Elemental planetouched templates - rating needed

[Yora]

I've done some dabbling in creating LA +1 templates for psionic planetouched characters. I think I've them now in a presentable form and would like some oppinions if this seems like a solid LA +1:

Air Element
- Type changes to Monstrous Humanoid or Magical Beast
- (air) + any subtypes of base creature
- +2 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence
- Low-light vision
- Naturally Psionic: 2 additional power points
- No penalties when using Balance, Climb, and Tumble at full movement speeed.
- LA: +1

Earth Element
- Type changes to Monstrous Humanoid or Magical Beast
- (earth) + any subtypes of base creature
- +2 Strength, +2 Constitution
- Darkvision 60 ft.
- Naturally Psionic: 2 additional power points
- Stability: +4 on checks to resist Bull Rush and Trip
- LA: +1

Fire Element
- Type changes to Monstrous Humanoid or Magical Beast
- (fire) + any subtypes of base creature
- +2 Intelligence, +2 Charisma
- Low-light vision
- Naturally Psionic: 2 additional power points
- Resistance to Fire 10
- LA: +1

Water Element
- Type changes to Monstrous Humanoid or Magical Beast
- (water) + any subtypes of base creature
- +2 Constitution, +2 Wisdom
- Low-light vision
- Naturally Psionic: 2 additional power points
- Water breathing
- Swim speed 30 ft. (+8 to Swim checks)
- LA: +1

Thoughts?

[Zeta Kai]

They seem fairly weak, & I doubt that many players would find the LA really worth it. That said, they are relatively well balanced, & fit in well with WotC-made monster races. I would increase the ability score bonuses to an average of +8-10, as well as give them Darkvision. You might wanna do something special for the Air/Earth ones, as the Fire/Water ones have better qualities, IMO.

[Yora]

These are templates in addition to the traits of the base creature. If you heap all this on a dwarf or halfling, I think that's easily a +1.
Or do you think that's still on the weak side for LA+1?

[Cieyrin]

These are templates in addition to the traits of the base creature. If you heap all this on a dwarf or halfling, I think that's easily a +1.
Or do you think that's still on the weak side for LA+1?

The thing is that the templates are considered by themselves for how much power they contribute to determine the LA they confer, not what they're stacked on. Doesn't matter if it's added to a Human or a Whisper Gnome, they get the same LA adjustment.

That said, you couldn't even apply these to humanoids, as your templates explicitly say they only affect monstrous humanoids or magical beasts or is that saying what their type changes to?

If you want an easy way to buff the templates up, I'd put an extraordinary but limited movement mode on each type. Glide on Air, +10' Land speed on Fire, a Climb speed or Earth Glide Con rounds/day for Earth and Water, since it already has its own special movement, Cold Resistance or Freedom of Movement Wis rounds/day (Water tends to come off weak whenever elemental systems come up, so why not buff it up significantly? :smallwink:).

[Yora]

No, the type changes to monstrous humanoid or magical beast.

I guess to make solid LA +1 templates, the benefits should be about equal to taking 1 level in a paragon class or something like that, which would be good enough to be seriously considered as an option.

But I think as they are, they are better than tieflings or genasi, and that's even before you add the racial traits of the base creature. Which could be seen as a statement how bad tieflings and genasi are for LA +1, but what are good guidelines for LA +1 races without racial HD?

[Tacitus]

The planetouched as they are in WotC are usually allowed in their Lesser forms, ie LA +0 for being weak to humanoid and outsider specific spells.

A +1LA template that is generally seen as middle of the road or fairly good is Draconic. +2 Str/Con/Cha, +1 NA, +2 Spot/Intimidate, Claws, (Dragonblood) and I think some vision and sleep/paralysis stuff. As a baseline, thats not a terrible place to start.

[Othniel Edden]

Maybe add a skill set and minor immunity? (like Elven magic sleep immunity?)

[Hazzardevil]

The problem with LA is that you don't gain a HD or BAB when you take it.
So a Tiefling with all 4 of these templates would be missing 5 BAB and HD if he would have taken fighter instead.
That means you miss your 4th iterative attack and a feat.
As well as a huge chunck of hit points.
Maybe make it a racial class with 8+ skill points, full BAB and those abilitys?

[Yora]

A 1 level racial progression does indeed seem to be the most elegant solution.
However, I'm also thinking of using them for E6 characters, and there you really want to avoid racial HD.

[Hazzardevil]

But is RHD still RHD when it has class features?

[Hazzardevil]

But is RHD still RHD when it has class features?

[YouLostMe]

But is RHD still RHD when it has class features?

That was so important, he had to say it twice.

I'm honestly in favor of getting 1 HD for this. If you're making a legit class with BAB and Saves that aren't +0, you might need to drop the Strength of Constitution bonus.

Earth Planetouched d4 HD
{table]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Wil|Special
1|+0|+0|+0|+0|Earth Planetouched Traits, Naturally Psionic|[/table]
Skills: 2 + Int (fighter list)

Earth Planetouched Traits: You gain the following.
Darkvision 60'
Stability: +4 on checks to resist Bull Rush and Trip
+2 racial bonus to Strength and Constitution
Naturally Psionic: For whatever magic voodoo reason, you're treated as though your casting stat were 2 higher for purposes of bonus power points.

Alternatively, I recommend making these templates LA +0, offering either the bonus to one stat or the bonus to another.

[Hazzardevil]

In the late monster class thread bonuses to stats where the norm, and this is frankly a monster class.

[YouLostMe]

In the late monster class thread bonuses to stats where the norm, and this is frankly a monster class.

You could say that of every template, and yet we had less than a fifth of the total WotC templates hanging out there.

The E6 statement is really what gets me, though. I mean, in E6, every level you advance is a sixth of the progress you'll ever make. And that's a pretty big deal, so adding one level of a racial class means you only get 5 to be a wizard or fighter or whatever. As such, an E6 sorcerer taking one of these levels would never get 3rd-level spells (of course, he wouldn't get them with an LA +1 template either unless you did that EXP buy-back thing).

Since this is made for E6, I honestly recommend making it a race of its own, or toning it down to an LA +0.

[Cieyrin]

You could say that of every template, and yet we had less than a fifth of the total WotC templates hanging out there.

The E6 statement is really what gets me, though. I mean, in E6, every level you advance is a sixth of the progress you'll ever make. And that's a pretty big deal, so adding one level of a racial class means you only get 5 to be a wizard or fighter or whatever. As such, an E6 sorcerer taking one of these levels would never get 3rd-level spells (of course, he wouldn't get them with an LA +1 template either unless you did that EXP buy-back thing).

Since this is made for E6, I honestly recommend making it a race of its own, or toning it down to an LA +0.

LA works differently in E6. All it means is you get lesser point buy than an LA +0 guy does.

[Hazzardevil]

You could say that of every template, and yet we had less than a fifth of the total WotC templates hanging out there.

The E6 statement is really what gets me, though. I mean, in E6, every level you advance is a sixth of the progress you'll ever make. And that's a pretty big deal, so adding one level of a racial class means you only get 5 to be a wizard or fighter or whatever. As such, an E6 sorcerer taking one of these levels would never get 3rd-level spells (of course, he wouldn't get them with an LA +1 template either unless you did that EXP buy-back thing).

Since this is made for E6, I honestly recommend making it a race of its own, or toning it down to an LA +0.

You would need penalties for 0 LA though.
If your a caster though, your not going to lose CL and losiing your 6th level of fighter doesn't give you anything useful, and dipping a level of Barbarian or a martial Initiater.

[YouLostMe]

LA works differently in E6. All it means is you get lesser point buy than an LA +0 guy does.

4srs? Cool beans. Disregard all statements I have made about LA problems if the point-buy penalty is small enough. If you can still take all six levels, then have a blast.

[Cieyrin]

4srs? Cool beans. Disregard all statements I have made about LA problems if the point-buy penalty is small enough. If you can still take all six levels, then have a blast.

LA +0 is 32 point buy, LA +1 is 25. With LA +1's typical ability boosts, I think that's a fair trade.