Epic feats pre-epic

[ImperatorK]

It wouldn't tip the balance too much, would it? I mean, if anything, it would probabely help melee. And most of caster feats are either still not available before 20 level or don't really matter that much power-wise.

[Lateral]

As long as Epic Spellcasting still can't be gotten before epic, then I don't see why not, although some prerequisites will need changing.

[Malimar]

I think that was pretty much the consensus the last time this question came up. Some of them are just more powerful versions of non-epic feats, and those should probably have prerequisites (even though even the epic versions are frequently not really worth taking, even without prereqs).

In my game, I allow a character to take any [epic] feat for which they meet the prerequisites (aside from the "must be epic level" prereq), and I add new prerequisites to the following feats:

Feat - Prerequisite
Armor Skin - Improved Toughness, Con 21
Epic Fortitude - Great Fortitude
Epic Prowess - Greater Weapon Focus with any weapon, proficient with any Exotic weapon
Epic Reflexes - Lightning Reflexes
Epic Reputation - Negotiator, Persuasive, Cha 21
Epic Toughness - Improved Toughness
Epic Will - Iron Will

[OracleofSilence]

it seems fine and as you said, it should help melee. basically, it just makes fighters a little less sucky

[Dusk Eclipse]

I agree that most feats would be better for melee; for example Blinding Speed (IIRC) gives non-magical haste for some rounds a day. Most melees would like stuff like that.

[ImperatorK]

Exactly my point. :smalltongue:

[Dusk Eclipse]

Then I would say yes; but perhaps going on a case by case basis for each feat.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

A note: it is entirely possible via a couple of dirty tricks to legally take epic level feats at 18th level (some, sooner, I imagine). Yes, this does include even Epic Spellcasting, but that one generally would require kobold shenanigans.

[Jack_Simth]

It wouldn't tip the balance too much, would it? I mean, if anything, it would probabely help melee. And most of caster feats are either still not available before 20 level or don't really matter that much power-wise.

*most* of it isn't too bad. However, some questions pop up: What do you do with skill rank requirements? Do the assorted feats which have skill requirements go down (e.g., Bane of Enemies - Survival 24 ranks)? Do the assorted feats that require a particular level of spell access go down (E.g., Automatic Quicken Spell)?

Then, however, there are the ones that get bad - Epic Spellcasting being the obvious one, but Permanent Emanation could get bad too.

[Xtomjames]

My answer is simple, limit the number of times a specific epic feat can be used per day based on how far apart the actual requirements are from what the character has. For example say you wanted to take Improved Two Weapon Fighting, if you have all the prerequisites except for level then take the number of levels until you'd be eligible to take the feat and that's the number of times per day it can be applied. This works for things like epic ability scores as well. A person can choose when to apply an epic score gained through an epic feat. If there is a skill prereq based it on the difference in score. I wouldn't allow epic feats that the person is too far away from, say no more than 10 skill ranks in difference.

Bear in mind some feats don't have a level prerequisite, like Craft Artifact.

[Lonely Tylenol]

As long as other prerequisites aren't changed. Epic Metamagic (or whatever it's called) has a Spellcraft (30 ranks) requirement for good reason - it shouldn't be taken before level 27, ever.

[Jack_Simth]

take the number of levels until you'd be eligible to take the feat and that's the number of times per day it can be appliedUmm...

So if you're 10th level, and have a feat that would require you to be 21st, normally, you can use it 11 times per day. Three levels later, you're 13th, the feat would require you to be 21st, so now you can only use it 8 times per day?

I suspect you misspoke somewhere....

[Hiro Protagonest]

Umm...

So if you're 10th level, and have a feat that would require you to be 21st, normally, you can use it 11 times per day. Three levels later, you're 13th, the feat would require you to be 21st, so now you can only use it 8 times per day?

I suspect you misspoke somewhere....

Yeah, this is odd logic.

Edit:
Bear in mind some feats don't have a level prerequisite, like Craft Artifact.
If it has the [epic] tag, you have to be 21st level or higher.

[Flickerdart]

Many Epic feats have later been reprinted as non-epic. Pounce, for example, can now be got 20 levels earlier, and used every round. The ELH came way too early in 3.5's lifespan for WotC to really know what they were doing with it.

[Xtomjames]

Actually its not odd logic, because the higher the level you get the more things fill in the gap of less uses until you reach 21st level. Look at the purpose of an epic level feat at a low level, its there to boost the player's power. So as the character levels that boost isn't as necessary.

Not all epic level feats have the epic descriptor. For example, Craft Artifact is technically an "epic" level feat as it is designated as a deific or godly feat. However some characters meet all the prereqs even though they're not gods. Such as Artificers.

In fact the general rule is that if a feat, even one found in the Epic Level Handbook doesn't explicitly say "level 21 or higher" and you meet the prereqs you should be able to take it.

[Douglas]

Craft Artifact (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#craftArtifact) is a Salient Divine Ability, not a feat. SDAs are granted by Divine Ranks and nothing else. Not even epic characters, no matter how high level they are, can take it without having divine rank.

[Xtomjames]

I've seen it as a feat, as well as a Salient Divine Ability. It exists in several books. Also notably, Craft Artifact doesn't list as a prerequisite (unlike all the other Salient Divine Abilities) a divine rank level. This again means its not limited to just deities.

[BillyBobJoe]

I've seen it as a feat, as well as a Salient Divine Ability. It exists in several books. Also notably, Craft Artifact doesn't list as a prerequisite (unlike all the other Salient Divine Abilities) a divine rank level. This again means its not limited to just deities.

Except no:


Prerequisite
A minimum divine rank, minimum ability score, another salient divine ability, a minimum base attack bonus, a feat, a skill, or some other condition that a deity must have in order to acquire this salient divine ability. This entry is absent if a salient divine ability has no prerequisite. An ability may have more than one prerequisite. All salient divine abilities have a minimum prerequisite of divine rank 1. Quasi-deities (rank 0) have no salient divine abilities.

[herrhauptmann]

I've seen it as a feat,

Where have you seen it as a feat?
The SDA section resembles the feat section in layout, and in the SRD, they're on the same url... But SDAs are at the top of the page, feats are towards the bottom below Feats

Easiest way to get epic feats (at least those that don't have skill requirements) that I know of is the dragonwrought kobold trick. Age him to venerable, and suddenly he's allowed to take feats with the [EPIC] tag. Though he still has to meet other prereqs like stats.

And if it's that simple to get epic feats, I don't think it's an issue for melee to get them sooner. Especially since some, like Sneak Attack of Opportunity have already been reprinted as non-epic feats in Dragon Magazine (i think).
Something like 1/day below level 15.
At level 15: 1/encounter and Level 16 2/encounter, etc Sort of like using a martial maneuver as a non-ToB class.

[Flickerdart]

I can confirm that "Artifact" does not appear in any first party 3.5 feat.

[Douglas]

I've seen it as a feat, as well as a Salient Divine Ability. It exists in several books. Also notably, Craft Artifact doesn't list as a prerequisite (unlike all the other Salient Divine Abilities) a divine rank level. This again means its not limited to just deities.
Whether it has a divine rank prerequisite isn't really relevant - the fact that it's an SDA means you can't buy it with a feat slot because it's not a feat. You have to get an SDA slot, and the only thing that gives those is divine rank.