Melee Bard

[ExemplarofAvg]

I don't need help so much as a straight build, our group needs a support character, I've heard good things about bard+(crusader/warblade) What I'd like in any build you might suggest or link to is: Bard Levels, Crusader Levels (I think Crusader would work better for any character fluff I come up with), Snowflake Wardance, and Song of the White Raven, And some way to increase spellcasting if possible. (I'm pretty sure all of that is obvious to those that know what they're doing, which is why I'm deferring to you.) My players thank you greatly.

[Flickerdart]

Song of the White Raven does not boost your Bardic Music uses per day. If you want to use Snowflake Wardance as well, you'll need 8 bardic music uses (4 for songs, 4 for dance every encounter). Bard 6/Crusader 14 will give you 9th level maneuvers. Take Extra Music and now you have 10 Bardic Music uses, which means you have 2 to spare for using Fascinate+Suggestion on people.

There is no way to combine this with spellcasting progression, however, as Song of the White Raven doesn't stack with Jade Phoenix Mage, the PrC normally used for stacking casting and ToB together.

[Morbis Meh]

I recommend Warblade over Crusader, feats: Dragonfire Inspiration, Song of the Heart, Snowflake Wardance (a must for melee bards), words of creation, practiced spellcaster if you are planning on taking more than a few levels of warblade.

[ExemplarofAvg]

Song of the White Raven does not boost your Bardic Music uses per day. If you want to use Snowflake Wardance as well, you'll need 8 bardic music uses (4 for songs, 4 for dance every encounter). Bard 6/Crusader 14 will give you 9th level maneuvers. Take Extra Music and now you have 10 Bardic Music uses, which means you have 2 to spare for using Fascinate+Suggestion on people.

There is no way to combine this with spellcasting progression, however, as Song of the White Raven doesn't stack with Jade Phoenix Mage, the PrC normally used for stacking casting and ToB together.

I'm aware of the first part, SotWR only lets me use Inspire Courage as a swift action and Bard and Crusader levels stack for the purpose of inspire courage.

And darn, but oh well, can't be helped.


I recommend Warblade over Crusader, feats: Dragonfire Inspiration, Song of the Heart, Snowflake Wardance (a must for melee bards), words of creation, practiced spellcaster if you are planning on taking more than a few levels of warblade.

Reason being?

And where can I find each of those?

[Jude_H]

Most of IC's boosts come from feats and items. You don't need to hold too tightly to your Bard/Crusader level to use it effectively.

Bard 7/Crusader 2/Jade Phoenix Mage 1/Sublime Chord 1/JPM 9 gets level 9 spells, maneuvers up to level 7 (8 with the Heroics spell), and can pretty easily scrounge an IC bonus of +7 (before/without Words of Creation).

Edit:
Managing an Inspire Courage-focused Bard's swift actions is a massive headache. Warblade recovery makes it worse. I'd definitely recommend Crusader.

[dextercorvia]

Dragonfire Inspiration -- Dragon Magic
Snowflake Wardance -- Frostburn
Words of Creation -- Book of Exalted Deeds
Song of the Heart -- Ebberon Campaign setting

If you look in the We Can Build it thread, Schneeky has suggested several versions of a Bard/Warblade or Bard/Crusader build.

[ExemplarofAvg]

Most of IC's boosts come from feats and items. You don't need to hold too tightly to your Bard/Crusader level to use it effectively.

Bard 7/Crusader 2/Jade Phoenix Mage 1/Sublime Chord 1/JPM 9 gets level 9 spells, maneuvers up to level 7 (8 with the Heroics spell), and can pretty easily scrounge an IC bonus of +7 (before/without Words of Creation).

Edit:
Managing an Inspire Courage-focused Bard's swift actions is a massive headache. Warblade recovery makes it worse. I'd definitely recommend Crusader.

What items?
Hmm, any idea on the breakdown of that, and what a level 10 version would be like? Agreed.


Dragonfire Inspiration -- Dragon Magic
Snowflake Wardance -- Frostburn
Words of Creation -- Book of Exalted Deeds
Song of the Heart -- Ebberon Campaign setting

If you look in the We Can Build it thread, Schneeky has suggested several versions of a Bard/Warblade or Bard/Crusader build.

Thank You :D

[Jude_H]

What items?
Hmm, any idea on the breakdown of that, and what a level 10 version would be like? Agreed.

Inspire Courage is basically broken down here (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9830.0).
The big items are Vest of Legends from DMG2 (+5 bard levels) and Badge of Valor (+1 IC 3/day) from MIC (part of the Regalia of the Hero item set). There are a bunch of masterwork instruments in Complete Adventurer and Song & Silence that also give small boosts.

A melee Bard is also going to get a lot of mileage from the Sudden Stunning weapon enhancement, which is in the DMG2 at a ludicrously low price.
Harmonizing weapons from MIC are also often useful.

Edit:
It looks like DM's updated his Bard's handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8284.0), so it could be useful these days.

A level 10 version of the JPM thing could look like:

Race:
Silverbrow Human (Dragon Magic)

Classes:
Bard 4/Crusader 1/Bard 2/Crusader 1/JPM 1/Bard 1 (Bard levels staggered to make SC entry less obnoxious)

Feats:
H: Dragonfire Inspiration
1: Melodic Casting
3: Song of the Heart
6: Snowflake Wardance
9: Song of the White Raven

Meaningful Equipment:
+1 Sudden Stunning Longsword (43XXg), Badge of Valor (1400g), Masterwork Horn

Level 3 spells*, level 3 maneuvers, 7 Bardic Music uses/day, Inspire Courage +6, Dragonfire Inspiration +6d6.

*This is actually going to be the low point of the build. At ECL 11, it jumps to level 5 spells from a wider list.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

My question to you: What is it you want to do with your melee bard? Bard/Crusader and Bard/Warblade both have their merits, depending on what you are attempting to accomplish with your character.

The JPM build, as presented, is solid. So is the War Chanter build who boosts up the whole party with Song of Legion so even the 'clothies' end up with a BAB of +19. But they both do different things for different reasons.

So, what do you want him to do? Do you want him to provide support primarily through bardic music? Do you want to provide support through maneuvers and spells?

[ExemplarofAvg]

My question to you: What is it you want to do with your melee bard? Bard/Crusader and Bard/Warblade both have their merits, depending on what you are attempting to accomplish with your character.

The JPM build, as presented, is solid. So is the War Chanter build who boosts up the whole party with Song of Legion so even the 'clothies' end up with a BAB of +19. But they both do different things for different reasons.

So, what do you want him to do? Do you want him to provide support primarily through bardic music? Do you want to provide support through maneuvers and spells?

He's aimed to be primarily a support character, help through Bardic Music (through all of those crazy methods) to boost melee while still being able to help out in combat as well. And the Disciplines that the Crusader has fits the in nicely, and the DM has some sort of obsession with Warblades and I don't wish to be involved in that.

Main concept so far is he's crusading to keep the music in the world from dying, in our campaign we haven't run across bards nor has anyone played one, so I'm making a bit of a gaff out of that saying that the music is dying, (insert Chevy and Levy where appropriate)

[ShneekeyTheLost]

He's aimed to be primarily a support character, help through Bardic Music (through all of those crazy methods) to boost melee while still being able to help out in combat as well. And the Disciplines that the Crusader has fits the in nicely, and the DM has some sort of obsession with Warblades and I don't wish to be involved in that.

Main concept so far is he's crusading to keep the music in the world from dying, in our campaign we haven't run across bards nor has anyone played one, so I'm making a bit of a gaff out of that saying that the music is dying, (insert Chevy and Levy where appropriate)

Then Bard/Crusader/War Chanter is entirely appropriate...

For those about to Rock... we salute you.

[dextercorvia]

<snip>BAB of +19<snip>

I could be misremembering, but I thought it got up to +20, Doesn't Inspire Legion have the clause that it sets everyone's BAB to the highest available or the Bard's HD?

[Optimator]

It's not as good, but going more Bard-heavy with the levels would net you other bardic musics and more support spells. Perhaps something like Bard 5 or 6 / Warblade or Crusader 4 / Bard X. If support is the role, this may work.

[dextercorvia]

I could be misremembering, but I thought it got up to +20, Doesn't Inspire Legion have the clause that it sets everyone's BAB to the highest available or the Bard's HD?

I was just able to look it up, and it is the best of the BAB's or the Warchanter's character level -- I was close with HD.

[Coidzor]

Isn't White Raven Tactics midlevelish and the creme de la creme for support maneuvers?

edit: For that matter, what maneuvers does a bardsader or bardblade want?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I could be misremembering, but I thought it got up to +20, Doesn't Inspire Legion have the clause that it sets everyone's BAB to the highest available or the Bard's HD?

The Bard, as a Bard4/Crusader6/War CHanter 10 has a BAB of +19. Thus, even if everyone else in the entire party has 0 BAB, everyone STILL has at a MINIMUM of +19 at level 20. The last point of BAB is really icing on the cake if you do have a full BAB character somewhere in the party.

[Hiro Protagonest]

The Bard, as a Bard4/Crusader6/War CHanter 10 has a BAB of +19. Thus, even if everyone else in the entire party has 0 BAB, everyone STILL has at a MINIMUM of +19 at level 20. The last point of BAB is really icing on the cake if you do have a full BAB character somewhere in the party.

It's either highest BAB or the war chanter's character level. So even if it had +19 BAB, it still gives +20 at 20th level.

Of course, it's awesome when you can give commoners the BAB of a 20th level fighter, it's also amusing that the 20th level fighter gains nothing. :smallamused:

[MeeposFire]

It's either highest BAB or the war chanter's character level. So even if it had +19 BAB, it still gives +20 at 20th level.

Of course, it's awesome when you can give commoners the BAB of a 20th level fighter, it's also amusing that the 20th level fighter gains nothing. :smallamused:

Well he does get a tiny boost to damage...

[ShneekeyTheLost]

It's either highest BAB or the war chanter's character level. So even if it had +19 BAB, it still gives +20 at 20th level.

Of course, it's awesome when you can give commoners the BAB of a 20th level fighter, it's also amusing that the 20th level fighter gains nothing. :smallamused:

You know, I never saw that before... very interesting.

This has potential for shenanigans, post-epic, as everyone's BAB advances at 1/2, but Song of Legion still gives everyone BAB = Character Level of the War Chanter... giving everyone a far more rapid advancement of BAB than they would normally have

[Dusk Eclipse]

Hmm it's a shame Inspire Legion is the capstone, otherwise it would be quite abusable on a gishy Sublime Chord build

[Hiro Protagonest]

You know, I never saw that before... very interesting.

This has potential for shenanigans, post-epic, as everyone's BAB advances at 1/2, but Song of Legion still gives everyone BAB = Character Level of the War Chanter... giving everyone a far more rapid advancement of BAB than they would normally have

You also have the ability to have two musics going at once. Optimize the hell out of inspire courage and play them both at the same time. Though I'm wondering how you get +10 attack +10d6 damage (or whatever it is), since dragonfire inspiration takes out the attack bonus and the only thing I know to increase the bonus is song of the heart.

[Dusk Eclipse]

You also have the ability to have two musics going at once. Optimize the hell out of inspire courage and play them both at the same time. Though I'm wondering how you get +10 attack +10d6 damage (or whatever it is), since dragonfire inspiration takes out the attack bonus and the only thing I know to increase the bonus is song of the heart.

IIRC a bard song last for 5 rounds after the bard in question stops performing, so one could start normal Inspire Courage and on the next round start with Dragonfire inspiration.

[tyckspoon]

You also have the ability to have two musics going at once. Optimize the hell out of inspire courage and play them both at the same time. Though I'm wondering how you get +10 attack +10d6 damage (or whatever it is), since dragonfire inspiration takes out the attack bonus and the only thing I know to increase the bonus is song of the heart.

Usually involves Words of Creation, an Exalted feat that doubles your Inspire Courage bonus (and some other stuff that nobody much cares about.) There's some vagueness about when exactly that doubling is applied, but even the most conservative take of doubling only your base IC value easily gets you to +12 on a full level 20 build- 4 for Bard/effective Bard levels, + 1 Song of the Heart, doubled to 10 for Words of Creation, +1 Inspirational Boost + 1 Badge of Valor. If you can't/don't want to use Words of Creation, I don't think you can break double digits.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

You also have the ability to have two musics going at once. Optimize the hell out of inspire courage and play them both at the same time. Though I'm wondering how you get +10 attack +10d6 damage (or whatever it is), since dragonfire inspiration takes out the attack bonus and the only thing I know to increase the bonus is song of the heart.

What would happen is you would get +10 to-hit and damage and +10d6 [element] damage from Dragonfire Inspiration. Use the aforementioned feats plus an item from the MiC whose name escapes me and Inspirational Boost to boost your Inspire Courage to the maximum (I want to say, depending on reading of Words of Creation, +10 to +14, maybe more pre-epic).

Spells should be small things - Inspirational Boost is a must, but things like Grease and other handy CC stuff also work. Maneuvers are up to save one: White Raven Tactics is a must have. No questions asked. Depending on how many beefy fighter types you have, you may also want some of the White Raven charging maneuvers - otherwise spread them out.

[Saintheart]

Meaningful Equipment:
+1 Sudden Stunning Longsword (43XXg), Badge of Valor (1400g), Masterwork Horn

Crystal Echoblade (MIC, ~4,000 gp) with the Sudden Stunning (+2,000 gp) and Harmonising (+1 ?) enchantments attached to it is a little better than straight longsword. Also, if you've got the cash for it, Slippers of Battledancing at 30K are just awesome.

[Saintheart]

IIRC a bard song last for 5 rounds after the bard in question stops performing, so one could start normal Inspire Courage and on the next round start with Dragonfire inspiration.

Not if you have a harmonising weapon. The weapon picks up your IC and continues it for 10 rounds, thus a total of 15 rounds to a character.

[Person_Man]

I'm of the opinion that Bards should actually avoiding using Dragonfire Inspiration and Snowflake Wardance unless it's a boss fight. If you use them in every encounter, then your DM just ends up making every encounter that much more difficult. But if you impose a limit on yourself and ration your Music use, then it's that much more spectacular when you use it. This strategy also has the added benefit of using fewer Bard levels.

You might also want to look at Combat Panache (PHBII). It offers several maneuvers, but the main one is that you can make an Intimidate check (Move Action) to impose your Cha bonus as a penalty to hit against one enemy until the end of the encounter. If you're going to be a Cha based melee build, it's great for boss fights.

Also, what ECL are you starting at, and how hight do you think the game will go? Multiclass builds like this one are notoriously difficult at low levels (ie, you're using 1st/2nd level maneuvers when your allies are using 3rd/4th level spells). And PrC like the Warchanter tend to lose their steam after ECL 16ish.

[dextercorvia]

You know, I never saw that before... very interesting.

This has potential for shenanigans, post-epic, as everyone's BAB advances at 1/2, but Song of Legion still gives everyone BAB = Character Level of the War Chanter... giving everyone a far more rapid advancement of BAB than they would normally have

Slight correction again. At epic levels you gain EAB which explicitly stacks with BAB. So, a Bard10/SublimeChord10/Warchanter10 grants everyone BAB +30 which will stack with their +5 EAB (assuming equal level).

[Essence_of_War]

I'm of the opinion that Bards should actually avoiding using Dragonfire Inspiration and Snowflake Wardance unless it's a boss fight. If you use them in every encounter, then your DM just ends up making every encounter that much more difficult. But if you impose a limit on yourself and ration your Music use, then it's that much more spectacular when you use it. This strategy also has the added benefit of using fewer Bard levels.


This is really good advice.

It is very broadly applicable to melee/buffs of all types. If you can (or can buff someone else into doing) 8bajillion dmage with every hit, you'll probably just end up fighting monsters that have 8bajillion*(3-10) hp.