Pathfinder Sword and Board

[Vattic]

Hello everyone, I'm pretty new to pathfinder (I've played a sorcerer/rogue to level 7 and a switch hitting ranger from 7-11) and due to a recent character death I find myself considering my options.

The party really needs someone who can take a lot of damage, and also dish it out when need be. What I'm looking for are suggestions for an effective build. The thread title is, well, what it is, but Honestly I'm open to anything. I'd like to play a fighter who is an absolute beast in combat using sword and shield, but if there is some other class combo that can fulfill this role then I'd be more than happy to consider it.

A friend and a player in the game that I am in suggested a spirit of the beast (treantmonk) druid build, but in all honesty it doesn't appeal to me that much.

What we have to work with:

I can start at 11th level.
Stats are 4d6 drop lowest
Any core + Paizo supplements (no 3.0-3.5 material)
A full cleric of sarenrae (12th lvl)
A bard/barbarian gish (surprisingly effective and awesome)
An earth focused geomancer wizard

I'd like to stick with human, and basically optimize him out. The main issue for me is that I don't have a lot of free time to really noodle this build out, and I'd love for some of you folk who have dealt with this sort of thing to help me.

I'd be most grateful for any help that you could offer.

Thank you in advance for your time,

Vattic

[MeeposFire]

Well if you do go sword and shield realize that the feat shield mastery is crazy good. It eliminates penalties to your attack roll with a shield while wielding another weapon (which could be anything including another spiked shield). These penalties would include two weapon fighting, the penalty from imp and greater two weapon fighting, and even power attack.

So take a dual spiked shield wielding character with this feat and the two weapon fighting feat chain at level 20 (with 20BAB). Your attack would look like this before any other abilities added

+20/+20/+20/+20/+15/+10/+5

All of those with Power attack on (since it does not affect the attack roll because it is a penalty). You also get a bonus to attacks equal to your shield enhancement bonus.

Normally shields and two weapon fighting is not OP but with this feat it is just silly.

[OracleofSilence]

well, since this is only core pathfinder, crusader is right out, so instead i would say something like Paladin. you can sword and board if you want, and pathfinder paladins are actually worth the lawful stupid thing. actually see if Psionics Unleashed is allowed (it is PFSRD), and if it is, play a psychic warrior or soulknife.

[MeeposFire]

I recommend ranger since you can get that shield mastery feat or the two weapon fighting feats that go with shield mastery without having to get all the prerequisites. Plus skill points rock.

[Vattic]

Thanks for the suggestions guys. I have a few things to add, and a few more questions after reading your posts.

1. I'm not going for a paladin, simply for flavor issues. I know, asking for optimization and then siding with flavor is kind of silly, but the idea behind the character is a viking-ish warrior, good with a one handed weapon and shield bash.

2. Skill points are indeed awesome, but how does a ranger fare when compared with a fighter of equal level? Can he absorb and deal as much damage as a fighter? Especially considering this is a melee build.

Thanks for your input!

Vattic.

[OracleofSilence]

he absorbs the same, d10 HP, and does better, since he as almost as many feats, favored enemy (including the insta-kill), and some buffs.

[MeeposFire]

Rangers will absorb nearly the same damage and have similar AC and damage. It will be slightly lower (emphasis on slightly) but you will be much more flexible with your choices and better with saves and against spells (you will be much better against AOE since you would have evasion and good ref saves). Spells will also give you a boost.

[Vattic]

Ok, I am listening. Let me roll stats here and see what we have to work with. One moment please.

[Vattic]

ok, so we have 12, 10, 15,15, 16, 10,16.

Not bad. I'm thinking of this type of allocation:

STR: 16 (+2 human bonus)
DEX: 16 (because of armor training, fighters do well with high dex)
CON: 15 (because hit points rule)
INT: 12 (+1 skill point per level)
WIS: 10 (will saves are nice, but this is a meat shield ultimately)
CHA: 10 ( battle scars ain't pretty)

It seems like a decent start. Shield mastery is indeed the route to pure win (seemingly), although it does require quite a heavy feat investment in order to pay off.

A human fighter of 11th level like I am planning on playing would have 13 feats. I had to stop and check my pants after that, but yeah, 13 feats. Hmmm. Shield Mastery is going to eat up 5 of those, leaving me with 8 left over to increase my versatility in combat. Seems like that is quite an advantage compared to favored enemy + an animal companion that will get smoked in 2-4 rounds.

Thoughts?

[Xtomjames]

I say, this depends on what level you're starting at again. If you get to start at level 7-11 I'd say go with rogue out of pathfinder. Ironically once you get to the 10th level you have access to some awesome stuff, you can take a beating if you do things right and deal a lot of damage. Playing a halfling will get you some fun bonuses to armor as well.

Druids in Pathfinder are also fairly rugged. While you want to do sword and shield the druids ability to buff through spells and shape shift is a very capable strategy for attacks. (See bark skin and stone skin). Best build in Pathfinder in my opinion is a Tengu Rogue.

[MeeposFire]

ok, so we have 12, 10, 15,15, 16, 10,16.

Not bad. I'm thinking of this type of allocation:

STR: 16 (+2 human bonus)
DEX: 16 (because of armor training, fighters do well with high dex)
CON: 15 (because hit points rule)
INT: 12 (+1 skill point per level)
WIS: 10 (will saves are nice, but this is a meat shield ultimately)
CHA: 10 ( battle scars ain't pretty)

It seems like a decent start. Shield mastery is indeed the route to pure win (seemingly), although it does require quite a heavy feat investment in order to pay off.

A human fighter of 11th level like I am planning on playing would have 13 feats. I had to stop and check my pants after that, but yeah, 13 feats. Hmmm. Shield Mastery is going to eat up 5 of those, leaving me with 8 left over to increase my versatility in combat. Seems like that is quite an advantage compared to favored enemy + an animal companion that will get smoked in 2-4 rounds.

Thoughts?

Or you could go ranger get shield mastery for free and spend all of your feats on what you want.

[Vattic]

I say, this depends on what level you're starting at again. If you get to start at level 7-11 I'd say go with rogue out of pathfinder. Ironically once you get to the 10th level you have access to some awesome stuff, you can take a beating if you do things right and deal a lot of damage.

Really? A rogue shield fighter? Color me intrigued. Can you expound upon this? I'm interested to see how a rogue twf compares to a fighter of the same level.

In case it's not obvious, I really, really need some help here. I've been playing D&D since the year 2000, but the trouble is that I have no head for math. So all of the very helpful calculations that one might use to arrive at a suitable build are beyond me, unless I spend a considerable amount of time learning them. At this point, I need a solid build by friday night at 6:00 pm eastern time and truth be told I'm too busy and mathematically inept to do the number crunching myself.

Flavor wise, I want to play a human fighter who specializes in using a one handed weapon and a shield. In terms of inspiration I would point to well, vikings (spear, sword, axe) , spartans (spear) and so on. If anyone is familiar with Joe Abercrombie's novels then I would say Logen NineFingers, Black Dow, and Caul Shivers come to mind as archetypes.

I'm basically hoping to build an effective tank/damage provider utilizing a shield and a one handed weapon. I am very grateful for the suggestions provided thus far, but I must admit that I find them lacking in scientific rigor. Rangers do not seem to be able to compete with the fighter for the role that I am envisioning, nor do Paladins. If someone has a specific build or the numbers to prove me wrong, I'm more than willing to listen. Until then, I honestly feel like straight fighter is the best route.

Can anyone suggest feats that might help me further the goal of being the primary damage dealer/absorber of my group?

[Vattic]

Or you could go ranger get shield mastery for free and spend all of your feats on what you want.

Thank you for your suggestions. Do you have a proposed build that I could look at? That would be very helpful.

[MeeposFire]

Thank you for your suggestions. Do you have a proposed build that I could look at? That would be very helpful.

Sure would you prefer to dual wield shields or would like to two hand a shield for better power attack damage?

[Vattic]

Sure would you prefer to dual wield shields or would like to two hand a shield for better power attack damage?

dual wielding shields does seem a bit odd, as does two handing a shield. Is there some kind of mechanical benefit to using a shield in such a manner instead of a more mundane weapon?

[Xtomjames]

Right a Rogue Shield Fighter really depends on the type of rogue you're going to play. If you're going to be a thug rogue then you can forgo two weapon fighting for example and deal with negatives for heavier armor. Taking the Shield proficiency feat you can use the largest shields gaining cover and concealment.

Using a short spear or a bastard sword (if you chose to play a Tengu) or even a long spear you become an effective fighter that can double up as the unexpected thief or lock pick.

On the reverse if you forgo the shield bit, a rogue in Pathfinder can gain enormous AC and with a high Dex score and weapon finesse you can do a great deal of damage and occupy an enemy without them actually getting to hit you. With a high enough CMB and CMD scores and acrobatics score you can tumble past baddies and uses your sneak attack. Taking Nareph Charge and Deft Strike (D&D 3.5) you can ignore armor and dex bonuses (including natural armor). Take two weapon fighting and two weapon defense and you can essentially become an extremely potent fighter class.

In regards to the fighter class, a very strong build would be again a Tengu Fighter. Since Tengu in Pathfinder are sword trained they are proficient with all sword like weapons (simple-martial-exotic) which means any weapon besides bludgeoning weapons and long range weapons. A good multiclass construction would be a Tengu Fighter Rogue. Taking a level in fighter you get the bonus feat and access to most armors and shields. The rogue boosts skills and gets you evasion and sneak attack. If your GM will allow you to gestalt your character then you can level him side by side gaining all the benefits of both classes including the bonus feats.

[MeeposFire]

dual wielding shields does seem a bit odd, as does two handing a shield. Is there some kind of mechanical benefit to using a shield in such a manner instead of a more mundane weapon?

Dual wielding spiked shields allow you to get the benefit of shield mastery on your main hand and offhand weapons which allows you to be nasty with two weapons (If you go a traditional sword and shield the shield mastery feat only applies to your shield attacks which are probably your off hand attacks which is less effective). This also lets you put all your feats into shields rather than splitting between shields and whatever your other weapon would be.

Two handing a heavy spiked shield gives you better power attack damage (since you are wielding it two handed you get +3 points of damage instead of +2). It is also less feat intensive than two weapon fighting which allows you to diversify more and to shore up your deficiencies and improve your strengths.

On both I recommend using a spiked shield with the bashing enchantment on the shield side. Assuming it works the same that will make a heavy shield a 2d6 damage weapon which is nice.

[Xtomjames]

Except dual wielding shields is problematic against people who can move around you. Shield bash is only effective as a bashing/bludgeoning weapon which many creatures are immune, and there is also the issue of lugging the second shield around. You'd also take penalties for not having a light weapon in your off hand for two weapon fighting and you'd have to take two weapon fighting and two weapon defense to make it work.

[Wagadodo]

You might consider going with the Archtype Sheild Fighter out of the Advanced Players Guide (APG). You would be giving up Armor Training, which is the one thing that would REALY hurt, but you do make it up a bit by becoming almost an even better fighter with your sheild than you do with main weapon.

With Shield Master and Shield fighter this can start to be a signficant increase the amount of to hit and damage with just the sheild. You do give up Weapon Training one, thought you do get weapon training 2 to use at 9th level.

Fighter Bonus: Bravery +3, Sheild Training +2 Hit/ +2Dmg w/ Shield, Shield Buffet Move action Combat Manuever Check for to an adjecent Enemy -2 to attack rolls against shield fighter, and -2 AC against attacts made by the sheild fighter, Weapon Training 2
1st (H) Shield Focus, (F) Improved Shield Bash, Two Weapon Fighting
2nd Power Attack
3rd Weapon Focus
4th Weapon Spec
5th Improved Bull Rush
6th Sheild Slam
7th Saving Shield (APG)
8th *Toughness*
9th *Dodge*
10th *Iron Will*
11th Shield Master

The feats with the *Feat* around them are just filler, you might have something better that fits, but that would be my suggestion. I would go with increases to your strength to maximise your CMB. You can move things around about as much as you want.

But just one persons opinion of one way to to build it.

[MeeposFire]

Except dual wielding shields is problematic against people who can move around you. Shield bash is only effective as a bashing/bludgeoning weapon which many creatures are immune, and there is also the issue of lugging the second shield around. You'd also take penalties for not having a light weapon in your off hand for two weapon fighting and you'd have to take two weapon fighting and two weapon defense to make it work.

Spiked shields deal piercing. Besides most weapons deal only one damage type so it is not unique and bludgeoning is decent type to use.

I do not understand your assertion on people moving around since spiked shields can make AoO like any other weapon.

Lugging the shield is not a big deal it is attached to you.

You take no penalties for any of that since you have the shield mastery feat and two weapon defense is useless since you already get a shield bonus to AC from the shield itself. You do need the improved shield bash feat.

[McSmack]

I'd go with straight fighter honestly, or fighter with a barbarian dip perhaps. Seems more viking-esque to have a level of barbarian in there.

Straight Fighter gets you Armor Training, which is awesome. Full movement in armor, lower armor checks and increased Max dex bonus. Throw in some Mithril Fullplate and your AC can get up there really quick.

Have you taken a look at the archetypes from the Advanced Player's Guide? The Shielded Fighter is pretty nice, also the Phalanx Fighter.

Shield Mastery + Powerattack = awesomeness.

[MeeposFire]

Shielded fighter is pretty bad actually and in fact loses the abilities that you are saying you covet. Phalanx gets one decent ability and that is at level 3. After that get out since the other stuff is probably worse than what you were going to get though this still loses the abilities that you say you like from the fighter.

Mobile fighter is decent though and might be worth looking into but even then you still are limited in what you can do outside of hitting it with your weapon.

[Vattic]

So... basically Sword and Board is not a viable option. This seems to be what I'm hearing. I'm not so much concerned if it's optimal. I mean, I'm not trying to beat the 12th level cleric in the party when it comes to usefulness. I just want to contribute meaningfully to my party while playing a concept that I think I would enjoy. :smallannoyed:

[Hiro Protagonest]

So... basically Sword and Board is not a viable option. This seems to be what I'm hearing. I'm not so much concerned if it's optimal. I mean, I'm not trying to beat the 12th level cleric in the party when it comes to usefulness. I just want to contribute meaningfully to my party while playing a concept that I think I would enjoy. :smallannoyed:

No, they're saying the shield fighter archetype is bad, because you lose armor training. :smallconfused:

[MeeposFire]

I am saying if you go fighter either stay standard or go mobile fighter and still use a shield. Best choices are dual wielding shields or using two handed heavy shield. Using a sword and shield is underwhelming but still it is better than playing something not fun if that is an issue.

I suggest ranger only because it it very close in melee effectiveness to the fighter but is much more versatile in and out of combat because of spells, skills, and certain other class features.

[ericgrau]

"You can't play what you want to play, go play a THF like everyone else" already? Well at least people can't say "ubercharger". This is pathfinder which means it's semi-core so sword-and-board is the best option for melee. It gives more damage-before-you-drop/flee than any other option, including two handed fighting. And no, your damage doesn't drop that much in exchange for defense, so ignoring such a fighter is never a good idea. Nor is wasting a precious turn, a severely limited resource in D&D, and provoking to pick another target who can probably defend himself anyway; this isn't WoW. Conversely the melee can and often does drop. Pathfinder helps even more compared to core with shield focus and a better dodge feat. Plus things like standstill to help lockdown, though again the need for such is overrated in 95% of parties.

Gear Selection: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8888911&postcount=20
Resulting Stats: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8888663&postcount=15

These assume core but you only need to make a small adjustment. You can also add combat expertise to become nearly invulnerable to weapons in exchange for some offense. Normally you wouldn't use this until you get into trouble; especially if you need your attack bonus for standstill or combat reflexes attacks of opportunity. It depends on the campaign / fight / etc. but again this isn't WoW and the need for melee to save himself because he's the one being targeted is a lot more common than people say. Depending on the campaign and how many feats you have you may want cleave (better in PF), even if you don't use power attack. Ya since this is pathfinder armor training makes a high dex useful. But put str and con first. Once you get to high levels grab an animated shield and "switch" to THF-and-board to get both styles. If all your feats are in a one-handed weapon you're only losing a couple points of damage when you THF it, so it's no big loss at high levels when you're doing a gazillion damage anyway. Maybe I'm missing something but at first glance the 2 shield specialization feats look pretty mediocre.

[Xtomjames]

Shield Mastery doesn't make you immune to two weapon fighting minuses if you intend to use the shields as weapons. Spiked shields usually only have one spike a piece and while they MAY cause piercing damage it's circumstantial and up to the DM to decided. You may be carrying it around but a shield is bloody heavy in game, and two of them are worse. There is also the issue of sundering them. A normal weapon is much harder to sunder than a shield.

While a spiked shield can make AoO they don't have reach (it's less than 5 feet even with a spiked shield) any character with a high acrobatics check can circumvent you without even provoking.

Edit: Noting that: Shield Mastery requires Improved Shield Bash, Shield Proficiency, Shield Slam, Two Weapon Fighting and a BAB of +11. The text says you then suffer no penalties on attack rolls made with a shield while you are wielding "another weapon". A spiked shield in game isn't considered a weapon its considered a protective piece even if it can cause damage (just as a normal shield) and does not under the normal rules of Pathfinder qualify for the no penalty part of this feat. (See page 133 of Pathfinder book).

[Eldariel]

This is pathfinder which means it's semi-core so sword-and-board is the best option for melee.

This takes for a lot of assumptions:
- Animated Shields aren't available. If they are, as soon as you can afford them they become the superior option with best of both worlds.
- You are mostly met with martial opponents. Two-Handing is strictly better against spellcasters because AC is not a relevant defense but extra damage increases your survivability by killing the targets faster.
- You are generally targeted over the higher offense, lower survivability types in the party without effort on your part.
- Your extra AC would save you more HP than having a reach weapon and not letting melee opponents reach you in the first place.
- You have enough wealth to invest in a relevant amount of AC (it takes close to half the default WBL to keep up, with engineered equipment).

Truth be told, S&B works in a small subset of cases; in caster-heavy campaigns it's very weak since shields don't add to your saves or touch AC, if most enemies try to take down the biggest threats first having a shield does nothing, if you could stop melee opponents from ever reaching you with a reach weapon you're losing effective HP over having more AC, if you're giving melee opponents extra turns because of decreased damage in exchange for increased AC you might be losing effective HP because opponents get extra attacks & if the campaign WBL is low you'll have to dump AC anyways meaning shield becomes waste once eclipsed by monster AB. And that's before we account for Animated Shields.

[ericgrau]

Put together a level 11 THF build, figuring out all the numbers. Every time I've done this before the sword-and-boarder sacrificed a small amount of damage for a phenomenal amount of defense, meaning niche what-if scenarios can't even begin to tip the scales since you are head and shoulders better the rest of the time for only a minimal loss there. I mean if caster-heavy campaigns were common (I never hear of monsters with levels in any class being common though), a greatsword+full plate monk would be better. I've done some rough numbers for that even. All this considers power attack, which typically decreases the damage of THF against average monster AC. I already have a build linked above, it only needs a couple feat adjustments and a wealth adjustment for PF.

Animated shield already acknowledged. You switch at that level, and keep your same feats, build, weapon, etc. with nothing lost except 2 damage. Which is nothing at high levels when you finally switch. Putting together some builds would also be nice to help guess the crossover point for animated shield. If the animated shield even comes close to the others, he might as well get it now and eat the temporary drawback.

[Cieyrin]

There's a distinct lack of Vital Strike chain in here, if for nothing else that for being able to contribute when you can't make a full attack. You have the feats to spare I'd say as a Fighter, I'd go after that.

[Eldariel]

Put together a level 11 THF build, figuring out all the numbers. Every time I've done this before the sword-and-boarder sacrificed a small amount of damage for a phenomenal amount of defense, meaning niche what-if scenarios can't even begin to tip the scales since you are head and shoulders better the rest of the time for only a minimal loss there.

What if the "rest of the time" is the niché scenario? When THF has the advantage against opponents not attacking your AC, not attacking you, and ones it can outreach but one-handing can't, what's left? When you're up against a Large martial creature whose sole focus is you, is about the only case I can come up with, and that's without access to Enlarge Person.

Against medium opponents reach weapon is hugely advantaged since you have a massive chance of never letting them even get an attack in and against larger creatures, you can avoid their AoOs. With Enlarge Person, you can outreach Large and Huge and Gargantuan Long opponents.


I mean if caster-heavy campaigns were common (I never hear of monsters with levels in any class being common though), a greatsword+full plate monk would be better. I've done some rough numbers for that even.

Defensively, yes, but not offensively. A turtle is no good and Monk's medium BAB is very painful there. By caster-heavy I don't mean just monsters with class (though those are common in all campaigns I've played, let alone humanoid-focused campaigns); campaign heavy on any SLA/SU-based creature (like many of the stronger Outsiders, many Aberrations and Undead) and creatures with native spellcasting fall there likewise. Illithid, Aboleth or Beholder-centric story for example would likely contain very few attacks compared to magic.


All this considers power attack, which typically decreases the damage of THF against average monster AC. I already have a build linked above, it only needs a couple feat adjustments and a wealth adjustment for PF.

We've been here before; if you can get a buff stack of 10 min/level and longer duration buffs and focus on improving Strength, you can Power Attack very efficiently against level appropriate opponents. If not, PA doesn't do as much. This is really solely dependent on how much wealth/magic support you have access to.

If you have a Cleric and a Wizard who are willing to, for the investment of e.g. Pearl of Powers, to throw few spells your way you're more than able to Power Attack efficiently (the big ones are Greater Magic Weapon & Heroism/equivalent, though there are of course others that could be used).


Animated shield already acknowledged. You switch at that level, and keep your same feats, build, weapon, etc. with nothing lost except 2 damage. Which is nothing at high levels when you finally switch. Putting together some builds would also be nice to help guess the crossover point for animated shield. If the animated shield even comes close to the others, he might as well get it now and eat the temporary drawback.

I still think you underestimate the power of reach in play against martial types; the potential to negate entire opponents for entire rounds with mere AoO is huge - the amount of damage you negate in the actions you deny is quite massive, especially if you manage to keep said enemies off for multiple rounds. However, it does of course make modelling such encounters with anything but actually running them rather difficult, which is always a problem when getting to more sophisticated combat theory; the number of variables begins to grow too high.

[ericgrau]

Things usually attack your AC and HP. If they didn't then the back row things have saves that are just as good as you, so why do they even need you to protect them? You play a greatsword wielding monk to protect yourself, and you will in fact be more effective. But the reality is what you are talking about is exceedingly rare. You'd have to go through great effort to even find monsters to force into a contrived scenario.

[Vattic]

Interesting discussion guys! Thanks for all of the replies.

I was thinking that if you guys knew some additional information about the game that I am in that it would help elicit more build-specific advice from the forum.

So with that goal in mind, the game I find myself in follows the Rise of the Runelords adventure path. We just finished up book 4 and are now beginning on book 5. So far we have fought a great deal of goblins, stone giants, lamias, undead and a few wizard/necromancers. The last encounter was against a creep named the "Scribbler" who promptly wrecked our party by summoning a couple of Glabrezu demons. We just barely avoided a TPK, with 2 members actually dying (one got breath of lifed) and the other two coming very very close to eating dirt as well.

We are a 4 man team, a pure cleric with the fire and healing domains, a bard/barbarian gish who is mostly bard. He is able to inspire us, cast useful spells like haste, confusion and the like, and also deal respectable damage with a great sword. The third party member is an earth focused geomancer wizard. He has some great spells, but I feel like we lag behind a standard wizard in terms of versatility.

With this group I have played a rogue/sorcerer who was quickly rendered useless due to escalating encounters and my lack of optimization. My second character was a paladin that I played for exactly 20 minutes before she was obliterated by the "Mother of Oblivion" creature encounter (confusion + massively damaging multiattacks, plus a drowning hazard = several dead characters). That encounter was also nearly a TPK. My third and most successful character thus far was a ranger focused on archery who wielded a bastard sword with both hands. Very, very effective. Unfortunately, he just bit the big one and due to his personality he would not want to be raised.

So I'm left wondering what to play. I'd love to play a witch, but that idea has been roundly poo pooed by the group, as I've been told that we really need someone to take hits and deal damage Right now the bard is the primary damage dealer of the party, and that's kind of sad. I realize that the best way to hit this goal would probably be to make use of the spirit of the beast druid build (am i wrong here?) but I'm simply not in love with the concept.

I thought that a fighter type character (again, no paladins the group hates them for some reason) who took some time to boost his defense instead of just going all out THW might be a solid choice. It seems like there is a huge amount of disagreement on these boards as to the effectiveness of that playstyle though.

So let me ask this, now that you guys know the party make up and the setting, what would your suggestions be? The role that I need to fill is one of a damage dealing, damage absorbing melee combatant.

[Wagadodo]

If you want to be a damage dealer, and damage taker think about being a Barbarian with the Drunken Brute and Invulerable Rager Rager Templates. Go with the Beast Totem Rage Powers. This allows you get the Pounce at 10th Level which never hurts.

With Drunken brute you can drink an alcoholic brevage to maintain your rage as move action that does not provoke, this also allows you to drink potions also. And at level 11 you will have 5 DR/- due to the Invulerable rager.

Go with a Falchion a high crit weapon, look at getting power attack, look at Furious Focus, Critical Focus at ninth level and Bleeding Critical at 11th... Get your Falchion Keened as soon as you can, then have fun as you make your enemies bleed... Though doesn't go very well with the whole viking theme with the weapon, but maybe flavor it up a bit. I wouldn't worry about getting weapon focus, because you probably would want to able to switch off weapons every once in a while anyways.

[ericgrau]

To save some time and gives something until someone posts or links to a build, I'll show some simpler figures. His strength is likely 16+2(race)+2(levels)+2(item) = 22. So he gets +6 damage and an extra 3 from THF. Plus 2.5 from his bigger weapon, 1.5 if he's a dwarf. About 5 damage total on top of the ~22 the one handed weapon gives. At this level power attack actually decreases damage against average monster AC. Vital strike gives another 3 damage advantage on single attacks only; maybe half of his rounds. His shield plus greater shield focus gives 6 AC. That's a minimum of 31.5% less hits taken, and more likely 60% less hits (e.g., hit on a roll of a 17, 4 out of 20, instead of an 11, 10 out of 20). So living twice as long versus dealing 1/4th more damage. Nearly every game I play in the melee can and does drop, quite often, so that's much more damage per combat by trading a small amount of damage for a huge amount of survivability. Last time I figured it out every other foe had to be a caster or SLA focused monster for the best option to switch over, and then it switches over to monk not to THF.

I'm not sure when the transition to an animated shield is but I think a +4 shield comes around level 15, so it's before that point. Maybe 13-14. Right now a +1 animated shield is an extra 12000 gold over his +2 shield, so I dunno if it's worth it to get it early.

[Vattic]

If you want to be a damage dealer, and damage taker think about being a Barbarian with the Drunken Brute and Invulerable Rager Rager Templates. Go with the Beast Totem Rage Powers. This allows you get the Pounce at 10th Level which never hurts.

With Drunken brute you can drink an alcoholic brevage to maintain your rage as move action that does not provoke, this also allows you to drink potions also. And at level 11 you will have 5 DR/- due to the Invulerable rager.

Go with a Falchion a high crit weapon, look at getting power attack, look at Furious Focus, Critical Focus at ninth level and Bleeding Critical at 11th... Get your Falchion Keened as soon as you can, then have fun as you make your enemies bleed... Though doesn't go very well with the whole viking theme with the weapon, but maybe flavor it up a bit. I wouldn't worry about getting weapon focus, because you probably would want to able to switch off weapons every once in a while anyways.

Thanks for your really great suggestions! Sadly, as much as I love the barbarian class and might want to play one, my friend who plays the Bard/Barbarian has asked me politely to not step on his toes. He rages and uses a two handed weapon, and he has stated that he'd rather I didn't take that from him. So as a friend, I am avoiding the THF barbarian route on purpose.

Basically, I can't use either the barbarian class or the paladin class. Barbarian for the reasons stated above, and Paladin because everyone in the group besides myself seems to hate them. :(

So what I'm looking for is a melee combatant who is good at tanking and fighting without going the THF route.

[MeeposFire]

Shield Mastery doesn't make you immune to two weapon fighting minuses if you intend to use the shields as weapons. Spiked shields usually only have one spike a piece and while they MAY cause piercing damage it's circumstantial and up to the DM to decided. You may be carrying it around but a shield is bloody heavy in game, and two of them are worse. There is also the issue of sundering them. A normal weapon is much harder to sunder than a shield.

While a spiked shield can make AoO they don't have reach (it's less than 5 feet even with a spiked shield) any character with a high acrobatics check can circumvent you without even provoking.

Edit: Noting that: Shield Mastery requires Improved Shield Bash, Shield Proficiency, Shield Slam, Two Weapon Fighting and a BAB of +11. The text says you then suffer no penalties on attack rolls made with a shield while you are wielding "another weapon". A spiked shield in game isn't considered a weapon its considered a protective piece even if it can cause damage (just as a normal shield) and does not under the normal rules of Pathfinder qualify for the no penalty part of this feat. (See page 133 of Pathfinder book).

Unless there are some rule I am missing that is only in Pathfinder you are messing up a slew of rules here. I will list them for you as I go.

1. Spiked shields are weapons you can find them on the weapon table here http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons . As shown light spiked shields are martial light melee weapons and heavy spiked shields are one handed martial melee weapons and both deal piercing. So your assertion that they are not weapons and that piercing damage is debatable (though I think they should be B and P like a morning star but that would be a houserule) is incorrect.

2. The shield mastery feat is designed to work with shields being used as a weapon as that is the whole point of the feat. The feat can be found here http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/shield-master-combat---final . Notice it talks about attacking with a shield. It does say you need to wield another weapon and since a spiked shield is a weapon a second shield works fine, but even if you don't count that or you want to use a heavy shield two handed then you can just wield armor spikes or spiked gauntlets which are both weapons and would fulfill the requirement. Now the feat is a bit broad in scope due to how it is written. By RAW it affects every penalty that you apply to a shield attack this includes power attack, two weapon fighting penalties, and the imp two weapon style feats. Oddly the part you don't like is the part I think they actually wanted the feat to affect, the base two weapon fighting penalties, I don't think they intended it to affect the later two weapon fighting feats or power attack but they not changed the feat so currently it does (of course there is a chance they did intend it).

3. Looking here http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/damaging-objects#TOC-Hardness you can see that a heavy steel shield and the light steel shield are both tougher than a long sword or similar weapon. As for weight yes the longsword is lighter but if weight is an issue and you can't wield two heavy shields use the quickdraw light spiked shield and it will allow you to stow your shield so it is not tiring your arm (since we are talking about a sword and board character I will assume that the other heavy shield is a constant since that is normal). So sunder the shield wins and unless you are weak in str that is still in the shields favor.

4. Spiked shields have the same reach as every other one handed martial weapons (like a longsword). Since this is a sword and board build I am not trying to get into spiked chains or polearms. In addition even on exotic weapons there is only one weapon that has the reach property on the weapon table that can make AoOs which is the spear, chain (which it lacks in the description so officially on the SRD it does not have reach but I am not sure which is the error). So your comment is really a strike against shield users in general and not against the spiked shield. If you are stuck without reach then the spiked shield is a fine weapon.

5. Your edit would imply that you are saying that the feat does absolutely nothing. The feat says "You do not suffer any penalties on attack rolls made with a shield". If you say "A spiked shield in game isn't considered a weapon its considered a protective piece even if it can cause damage (just as a normal shield) and does not under the normal rules of Pathfinder qualify for the no penalty part of this feat" then what does this feat do since you are saying the remove penalty does not apply to shields and the feat says the penalty is removed for nothing but shields?

EDIT: Also in the FAQ it even clarifies this point (despite this is not the thing I feel needs clarifying).

"Q: Does Shield Mastery remove the penalties for all attacks if you are using a non-shield weapon and a shield and two-weapon fighting? Or does it only remove the penalties for the shield attack?

A: Shield Mastery only removes the penalty for Two Weapon Fighting on the Shield Bash itself, it does not remove it for a non-Shield weapon in your other hand."

You can find it here http://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/pathfinder-faq

[gorfnab]

I don't know if this has been mentioned, in the Pathfinder Advanced Players Guide is the Phalanx Fighter variant. Just 3 levels of this allows to wield a polearm or spear with a shield. Combining this with levels of Sword and Board Ranger (also Pathfinder APG) could actually prove quite interesting.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I don't know if this has been mentioned, in the Pathfinder Advanced Players Guide is the Phalanx Fighter variant. Just 3 levels of this allows to wield a polearm or spear with a shield. Combining this with levels of Sword and Board Ranger (also Pathfinder APG) could actually prove quite interesting.

He wants to wield an axe or sword, viking type character.

[Vattic]

actually i'm open to the idea of using a spear or a glaive or something along with a shield. i'm just trying to avoid going the two handed weapon route since there is a member of my party who thinks it will step on his toes if there are two of us swinging big weapons around. even though that's not really that reasonable, i'm trying to be a good friend and let him feel special.

[Hiro Protagonest]

actually i'm open to the idea of using a spear or a glaive or something along with a shield. i'm just trying to avoid going the two handed weapon route since there is a member of my party who thinks it will step on his toes if there are two of us swinging big weapons around. even though that's not really that reasonable, i'm trying to be a good friend and let him feel special.

Then phalanx fighter is good. You can get a spear, in case you ever need to throw it, or a halberd, for extra damage and trip, or a reach weapon, so you can do both reach and melee.

[Paul H]

Hi

Or you can just go Synthesist. It's a Summoner Archetype that allows you to 'wear' and use many of your Eidolon's evolutions.

Just sorting out a basic build for you now. (Though it will probably be tweaked by others later). :P

Thanks
Paul H

[MeeposFire]

Phalanx fighter is certainly worth 3-4 levels. After that it is not worth it. On the plus side it does mean you can multiclass to get some interesting stuff. In this case shield mastery is probably not worth it since it will not help your main weapon. Notice that you do lose the better power attack returns which is unfortunate.

[Vattic]

Hi

Or you can just go Synthesist. It's a Summoner Archetype that allows you to 'wear' and use many of your Eidolon's evolutions.

Just sorting out a basic build for you now. (Though it will probably be tweaked by others later). :P

Thanks
Paul H

that sounds pretty interesting. i look forward to seeing your build, Paul!

[Paul H]

Hi

OK - Summoner(Synthesist) 11. Melee type. This is just a rough basic build - I haven't even added irems, etc, that will improve it. This is just you, in a loin cloth, wielding your grand-dad's Great Sword. (Heirloom Wpn Trait).

Your base stats (+2 for levels went into Cha)
Str 15 Dex 15 Con 16 Int 10 Wis 10 Cha 18

'Wearing' your Eidolon:
Str 22 Dec 16 Con 17 Int 10 Wis 10 CHa 18

15 Evolution Points:
2 Str +2
2 Fly (30')
2 +4 Nat Armour
2 +2 Con
2 Immunity to Fire
4 Fast Heal 1
1 Skilled (+8 Racial bonus to one skill)

In combat:

BAB +9
Attack Gt Sword (Pwr attack + Arcane Strike) +14/9
Damage Gt Sword (As above) 2d6+20 (magic & slashing)

AC 30 (+14 Nat, 3 Dex, 2 Shield, +1 Dodge)
HP: Eidolon 87 (Temp), You 102 (Total 189)

This without upgrading weapons, adding armour or spells


This only applies when you have the Eidolon summoned around you. Eidolon disapperars when you go unconcious or asleep, or Eidolon reduced to 0 HP (when you can transfer HP from yourself to it). Eidolons take 1 minute to summon.

Any questions (bound to be several), jus ask

Summoner (APG) Synthesist (Ult Magic)

Thanks
Paul H
Oh Forgot. You're a Spont Arcane caster based on Cha! :smallbiggrin:

Hi

And the feats were:

Pwr Attack, Cleave, Dodge, Arcane Strike, Toughness, Med Armour Prof (for Mithril Breastplate), Gt Cleave.

The Skilled Evolution was to add extra +8 to UMD for wands.

Arcane Strike is a swift action to allow weapons to count as magic for DR.

Specific mix of Feats/Traits/Evolutions can be changed to suit. You could even play a Gt Sword Wielding Large Dragon if you wished!

This was done late at night - so prob not most min/maxed thing I could do
Thanks
Paul H

[Lord Bingo]

I had a player field a Rogue/Fighter in full plate with a shield that was very effective so from what I read that is what I would recommend.

You get a decent damage output (from sneak attack), Great AC (especially if you take the shield feat tree), good HP (prioritize Con as your main stat and remember to take the Toughness feat), a decent number of feats, and on top of this you get a great skill set that will make you valuable outside the battlefield as well.

[Vattic]

Hi

And the feats were:

Pwr Attack, Cleave, Dodge, Arcane Strike, Toughness, Med Armour Prof (for Mithril Breastplate), Gt Cleave.

The Skilled Evolution was to add extra +8 to UMD for wands.

Arcane Strike is a swift action to allow weapons to count as magic for DR.

Specific mix of Feats/Traits/Evolutions can be changed to suit. You could even play a Gt Sword Wielding Large Dragon if you wished!

This was done late at night - so prob not most min/maxed thing I could do
Thanks
Paul H

I have to say that this build is very interesting to me. I'm excited just from reading it. I love the idea of summoning and fusing with an entity from another plane in order to beat down my enemies. The AC is, well quite insane. I'm guessing that the greatsword build that you are recommending it mechanically more sound than an unarmed/claw/natural attack build? For flavor reasons and because a pal has asked me not too, I'd like to avoid greatswording **** up if at all possible. Otherwise, I'm seriously swooning here.

Am I being Naive?

If at all possible, and I know you've already given me quite the headstart here, Paul, could I see a build using another type of weapon? Punching the hell out of things would be my preference, but I'm open to anything that isn't a greatsword. Basically, my buddy in the game uses a greatsword and he'd prefer it if i didn't :(

It's neat, I've never even looked into the summoner class before. I'm surprised that they seem so awesome. I am getting a hardcore Jo Jo's Bizarre Adventure vibe from this, which is so up my alley that I may never be able to pry it out.

A few questions,

1) Is this eidolon using a bipedal base form?

2) What kind of items should I be looking at to boost effectiveness with this build?

3) Is this love?

[MeeposFire]

As far as I can tell you could buy a monks belt and use unarmed attacks and your natural attacks. There is only one rules question for that and it is confusing due to how inconsistent PF is with unarmed attacks (which considering how bad it is in 3.5 that is saying something). The question is do the unarmed attacks you can make count as natural attacks for the purpose of the maximum natural attack limit an eidolon has?

EDIT: Wait is there a monk's belt or equivalent in PF I can't find it?

[Paul H]

Hi

The Bipedal form grant use of two claws, each doing D4+str damage. You can increase that to D6's, and add a bite attack if you wish. Oh, and you can get Wing Buffet too for your wings.

Arcane Strike affects all your weapons for 1 rnd as a swift ability.

Synthesists also have Darkvision, Evasion & Multi Attack too.

I just used that weapon becasue I have the Frenzied beserker mini from D&D mini set. Could just as well be Bastard Sword, Falchion or Gt Axe if you wish. (Falchion does less damage, but has greater 'threat' range). You could also play a Half Orc using a Gt Axe if your prefer.

Thanks
Paul H
PS I'm using a 2nd lvl Human Synthesist in Pathfinder Society

Hi

Just remembered - Elven Curved Blade.

2H weapon, can be used with Wpn Finesse. Does D10 damage, and has threat range 18-20 (x2). So crit does 2D10 + 40 damage with that build.

Proficiency isn't a problem, since Heirloom Weapon grants proficiency, upgrades weapon to Master Crafted at no extra cost, as well as extra +1 trait bonus to hit.

Silversheen (Qadira book, Pg 25) adds 750GP to cost of metal weapon, (and is master-crafted). Grants weapon total immunity to acid & rust.
(I'd delay getting Trait until you could afford the extra 750gp for this weapon, then make it +1/Holy ,or something).

Thanks
Paul H

Hi

@ Meepo Yes - your claw attacks do count towards your max/rnd.

But at 11th lvl you have max 5 attacks/rnd, so 2 x claws, plus 2 x wing buffets plus bite. If you chose those Evolutions).

One option is to choose the Quadraped Base Form, and become a Dragon.

As for equipment, any stat increasing item, bracers of armour, etc are useful. They work on you even with the Eidolon up, since you 'share' spells.

There is a debate re whether you get the armour bonus for wearing armour with the Eidolon as a Synthesist, so it's better just to cast Mage Armour, plus shield to increase AC. (You already got a +2 Shield AC, so Shield Spell only replaces that to grant +4 instead. Ie extra +2 total).

With both Mage Armour & Shield spells running your AC is 36. You can also cast Evolution Surge tree of spells that grant even more evolutions for 1 min/CL

Thanks
Paul H
Edit: And you can still self-buff, cast Glitterdust, Haste, Gtr Invis, etc in this form. as an 11th lvl Summoner) :smallbiggrin::smallcool:

Hi

OOps - sory Vattic. Yes, this is a Bipedal form.

Thanks
Paul H

[MeeposFire]

Hi

@ Meepo Yes - your claw attacks do count towards your max/rnd.

But at 11th lvl you have max 5 attacks/rnd, so 2 x claws, plus 2 x wing buffets plus bite. If you chose those Evolutions).

One option is to choose the Quadraped Base Form, and become a Dragon.

As for equipment, any stat increasing item, bracers of armour, etc are useful. They work on you even with the Eidolon up, since you 'share' spells.

There is a debate re whether you get the armour bonus for wearing armour with the Eidolon as a Synthesist, so it's better just to cast Mage Armour, plus shield to increase AC. (You already got a +2 Shield AC, so Shield Spell only replaces that to grant +4 instead. Ie extra +2 total).

With both Mage Armour & Shield spells running your AC is 36. You can also cast Evolution Surge tree of spells that grant even more evolutions for 1 min/CL

Thanks
Paul H
Edit: And you can still self-buff, cast Glitterdust, Haste, Gtr Invis, etc in this form. as an 11th lvl Summoner) :smallbiggrin::smallcool:

I know that claws would count I am asking about unarmed attacks, you know punching, kicking, and head butting are examples. So does punching count as a natural attack for an eidolon?

[Gavinfoxx]

What's wrong with two handing a shield? Google "German Dueling Shield" for a specialized type of two handed spiked dueling shield...

[Midnight_v]

Hi.
I know I'm coming into this a day late, sorry about that, I just got back from vacatio and was flying since about noon yesterday, then had to work.
I digress...

Might I suggest the pathfinder psychic warrior?

The reason I say this is because all of your desription of party make up and desired role really lead me to believe this is right up you alley. No offense to the wear your creation buid which is nice but that is the furthest thing from what you orginally envision possible, but at least with the psywar you can be a spartan AND secretly possess the ability to wig out and grow claws etc if you get bored.

I was a fan of the original and this one is actually better, and seems to meet all the objectives you request, while never being too wierd, or stepping on toes.
I'll submit a build if you're actually interested. The pathfinder Psywar is the thing about that system that tends to make me go "Okay, okay, you got that so correct... you might pull me in"

Also it lets you "tank" in a way only few character in D&D can do, if you can't play the crusader, I've often suggested the original.
Let me know.

[Paul H]

Hi

@ Meepos

I would suggest it's an either/or situation.

The restriction only applies to Nat attacks, NOT the Monk attacks, like Flurry, etc.

But why mix Monk levels into a Synthesist build? Synthesists have (slightly) limited spellcasting as it is. I wouldn't normally weaken that further.

As for rules - I'm a player who loves spellcasting classes. I'm not Paizo staff or anything....

Thanks
Paul H

[MeeposFire]

Perhaps you like it better than the other PF classes since the psywar was not made by the people who did Pathfinder. Also I like the psywar as well especially with warmind.

Does anybody else think that when you summon your eidolon that is like power rangers? Make your Eidolon a glorified mastadon and say "ITS MORPHING TIME: MASTADON!" and turn into the black ranger.

[Vattic]

Hi.
I know I'm coming into this a day late, sorry about that, I just got back from vacatio and was flying since about noon yesterday, then had to work.
I digress...

Might I suggest the pathfinder psychic warrior?

The reason I say this is because all of your desription of party make up and desired role really lead me to believe this is right up you alley. No offense to the wear your creation buid which is nice but that is the furthest thing from what you orginally envision possible, but at least with the psywar you can be a spartan AND secretly possess the ability to wig out and grow claws etc if you get bored.

I was a fan of the original and this one is actually better, and seems to meet all the objectives you request, while never being too wierd, or stepping on toes.
I'll submit a build if you're actually interested. The pathfinder Psywar is the thing about that system that tends to make me go "Okay, okay, you got that so correct... you might pull me in"

Also it lets you "tank" in a way only few character in D&D can do, if you can't play the crusader, I've often suggested the original.
Let me know.
I'd be happy to consider any build that you might have to offer. My only question is, where are the rules for psionic characters? Are they pathfinder rules or 3rd party? I'm asking because I've honestly never seen them, and I fell that sticking as close to core as possible is the best bet for me in this particular group.

I thank you for taking the time to help out a fellow gamer :biggrin:

[Hiro Protagonest]

Hi

The Bipedal form grant use of two claws, each doing D4+str damage. You can increase that to D6's, and add a bite attack if you wish. Oh, and you can get Wing Buffet too for your wings.

Arcane Strike affects all your weapons for 1 rnd as a swift ability.

Synthesists also have Darkvision, Evasion & Multi Attack too.

I just used that weapon becasue I have the Frenzied beserker mini from D&D mini set. Could just as well be Bastard Sword, Falchion or Gt Axe if you wish. (Falchion does less damage, but has greater 'threat' range). You could also play a Half Orc using a Gt Axe if your prefer.

Thanks
Paul H
PS I'm using a 2nd lvl Human Synthesist in Pathfinder Society


Hi

Just remembered - Elven Curved Blade.

2H weapon, can be used with Wpn Finesse. Does D10 damage, and has threat range 18-20 (x2). So crit does 2D10 + 40 damage with that build.

Proficiency isn't a problem, since Heirloom Weapon grants proficiency, upgrades weapon to Master Crafted at no extra cost, as well as extra +1 trait bonus to hit.

Silversheen (Qadira book, Pg 25) adds 750GP to cost of metal weapon, (and is master-crafted). Grants weapon total immunity to acid & rust.
(I'd delay getting Trait until you could afford the extra 750gp for this weapon, then make it +1/Holy ,or something).

Thanks
Paul H


Hi

@ Meepo Yes - your claw attacks do count towards your max/rnd.

But at 11th lvl you have max 5 attacks/rnd, so 2 x claws, plus 2 x wing buffets plus bite. If you chose those Evolutions).

One option is to choose the Quadraped Base Form, and become a Dragon.

As for equipment, any stat increasing item, bracers of armour, etc are useful. They work on you even with the Eidolon up, since you 'share' spells.

There is a debate re whether you get the armour bonus for wearing armour with the Eidolon as a Synthesist, so it's better just to cast Mage Armour, plus shield to increase AC. (You already got a +2 Shield AC, so Shield Spell only replaces that to grant +4 instead. Ie extra +2 total).

With both Mage Armour & Shield spells running your AC is 36. You can also cast Evolution Surge tree of spells that grant even more evolutions for 1 min/CL

Thanks
Paul H
Edit: And you can still self-buff, cast Glitterdust, Haste, Gtr Invis, etc in this form. as an 11th lvl Summoner) :smallbiggrin::smallcool:


Hi

OOps - sory Vattic. Yes, this is a Bipedal form.

Thanks
Paul H

You do know there is an edit button, right? :smallconfused:

[MeeposFire]

I'd be happy to consider any build that you might have to offer. My only question is, where are the rules for psionic characters? Are they pathfinder rules or 3rd party? I'm asking because I've honestly never seen them, and I fell that sticking as close to core as possible is the best bet for me in this particular group.

I thank you for taking the time to help out a fellow gamer :biggrin:

The psionic rules are oddly 3rd party made BUT OFFICIAL since the PF guys hates psionics they did not want to make them and so they let Dreamscarred press do it. They are official. You can also find them on the PF SRD found here

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes

Go there and you will see the classes. The rules are mostly the same as 3.5 so if you know 3.5 psionics you should know these for the most part.

[Paul H]

Hi

Yes.
1) I used it a few times.
2) There were other posts between mine.
3) It would make my posts too long, probably 'timing out' before I could even reply.
4) More importantly - it's gone 2.00am here! :P

Thanks, and 'night all
Paul H

[Hiro Protagonest]

3) It would make my posts too long, probably 'timing out' before I could even reply.

What? Your posts weren't even close to the maximum characters! Go look in the homebrew section if you want to see long posts.

[Midnight_v]

Oh... in the pathfidner srd of course.

Pathfinder SRD Psionics Unleashed (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed)

Pathfinder's Psychic Warrior (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/psychic-warrior)

Pathfinder Psychic Warrior Powers. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/power-list-psychic-warrior)

and... I'm going to suggest playing one of these instead of a base human,
Half-Giant (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/races/half-giant)
which might make for an interesting background considering rise of the rune lords. I kept wondering what possesed me to buy the Hook mountain, part of that path when I don't play pathfinder and really had no use for it. :amused:
come to find out it was providence for helping someone else one day.
Thing about half giants is that they are NOT half-giant in pathfinder... at all!
They're "giant-blooded" if anything and thats awesome...
Here's the awesome excerpt, and the reason a one of would them would fit so well in the Runelord story:
From pathfinder system reference document, halfgiant:

Far back in their ancient history, half-giants were slaves to some form of king.(Midnight_v's note: See the mysterious "Rune Lord". Their stories vary from tribe to tribe, but their former status as slaves is one thread that is common in the lore of every half-giant tribe. As slaves, they fought their oppressors and earned their freedom. As a result, nothing is more important to half-giants than their liberty. They will fight and even kill to stay free, and few things are capable of breaking a half-giant’s will to live like slavery. Indeed, most half-giants would prefer to commit suicide rather than face incarceration or enslavement. For these reasons, most half-giants tend to be law-abiding and respectful, but they can have a tendency to solve problems by resorting to violence rather than risk being apprehended.
So yeah you're descended from a survivor of the lost tribe or maybe your father or mother was a "pretty big dude" no one knew why cept him or he joined the village when he was a young man, after being found wounded in the foothills of the mountains. Or maybe thats your story... either way someone in your immidiate ancestry was on of these guys or you are one of these guys who escaped whatever thing was going on in further in the mountains, or you're the last of these guys. . . that you know of.
It will really be awesome as you go into the hook mountain massacre.

This is my 2c. I don't know lots about pathfinder but I have lots of resources online to crank out a psywar build that I can convert by likely tommorow.
Level 5 you say? Do you need the whole build progression to 20 or will like up to 11 or 12 work?

[Paul H]

Hi

Mongoose - what's your problem?

It's not the length of the thread so much, as the time it takes to type it. I have a form of Dyslexia that results in different characters being used than I thought I typed. So more time spent correcting spellingthan posting.

Sorry wee're not perfect - but I think enthusiasts exchanging ideas is far more important than editorial formatting. This is a Forum NOT the Oxford English Dictionary.

And personally - I don't use the Homebrew section.

(Not) Thanks
Paul H
PS Mongross - these threads aren't about winning or losing, they're about ideas.

[BillyBobJoe]

Hi

Mongoose - what's your problem?

It's not the length of the thread so much, as the time it takes to type it. I have a form of Dyslexia that results in different characters being used than I thought I typed. So more time spent correcting spellingthan posting.

Sorry wee're not perfect - but I think enthusiasts exchanging ideas is far more important than editorial formatting. This is a Forum NOT the Oxford English Dictionary.

And personally - I don't use the Homebrew section.

(Not) Thanks
Paul H
PS Mongross - these threads aren't about winning or losing, they're about ideas.

... He never mentioned your spelling, or anything, he was just wondering why you didn't consolidate your responses into one post by editing them in to the primary post. I am sorry if you took offense at this, but he wasn't trying to be rude at all and you're getting angry at him for it. You could type in all lowercase letters and misspell every single word, and people wouldn't get angry, especially if you told them you have a form of Dyslexia. It is just sort of odd to make separate posts after the fact about the same thing rather than use the edit button to post you response afterwards.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

Someone mentioned a shield using rogue, something I'd like to say i've somewhat mastered. Basically, i feel shield rogues are the most fun.

things you need:

Masterwork Buckler
Rapier
Wand Bracer ( Dungeonscape, 300gp)
Wand Chambers (Dungeonscape 150gp)
A pile of useful but low level wands.


What to Do:

Wield your rapier and masterwork buckler. though rogues do not have shield proficiency, the only penalty for using a shield without proficiency is the check penalty to attack... and a masterwork buckler has no check penalty.

put wands into your wand Bracer, which you should wear on your buckler arm. the Wand Bracer will allow you to "hold" 5 wands, which can be accessed via a swift action; the chosen wand will fall into your empty hand. (recall you are using a buckler, which leaves your hand free.)

Put the most 2 most useful wands into the wand chambers that you got installed; one into your rapier, the other into your buckler. Those two wands are considered in your hands, plus the one you can actually have in your hand via the wand bracer.

IF you dip into an magic using class, you can use any spell on their spell list as a wand without making a Use Magic Device check. Wizard is usually favored for this, and Cleric is also a good choice.

If you dont want to lose any Attack Bonus or Sneak attack, prestiging out in to 3.5 Assassin is a good idea, with a quick and to the point spell list. 3.5 Assassin is better than most people say, just don't worry about optimizing Death Attack.

There are also some calculations on this forum somewhere, that show that buckler rogues are more survivable than TWF rogues, at least until around level 10 ish. However, i feel that they remain viable longer due to the versatility of quick wand access, and perhaps a small spell list.

[MeeposFire]

That will be expensive though if you are using wands often and if you are not you are not getting much from the wands. I can see how that could be useful though.

[Hiro Protagonest]

You can't shield bash with a buckler.

[Cieyrin]

You can't shield bash with a buckler.

I don't think the buckler rogue build was about shield bashing, actually. If we wanted to integrate that, though, we could switch over to a masterwork light shield, which also doesn't have an ACP and only precludes weapons, which a wand technically is not. Put some spikes on it and we're in business! :smallsmile:

[Wagadodo]

So no go on the Barb build.

This one won't be much of damage taker, but could be a damage dealer, and you will be going into it at the right time. It is not a high tier but it can be a spikey in damage.

Take the half elf take the racial substitution that allows you take exotic weapon instead of skill focus.

Switch your Dex and intelligence around in your stat selection.

Take Bladebound archetype for the free magical weapon. Which would give you a free +3 I suggest Bastard Sword.

You will be in medium Armor, with Spell strike be like you are hitting like a two weapon fighting.

Here is a good thread describing it.
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderRPG/advice/waltersGuideToTheMagus

And here is a good guide for it.

http://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1DB6sOfbAzFmKVPgcyLWipTVqvWFjfDSv6v_YiGQb5Y w

[stack]

This thread has inspired me to make a sword and board ranger next time I find a Pathfinder game. Getting shield mastery at 6 would be perfect for an E6 game, no one else could have it.

[BillyBobJoe]

I played a Sword and Board Ranger last game (in pathfinder), and it was much fun. I took Combat Reflexes, Saving Shield, and Bodyguard, so I could pump everybody's AC up.

[Paul H]

Hi

So, Vattic. made any decisions yet?

Friend of mine's got a Sword & Board Dwarf Fighter, with Shield Focus, Shield bash etc.

So many choices, so little time :P

Thanks
Paul H

[Wagadodo]

I really don't think you would be missing out on very much by going with the sword and board build that I posted before. You could be bull rushing folks towards your Barbard friend so he can take attacks of oppurnity against them after you have already whacked them with your sheild. Yes, you would be losing some Reflex save by not being able to bump up your dex up, but with a Breastplate you will have +9 to your AC before enhancements anyways. The movement lost of 10 might hurt a bit more, but typically it gets to the point unless you are starting your fights at great distances it won't matter much.

And I just noticed something for the first time ever for pathfinder off their official SRD you can make shield a Magic Weapon in its own right.. WITHout having to add the Spike, I wonder, if adding the spike should make the shield P/B... Anyways. Specialize in the Heavy Shield Hit people upside the head with it, push people around, carry around a short with your main weapon. And go to town.

Just add Improved Bull Rush as the 9th Level Feat and take out dodge. +2 From the Shield Bonus for the Shield Fighter, +2 From the shield, +4 Feats, +11 From Fighter, At least +3 From Str... +22 CMB To Bull Rush some with your shield. Now that is the very minumum with out adding any other magic items or strength increases due to levels.

[Cieyrin]

The weaponizing shield thing has been around since 3rd, and is equally forgotten. If the creators had any brains, they'd have made adding spikes make shields do both bludgeoning and piercing, like a morningstar. But yes, normal shields can be weapons without spikes and magicked as such. Most people don't due to the damage increase, so it gets overlooked.

[Lord Bingo]

A word of warning regarding the Summoner:

I DM a campaign where one of my players started out as a Summoner and played him for quite a while. He was fairly effective -or rather his Eidolon was fairly effective, and therein resided the problem: After a while it became frustrating to the player that it was his summoned creature rather than the character himself who was a badass.

I am sure not everybody will feel this way, but before you commit to playing a Summoner consider carefully if you can live with playing the second violin to your summoned pet.

[MeeposFire]

A word of warning regarding the Summoner:

I DM a campaign where one of my players started out as a Summoner and played him for quite a while. He was fairly effective -or rather his Eidolon was fairly effective, and therein resided the problem: After a while it became frustrating to the player that it was his summoned creature rather than the character himself who was a badass.

I am sure not everybody will feel this way, but before you commit to playing a Summoner consider carefully if you can live with playing the second violin to your summoned pet.

I doubt it will be a problem in this case since he is playing the build where the summoner wears the eidolon as a coat as a buff. So this summoner won't be playing second banana but will be playing a psuedo power ranger (you strike a pose and call upon your power transforming into a powerful warrior).

[Paul H]

Hi

A Synthesist doesn't have a summoned pet. The Synthesist IS the summoned pet!

But the point of flexibilty is a good one. Whilst in Synthesist form your HP/Attacks/AC/HP will outshine any Fighter/Barbarian, (though NOT their battle skills & extra combat feats).

It's when you get caught in middle of night, and you don't have full round to summon your Eidolon that matters. Then you have to rely on your ability to summon monsters as a standard (not full round) action. They also last for 1 min/lvl. (Normal 1 rnd/lvl).

Your own playstyles/flavour is what's important. If you like Dwarven tanks, plenty of builds for those too.

Just have fun.

Thanks
Paul H
PS Druids are normally 2nd Fiddle to their Animal Companions in both PF & 3.5.
Edit: As Meeposfire said
PPS Synthesists can play very good anvils to Rogues Hammer with TWF/Wpn Finesse/lots sneak attack damage
@ Swift mongoose: Yes they do, but Animal Companions are awesome, I'd rather they take risks & me buff/heal, than me take damage. (I normally fly up & Call Lightening from above)

[Hiro Protagonest]

PS Druids are normally 2nd Fiddle to their Animal Companions in both PF & 3.5.

What? How? Druids get full casting and wild shape.

[Midnight_v]

Hmm... the more I look at it the more I wonder, am i supposed to just submit a build? Or are we still just discussing?

I have a really good idea for Wow style tanking but you don't actually "bash" with your shield, the shield would end up more for its defensive enchancements.

[ericgrau]

I know if I'm making a character I love seeing builds. I might totally ignore someone's suggestion to play X exact build but you better believe I'll be stealing ideas here and their from his build. So it couldn't hurt. Well except for the time you put in.

[BenInHB]

What about a character that uses a Shield and Short Spear, Javelin or Throwing Axes?? Use the thrown weapon at range and two hand the shield in Melee for the bonus to damage from STR and Power Attack.

Sort of like a beefier version of your switch hitter Ranger.

[Vattic]

Hmm... the more I look at it the more I wonder, am i supposed to just submit a build? Or are we still just discussing?

I have a really good idea for Wow style tanking but you don't actually "bash" with your shield, the shield would end up more for its defensive enchancements.

yes, please! i'd love to see any and all builds still.

i posted some stats earlier in the thread so if you could use those that would be fantastic. i will admit, the summoner idea is really intriguing but if you guys have some sword and board/spear builds i'm still very much open to seeing them.

i was out of town for a few days, so i apologize for the lack of feedback. i'll read back through the thread right after i finish typing this.

thanks for all of your suggestions, folks!

[Vattic]

I just wanted to let everyone who helped out in this thread know that I'm going with the synthesist summoner after all. It really came down to the fact that I fell in love with the class (hadn't really looked at summoner before) and that it fulfills the roles that my party needs most right now better than the sword and board builds that I was looking at.

Thank you guys for all of your helpful suggestions and ideas!

[Vattic]

Ok, I checked the rules, and this isn't quite a necro!

So! I played the character finally, and it was mechanically fun to play. I'm struggling with the roleplaying aspects, but so far he is very effective.

I ended up playing a synthesist summoner with a large bipedal eidolon. I picture the eidolon as looking a lot like this guy stun in his beast form from the bloody roar video games (basically a giant beetle-zord).

Tanking is hard, even with the metric $#!+ ton of HP I have split up between myself and the eidolon. I tried fighting a few things all armored up, it went well but I took a lot of damage. Even with a 30 AC at 11th level the giants that I was fighting had a huge attack bonus. I switched it up and summoned some anklosaurs next and dismissed my eidolon. That worked really well too, except that they blocked my line of sight and I spent a few rounds twiddling my thumbs.

Anyway, I just wanted to give an update and thank everyone for their suggestions. I really appreciate the help! :smallbiggrin: