Need a helping hand for a character.

[Isaac Malus]

Hi! This is my first post so I apologize if there is a certain etiquette I happen to be missing. I am fairly new to tabletops, the main one I play being D&D 3.5.. I have, however, found myself hooked on role playing table tops. Most of my friends who have started to DM have been making campaigns that follow a rather specific plot however, it tends to be, "World in chaos you and these guys are all we got to save us." This chain is about to be broken however with a game my friend is setting up for.

Here is where the Questions starts:

1.What kind of experiences have any of you had with Evil campaigns? How can I get into a character who is evil? Any advice on how to really scare my DM somewhat?

2. I want to be a brute this time around, I have played a healing class, I have played knight, I have played an arcane spell caster.. What kind of advice could you give for this? Thus far I'm thinking Frost Giant War Hulk.. Which now brings me to the last question.

3. How the heck do I make a frost Giant? :smalleek: I have looked at the Monster Manual and they are level adjustment +4 however it's the stats, saves and what not I am confused about, Where can I find those? Is there a way to break it down from the book?

Sorry If this post bothers you, I'm just new to the scene and with all there is I feel really lost.

[evil-frosty]

Savage Species might have a monster class for frost giant but i am not a hundred percent sure on that one. As for your first question being descriptive if your torturing someone might scare him it really depends on what kind of person the DM is.

[The Rabbler]

1. I find the easiest way to play any character is to decide on the personality quirks. When I make an evil character, they're evil simply because their view of what's right happens to be what just about everyone else in the known multiverse deems wrong.

I played a character who was evil because he refused to kill any creature he came across; instead, he preferred to throw them into his favorite bag of holding with all of his torture equipment and a wand of heroics to give them diehard. I've also played a character who was evil because he felt the need to punish any and all who offended his extremely strict moral code. This sometimes meant that the bartender needed to die for pouring less than the average amount of wine into his glass (he brought the glass with him).

What makes characters interesting is the details. Come up with a persona and when playing that character, take on that persona. Make decisions as your character would make them. If you do it right, it shouldn't require a whole lot of thought, though it can take a bit of practice.

2. There are plenty of ways to do "brute". One is hulking hurler, the class that does millions of points of damage with a few (read: at least 50) templates, another is the charger, which can only do thousands of damage, but is much less restricted in race/class/ammo. A third way to do this is through divine magic; druids and clerics make great brutes, as they easily surpass the fighter by around levels 7-9. The cleric does this with a couple of day-long buffs and the druid does this through wild shape. What makes the cleric/druid option awesome is that you're a brute with full spellcasting. Full tier-1 spellcasting.

3. I wouldn't recommend playing a monster as your race, as they tend to come with some huge drawbacks, ie: huge racial hit dice and lots of level adjustment. To play a frost giant straight from the book, you'd be looking at 14 RHD and +4 level adjustment, putting you at ECL 18 before taking your first class level. Humans, Goliaths, Dwarves, and (Water) Orcs make great brutes.

[Xtomjames]

Well you could go with an inherently evil class. A Paladin of an evil god for example or cleric of an evil god. Reading a god's description can explain in detail the type of character your character would be if he worshiped that god. Other inherently evil classes would be a Dread Necromancer, arguably the Warlock, an Anti-Paladin. If you're wanting to play a particularly nasty class depending on level of course, I'd say, rogue assassin. Or a Rogue Infiltrator.

Read the section on the Anti Hero in Champions of Darkness. See if your DM will allow you to play a low CR/Level Adjustment Demon or a Vampire.

Being evil its self is dependent on the type of evil. Neutral Evil is the sort of scrupulous selfish character and is very close to Chaotic Neutral. Lawful Neutral is the has his own set of ethics or moral understanding character. The Chaotic Evil alignment is both the hardest and most fun to play however, mainly because your character is truly chaotic. The things you do are meant to be unpredictable, in a sense its the Trouble Child alignment. One minute you can be coy almost child like, the next you could be chopping a guy's nuts off with a pair of scissors, and all because you wanted to.

Look at the Book of Vile Darkness if you have it or can find it. If you want to know how to play evil that would be the book to start with.

[Isaac Malus]

"you'd be looking at 14 RHD and +4 level adjustment, putting you at ECL 18"

What? :smalleek:

Thanks for the answers and advice all! Still looking for more info :smallbiggrin:

Unfortunately it's humanoid monsters, I've seen the War Hulk which has looked great to me, as well as Barbarian -> Frenzied berserker or Rune scarred barbarian, no humans. War Hulk needs to be large or larger. :smallsigh:

[vampire2948]

There was a project making monster classes... *looks to see if there was a Frost Giant one*

Frost Giant (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8591700&postcount=510)


Depends how open your DM is to Homebrew, ofc. The stuff that was approved by that project is more or less balanced, usually.

Vampire,

[tyckspoon]

"you'd be looking at 14 RHD and +4 level adjustment, putting you at ECL 18"

What? :smalleek:


To make a monster character, you take the normal statblock as your starting point. That includes all of their normal monster hit dice, otherwise known as Racial Hit Dice. Each RHD is effectively a level. Then *on top* of that you get the LA, which is supposed to represent those aspects of the monster that are more useful as a PC than they are as a fight encounter (the Teleport/Greater Teleport at will a lot of the angels/demons/devils have is probably the best example.) So.. yeah. A Frost Giant is a level 18 character, by the book. It's one of those things you really have to talk over with your DM and get some changes approved if you want to make a practical go of it.

If you want to do a brute without getting dinged up too bad on LA..
Goliath Barbarian/War Hulk would be a pretty efficient route. Goliath Barbarians have an ACF that makes them Large when they rage. That'll qualify you for War Hulk, and means you can basically turn on and off the class at will, because you'll only have the benefits of it when Raging. Makes a neat way around the drawback of War Hulk's "No Time To Think", too. Quick 'evil' hook: You enjoy it. Too much. When it's time to fight, you let go of normal thought, hulk the heck out, and just revel in the bloodspatter. Maybe go into Frenzied Berserker after if you get enough levels.

[Kuma Kode]

Welcome to the Playground. Hopefully you enjoy your time here and become a regular. :smallsmile:

How you play an evil campaign seriously depends on how mature the players are about it. If you've got players playing chaotic stupid psychopaths in a typical "good" campaign, it will likely implode into a player vs. player murderfest before too long. If that's what you all want, that's fine, but be aware that it's frequently misinterpreted as a license to backstab.

If the group actually wants to explore and roleplay evil, you need to decide how far you'll go and any boundaries. Do you play over-the-top comedic evil complete with puppy kicking? Do you explore the messed up psyche of a band of misfits? How detailed do you get with their evil scenes?

Graphic violence, rape, demon worshiping, and various other acts typical of evil characters can be very difficult to roleplay well. If one of your players has had a traumatic sexual experience, for instance, you're far more likely to accidentally run aground of that while playing evil characters than you are good ones.

I suggest talking with the group as a whole and situating everyone with how you want it to go, how deep you want to go, and where you should completely avoid. Most importantly, you need to respect each other's boundaries.

I say this because I've had a rape scene in one of my games exactly twice. One time went well, the other did not (both times the victim was an NPC and the perpetrators were likewise NPC villains). The one that went well was a group that was comfortable with each other and they roleplayed it well. A few of the players nearly choked up with tears for the fictional girl. All in all it was a very raw, emotional scene and everyone ultimately enjoyed it for what it was. The one that went wrong was because, unknown to me, one of my players had been raped. The scene was in no way a support or fantasy about it, but I hadn't checked and I deeply disturbed one of my friends. I felt disgusted with myself and the campaign pretty much ended that night.

So when you're going to be playing characters who do terrible things, make sure everyone's on the same page.

EDIT: Board went retarded and double-posted.

[marcielle]

Managed to scare a DM by walking up to an enemy who was bleeding out and mutilating his body while he was technically alive and concious.

[Xtomjames]

I thought of another potential hard hitter for you for an evil class that I think You and most others will have over looked. An Evil Monk. Monks don't have to be good, just Lawful in their alignment. Being a lawful evil monk with a monster class like Ice Giant could give you huge benefits.

I'll Gen a character and post it for you to look at it as a suggestion.

[Xtomjames]

Mighty
Male Half-Fiend Minotaur Outsider 6 / Overwhelming Attack Monk 8
Lawful Evil


Strength 25 (+7)
Dexterity 19 (+4)
Constitution 25 (+7)
Intelligence 18 (+4)
Wisdom 18 (+4)
Charisma 18 (+4)
Size: Medium
Height: ---
Weight: around 700 lb
Skin: Black
Eyes: Red
Hair: Dark Brown Wavy; Average Beard




Total Hit Points: 175

Speed: 50 feet [monk]

Armor Class: 25 = 10 +4 [dexterity] +4 [wisdom] +1 [monk level] +1 [half-fiend] +5 [minotaur]

Touch AC: 19
Flat-footed: 21
Initiative modifier: +10 = +4 [dexterity] +4 [improved initiative] +2 [quick reconnoiter]
Fortitude save: +18 = 11 [base] +7 [constitution]
Reflex save: +15 = 11 [base] +4 [dexterity]
Will save: +15 = 11 [base] +4 [wisdom]
Attack (handheld): +19/+14/+9 = 12 [base] +7 [strength]
Attack (unarmed): +19/+14/+9 = 12 [base] +7 [strength]
Flurry of Blows: +18/+18/+13 [includes strength modifier]
Attack (missile): +16/+11/+6 = 12 [base] +4 [dexterity]
Grapple check: +23/+18/+13 = 12 [base] +7 [strength] +4 [improved grapple]


Light load: 266 lb. or less
Medium load: 267-533 lb.
Heavy load: 534-800 lb.
Lift over head: 800 lb.
Lift off ground: 1600 lb.
Push or drag: 4000 lb.

Languages: Common Draconic Giant Goblin Orc Terran


Unarmed Damage: 1d10 +7 [strength]

Sai [1d4, crit x2, range incr 10 ft., 1 lb., light, bludgeoning]


Feats:

Power Attack [overwhelming attack]
Improved Bull Rush [overwhelming attack]
Improved Overrun [overwhelming attack]
Endurance
Die Hard
Improved Initiative
Improved Unarmed Strike [monk]
Improved Grapple
Quick Reconnoiter

Traits:


Skill Name Key
Ability Skill
Modifier Ability
Modifier Ranks Misc.
Modifier
Appraise Int 4 = +4
Balance Dex* 16 = +4 +10 +2 [tumble]
Bluff Cha 4 = +4
Climb Str* 12 = +7 +5
Concentration Con 12 = +7 +5
Craft_1 Int 4 = +4
Craft_2 Int 4 = +4
Craft_3 Int 4 = +4
Diplomacy Cha 9 = +4 +3 +2 [sense motive]
Disguise Cha 4 = +4
Escape Artist Dex* 5 = +4 +1
Forgery Int 4 = +4
Gather Information Cha 4 = +4
Heal Wis 4 = +4
Hide Dex* 4 = +4
Intimidate Cha 16 = +4 +10 +2 [overwhelming attack]
Jump Str* 27 = +7 +10 +2 [tumble] +8 [speed 50]
Knowledge (arcana) Int 14 = +4 +10
Knowledge (religion) Int 14 = +4 +10
Listen Wis 18 = +4 +10 +4 [minotaur]
Move Silently Dex* 9 = +4 +5
Perform_1 Cha 8 = +4 +4
Perform_2 Cha 4 = +4
Perform_3 Cha 4 = +4
Perform_4 Cha 4 = +4
Perform_5 Cha 4 = +4
Ride Dex 4 = +4
Search Int 13 = +4 +5 +4 [minotaur]
Sense Motive Wis 14 = +4 +10
Spot Wis 18 = +4 +10 +4 [minotaur]
Survival Wis 4 = +4
Swim Str** 7 = +7
Tumble Dex* 16 = +4 +10 +2 [jump]
Use Rope Dex 4 = +4


* = check penalty for wearing armor

Search >=5 ranks gives +2 on survival checks while tracking.


Minotaur:


May charge and gore for 4d6+6 points of damage

Darkvision to 60 feet

Gore for 1d8

May take "scent" as a feature

Never lost, never flat-footed, escape maze in one round

+4 on spot, search, and listen (already included)

Half-Fiend Template:

+4 strength, +4 dexterity, +2 constitution, +4 intelligence, +2 charisma

Outsider (native)

Bat wings allow flying at double the base speed

Darkvision to 60 feet

Spells

Immune to poison

Spell resistance 10+HD (maximum 35)

Damage reduction

Acid, cold, electricity, and fire resistance 10

Claw and bite attacks

+4 effective character level

Overwhelming Attack Monk:

Need Intimidate, Perform (dance)

AC Bonus for Wisdom

AC Bonus for level (begins level 5)

Flurry of Blows

Unarmed Strike

+2 on Intimidate

Fast Movement (already included)

Power Attack (bonus feat level 1)

Evasion (level 2)

Improved Bull Rush (bonus feat level 2)

Fast Movement (level 3)

Still Mind level 3)

Ki Strike (level 4)

Slow Fall (level 4)

Purity of Body (level 5)

Improved Overrun (bonus feat level 6)

+4 to bullrush an opponent you just intimidated (level 6)

Wholeness of Body (level 7)

Improved Evasion (level 9)

Diamond Body (level 11)

Quivering Palm (level 15)

Timeless Body (level 17)

Tongue of Sun and Moon (level 17)

Empty Body (level 19)

Perfect Self (level 20)


Class HP rolled
Level 1: Monstrous Humanoid 8
Level 2: Monstrous Humanoid 3
Level 3: Monstrous Humanoid 5
Level 4: Monstrous Humanoid 1 +1 to constitution
Level 5: Monstrous Humanoid 8
Level 6: Monstrous Humanoid 4
Level 7: Monk 2
Level 8: Monk 8 +1 to constitution
Level 9: Monk 8
Level 10: Monk 8
Level 11: Monk 7
Level 12: Monk 2 +1 to constitution
Level 13: Monk 7
Level 14: Monk 6




Mighty's Equipment:


1 lb
_____
1 lb Weapons / Armor / Shield (from above)

[The Rabbler]

~
Giant monk build
~


that is one place where you'd want to use a spoiler.

*ahem* as for the build itself; while not bad, that monk build supplies little utility and a rather meh amount of damage for it's level. A human barbarian 10 should be able to out-damage it pretty easily (and he might have a higher + to hit as well).

To the OP: when you say brute, what is it that you're looking for? Someone who can attack and do piles of damage all day? Something that would look monsterous and feel awesome to play? From both a fluff and crunch standpoint, what is it that you're looking for?

Other suggestions for characters despite my questions:

Feral Half-minotaur Human warblade (or unarmed swordsage)/bloodclaw master would be nice and monster-y.

a dragonborn earth dwarf barbarian 2/warblade 2/fist of the forest 3/deepwarden 2/warblade 1/deepstone sentinel 10 would be an earth-focused dragon-dwarf with both solid damage and some nice adaptability. Throw more templates on top of that until you feel that your character is strange enough.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

In general though, a great resource for building melee brute-type characters is Guide to Being Bane (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=105525) created by the board's very own master of melee: Eldariel.

[Rogue Shadows]

+1.What kind of experiences have any of you had with Evil campaigns? How can I get into a character who is evil? Any advice on how to really scare my DM somewhat?

This is several questions...

a) Poor ones. It takes a...well, I'm hesitant to say strong-handed DM and strong-minded players...it takes a good deal of maturity though. By D&D's definition, anyway, evil characters are perfectly willing to lie, cheat, steal, hurt, and kill others, including their comrades, unless some overriding factor gets in the way, like, I dunno, love or something. Even that can be overridden.

b) Depends on what you mean by evil. Personally I like to ham up my villainy, taking inspiration from Bison (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8u7px_GzWQ), Khan (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRnSnfiUI54), Ladd Russo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNoITwTJiEM), and so on.

c) Scare him how? With your villainy? Or with your character's abilities?


2. I want to be a brute this time around, I have played a healing class, I have played knight, I have played an arcane spell caster.. What kind of advice could you give for this? Thus far I'm thinking Frost Giant War Hulk.. Which now brings me to the last question.

Ooh, frost giant. I like that, that sounds fun.


3. How the heck do I make a frost Giant? :smalleek: I have looked at the Monster Manual and they are level adjustment +4 however it's the stats, saves and what not I am confused about, Where can I find those? Is there a way to break it down from the book?

Hang on, let me give this a whirl. I've never done this before, but here goes...

FROST GIANT RACIAL TRAITS
- Giant type, not humanoid type. This means that spells and abilities that specifically only work on humanoids, such as charm person, do not work on a frost giant.
- (Cold) subtype. This make the Frost giant immune to cold, but he takes double damage from fire.
- +18 Strength, -2 Dexterity, +10 Constitution, +2 Wisdom
- Large size
- Base speed 40 feet (8 squares)
- +9 natural bonus to armor class
- Low-light vision (ex)
- Rock throwing (ex): as the MM says
- A Frost giant starts with 14 HD in the Giant type. This gives them the following traits: d8 hit die, BAB +10/+5; Fort +9, Ref +4, Will +4; Skill points equal to 2 + Intelligence modifier (x4 at 1st level), Class skills for the Frost giant are Climb, Craft, Intimidate, Jump, and Spot. Finally, 5 feats for which they otherwise meet the prerequisites. Monster types become a lot easier to understand when you realize that they're exactly the same as classes for the most part. A Frost giant, in other words, essentially starts as a 14th level character, at least for the purposes of creating that character.
- Automatically proficient with the great axe and with light armor and with shields
- LA +4
- No favored class is listed for Frost Giants. I would default to either Fighter or Barbarian.

According to the DMG, a Frost giant with absolutely no levels in any class, is already equal to a 18th level character in terms of abilities. This...is probably not accurate (it's probably lower), but it's what the DMG says.

Remember, this is my first time doing the above, so I might have made a mistake here or there; having said that, as near as I can tell that is exactly the racial traits for a Frost Giant according to the MM and the DMG's rules for extrapolating them.

[Xtomjames]

Okay, 1: a Frost Giant isn't in the DMG its in the MM. page 122. 2: it has a level adjustment of +4, which means that his ECL is 18 (barring the fact that the ECL system in D&D 3.5 is completely whacky).

The build I supplied was an example, and I think you're forgetting the monk's flurry of blows. With the high bonus it has to hit it will normally not miss, and that's 1d10*3. This Minotaur Monk build versus any Barbarian would win.

[Rogue Shadows]

Okay, 1: a Frost Giant isn't in the DMG its in the MM. page 122. 2: it has a level adjustment of +4, which means that his ECL is 18 (barring the fact that the ECL system in D&D 3.5 is completely whacky).

Was that a responce to me or to someone else? I can't tell.

[Xtomjames]

Overall response to the two posts following my example character.

[Rogue Shadows]

Overall response to the two posts following my example character.

Ah.

Hey, by the way, as long as you're hanging around - did I do the Frost giant racial traits right?

(By the way, I know that the Frost giant isn't in the DMG but the MM...but the rules for extrapolating its racial traits are in the DMG)

[tyckspoon]

According to the DMG, a Frost giant with absolutely no levels in any class, is already equal to a 18th level character in terms of abilities. This...is probably not accurate (it's probably lower), but it's what the DMG says.

Remember, this is my first time doing the above, so I might have made a mistake here or there; having said that, as near as I can tell that is exactly the racial traits for a Frost Giant according to the MM and the DMG's rules for extrapolating them.

Looks like you did it right to me. And yeah, they're officially ECL 18. The LA/ECL system doesn't work very well for very high RHD/LA numbers- it should be fairly obvious that a Frost Giant does not have the same power as 18 levels in any half-way decent PC class- but that's what the rules say. If you reaaallly want to play something like a Frost Giant the boards typically recommend hashing out the details with your GM to acquire something more playable.

[Rogue Shadows]

Looks like you did it right to me. And yeah, they're officially ECL 18. The LA/ECL system doesn't work very well for very high RHD/LA numbers- it should be fairly obvious that a Frost Giant does not have the same power as 18 levels in any half-way decent PC class- but that's what the rules say. If you reaaallly want to play something like a Frost Giant the boards typically recommend hashing out the details with your GM to acquire something more playable.

Hooray! I have succeeded on a Knowledge (Games) check! This got me some experience. I'm nearly ready for my next level. (http://www.xuenay.net/geek.html)

[Xtomjames]

Here is Mighty vII as a Barbarian rather than monk. You should note the lower HP (the monk has lower HP but he's also two levels behind. If I'd made this character the same level his HP would be lower than the monks), the lower AC, over all lower damage and the higher level....

While comparatively speaking the monk at level 14 has fewer over all attacks per round than this level 16 character and even it's total BAB is a bit lower, skill wise, speed wise, ac wise, saves wise, and over all scores wise the monk is better.

Mighty v II
Male Half-Fiend Minotaur Outsider 6 / Dragon-Totem Barbarian 10
Neutral Evil



Strength 27 (+8)
Dexterity 18 (+4)
Constitution 22 (+6)
Intelligence 11 (+0)
Wisdom 15 (+2)
Charisma 11 (+0)
Size: Medium
Height: ---
Weight: around 700 lb
Skin: Black
Eyes: Red
Hair: Red Wavy; Beardless




Total Hit Points: 199

Speed: 40 feet [barbarian]

Armor Class: 22 = 10 +2 [heavy steel] +4 [dexterity] +1 [half-fiend] +5 [minotaur]

Touch AC: 14
Flat-footed: 22 [uncanny dodge]
Initiative modifier: +8 = +4 [dexterity] +4 [improved initiative]
Fortitude save: +18 = 12 [base] +6 [constitution]
Reflex save: +12 = 8 [base] +4 [dexterity]
Will save: +10 = 8 [base] +2 [wisdom]
Attack (handheld): +24/+19/+14/+9 = 16 [base] +8 [strength]
Attack (unarmed): +24/+19/+14/+9 = 16 [base] +8 [strength]
Attack (missile): +20/+15/+10/+5 = 16 [base] +4 [dexterity]
Grapple check: +24/+19/+14/+9 = 16 [base] +8 [strength]


Light load:
Medium load:
Heavy load:
Lift over head:
Lift off ground:
Push or drag:
346 lb. or less
347-693 lb.
694-1040 lb.
1040 lb.
2080 lb.
5200 lb.




Languages: Common Giant


Greataxe [1d12, crit x3, 12 lb, two-handed, slashing]

Greatsword [2d6, crit 18-20/x2, 8 lb., two-handed, slashing]

Heavy Steel Shield [+2 AC; check penalty -1; hardness 10; hp 20; 15 lb.]


Feats:

Endurance
Improved Critical x1 Weapon(s): Great Sword
Improved Initiative
Power Attack
Cleave
Great Cleave

Traits:


Skill Name Key
Ability Skill
Modifier Ability
Modifier Ranks Misc.
Modifier
Appraise Int 0 = +0
Balance Dex* 4 = +4
Bluff Cha 0 = +0
Climb Str* 11 = +8 +3
Concentration Con 6 = +6
Craft_1 Int 0 = +0
Craft_2 Int 0 = +0
Craft_3 Int 0 = +0
Diplomacy Cha 0 = +0
Disguise Cha 0 = +0
Escape Artist Dex* 4 = +4
Forgery Int 0 = +0
Gather Information Cha 0 = +0
Handle Animal Cha 5 = +0 +5
Heal Wis 2 = +2
Hide Dex* 4 = +4
Intimidate Cha 10 = +0 +10
Jump Str* 22 = +8 +10 +4 [speed 40]
Listen Wis 14 = +2 +8 +4 [minotaur]
Move Silently Dex* 4 = +4
Perform_1 Cha 0 = +0
Perform_2 Cha 0 = +0
Perform_3 Cha 0 = +0
Perform_4 Cha 0 = +0
Perform_5 Cha 0 = +0
Ride Dex 6 = +4 +2 [handle animal]
Search Int 4 = +0 +4 [minotaur]
Sense Motive Wis 2 = +2
Spot Wis 16 = +2 +10 +4 [minotaur]
Survival Wis 7 = +2 +5
Swim Str** 13 = +8 +5
Use Rope Dex 4 = +4


* = check penalty for wearing armor


Minotaur:


May charge and gore for 4d6+6 points of damage

Darkvision to 60 feet

Gore for 1d8

May take "scent" as a feature

Never lost, never flat-footed, escape maze in one round

+4 on spot, search, and listen (already included)

Half-Fiend Template:

+4 strength, +4 dexterity, +2 constitution, +4 intelligence, +2 charisma

Outsider (native)

Bat wings allow flying at double the base speed

Darkvision to 60 feet

Spells

Immune to poison

Spell resistance 10+HD (maximum 35)

Damage reduction

Acid, cold, electricity, and fire resistance 10

Claw and bite attacks

+4 effective character level

Barbarian:

Illiteracy (2 skill points to learn to read)

Rage

Fast Movement (already included)

Uncanny Dodge (level 2)

Trap Sense (level 3)

Improved Uncanny Dodge (level 5)

Damage Reduction 1/- (level 7)

Damage Reduction 2/- (level 10)

Greater Rage (level 11)

Damage Reduction 3/- (level 13)

Indominitable Will (level 14)

Damage Reduction 4/- (level 16)

Tireless Rage (level 17)

Damage Reduction 5/- (level 19)

Mighty Rage (level 20)


Class HP rolled
Level 1: Monstrous Humanoid 8
Level 2: Monstrous Humanoid 5
Level 3: Monstrous Humanoid 5
Level 4: Monstrous Humanoid 5 +1 to constitution
Level 5: Monstrous Humanoid 5
Level 6: Monstrous Humanoid 5
Level 7: Barbarian 7
Level 8: Barbarian 7 +1 to constitution
Level 9: Barbarian 7
Level 10: Barbarian 7
Level 11: Barbarian 7
Level 12: Barbarian 7 +1 to constitution
Level 13: Barbarian 7
Level 14: Barbarian 7
Level 15: Barbarian 7
Level 16: Barbarian 7 +1 to constitution




Mighty v II's Equipment:


35 lb
_____
35 lb Weapons / Armor / Shield (from above)

Total





More about Mighty v II:

[Xtomjames]

Though if you want something that will have ubber impact check this out

Warg

Genderless Warforged Fighter 11 / Warforged Juggernaut 5
Neutral Evil



Strength 21 (+5)
Dexterity 18 (+4)
Constitution 17 (+3)
Intelligence 18 (+4)
Wisdom 15 (+2)
Charisma 13 (+1)
Size: Medium
Height: 6' 10"
Weight: 310 lb
Skin: Silvery
Eyes:
Hair: None




Total Hit Points: 164

Speed: 20 feet [adamantine]

Armor Class: 19 = 10 +1 [dexterity in armor] +8 [adamantine plating]

Touch AC: 11
Flat-footed: 18
Initiative modifier: +11 = +4 [dexterity] +4 [improved initiative] +3 [warforged fighter option]
Fortitude save: +14 = 11 [base] +3 [constitution]
Reflex save: +8 = 4 [base] +4 [dexterity]
Will save: +6 = 4 [base] +2 [wisdom]
Attack (handheld): +19/+14/+9 = 14 [base] +5 [strength]
Attack (unarmed): +19/+14/+9 = 14 [base] +5 [strength]
Attack (missile): +18/+13/+8 = 14 [base] +4 [dexterity]
Grapple check: +19/+14/+9 = 14 [base] +5 [strength]


Light load:
Medium load:
Heavy load:
Lift over head:
Lift off ground:
Push or drag:
153 lb. or less
154-306 lb.
307-460 lb.
460 lb.
920 lb.
2300 lb.



Region of Origin: Mournland

Languages: Common Draconic Elven Sylvan Daelkyr


Falchion [2d4, crit 18-20/x2, 8 lb, two-handed, slashing]

Greatsword [2d6, crit 19-20/x2, 8 lb., two-handed, slashing]

Composite Longbow [1d8, crit x3, range incr. 100 ft., 3 lb, piercing]


Feats:

Adamantine Body
Improved Damage Reduction x1
Improved Fortification
Combat Reflexes
Improved Critical x1 Weapon(s):
Improved Initiative
Power Attack
Cleave
Great Cleave
Improved Bull Rush

Traits:


Action Points: 13 (this level)
Skill Name Key
Ability Skill
Modifier Ability
Modifier Ranks Misc.
Modifier
Appraise Int 4 = +4
Balance Dex* 4 = +4
Bluff Cha 1 = +1
Climb Str* 15 = +5 +10
Concentration Con 3 = +3
Craft_1 Int 4 = +4
Craft_2 Int 4 = +4
Craft_3 Int 4 = +4
Diplomacy Cha 1 = +1
Disguise Cha 1 = +1
Escape Artist Dex* 4 = +4
Forgery Int 4 = +4
Gather Information Cha 1 = +1
Handle Animal Cha 12 = +1 +11
Heal Wis 2 = +2
Hide Dex* 4 = +4
Intimidate Cha 11 = +1 +10
Jump Str* 18 = +5 +19 -6 [speed 20]
Knowledge (arcana) Int 9 = +4 +5
Listen Wis 11 = +2 +9
Move Silently Dex* 4 = +4
Perform_1 Cha 1 = +1
Perform_2 Cha 1 = +1
Perform_3 Cha 1 = +1
Perform_4 Cha 1 = +1
Perform_5 Cha 1 = +1
Ride Dex 6 = +4 +2 [handle animal]
Search Int 6 = +4 +2
Sense Motive Wis 4 = +2 +2
Spot Wis 11 = +2 +9
Survival Wis 7 = +2 +5
Swim Str** 10 = +5 +5
Use Rope Dex 4 = +4


* = check penalty for wearing armor



Warforged fighter racial substitution levels give d12 hit dice (included), plus intimidate as a class skill.


Warforged fighter racial substitution level 1 gives +3 on initiative (included) and +3 on saves vs fear. The cost is the normal fighter's first-level bonus feat.


Warforged fighter racial substitution level 2 gives an extra warforged bonus feat. The cost is the fighter feat.


Warforged fighter racial substitution level 4 gives +2 on damage from the body slam and from any attched weapon. The cost is the normal figher's fifth-level feat.

Warforged


+2 constitution, -2 wisdom, -2 charisma (already included)

Composite plating makes armor unusable, 5% arcane spell failure

Cannot heal damage naturally

Does not eat, sleep, breathe

25% chance to avoid criticals and sneaks

-1 to -9 hp, inert but not progressing to death

Immune to poison, sleep, energy drain, disease, nausea, paralysis, fatigue, exhaustion

Slam for 1d4 bludgeoning

Adamantine body gives -5 armor penalty on certain skill checks.

Fighter

Bonus Feats (already included)

Warforged Juggernaut


Armor spikes 1d6; Expert Bull Rush; Powerful Charge; Reserved (level 1)

Charge bonus +1, construct perfection I, extended charge (level 2)

Construct perfection II, healing immunity, Superior Bull Rush (level 3)

Armor spikes 1d8; bonus on charge +2; construct perfection III (level 4)

Construct perfection IV; Greater Powerful Charge (level 5)



Class HP rolled
Level 1: Fighter 12
Level 2: Fighter 4
Level 3: Fighter 10
Level 4: Fighter 10 +1 to strength
Level 5: Fighter 10
Level 6: Fighter 1
Level 7: Fighter 7
Level 8: Fighter 9 +1 to strength
Level 9: Fighter 9
Level 10: Fighter 8
Level 11: Fighter 3
Level 12: Warforged Juggernaut 10 +1 to strength
Level 13: Warforged Juggernaut 12
Level 14: Warforged Juggernaut 3
Level 15: Warforged Juggernaut 1
Level 16: Warforged Juggernaut 7 +1 to constitution




Warg's Equipment:


19 lb
3 lb
_____
22 lb Weapons / Armor / Shield (from above)
Arrows (quiver of 20) x1

Total



Also...


Bag of Holding type II


More about Warg:

[ClothedInVelvet]

I would suggest limiting your evil character somehow to make him compatible with an otherwise good party. If you've seen Buffy the Vampire Slayer (TV Show), there's a vampire who loses his ability to hurt people (he can still hurt other undead). It makes him a sissy, but a much better character, and he's able to help the good guys.

Another way to do it, and how I've done it, is have my evil character be dependent on a LG character for life. If the LG player died, or simply wished it, my character would die. So he had to behave... somewhat. But the LG character also couldn't kill him arbitrarily.

[Temet Nosce]

Xtom, I glanced over your Barbarian, but I'm unsure if you're joking with the OP or not, regardless you appear to have miscalculated the LA (should be 4 for half fiend and 2 more for Minotaur unless I recall wrong), and both of those are absolutely horrible investments. In addition your feat choice while not completely atrocious, is not even looking in the direction of optimal.

@OP:

1a. I have a great deal of fondness for evil campaigns, and I've run them in ways ranging from mildly absurd carnage to serious look at a breakdown of morality. One thing to note about them, is that as a rule they require at least a somewhat more involved player.

1b. The best advice I can give you in relation evil characters is to recall that you will to some extent be expected to put more effort into character motivation since evil characters tend to have their own goals. The goal itself doesn't even necessarily have to be evil, but think through your "why".

1c. Good description. Admittedly, starting with a sickening base (necrophilia, rape, pedophilia, sadomasochism, etc) can help, but even just describing normal combat can be made disquieting with sufficient care and detail (hint: remember, when you cut open someones stomach the stuff inside spills out, also recall you have multiple senses). Alternatively, describing highly inhumane but effective courses of action (racial cleansing and the like) can also be effective in unnerving people.

2. A quick glance over the thread shows someone already touched on it briefly, but look into Half-Minotaur. Mechanically speaking, it provides the kind of thing you're looking for and is mind numbingly powerful. Remember to calculate the effects of the size increase.

3. Someone already posted the stats, but from what I recall you can get monster stat adjustments from the MM books by taking them, subtracting ten (or eleven in uneven cases) and applying the result as bonuses/penalties for future reference.

[Jude_H]

The least dysfunctional campaigns I've played have gone a lot like 90s comic books. Be sure to provide PCs with specific goals, to step all over inclinations to arbitrarily destroy villages (it quickly gets old for just about everyone, but there's always that one guy who doesn't get the hint) and to promote coherent group work (evil campaigns have a tendency toward pvp, which is boring and adds unnecessary work adding new characters to the group).

As has been said, the official Frost Giant probably isn't what you're looking for. Vampire's link looks good, and is probably the way to go.

If you're looking for a by-the-books model and have access to Races of Stone, you might try a Goliath Frostrager.

Goliath is a monstrous humanoid race that's basically a bunch of big mountain rockmen. It has a racial substitution level with the Barbarian class that lets it turn Large when Raging. Goliath has a LA of 1, which can be a drag, but the level adjustment buyoff rules from Unearthed Arcana (on the srd here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm)) make it less bad.

Frostrager is a Prestige class from Frostburn (and is on the WotC website here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040911a&page=3)). It turns a Barbarian into an icy punchy monster when raging. That sounds pretty close to what you're going for.

Other easy-ish options could be:

Half-Giant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicRaces.htm#halfGiants) Psychic Warrior (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/psychicWarrior.htm) using Expansion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/expansion.htm) (for Huge size/Gargantuan modifiers) and Metamorphosis (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/metamorphosis.htm) (to turn into giants), if you want to play up some mental powers in your brute.
Half-Giant Shaman (oriental adventures) with Strength and Hero domains to make generous use of Enlarge Person, Polymorph (for giant forms), Righteous Might and Giant Size (for colossal size). The shaman part could play up tribal elements of a warrior. Shaman is basically a cleric with an animal companion and a bunch of feats to play up unarmed combat.
Master of Many Forms from Complete Adventurer. It's a prestige class that lets characters Wild Shape into giants, among other things. The advantage of WS over polymorph or metamorphosis is that a level 8 MoMF gets to shapeshift for 24 hours a day to the Shaman or Psion's 8-24 minutes.

[Graha013]

1.What kind of experiences have any of you had with Evil campaigns? How can I get into a character who is evil? Any advice on how to really scare my DM somewhat?

I'll quote one of my favorite Outkast songs: Sin all depends on what you're believing in/faith is what you make it/ (and that's the hardest sh*t since MC Ren)

Remember that evil is different to everyone. Assassins are portrayed as evil, unless they're commissioned by the Pope..or some other religious nonsense. Orcs are a particularly muddy water - in the later books of R.A. Salvatore in the Faerun world, they are 'evil and bad' but they fight the Dwarves and the "goodly races" to a stalemate, just to start their own/first/real permenant settlement and begin trading with all of the above. Are they really evil? I played a necromancer (and tried to find a way to bring the idea back to book-basis, but failed) that wasn't inherently evil, he just viewed the powers of necromancer (negative energy) as a natural and inherent power in the world, just as dangerous/evil as positive energy (or hippy energy, or what have you). It was definitely heavy RP to get the paladin in the group to accept it, and who knows how we would have dealt with the balance when I actually reached a caster level to be able to raise undead..?



2. I want to be a brute this time around, I have played a healing class, I have played knight, I have played an arcane spell caster.. What kind of advice could you give for this? Thus far I'm thinking Frost Giant War Hulk.. Which now brings me to the last question.

If you go the classical evil archetypes, there are a couple to choose from. Freaking Frost Giants, with all of their hit dice and level adjustments, are a handful to start with - and you could probably do the same with an easier race. I think half-giant is LA+1? Or half-ogre?

Remember that extra HD and Level adjustments, while a boon in early/low levels, lose their 'effectiveness' as you grow in class levels, and in general, characters without those levels lost to racial bonuses outshine in the end.

[The Rabbler]

just to end the argument:

Joe McRage. level 10 human spirit lion totem whirling frenzy street fighter barbarian. Assume 18 in str. Assume +1 valorous greatsword.

feats: power attack, leap attack, improved bull rush, shock trooper, the rest don't matter.

damage after a charge:
2(2d6+7+40)+2(2d6+7+40) = 216 average.

damage after a charge while raging:
2(2d6+9+40)+2(2d6+9+40)+2(2d6+9+40) = 336 average.

we're also looking at a +hit of +15 (+16 while raging) with a greatsword, even when power attacking. More when you're charging.

This is called an ubercharger. I didn't even need to try. Welcome to the forums.

[Xtomjames]

@ Temet Nosce

I never intended them to be "optimized" but rather examples and no the level adjustment is correct. The template's ecl is even calculated. Albeit what is listed is rather nurfed, the lower total level versus ecl is due to the lacking spells and spell-like abilities which aren't granted in my build. If you include them the total actual level would increase by 4 levels over all. (Its a personal choice of mine to nurf or remove spell-like abilities and spells to reduce the template's over all effect, which I suppose I should have stated).

[Isaac Malus]

Alright! This was righteously successful :smallbiggrin: Obviously now that I understand a bit on the ECL and level adjustment. I called my DM SO apparently it's level 10, (non-good) so not really Evil campaign. Next No half humans... humanoid is fine. I'm gonna look at Half Minotaur more, more race suggestions would be great though.

I'm looking for a brute, not necessarily game breaking but a hard hitter which is why War hulk looked pretty cool. Im looking for a class that we be equally fun to play as to role play. Barbarian, War Hulk, Hulking hurler these are great :P I crave more. :smallsmile:

Edit:

So Half Minotaur is only medium? According to the SRD, not entirely sure what MM he's in. Though I do like the looks of it. Think I am looking for a large hammer or axe.. Saw the goliath warhammer (Races of Stone) That was nifty. Are there any other feats like Monkey grip out there that may enable me to wield a larger weapon, or special materials?
:smalleek:

[The Rabbler]

Awww, I just discovered that Half-Minotaur is from a dragon mag (313 to be exact). I'd post the template here, but I'm not exactly sure the limit of what I can and can't copy and paste from WoTC material. Forum rules are a little foggy.

As for another template worth looking into: Feral. It's in Savage Species, it gives you claw attacks, some great stats, and stacks amazingly well with half-minotaur or other low-LA size increasing races/templates (goliath can work too).

A weapon that you might be interested in is the greathorn minotaur hammer, found in the section describing the greathorn minotaur in the MMIV. it's a 1d12 base damage weapon with a crit range of 19-20 and a crit multiplier of x4. I consider it one of the few exotic weapons that are worth taking a feat for.

And finally, about using a larger weapon: don't. Feats should be doing your damage for you; a weapon's base damage does very little to influence your base damage if you pick the right feats. If you absolutely must use a larger weapon, a goliath or half-ogre's powerful build racial ability allow them to use weapons as if they were large. If you aren't a goliath or a half-ogre, the strongarm bracers from MIC will effectively do the same thing. I think they're 3,000 gold, but I haven't checked in a long while. Also, never pick monkey grip.

[Isaac Malus]

Never? I'm lost here heh.

[Keld Denar]

@ Temet Nosce

I never intended them to be "optimized" but rather examples and no the level adjustment is correct. The template's ecl is even calculated. Albeit what is listed is rather nurfed, the lower total level versus ecl is due to the lacking spells and spell-like abilities which aren't granted in my build. If you include them the total actual level would increase by 4 levels over all. (Its a personal choice of mine to nurf or remove spell-like abilities and spells to reduce the template's over all effect, which I suppose I should have stated).

Which version of minotaur are you using? I see a lot of racial HD in there, and I'm kinda a bit lost. There are like, 5-6 different minotuars and half minotaurs printed in various books...

But yea, it looks like you aren't accounting for additional LA. Half Fiend is a +4 LA. You have 16 HD. That means that you are ECL20, and still haven't accounted for any LA attributed to being a minotaur. I'm just curious where you are getting your minotaur from.

EDIT: Is it this?


Minotaurs As Characters
Minotaur characters possess the following racial traits.

+8 Strength, +4 Constitution, -4 Intelligence (minimum 3), -2 Charisma.
Large size. -1 penalty to Armor Class, -1 penalty on attack rolls, -4 penalty on Hide checks, +4 bonus on grapple checks, lifting and carrying limits double those of Medium characters.
Space/Reach: 10 feet/10 feet.
A minotaur’s base land speed is 30 feet.
Darkvision out to 60 feet.
Racial Hit Dice: A minotaur begins with six levels of monstrous humanoid, which provide 6d8 Hit Dice, a base attack bonus of +6, and base saving throw bonuses of Fort +2, Ref +5, and Will +5.
Racial Skills: A minotaur’s monstrous humanoid levels give it skill points equal to 9 × (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1). Its class skills are Intimidate, Jump, Listen, Search, and Spot. Minotaurs have a +4 racial bonus on Search, Spot, and Listen checks.
Racial Feats: A minotaur’s monstrous humanoid levels give it three feats.
Weapon Proficiency: A minotaur is proficient with the greataxe and all simple weapons.
+5 natural armor bonus.
Natural Weapons: Gore (1d8).
Special Attacks (see above): Powerful charge.
Special Qualities (see above): Natural cunning, scent.
Automatic Languages: Common, Giant. Bonus Languages: Orc, Goblin, Terran.
Favored Class: Barbarian.
Level adjustment +2.

If so, you are decidedly ECL22, which is epic range...and things are already dumb enough up there as it is.

[Kenneth]

Hi! This is my first post so I apologize if there is a certain etiquette I happen to be missing. I am fairly new to tabletops, the main one I play being D&D 3.5.. I have, however, found myself hooked on role playing table tops. Most of my friends who have started to DM have been making campaigns that follow a rather specific plot however, it tends to be, "World in chaos you and these guys are all we got to save us." This chain is about to be broken however with a game my friend is setting up for.

Here is where the Questions starts:

1.What kind of experiences have any of you had with Evil campaigns? How can I get into a character who is evil? Any advice on how to really scare my DM somewhat?

2. I want to be a brute this time around, I have played a healing class, I have played knight, I have played an arcane spell caster.. What kind of advice could you give for this? Thus far I'm thinking Frost Giant War Hulk.. Which now brings me to the last question.

3. How the heck do I make a frost Giant? :smalleek: I have looked at the Monster Manual and they are level adjustment +4 however it's the stats, saves and what not I am confused about, Where can I find those? Is there a way to break it down from the book?

Sorry If this post bothers you, I'm just new to the scene and with all there is I feel really lost.

1) ive never actually had any good luck at all playing an evil campaign ( I am witht eh gygax idea of D%D so i don't DM evil ones) ive found that 9 out of the 10 players in an 'evil' campagin are evil only in the fact that they have it on their character sheet. here are soem example. an evil cleric cast the hallow spell so that he could heal the party's monk who had taken some vile damage. OR there is the barbarian who risk his life to save a little girl from a burning house.

I did play an evil warlock once ( not the D&D elrtich blast version a demon binding version) what did I do. evil stuff. FOr example we were staying at an inn and some guys from earlier was trying to start a fight and insulted my charcater . later than night I snuck into their rooms and stripped them naked, eviscerated them and hung them upsdie down from their windows. The DM took me aside during our food break and asked what did I think i was doing doing that I replied " Im evil.. those guys angered me and isulted something that lies at the very core of my charcater, instead of asking for an apology like some goody two shoes, I made an example of them"

2) forget frost giant.. be a Troll.Large? check. Regernation? check INSANE con? check. its nice and Ive playe don talk about a brute all I had to do was chug soem fire resist potions and i was good to go in an fight It was pretty fun to the say the least going in and just savaging things with my claw/claw/bite routine.

3) Savage species might have the info on a forst giant BUT there is a mathematical formual for determining a creatures ability modifers you take the Actual socre listed and subtract 10 (or 11 if an odd number) and that is the bonus, or penalty you get in that particular score.

[Xtomjames]

Which version of minotaur are you using? I see a lot of racial HD in there, and I'm kinda a bit lost. There are like, 5-6 different minotuars and half minotaurs printed in various books...

But yea, it looks like you aren't accounting for additional LA. Half Fiend is a +4 LA. You have 16 HD. That means that you are ECL20, and still haven't accounted for any LA attributed to being a minotaur. I'm just curious where you are getting your minotaur from.

EDIT: Is it this?


If so, you are decidedly ECL22, which is epic range...and things are already dumb enough up there as it is.

A minotaur has a level adjustment of +2 MM page 189, the half-fiend template is a level adjustment of +4 (see page 147), total LA is +6 which is already accounted for. HD only applies to calculating ECL. Total hd is also sitting at guess what 6...you gain no hit dice from the template.

So the total level with the two characters I gened (the Monk and the Barbarian) is 14 and 16 respectively.

[tyckspoon]

So the total level with the two characters I gened (the Monk and the Barbarian) is 14 and 16 respectively.

Umm. NO. If they're using the same race and the same template, they will have the same character level. You don't get to selectively ignore LA just because you don't feel like it's very useful to a particular character.

[Keld Denar]

Looking at your breakdown, I see:


Level 1: Monstrous Humanoid 8
Level 2: Monstrous Humanoid 5
Level 3: Monstrous Humanoid 5
Level 4: Monstrous Humanoid 5 +1 to constitution
Level 5: Monstrous Humanoid 5
Level 6: Monstrous Humanoid 5
Level 7: Barbarian 7
Level 8: Barbarian 7 +1 to constitution
Level 9: Barbarian 7
Level 10: Barbarian 7
Level 11: Barbarian 7
Level 12: Barbarian 7 +1 to constitution
Level 13: Barbarian 7
Level 14: Barbarian 7
Level 15: Barbarian 7
Level 16: Barbarian 7 +1 to constitution

Those are 6 RHD (monstrous humanoid "levels"), 10 levels of Barbarian, and the +6 worth of LA you didn't include (4 for half fiend, 2 for minotaur).

So yea...this character IS ECL22.

And yea...its ok, but not great...it still isn't very "deep" beyond WAAAAAG SMASH!. A little Power Attack + Three Mountains would go a long way to making him deeper by giving him a status debuff he can apply to foes too strong to affect with the "dead" status debuff in one round.

[Lonely Tylenol]

1.What kind of experiences have any of you had with Evil campaigns? How can I get into a character who is evil? Any advice on how to really scare my DM somewhat?

My evil character was a dashing, cunning Roguish type (surprise surprise, it was a Rogue) who was very ambitious, and surrounded with very imaginative villains (which isn't to say that he wasn't imaginative himself). The ambition was the hook for my character--he was trying to steal his way into ruling the underworld of a very large metropolis by amassing his own gang and then playing everybody against each other so that what was left of the gangs could easily be overrun and then united under his name. Of course, he had a legitimate front--complete with fake title and name--but that was the big one.

Just remember that your character likely isn't evil for the sake of being evil (though that certainly has been done before)--your character wants something, and what makes him evil is what he's willing to do to get it.


2. I want to be a brute this time around, I have played a healing class, I have played knight, I have played an arcane spell caster.. What kind of advice could you give for this? Thus far I'm thinking Frost Giant War Hulk.. Which now brings me to the last question.

My younger brother, who was playing for the first time, was a CE Barbarian in this campaign, and he did a very good job wreaking havoc as my muscle. I can't explain how he picked up on the freedom D&D gives and ran with it so easily, but I can tell you that one thing your brute should always do is know he's a brute--thus not only using your muscle to solve your problems, but also knowing you can use your muscle to solve your problems. The result? First session, verbatim, while interrogating a prisoner: "I strip to my loincloth and threaten him with his dignity."


3. How the heck do I make a frost Giant? :smalleek: I have looked at the Monster Manual and they are level adjustment +4 however it's the stats, saves and what not I am confused about, Where can I find those? Is there a way to break it down from the book?

I've got nothing.

[Isaac Malus]

SO I just found out we will have an Erinyes and an illithid, my DM seems to be under the impression that my Goliath will be fine against an Erinyes with all its racial abilities and stats according to the books (With the strategy of subtracting 10 if even 11 if odd). >.> For the base 7+ LA when I tried to explain that just getting rid of the hit die does not make up for the fact this person will have practically +10 to every stat just destroy them, it just ended up in an argument that "Something over 9 levels could not get these stats without at least these adjustments." "Yea but effectively giving her all this SHOULD make her ECL 16"

When It was revealed taking away the hit die would give her about 36-46hp max he told me "Everything will be okay. I'll work on it.".. I don't know how to explain why I am uneasy about leaving it all to him with that reaction. Frustration is reaching a peak imaging we are all gonna have to use "Point Buy" My Goliath will have little chance with this campaign starting as an arena. Just posting here I've learned more about ECL and balancing monster classes. I can only see the battle starting at the end of this and either hardly making it out alive OR being the weakest member of this party.

[Xtomjames]

Looking at your breakdown, I see:


Those are 6 RHD (monstrous humanoid "levels"), 10 levels of Barbarian, and the +6 worth of LA you didn't include (4 for half fiend, 2 for minotaur).

So yea...this character IS ECL22.

And yea...its ok, but not great...it still isn't very "deep" beyond WAAAAAG SMASH!. A little Power Attack + Three Mountains would go a long way to making him deeper by giving him a status debuff he can apply to foes too strong to affect with the "dead" status debuff in one round.

You miss understand, that is the breakdown of gained hit points, and what was rolled. Since with a +2 LA from the Minotaur you have 6HD gained from the Minotaur. You have to roll those and then add the total from remaining levels gained from the character classes. Do not confuse a progression that explains HP gained for the total level of the character.

Let me break this down: A Minotaur Half-Fiend Barbarian level 16, has a base level adjustment of 6 and has 6 racial hit dice. If you played a straight Minotaur Half-Fiend you'd have gained 6 hit-dice and be considered and effective character level of 6. Its a one to one HD comparison. Thus the character's level is 16 as I've stated, the ECL is 22. In an XP game this doesn't matter as much in a non-xp game ECL would be more of an issue. What more is, as I said, I nerfed these builds to remove the magical components from the Half-fiend template to make it a workable ECL (which I'll tell you now I estimate after being nerfed is close to 17, without being nerfed it's extremely powerful.)

What more this barbarian build would beat the snot your Barbarian with Three Mountains, guaranteed.

[The Rabbler]

If your DM is going so balls out, I say you really show him how terribly ignoring LA can be for a campaign. Pick up the Epic Level Handbook and make a paragon leeshay. If he won't let you pick an epic level monster as your race, make a paragon pseudonatural human commoner 1. Show him what templates and strangeoverpowered races will do to a campaign.


You miss understand, that is the breakdown of gained hit points, and what was rolled. Since with a +2 LA from the Minotaur you have 6HD gained from the Minotaur. You have to roll those and then add the total from remaining levels gained from the character classes. Do not confuse a progression that explains HP gained for the total level of the character.

At the end of the day, a build with a set level restriction (say level 10) needs to have a ECL of 10. that means that all RHD+ all class levels + all LA need to equal 10. Your build put that monk character at ECL 22, an epic level character. You are misunderstanding.

Also, you are arguing with Keld Denar; the ancient superbeing who deserves the title of "elder evil in the playground". Chances are, he knows what he's talking about.


Let me break this down: A Minotaur Half-Fiend Barbarian level 16, has a base level adjustment of 6 and has 6 racial hit dice. If you played a straight Minotaur Half-Fiend you'd have gained 6 hit-dice and be considered and effective character level of 6. Its a one to one HD comparison. Thus the character's level is 16 as I've stated, the ECL is 22. In an XP game this doesn't matter as much in a non-xp game ECL would be more of an issue. What more is, as I said, I nerfed these builds to remove the magical components from the Half-fiend template to make it a workable ECL (which I'll tell you now I estimate after being nerfed is close to 17, without being nerfed it's extremely powerful.)

ECL means effective character level because it's your character's level after you've applied those extra little things like racial hit dice and level adjustment. A character whose ECL is 15 is roughly as powerful as a level 15 character (at least by the rules of D&D) and is to be treated as such. You are wrong.



What more this barbarian build would beat the snot your Barbarian with Three Mountains, guaranteed.
You are in so far over your head...

[Keld Denar]

If you played a straight Minotaur Half-Fiend you'd have gained 6 hit-dice and be considered and effective character level of 6. Its a one to one HD comparison.
See, this is the part where you are NOT correct. A straight Minotaur Half Fiend has 6 RHD + 2 LA + 4 LA, and is thus effectively counted as a 12th level character. He has the same XP as a 12th level character, the same WBL as a 12th level character, but he only has 6 hit dice. You are the one who is confused about how ECL is calculated. ECL = RHD + LA + levels. ECL is how challenges are calculated. An ECL12 minotuar character is expected to face EL12-15 encounters, not EL6 encounters. The whole PURPOSE of LA is to balance out strong racial abilities vs actual character levels. You are ignoring the LA from your Minotaur, which is wrong.


What more this barbarian build would beat the snot your Barbarian with Three Mountains, guaranteed.

Debatable...but I'm not really in a sword-waiving mood. Maybe sometime, if you are interested, we could have a heads-up battle? Pick an ECL, post a LEGAL build, and maybe we could find a neutral arbitrater to DM an appropriate EL encounter against each? Vs fights generally aren't very telling (although we could do one of those, if you REALLY wanted).

EDIT:

You are in so far over your head...

Oh, don't SCARE him...I'm curious to see how this'll turn out! *shifty grin*

[Kuma Kode]

SO I just found out we will have an Erinyes and an illithid, my DM seems to be under the impression that my Goliath will be fine against an Erinyes with all its racial abilities and stats according to the books (With the strategy of subtracting 10 if even 11 if odd). >.> For the base 7+ LA when I tried to explain that just getting rid of the hit die does not make up for the fact this person will have practically +10 to every stat just destroy them, it just ended up in an argument that "Something over 9 levels could not get these stats without at least these adjustments." "Yea but effectively giving her all this SHOULD make her ECL 16"

When It was revealed taking away the hit die would give her about 36-46hp max he told me "Everything will be okay. I'll work on it.".. I don't know how to explain why I am uneasy about leaving it all to him with that reaction. Frustration is reaching a peak imaging we are all gonna have to use "Point Buy" My Goliath will have little chance with this campaign starting as an arena. Just posting here I've learned more about ECL and balancing monster classes. I can only see the battle starting at the end of this and either hardly making it out alive OR being the weakest member of this party.
This is generally why I never do monster campaigns. ECL and LA are usually pretty fubar anyway, and never really helps the situation because most monsters end up being considered higher level than they really should or end up as glass cannons with 3 HD in a 11th level campaign.

This causes DMs to eyeball it. Unless the DM has previously displayed a very strong grasp of mechanics and how LA is supposed to work, this will fail disastrously. Have him explain LA and ECL to you. If he can't, he's changing something without actually knowing what he's changing; he quite literally doesn't understand what he's doing.

Try pointing him to these forums. We're pretty good at educating people as to why things are the way they are, and we're more than willing to help him balance the group. In fact, I've come to these boards several times with questions like, "I have W, X, Y, and Z characters, their classes are A/B, C, D, and E/F. How can I make this work?" and have gotten thorough explanations for which characters are in danger of outshining which other ones and how to avoid it.

Doing a little research and asking more experienced DMs for assistance is far better than botching an entire campaign and leaving everyone with a bad taste in their mouth. I used to do the "eh, I'll just ignore such and such LA or remove their racial hit die and they'll be okay" thing, but it never went well. I still look back on those campaigns and think "man, I wasted a lot of time and effort messing with that."

[Isaac Malus]

See, sadly I can't let myself do that. My girlfriend who is also going to be joining the game said in this case I should just forget it and go frost giant. While this is conceivable I find myself already unable to part with this character, not only is it within the rules originally sanctioned. My goal was to try to make a character I would enjoy, I feel if this character truly makes it in the long run it's one I can look back on with fond memories. If I was to make a frost giant I can only compare it to using a gameshark to get everything you need in a game. Suddenly it all feels so empty.. :smalleek: thus far it seems like my girlfriend, my best friend and I will be the only ones making character within the correct parameters. Should we not make it through the "Battle Royal" preliminaries then so be it, but I think these are character we could really enjoy in the end with all the work we have put into it.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

My two cents, feel free to take it or not...

So you want to be a 'bruiser', eh? Decidedly swimming in the deep end of the alignment pool?

We can do that for you, my friend. We're even going to be using Warhulk to do it.

First off, for race, get a Half-Ogre. It's Large size, which means you can hulk it out, as that is the primary prerequisite you have to worry about. It's also a +1 level adjustment, so not too shabby.

Now then, we go with Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian 1. Why? POUNCE! Full attack progression on a charge is a lot of fun. Also, D12 HD. Also, use the Whirling Frenzy variant so that you get an extra attack.

From there, we pick up Psychic Warrior 4. Why? Well, two reasons. One is feats, this is going to be feat intensive. The other is called Expansion.

The next level is something of a wild card, to be honest. Basically, it just needs to be a full BAB class. Hell, Fighter works, with an additional bonus feat.

The next 10 levels will be War hulk. Pick up a Skillful Spiked Chain (skillful includes proficency, so you don't get a -4 penalty with it, and also nets you a 3/4 BAB effectively, which negates the problem Warhulk has with NO BAB).

Your feats will look something like this:

Power Attack, Leap Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Shock Trooper

What this means:

You use Expansion to Huge size. You're basically hitting everyone within 30' of you with your spiked chain. As an attack action. Now, jump into the middle of combat (Charge, using Leap Attack), and make a full Power Attack, taking a penalty on AC rather than Attack, for ZOMGWTFBBQ damage output on everything in reach. Watch as you cut a swath of death and destruction through the battlefield.

Oh yea, one other thing... every time you swing, you're tripping. Why? Because it's a touch attack, which means you can't possibly miss, and prone gives you a bonus on the FREE attack roll that Improved Trip grants. With a Huge size, and your ENORMOUS Str bonus (since your Str keeps piling up higher and higher as you get levels of Warhulk), if it CAN be tripped, it WILL be. Yes, tripping the Tarrasque is pathetically easy for you.

If you have the spare feats, pick up Karmic Strike and Combat Reflexes. With your AC in the negatives, you get to have a lot of fun. Basically, they hit you, which provokes an Attack of Opportunity, which you use to trip then smack them. So go ahead... get hit. I personally guarantee that your opponent will hurt more than you will be.

If you are really worried about being hurt, pick up a two-level dip in Crusader (which fits an evil flavor really easily). Now pick up the feats Stone Power and Shards of Granite. Not only are you ignoring DR and Hardness whenever you swing at things, but you've basically got 10 temporary hit points that refreshes every round. That's tantamount to ignoring the first 10 damage of every round. On top of the Delay Damage pool you have, it's going to be quite an effort to actually HURT you even if they DO hit you... oh yea, that also means you get to pick up a stance that heals you 2 damage every time you hit an opponent. Remember that Warhulk ability that lets you hit every single opponent in melee reach as an attack action? Congratulations, it's also providing more healing than most Clerics can provide.

Have a nice day.

[Isaac Malus]

Where can I find half orge?

[Keld Denar]

Races of the Wild has the most current printing of half ogre. +2 LA, no RHD.

[Isaac Malus]

Edit: Nevermind, I found a gray jester Template she can use.

[Xtomjames]

See, this is the part where you are NOT correct. A straight Minotaur Half Fiend has 6 RHD + 2 LA + 4 LA, and is thus effectively counted as a 12th level character. He has the same XP as a 12th level character, the same WBL as a 12th level character, but he only has 6 hit dice. You are the one who is confused about how ECL is calculated. ECL = RHD + LA + levels. ECL is how challenges are calculated. An ECL12 minotuar character is expected to face EL12-15 encounters, not EL6 encounters. The whole PURPOSE of LA is to balance out strong racial abilities vs actual character levels. You are ignoring the LA from your Minotaur, which is wrong.



Debatable...but I'm not really in a sword-waiving mood. Maybe sometime, if you are interested, we could have a heads-up battle? Pick an ECL, post a LEGAL build, and maybe we could find a neutral arbitrater to DM an appropriate EL encounter against each? Vs fights generally aren't very telling (although we could do one of those, if you REALLY wanted).

EDIT:


Oh, don't SCARE him...I'm curious to see how this'll turn out! *shifty grin*

I'm going to make this clear. Actual level is not the same as ECL.

A straight minotaur half-fiend has an Actual level of 6. It's ECL is used only in calculating XP gained in an encounter and starting gold.

Effective Character Level means that the character as a whole should be effective as a combination of HD and Level Adjustment. However this assumption is false (which is why in every other version of D&D its completely changed and different, and why in the Errata its been changed.) If I were to pit a straight Minotaur Half-Fiend against an actual level 12 character of any class it'd lose hands down.

ECL is not the same of actual Character Level. A game with a character level of 10 is not the same as a game that has a limited ECL of 10.

I very much suggest you actually go and READ what ECL is instead of arguing with me on here and spouting BS which I've refuted (the same way) three times now.

Just because you think you know what ECL is doesn't mean you do.

[tyckspoon]

I'm going to make this clear. Actual level is not the same as ECL.

A straight minotaur half-fiend has an Actual level of 6. It's ECL is used only in calculating XP gained in an encounter and starting gold.


Ok, because I'm getting kind of a headache trying to figure out what you're actually saying: Do you mean that, despite getting the gold of a level 12 character, and requiring the xp of a level 12 character to level, and receiving xp for encounters of a level 12 character (which, accordingly, means he's not really rewarded for level 6 encounters in a meaningful way).. the Half-Fiend Minotaur is in fact suitable to play with a party of bog-standard level 6 PHB-race, non-LA adventurers, and should only be expected to deal with party-level-6 challenges? Or are you just complaining about the overuse of the word 'level' again and how the ECL/LA system doesn't really work in practice, which.. well, we know that, but it doesn't change what ECL means to the system assumptions.

Edit: And honestly, it mostly looks like you're making a highly sophist argument about how 'level' and 'ECL' aren't exactly the same thing, so people should be verrrryy precise about which one they mean just in case you're talking about one of the very few parts of the system where it actually makes a difference.

[NecroRick]

Since you're already willing to play a larger than normal character, there's a bunch of scary builds based around Goliaths, or half Goliaths or whatever. Search for "Dungeoncrasher"

Being larger gives you a bonus (I think) for things like grappling and tripping.
Then they jujitsu this into getting a free trip when they bullrush, then a free bullrush when they trip (repeat ad nauseam), then because bullrushing may or may not provoke attacks of opportunity they take some other feat to give themselves a free attack when some AoOps them, which they take as a bullrush... (rinse and repeat).

So you just need to be big and strong and take the right feats and you'll break the game and/or scare your DM

[Kuma Kode]

Ok, because I'm getting kind of a headache trying to figure out what you're actually saying: Do you mean that, despite getting the gold of a level 12 character, and requiring the xp of a level 12 character to level, and receiving xp for encounters of a level 12 character (which, accordingly, means he's not really rewarded for level 6 encounters in a meaningful way).. the Half-Fiend Minotaur is in fact suitable to play with a party of bog-standard level 6 PHB-race, non-LA adventurers, and should only be expected to deal with party-level-6 challenges? It was pretty clear to me that he meant that for the DM's and meta-game purposes, like experience requirements, starting gold, and proper experience rewards, the character is considered level 12. It does not, however, actually have 12 levels; for things like spells that affect creatures of only a certain level, or for caster level, or for feats or anything actually dealing with the character itself, it would still only have 6 levels.

[Keld Denar]

I'm going to make this clear. Actual level is not the same as ECL.
"Actual level" is not a game term. The term I think you are looking for is "hit dice". Hit dice are used for things like calculating HP, and determining whether or not you'd be affected by a sleep spell. The only other game term that factors in here is ECL. Effective Character Level. What does ECL mean?

Level Adjustment and Effective Character Level
To determine the effective character level (ECL) of a monster character, add its level adjustment to its racial Hit Dice and character class levels.

Use ECL instead of character level to determine how many experience points a monster character needs to reach its next level. Also use ECL to determine starting wealth for a monster character.

Monster characters treat skills mentioned in their monster entry as class skills.

If a monster has 1 Hit Die or less, or if it is a template creature, it must start the game with one or more class levels, like a regular character. If a monster has 2 or more Hit Dice, it can start with no class levels (though it can gain them later).

Even if the creature is of a kind that normally advances by Hit Dice rather than class levels a PC can gain class levels rather than Hit Dice.
So, it looks like the rules DO support me. ECL is racial HD + level adjustment + class levels. So what is a hit die?

Hit Dice
The creature’s Hit Dice equal the number of class levels it has plus its racial Hit Dice. Additional Hit Dice gained from taking levels in a character class never affect a creature’s size like additional racial Hit Dice do.
So HD are the sum of your Racial HD + character class levels. The difference here is Level Adjustment(LA), the part that you are partially neglecting. You have LA from two sources. Half fiend is a template that gives a +4 LA. Minotaur is a race that gives +2 LA (and also has 6 RHD). You aren't counting the +2 LA from Minotaur, which is wrong.

So yea, a Half Fiend Minotaur is the same as a 12th level character, even though he only has 6 HD. If he was adventuring in a group with other adventures, he SHOULD be adventuring with other 12th level characters, not other 6th level characters, and he should be facing encounters appropriate for 12th level characters, not 6th level characters.

Yea, a Minotaur Half-Fiend would kick ANY 6th level character's butt. Thats cause he's effectively 6 levels higher than him, even though they have the same number of hit dice. Thats...kinda a no brainer. An appropriate comparison would be such a Minotaur vs a 12th level character. Despite his superior stats, the Minotaur will lose this encounter simply due to the larger number of feats, BAB, HP, and abilities that come with having 6 more HD.


Just because you think you know what ECL is doesn't mean you do.
To quote Inigo Montoya: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." I'm pretty sure I DO know what ECL is, as quoted in the above citation straight from the SRD. Do you have any rules citations as to what "actual level" means? I'm curious....what do you think the line at the bottom of the "Minotaurs as characters" section that says "Level Adjustment +2" means? I'll give you a hint, it means the exact same thing as the similar line means in the Half Fiend description.

[Isaac Malus]

Oh my.. Please you are all being very helpful, I'd rather this not break into a fight.. :smalleek:

[Kuma Kode]

Oh my.. Please you are all being very helpful, I'd rather this not break into a fight.. :smalleek:

What's worse is that it looks like they're saying the same thing in completely roundabout ways from one-another.

[tyckspoon]

What's worse is that it looks like they're saying the same thing in completely roundabout ways from one-another.

I suppose I really just to know how he determined that a Half-Fiend Minotaur Monk gets less levels than a Half-Fiend Minotaur Barbarian, assuming both are being built to the same target.. something. Clearly not levels or ECl.

[kardar233]

If you take Shneeky's build and find a feat somewhere (maybe flaw?) to grab Knockdown, you will be a god among mortals.

Playing Evil can be scary sometimes. Here's my story:

I joined a campaign that was based in Naggaroth, the Dark Elf homeland of Warhammer. Think drow, but cut the female-dominance and the spider-worshipping in favour of more head-chopping. I was informed that we're all scheming, Xanatos Gambitting characters trying to intrigue our way to the top.

If I do say so myself, I consider myself of fairly high intelligence. I think methodically, adaptively and in great complexity. I decided that my character would be every inch as intelligent and radical as I was.

So I made a thought experiment. I turned my sense of morality on its head, and imagined a sadistic, narcissistic, manipulative, scheming sword-wielding psychopath with the same thought structures and processes as I had.

It was scary. It made me think of The Silence of the Lambs, at first.

But it worked. I played through that campaign, and it was by far the most successful I've ever been in. I ended up taking control of one of the six cities through a combination of scheming and slaughtering.

I did some things that, in our after-game discussions, scared some of the other people. For example, I built my raiding ship into a psychological weapon by covering the decks with flayed hides, made sails from skin and hanged skulls made into bells from the oars to create an ominous clamor. Three still-living victims hung from barbed hooks off the prow, and when I caught him I used the enemy admiral's corpse as the spout for my Greek Fire.

But it ended up being, as I said, incredibly successful. To this day, Lacion remains one of my favourite characters.