a good breakthrough as well.

Edit: And also, reanimating all I kill with negative levels is some pretty juicy gravy.

If you want the maximum possible, apply all the same cheese to the ninth-level spell Energy Drain, which has a 2d4 base and can get over 50 negative levels with the same trick (assuming Fell Drain works)!

The problem with that is you need a DM who is liberal enough with the rules to let you apply Maximize Spell to a spell that is already level 9, since without the use of other metamagics it can't be done, but if said DM let you get this far, I think you'll do alright; you just need to wait until level 18 for it to come online (Arcane Thesis on Energy Drain after you get Energy Drain at 17).

No matter what you do, however, it will never be as flexible as Enervation, since it can't be cast below 9th-level, and your daily castings are limited to the number of 9th-level spells you can cast. Enervation, by contrast, can be metamagicked even further, allowing you to apply more cool effects like Chain and Quicken, as well as to cast it at different levels (meaning more castings!).

I mean, it's not like you will ever need to strip a monster of up to 50 negative levels, so at some point you have to decide that bigger isn't better.

Edit: Yeah, Fell Animate is some pretty juicy gravy. That combo is "main antagonist" material for any campaign, especially since negative levels are so hard to combat.

[NeoSeraphi]

Well, that's also a fair point. Enervation is probably my best bet to spam, along with that necrotic skull bomb spell...

[Claudius Maximus]

You might also want to optimize dispelling, since every enemy that hears about you is likely to go seek out Death Ward effects.

[NeoSeraphi]

You might also want to optimize dispelling, since every enemy that hears about you is likely to go seek out Death Ward effects.

Good idea. Good thing dispel magic uses up 3rd level spell slots. Hmm...wonder if I can somehow make dispel magic do negative levels?

Is there a way to change the school of a spell you cast? Maybe make it a necromancy spell so Black Lore of Moil would affect it?

[Dusk Eclipse]

Not that I know of; but you can use reaving dispell which deals damage based on what spells you dispel. I think level 4th spell

[Lonely Tylenol]

Good idea. Good thing dispel magic uses up 3rd level spell slots. Hmm...wonder if I can somehow make dispel magic do negative levels?

Is there a way to change the school of a spell you cast? Maybe make it a necromancy spell so Black Lore of Moil would affect it?

You could use Slashing Dispel, which inflicts a small amount of damage when a spell is successfully dispelled.

But... Level 4.

[Eloel]

You could use Slashing Dispel, which inflicts a small amount of damage when a spell is successfully dispelled.

But... Level 4.

Damage? Add Fell Drain :smallbiggrin:

[NeoSeraphi]

Dispel, damage and drain, all for the price of one standard action? It's a triple D-light!

Would you please tell me the sourcebooks for slashing dispel and reaving dispel?

[MeeposFire]

slashing dispel is from the PHB2 I think.

[NeoSeraphi]

Alright, so I found slashing dispel, and the damage is pitiful but that's what makes it beautiful. A little pinprick is all I need to bring you that much closer to death.

Found reaving dispel too, but it's a 9th level spell that steals effects without dealing damage, so I guess Dusk meant slashing dispel too.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Alright, so I found slashing dispel, and the damage is pitiful but that's what makes it beautiful. A little pinprick is all I need to bring you that much closer to death.

Found reaving dispel too, but it's a 9th level spell that steals effects without dealing damage, so I guess Dusk meant slashing dispel too.

:smallredface: Yeah my bad...

[NecroRick]

Normal people craft the wand with the metamagic on it. (There's an item that gets around this, but that's an exception, not a rule.)


Not sure if the item you are referring to the Metamagic Wandgrip? P133 Complete Mage - retails for 6000gp, costs 3000gp, 240xp, requires Craft Wondrous Item, Metamagic Spell Trigger (feat on p45 of same book), caster level 6.

If you're an artificer you might be able to fake the feat with a UMD roll?
Otherwise you then have to bat your eyes at the DM and he might let you make them once you've hit level 7 (and gained the Metamagic Spell Trigger that way)... but at that point the item is redundant (for you anyway)

Note that Metamagic Spell Trigger and Metamagic Spell Trigger are almost but not quite identical. The primary difference being that Metamagic Spell Trigger requires you to know the item creation feat for the item you are modifying (hence the swap 6 with 7 - see below) whereas Metamagic Spell Trigger doesn't.



Artificers, on the other hand, burn extra charges to apply the metamagic to a normal wand. Check out their level 6 feature.


Just a note - the errata swaps the 6th and 7th level class features around.



It's disgustingly powerful. Yes, you can burn through an entire wand in a couple encounters if you REALLY use a Twinned Split Ray Maximized Empowered Quickened Repeating Enervation (and again, without the Quicken) on every turn, but 1) you don't have to bring out the full auto every time, and 2) you can craft wands for disgustingly low prices, so really, you can afford to do so.


I'm not quite seeing it by RAW:



Benefit: You can apply any one metamagic feat


(emphasis added)

The other version of Metamagic Spell Trigger can be read similarly, substituting "a metamagic feat" for "one metamagic feat".



You can apply any one metamagic feat you know to a wand placed within the wandgrip


(emphasis added)

I leave it as a matter of speculation about whether you can use the class feature and wand grip and the feat to apply three different metamagics...

Of course, by the time you can buy the feat you probably don't want/need to



Crazy metamagic wandificers (and, later, stafficers) are absurdly broken. (Honestly, ANY Artificer taking heavy advantage of his class features is pretty broken.)

You know, the funny thing is that isn't even the most broken thing with respect to Artificers applying metamagic to an item - not by a long shot.

For the real brokenness I invite you to turn to page 113 of the Eberron Campaign Setting and bask in the glory.

------- other stuff -------

Now then, I believe there may have been a question about whether or not negative levels count as damage (for questions such as whether you can add Fell Drain to Enervation).

If the DM rules that adding negative levels isn't doing damage per se, then instead of Twinned, you need to bust out Chained (see Chain Spell). So really, either way works well for you. :D

Normally it wouldn't really be worth maximising an Enervation or other d4 based spell - consider Maximised vs Empowered:

Empowered
1->1 (rounds down, natch)
2->3
3->4
4->6

This is an average of 14/4 for empowered whereas maximised 'only' does 16/4 on average.

But with a chained Enervation, if your DM does crack and concede that negative levels = damage, then you want the maximised value, because the chain recipients only take half (and then can save for half of that even if the spell doesn't normally allow a save).

Twinned and Maximised is 8 negative levels to a single target.
Maximised and Chained is 4 negative levels + either 1 per level or 2 per level to up to (levels) targets. If you're biffing this stuff around let's assume you're level 8... you do 16-24 negative levels with a single Chained Maximised Enervation.

Now Chained is only a +3 modifier, so a combat could go like this:

Round 1 - you use the mega-abuse from p113, giving yourself free maximises on that wand for the remainder of the combat, without increasing the number of charges :D
Round 2 - you use your class feature to Chain the Maximised Enervations, using 4 charges
Round 3 - repeat
Round 4 - only the BBEG (big bad evil guy) is left, you now hand the wand to someone else with UMD who has a better BAB than you, and you wander off, or stare into space, or bury your head in a book while they whittle him down, 4 negative levels a round, each use costing only a single charge...

If you were to additionally add Fell Drain to an Enervation, then the Empower vs Maximise comparison gets even more interesting:

Empowered Enervation + Fell Drain
1+1->3
2+1->4 (rounds down, natch)
3+1->6
4+1->7

Both do an average of 20/4 or 5. So you can save yourself a single charge with each use if you like...

[Lonely Tylenol]

Now then, I believe there may have been a question about whether or not negative levels count as damage (for questions such as whether you can add Fell Drain to Enervation).

Actually, I don't know about the others, but I'm beyond that - City Spell in the above list was simply a placeholder for "arbitrary +0 metamagic feat", which was really only there because Arcane Thesis makes it a net -1 spell level adjustment for Enervation. Not only does City Spell not actually work (Enervation does not have an energy descriptor), but Black Lore of Moil is so much better for the spell (as far as a +0 adjustment goes) that it merits using in its place anyway, so long as you have the skulls ready to do it. Black Lore opens up the Fell metamagics and doesn't actually cost you another feat slot, since it's replacing a feat you didn't need anyway.

[That_guy_there]

Fell Drain shenanigans are, as noted, awesome.

There's also the Soul Eater PrC from BoVD, which can deal negative levels at-will with a touch (one at a time at 1st level, 2 at a time at 7th). A conservative reading says that doing so takes a standard action, but a more permissive reading says that it happens whenever you touch an enemy . . . which means that a Flurry of Pokes from a Monk (just making touch attacks, not trying to hit hard) would be fantastic.

Agreed. I have recently used such an interpretation in a 15th level game. The set up was everyone had to take either half-dragon or half-fiend and I realized that as a half dragon i'd be a "dragon type" and thus quailify (once i filled the other parts) for Soul Eater.

Also of note is that a 9th level anyone the Soul Eater completely drains of energy becomes a wight under his command. Unless I missed erata for the BoVD, there is no stated limit to how many wights you can create/ control in this way.

[NeoSeraphi]

Agreed. I have recently used such an interpretation in a 15th level game. The set up was everyone had to take either half-dragon or half-fiend and I realized that as a half dragon i'd be a "dragon type" and thus quailify (once i filled the other parts) for Soul Eater.

Also of note is that a 9th level anyone the Soul Eater completely drains of energy becomes a wight under his command. Unless I missed erata for the BoVD, there is no stated limit to how many wights you can create/ control in this way.

Wait, what? That sounds like the best BBEG prestige class ever! Thanks for that information!

[Hunter Killer]

Oh damn. There are some gross ideas in this thread. Negative level inducing dispel? Yikes... :smalleek:

I think I'm going to use something as discussed in this thread as a BBEG, but I'm really concerned about possible TPK's. What could counter this strategy?

The idea is that I'd like to introduce the negative level drain in small increments with creatures and spells that don't abuse them to much, while slowly dropping hints on possible counters. Then - BAM! Here's the BBEG!

[NeoSeraphi]

Countering negative levels? The easiest solution is restoration, but that only applies after a battle (3 round casting time makes it a bit inviable during combat)

[That_guy_there]

Easier than restoration is the "Ring Of Negative Energy Protection" in the MIC page 126. the wearer cannot gain negative levels. All for 36,000gp.

I used that gem to counter a DM inspired Enervating Vampire.

[NecroRick]

Doesn't Death Ward do that? (Protect you before you get the negative levels that is, of course it can't help you after you've gained them)

[That_guy_there]

Doesn't Death Ward do that? (Protect you before you get the negative levels that is, of course it can't help you after you've gained them)

It does indeed. the ring does it all the time though... just in case there is no time for a casting.

[NeoSeraphi]

Doesn't Death Ward do that? (Protect you before you get the negative levels that is, of course it can't help you after you've gained them)

Yes, but it's a 4th level spell that only affects one person that you touch. Unless you got a DMM Persisting Cleric to throw one on every character, it's not going to save you from the crippling ability that just one optimized enervation can deal.

[TroubleBrewing]

@JaronK:

Thanks for that. I needed a HHH (high-level horrifying henchthing) for my next BBEG, and I think I've found it.

[Hunter Killer]

Huh. It doesn't sound like there's a whole lot you can do to counter negative level damage without out-right preventing it or dispelling the spells that deal it.

:smallannoyed:

What about somehow decreasing the casting time of Restoration? Is that even possible? I know Quicken Spell doesn't work because it's more than a Standard Action to cast, but is there something else?

I'd really like to use this idea to it's maximum potential, but I really don't want to cripple two or three players a round without them being able to resist or reverse the effects. I also don't want them to out-right be immune, although Dispel-ing is fine.

Any ideas, ladies and/or gents?

[NeoSeraphi]

Huh. It doesn't sound like there's a whole lot you can do to counter negative level damage without out-right preventing it or dispelling the spells that deal it.

:smallannoyed:

What about somehow decreasing the casting time of Restoration? Is that even possible? I know Quicken Spell doesn't work because it's more than a Standard Action to cast, but is there something else?

I'd really like to use this idea to it's maximum potential, but I really don't want to cripple two or three players a round without them being able to resist or reverse the effects. I also don't want them to out-right be immune, although Dispel-ing is fine.

Any ideas, ladies and/or gents?

Not even heal removes negative levels. They're just hard to get rid of. That's why BBEGs usually can only bestow one or two a round.

[Shadowknight12]

Enduring Life, from Libris Mortis, pretty much negates the benefits of using negative levels in combat. The wording of the feat is ambiguous, but you can definitely justify delaying even death by negative levels with that feat.

That actually gives you plenty of time to deal with the negative-level-dealing nuisance and cast Restoration before those negative levels have time to "assert" themselves.

[noparlpf]

Get Enervating weapons (I think Magic Item Compendium). Be a Ranger with the Two-Weapon fighting style. Dual-wield Enervating kukri. Take Improved Critical, Power Critical and Favored Critical. Against a favored enemy, 45% crit rate with every hit. Against any other enemy, 30% crit rate with every hit. Just make your favored enemies things you're likely to see in your campaign (yay for metagaming!). Try to get a houserule that "humanoid" encompasses the entire range of humanoids and not just specific species, using the argument that you don't need to choose "Favored Enemy: Animal: Black Bear", it's just all animals; likewise for most other creature types.
Enervating can be increased to Souldrinking (a synergy quality), but that just makes the negative levels have a chance to become permanent. Hopefully your target will be dead in under a minute like a typical combat, so don't bother with Souldrinking.

The Necrotic Focus quality also allows you to channel a natural energy drain ability through a manufactured weapon, but that means you'd have to have a level adjustment.

Cheers!

[TroubleBrewing]

Just make your favored enemies things you're likely to see in your campaign (yay for metagaming!). Try to get a houserule that "humanoid" encompasses the entire range of humanoids and not just specific species, using the argument that you don't need to choose "Favored Enemy: Animal: Black Bear", it's just all animals; likewise for most other creature types.

I think the OP was looking for suggestions that are more "rules oriented" than "blatant cheating"... :smallannoyed:

[noparlpf]

I think the OP was looking for suggestions that are more "rules oriented" than "blatant cheating"... :smallannoyed:

Well, the only part of my idea that isn't by the books is expanding "humanoid" to encompass all humanoids and not just one species at a time. The rest of it is fine.

Get Enervating weapons (I think Magic Item Compendium). Be a Ranger with the Two-Weapon fighting style. Dual-wield Enervating kukri. Take Improved Critical, Power Critical and Favored Critical. Against a favored enemy, 45% crit rate with every hit. Against any other enemy, 30% crit rate with every hit.
(And with Power Critical, you get a +4 to confirm crit threats.)
All of that is completely legal.

[JaronK]

@JaronK:

Thanks for that. I needed a HHH (high-level horrifying henchthing) for my next BBEG, and I think I've found it.

Just be aware those swords will be very valuable to your PCs. Of course, they're unusable to anyone who isn't already immune to negative levels. He's also quite vulnerable to turning... I recommend using Disguise to make him look like he's still alive.

JaronK

[Vladislav]

Get Leadership. Get wands of Fell Drain Sonic Snap (each fully-charged wand costs 2250 gp and 180 XP to make, or 4500 gp to buy). Make sure your followers are Wizards, or any class that can use those wands. Give each a wand, sit back and enjoy.

[noparlpf]

What about somehow decreasing the casting time of Restoration? Is that even possible? I know Quicken Spell doesn't work because it's more than a Standard Action to cast, but is there something else?

Doesn't it only take a standard action to activate a scroll? I will cite the Order of the Stick comic on this. I'm pretty sure that's why they were using scrolls of Sending. The section of the DMG I remember reading is a little bit vague on that point, so my group usually just calls activating a scroll a standard action.

[Vladislav]

Doesn't it only take a standard action to activate a scroll? I will cite the Order of the Stick comic on this. I'm pretty sure that's why they were using scrolls of Sending. The section of the DMG I remember reading is a little bit vague on that point, so my group usually just calls activating a scroll a standard action.No, scroll is standard action unless the original spell has greater casting time.

[noparlpf]

No, scroll is standard action unless the original spell has greater casting time.

Huh. That's a pain.

[TroubleBrewing]

Just be aware those swords will be very valuable to your PCs.

See, here's the thing I have a question about. I thought Lifedrinker was axe-specific?

[Dusk Eclipse]

See, here's the thing I have a question about. I thought Lifedrinker was axe-specific?

There are rules in the MIC to lift weapon-specific enhancements and add them to any other weapon, such as life-drinking.

[TroubleBrewing]

There are rules in the MIC to lift weapon-specific enhancements and add them to any other weapon, such as life-drinking.


Ah. I really should get around to reading that one cover-to-cover one of these days. I miss so much stuff.

[dextercorvia]

What about somehow decreasing the casting time of Restoration? Is that even possible? I know Quicken Spell doesn't work because it's more than a Standard Action to cast, but is there something else?

Rapid Spell reduces the casting time to 1 round.

Uncanny Forethought will let you cast any spell as (at most) a full-round action, but has Spell Mastery as a Prereq. You have to somehow get Restoration on your list and be a Wizard. You can do it with a Wizard dip on an Archivist or Cleric build. That's also a good set-up for Dweomerkeeper, which brings me to my last method. If you get Restoration as a SLA or Su ability (unless it specifies otherwise) you can use it as a Standard action.

[opticalshadow]

per raw you could just carry around quivers of aligned arrows, and hand them out, killing people and raises ghosts.

idk how practical combat would be, but it woudl be fund for a while.

[Squiggles]

Mm depending on your race you could also choose Fey'ri from Races of Faerun and choose Enervation 1/day as one of your racials, if you have free LA buyoff or what not, since it'll bump it up to +3

[Thurbane]

Countering negative levels? The easiest solution is restoration, but that only applies after a battle (3 round casting time makes it a bit inviable during combat)
The group I DM'd EtCR for knew they were going to be fighting vampires and other undead nasties, so they all loaded up on Spurn Death's Touch, Enduring Life, Unquenchable Flame of Life and similar feats to the point where I basically couldn't level drain them at all... :smalltongue:

[Tr011]

Is there any way to do more than nothing against a negative level immune enemy? I mean without using another tactic?

[Person_Man]

If you're going to use a melee build that relies on critical hits, I would suggest working in at least 5 levels of Binder and the Improved Binder feat so that you can bind the Kas vestige (Dragon Magazine 341). With it, enemies that you Crit are permanently Blinded (Will Save Negates), and you can Crit undead. Binder also gets immunity to Negative Levels and Energy Drain as a default class ability at 13th level if they want to use Lifedrinkers without blowing a level on Necropolitan.

You might also want to consider adding in Destruction Devotion, which reduces the target's AC by 1 point (2 at 10 level or higher) each time you hit them. FYI, if your players ever decide they want to pretend to be Conan and steal from an Evil church, be sure to give all of the cultist mooks Destruction Devotion. It's hilarious (for the DM).

I would also observe that Lifedrinkers don't require a crit or allow a Save (until one day later - at which point they are already dead). So all you really need is lots of attacks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7066595). JaronK's Aptitude Lightning Mace suggestion does a good job of that. But I think it would be more efficient to use the Multiweapon Fighting feat tree instead. A Kobold with a Draconic Tail (Races of the Dragon) and the Prehensile Tail (Serpent Kingdoms) feats qualifies, and/or you can go with Demonbinder or or Fang of Lolth or Diopsid or Tako or non-psionic Thri-Kreen or whatever. How many attacks you get depends on how many arms you have and how many feats you sink into it. But it's fairly easy to get 9+ attacks by mid-levels, and a lot more if you further invest in AoO combos.