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ImperatorK
2011-07-09, 06:28 PM
We have a group of strong characters who are quite capable of taking care of themselves. As a group they are strong thanks to their individual power.
Now, how would you approach those characters (not players, just characters) to teach them to better work as a team?
Simply saying "Work as a team guys, it is more practical" won't work, because those characters are strongly individual and don't want to accept that they could need help of someone else.
The purpose of this is that I want them to be even more effective against more powerful opponents and overwhelming odds, in case that their own power (even with them all together) isn't enough.

Shadowknight12
2011-07-09, 06:47 PM
Don't approach the characters, approach the players. Tell them "Hey, I think it'd be good if you guys worked out some tactics, teamwork and the like. There are a lot of foes that won't be able to be taken down easily one-on-one."

If they're hard sells, have some examples prepared, like an enemy spellcaster with Greater Invisibility, Mirror Image, Displacement, Improved Mage Armour, Shield, Celerity and Dominate Person (sneaks up on the party and takes out two of them in the surprise round, then turns them into enemies, plus is also rather difficult to eliminate swiftly).

Or the I.S., the Incorporeal Septet, a group of incorporeal undead who can drain every single ability score and inflict negative levels (Shadow, Spectre, Wraith, Dream Vestige, Banshee, Allip and Forgewraith (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20041105b&page=6)). I haven't calculated the CR for that (as it probably requires a higher number of the lower-CR creatures, or perhaps their advancement towards stronger forms), but it does require a high amount of teamwork to overcome.

Either way, it's not going to happen unless your players agree to it. You have to convince them that it's in their best interest to do so. If they don't agree, ask them if it's because they don't believe you (and hence they need a demonstration) or because they have more fun acting as strong individual figures. Some people have more fun that way, and you shouldn't force something they don't want upon them.

What matters is that they have fun, remember. :smallwink:

ImperatorK
2011-07-09, 06:49 PM
Um... I think I said that it's not players, but just characters. I am talking about in-character teaching, not OOC. Also I'm not talking about PC, but characters in general.

Kuma Kode
2011-07-09, 07:01 PM
Show them how it's done.

Have a group of enemies who focus completely on teamwork, acting as one ridiculously powerful unit and utilizing their powers to the benefit of the team. If the heroes don't pull themselves together, they'll get divided up and ganged up on.

Better yet, have it prey on their particular weaknesses.

This can be hard if you aren't using a system that really rewards teamwork.

Shadowknight12
2011-07-09, 07:08 PM
Yes, I know you said that, which is exactly why I said the exact opposite. If the players are not convinced, no amount of IC talk will convince the actual characters. Regardless of how much sense it makes for the characters, if the players don't want to do it, they'll find a way to justify not doing it. Or they'll only make the slightest token effort and then go back to doing their own thing.

Assuming the players are on board with this, just ask the players if they'd be okay with you throwing a really hard fight with the precise intention to defeat them or perhaps get them to flee or scrape a Pyrrhic victory. That's the most common justification for the "we must learn to work as a team" subplot in other media: the crushing defeat. Even if they win, it's clear that they have to improve their tactics. Here what needs to be emphasised is that it could have all been solved if they had worked together. For example, in the case of the aforementioned scry-and-die wizard who mind-controlled the fighter and the rogue and turned them against the wizard and the bard while the cleric fruitlessly tried to bypass the wizard's protections, the team could benefit from the following analysis:

"The fighter and the cleric wouldn't have been mind controlled if the cleric or the wizard spared a Protection From Evil for them" or "the cleric wouldn't have had such a problem harming the evil wizard if the party wizard would have spared a Dispel Magic against him," or "the bard wouldn't have hit the negatives if the cleric had spared him a Cure Wounds" and so on.

This is just one example, of course, and it may not apply at all for your party. Instead what you do is take the essence of what I'm suggesting (something that has a multi-pronged attack and targets the party's weaknesses, weaknesses that can be prevented by another party member's actions) and use it as an IC justification for learning teamwork.

Another strategy is for them to meet a party that is similar to them, but fundamentally different, and have them act like a synchronised, unified whole, then contrast with their individualistic, disorganised fashion.

Another alternative is to have teamwork tied with the overarching plot. If there's a legend about five crystals that have to be found and placed in the Holy Sanctum to save the world from destruction, and then that legend is actually a metaphor for five people from different backgrounds who come together to act as one to prevent some terrible evil, that delivers the message quite well.

And finally, another way is to simply have more powerful or more reputable NPCs criticising them about it. Implying that important NPCs don't respect them as much as they should, precisely because they're disorganised (perhaps playing up the "they're still immature youngsters" angle) does a lot to get the characters to start seriously considering that maybe raw power isn't the answer to every single situation.

EDIT: Swordsage'd.

ImperatorK
2011-07-09, 07:16 PM
Yes, I know you said that, which is exactly why I said the exact opposite. If the players are not convinced, no amount of IC talk will convince the actual characters. Regardless of how much sense it makes for the characters, if the players don't want to do it, they'll find a way to justify not doing it. Or they'll only make the slightest token effort and then go back to doing their own thing.
Yeah, but the thing is - it's not about PCs. :smallannoyed: If I would have problems with PCs (that means players) then I would say "PCs/players" instead "characters". I am talking about CHARACTERS in a game. It could be PCs or NPCs. Don't assume that I'm talking about players when I'm not saying such a thing. :smallsmile:
But overall your suggestions are very good.

Anderlith
2011-07-09, 07:23 PM
Give them an encounter that will force them to be a team. A chasm that needs jumped, undead that need to be turned, an ogre that needs dealt with & a copper dragon/bard that is singing & suggesting the characters to do bad decisions-- all at once

I find it strange that they wouldn't already function as a team considering all the buffs a Wizard & Cleric could give, & the flanking/backstabbing teamwork opportunities. & this is just basic stuff

Shadowknight12
2011-07-09, 07:24 PM
Yeah, but the thing is - it's not about PCs. :smallannoyed: If I would have problems with PCs (that means players) then I would say "PCs/players" instead "characters". I am talking about CHARACTERS in a game. It could be PCs or NPCs. Don't assume that I'm talking about players when I'm not saying such a thing. :smallsmile:
But overall your suggestions are very good.

I'm not assuming, I'm simply offering you information you might not be aware of. If you are aware of it, then my bad, I apologise. :smallwink:

Glad to help!

Frozen_Feet
2011-07-09, 07:41 PM
Question:

Have you been in the army, or any teamsport whatsoever? If you have, many exercises and reasonings from there are valid within a gameworld too.

Xanmyral
2011-07-09, 07:54 PM
Adversity and hardships are oft the fire from which friendship is forged.

While people may often be individualistic, even the most selfish of people, with a brain, will work with those around them when their backs are against the wall with no way out. The phrase "strength in numbers" wasn't made to be fancy. Situations that invoke a "work together or die" kind of response would work. Perhaps the characters are friends? Maybe the got shafted by the same enemy, or are altruistic? Perhaps some greater power then them is forcing them to work together. Many reasons.

Golden-Esque
2011-07-11, 08:10 PM
Cast mass alter age and send them all to preschool. Reboot the adventure a decade later and hope that none of your PCs was a bully.