0 LA Dragon Race for Player Characters (PEACH)

[NeoSeraphi]

Because dragons are awesome and the Draconomicon imposes ridiculous LA on them.

This race has abilities that scale. These abilities do not scale with dragon Racial HD, they scale with class levels. The weakened dragon advances by class levels. Weakened dragons often take levels of sorcerer or cleric, though the more martially-inclined ones often become paladins of Bahamut or Tiamat.

The Dragon

Regardless of a Dragon's Color/Metal, all dragons have the following characteristics:

Type: Dragon (Weakened)

The Weakened subtype applies to a creature who is forcibly increasing its power through experience rather than age. A creature with the weakened subtype must be 21st level before it can take Epic feats, regardless of its type. A weakened creature also ages normally, taking penalties to its physical ability scores regardless of its type.

Darkvision 60' and Lowlight vision

Size: The dragon's size grows as it gains class levels, rather than through aging.

Size at 1st Level: Small
Size at 6th Level: Medium
Size at 11th Level: Large
Size at 16th Level: Huge
Size at 21st Level: Gargantuan
Size at 26th Level: Colossal
Size at 31st Level: Colossal+

(The above sizes apply even to dragons who normally have a maximum size category of Gargantuan)

Racial Adjustments: +2 Strength, -2 Dexterity
Every time the creature increases in Size, it receives half the ability score bonuses for increasing Size as described in the Monster Manual, but the full ability score penalties.

+2 Natural Armor

Speed:

Speed at Small: 20 ft land, no fly speed
Speed at Medium: 30 ft land, no fly speed
Speed at Large: 40 ft land, 80 ft fly with average maneuverability
Speed at Huge: 60 ft land, 120 ft fly with average maneuverability
Speed at Gargantuan: 80 ft land, 160 ft fly with poor maneuverability
Speed at Colossal: 100 ft land, 200 ft fly with clumsy maneuverability

Natural Weapons:
Though the dragons deal normal damage with their weapons, weakened dragons acquire their natural weapons later than normal dragons. A dragon with multiple natural attacks may choose its primary natural attack whenever it declares an attack roll, however, a dragon's wings are always treated as a secondary natural attack.

A dragon's claws are so unwieldy that the dragon is not able to hold a weapon or shield in them (regardless of proficiencies) until it reaches Medium size. A dragon cannot wear armor. The dragon also suffers a 10% arcane spell failure chance for spells with somatic components until it reaches Medium size, because its fingers are not full formed into claws yet.

Small: Bite 1d6
Medium: Bite 1d8, Claws 1d6
Large: Bite 2d6, Claws 1d8, Wings 1d6
Huge: Bite 2d8, Claws 2d6, Wings 1d8, Tail Slap 2d6
Gargantuan: Bite 4d6, Claws 2d8, Wings 2d6, Tail Slap 2d8, Crush 4d6
Colossal: Bite 4d8, Claws 4d6, Wings 2d8, Tail Slap 4d6, Crush 4d8, Tail Sweep 2d8
Colossal+: Bite 6d8, Claws 4d8, Wings 4d6, Tail Slap 4d8, Crush 6d8, Tail Sweep 4d6

Resistances and Immunities:
Small: +2 bonus on saving throws versus magical sleep
Medium: Immunity to magical sleep
Large: Immunity to magical sleep, +2 bonus versus paralysis
Huge: Immunity to sleep, +4 bonus versus paralysis
Gargantuan: Immunity to sleep, immunity to paralysis

DR:
A dragon receives Damage Reduction X/Magic, where X is 5*the number of size categories the creature is Larger than Medium. When a dragon reaches Gargantuan size, the DR changes to DR X/Epic.

Changes from True Dragons:
Weakened Dragons do not receive sorcerer casting unless from actual class levels.
Weakened Dragons do not receive spell resistance.
Weakened Dragons do not receive blindsense.
Weakened Dragons do not receive Frightful Presence.
Weakened Dragons do not receive spell-like abilities.
Weakened Dragons do not receive a swim speed or a burrow speed, regardless of their color.

Breath Weapon:
A dragon chooses its element when it is created. Once chosen, this choice cannot be changed. The choices are acid, fire, cold, and electricity. The dragon also chooses whether it breathes in a cone or a line.

The dragon's breath weapon functions like a normal dragon's. It is a supernatural ability usable as a standard action at will, but the dragon must wait 1d4 rounds between uses of its weapon. This breath weapon allows the dragon to qualify for Metabreath feats. (See the Draconomicon) The breath weapon allows a Reflex saving throw for half damage. The DC for the saving throw is 10+1/2 the dragon's character level+the dragon's Constitution modifier. A dragon without a Constitution score cannot use its breath weapon.

Small: 1d8, 15 ft cone, 30 ft line
Medium: 3d8, 20 ft cone, 40 ft line
Large: 5d8, 30 ft cone, 60 ft line
Huge: 7d8, 40 ft cone, 80 ft line
Gargantuan: 10d8, 60 ft cone, 120 ft line
Colossal: 15d8

Elemental Resistance and Weakness:
A dragon receives a bonus against the element of its breath weapon, and weakness against the opposing element. (Fire and cold are opposed, as are acid and electricity)
Small: Resist 5, +1 damage per die opposing
Medium: Resist 10, +1 damage die of opposing
Large: Resist 20, damage die of opposing increase by one step to a maximum of d12
Huge: Immunity, Gains the Fire/Cold/Air/Earth subtype, +50% extra damage from the opposing element

Favored Class: Sorcerer

LA (The LA only applies when the character is created. In other words, if you play the race from a smaller size, you "earn" the increased Size later, but starting more powerful requires more LA):

Small: +0
Medium: +1
Large: +5
Huge: +7
Gargantuan: +10
Colossal: +15


Starting Package
Coal, the Red Dragon
Small Dragon (Weakened)
Alignment: CE
1st level Barbarian
Speed: 30 ft
HP: 12+3 (15 HP)
AC: 13, 11 when Raging (10+1 Size +2 Natural)
BAB/Grapple: +1/+0
Attack: Bite +5 (1d6+4) or Rage Bite +7 (1d6+7)
Special Attacks: Rage 1/day, Breath Weapon Cone of Fire 1d8 (Ref 1/2 DC 12)
Special Qualities: Illiterate, Fast Movement +10', Resist Fire 5, Minor Weakness to Cold, +2 saves vs magical sleep
Possessions: 1 days rations, small sack, 30 gp
Feats: Improved Toughness
Str 17, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 13, Cha 10
Skills: Intimidate +4, Survival +5, Listen +5
Saves: Fort +4, Ref +0, Will +1 (+3 when raging)

[NeoSeraphi]

Finished. Suggestions?

[Domriso]

I really like this idea, and I think you implemented it well. That being said, while it does look slightly overpowered for a +0 LA, I don't think it matters much. The bonuses gained throughout the type sort of make it overpowered in any case, since levels will always be a part of the growing process which will make it more powerful than other races taking levels at the same speed. Still, you're letting your players play dragons, which otherwise are terribly difficult to do, so it doesn't seem that problematic.

If anything, forcing a growing level adjustment as they increase in size might balance it, but that just seems mean.

I like it as is.

[NeoSeraphi]

Added that dragons cannot wield a weapon or shield until they reach Medium size and removed their ability to wear armor. That should make the Natural Armor bonus less game-breaking for a PC race. Also added a 10% ASF until 6th level, to weaken the bonuses for sorcerers/wizards/bards at early levels.

[Ashtagon]

DR:
A dragon receives Damage Reduction X/Magic, where X is 5*the number of size categories the creature is Larger than Small. When a dragon reaches Gargantuan size, the DR changes to DR X/Epic.

This is probably worth +1 LA all on its own.

[NeoSeraphi]

This is probably worth +1 LA all on its own.

Well it's DR X/Magic, it's easily penetrated. But..fair enough. Do you think I should just take it away?

[Domriso]

I don't think it's that big of a deal. It gets pretty big, but the 5/Magic part kind of makes it weak. I mean, a Monk becomes able to pierce damage reduction at 4th level, so by 6th it shouldn't be that big of a deal. If anything, I would say change it to:

DR: A dragon receives Damage Reduction X/Magic, where X is 5*the number of size categories the creature is Larger than Medium. When a dragon reaches Gargantuan size, the DR changes to DR X/Epic.

[NeoSeraphi]

Hmm...so it wouldn't get DR until CR 11? Alright, yeah, that would make sense.

[Domriso]

Again, if you do push it back, I feel like it will be exceedingly useless by that point. At 11th level, how many formidable creatures don't have magic weapons? If you take that route, I would say make the DR more useful, such as /admantine, or maybe even /-. Then it's at least useful.

[NeoSeraphi]

Again, if you do push it back, I feel like it will be exceedingly useless by that point. At 11th level, how many formidable creatures don't have magic weapons? If you take that route, I would say make the DR more useful, such as /admantine, or maybe even /-. Then it's at least useful.

Even though you say that, I'm making this race less powerful than true dragons, and true dragons get DR X/Magic. Balance is less important to me than staying true to what WotC has put out.

[Ashtagon]

tbh, I find the idea of races that scale to be a little odd in the whole 3e paradigm. Yes, I am aware that there are some races that do that. There are by far in the minority.

If you want races scaling by level, I think the best solution is to either have racial feats (the D&D Saga Edition homebrew takes this route), or make them using the bloodlines (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodlines.htm) rules. Perhaps a "race" for the 1st level features, plus a required "bloodline" for the scaling features, is the way to go?

[gkathellar]

I'm not personally familiar with how, but I have seen many times that bloodlines are so broken they make Krypton look okay.

[Ashtagon]

I'm not personally familiar with how, but I have seen many times that bloodlines are so broken they make Krypton look okay.

Just about anything that isn't a fighter, monk, or barbarian can be broken with ease. The question isn't that it can be broken by an optimiser, but when not especially trying to optimise, does it break, and does it become a no-brainer must-have choice if included in the game.

fwiw, I'd be interested in seeking a broken bloodline that isn't broken because of the usual standard cheese that would also break a non-bloodline character.

[Cieyrin]

Personally, I don't see a reason to prevent them from using armor, as when they grow in size, their armor will be too small for them and they'd have to replace it, anyways. Either way they go about it should curb heavy investment in traditional armor, especially since they'll have to deal with the double whammy of different sizes and non-humanoid shapes, plus they'll have to keep it light if they expect to fly without proper feats to otherwise allow heavier armor.

As for DR, Core True Dragons gain it at Young Adult, which is around Large size, so the current version works fairly well for that.

Also, I approve of this, it makes bringing back Council of Wyrms a feasible idea. :smallsmile:

[Aergoth]

IIRC, Savage Species should have rules about armour for unusually shaped creatures. Or there's barding. Again, IIRC, magic barding resizes itself to fit.

[Cieyrin]

IIRC, Savage Species should have rules about armour for unusually shaped creatures. Or there's barding. Again, IIRC, magic barding resizes itself to fit.

Armor and Weapons in 3.5 don't magically resize, unlike every other magic item. The small greatsword that halfling blackguard you killed is going to be a strangely weighted medium longsword to you regardless of what you want.

[Aergoth]

Size And Magic Items

When an article of magic clothing or jewelry is discovered, most of the time size shouldn’t be an issue. Many magic garments are made to be easily adjustable, or they adjust themselves magically to the wearer. Size should not keep characters of various kinds from using magic items.

There may be rare exceptions, especially with racial specific items.

SRD, magic item basics.

[NeoSeraphi]

SRD, magic item basics.

The sizing weapon enchantment makes me think that weapons do not automatically size to fit the wielder. (As well as the text from enlarge person, expansion, and the Goliath barbarian ability Mountain Rage)


tbh, I find the idea of races that scale to be a little odd in the whole 3e paradigm. Yes, I am aware that there are some races that do that. There are by far in the minority.


Yes, but dragons are one of them. Dragons definitely scale as they advance in age categories. And even if they are in the minority, I rather like races that scale. To me, it makes sense that as a character grows, it should become more powerful. I find races that scale to be interesting and fun to play.


Personally, I don't see the need to prevent them from using armor
A. The restriction, in my opinion, will help keep it LA +0
B. It opens up the opportunity for dragon monks. :smallamused:

[Cieyrin]

SRD, magic item basics.



Armor and weapons that are found at random have a 30% chance of being Small (01-30), a 60% chance of being Medium (31-90), and a 10% chance of being any other size (91-100).

Just below where you quoted is this tidbit. Armor and Weapons are the exception to that rule. Why would they bother to have it if they resized like everything else?


A. The restriction, in my opinion, will help keep it LA +0
B. It opens up the opportunity for dragon monks. :smallamused:

Why couldn't you play a dragon monk, otherwise? Even if they were proficient, that doesn't mean they have to use it. Hidecarved Dragons are badass, to boot, so I don't think the incentive is really extra needed. Plus, since they're non-humanoid anyways, they're paying extra, which is restriction enough in my book, not to mention size.

[NeoSeraphi]

Well, then a first level dragon would have:

A bite attack that does as much damage as a wolf's bite, even though the dragon is Small.

A +1 Size bonus to attacks and AC, and +4 to Hide checks

A breath weapon that deals 1d8 points of damage, usable at will with no attack roll necessary.

+2 to Strength, even though it's a Small creature. (effective +2 to melee attack rolls)

+2 Natural Armor

Energy Resistance 5


Taking away their ability to wear armor, as well as wield weapons and casting spells effectively, should at least help balance it in the low level games.

[Admiral Squish]

I simply cannot agree with this being LA 0. I could maybe see it, if it was stacic, but not advancing like that. Let's just say I start a game at level 12. I'm getting, for free, +14 strength and +8 con. That ALONe would be enough, but then there are all those other goodies in there. Large size means you get some nifty bonuses and some nice reach. A rather enviable fly speed. Five Natural weapons, all significantly more powerful than average. And again, you invest NOTHING for all of this. I'd take this over pretty much any other race I can think of.

[DracoDei]

Out of curiousity, why did you not just ignore Draconomicon's LAs (which like most official published LAs are designed with the idea of keeping the demographics of PCs somewhat representative of world-population demographics) and make your own, lower, LAs?

Or treat them as required commoner levels (a common solution) or something?

[NeoSeraphi]

Out of curiousity, why did you not just ignore Draconomicon's LAs (which like most official published LAs are designed with the idea of keeping the demographics of PCs somewhat representative of world-population demographics) and make your own, lower, LAs?

Or treat them as required commoner levels (a common solution) or something?

Why would I treat them as "commoner levels"?

And anyway, I didn't make this for a specific campaign so I could play a dragon or something. It's homebrew. I made it so people could play it.

[NeoSeraphi]

I simply cannot agree with this being LA 0. I could maybe see it, if it was stacic, but not advancing like that. Let's just say I start a game at level 12. I'm getting, for free, +14 strength and +8 con. That ALONe would be enough, but then there are all those other goodies in there. Large size means you get some nifty bonuses and some nice reach. A rather enviable fly speed. Five Natural weapons, all significantly more powerful than average. And again, you invest NOTHING for all of this. I'd take this over pretty much any other race I can think of.

Fair point. I'll add a note that starting at higher Size categories grants an LA

[DracoDei]

Why would I treat them as "commoner levels"?

Because Commoner X (plus whatever PC classes and/or RHD apply) is better than LA +X.

Which brings me to wonder if the progression listed here is comprised of free benefits of leveling up in whatever class you are in, or you have to take dragon RHD as levels to get them. In the second case, no LA may EVER be necessary, depending on what your balance point is.

And anyway, I didn't make this for a specific campaign so I could play a dragon or something. It's homebrew. I made it so people could play it.
I understood that.

[NeoSeraphi]

Because Commoner X (plus whatever PC classes and/or RHD apply) is better than LA +X.

Which brings me to wonder if the progression listed here is comprised of free benefits of leveling up in whatever class you are in, or you have to take dragon RHD as levels to get them. In the second case, no LA may EVER be necessary, depending on what your balance point is.



Ah, no. It's supposed to be playable from Level 1, the benefits scale with your class level, they're not dragon HD. It's like the Dragonborn template or the Raptoran race.

[DracoDei]

Ah, no. It's supposed to be playable from Level 1, the benefits scale with your class level, they're not dragon HD. It's like the Dragonborn template or the Raptoran race.

Might want to clarify that in the original post.

[NeoSeraphi]

Might want to clarify that in the original post.

Alright, edited.

[NeoSeraphi]

Changed the format to make it (hopefully) easier to read, and also nerfed the race more by halving the increased bonuses to Str and Con from Size increases, while keeping the full Dex loss.

[DracoDei]

Eh... I would like to see you drop the initial dexterity penalty in that case.

[NeoSeraphi]

Eh... I would like to see you drop the initial dexterity penalty in that case.

What, +2 Str with no penalty? That seems a bit much.

[BinaryMage]

What, +2 Str with no penalty? That seems a bit much.

Don't drop the penalty. This is already powerful enough at higher levels.

I like the class you've created, but I think that it is just too powerful for a race that can be part of a party with other normal SRD races. Just compare this at level 10 to a dwarf, human, even an LA +1 race.

[NeoSeraphi]

Don't drop the penalty. This is already powerful enough at higher levels.

I like the class you've created, but I think that it is just too powerful for a race that can be part of a party with other normal SRD races. Just compare this at level 10 to a dwarf, human, even an LA +1 race.

Well, it's a dragon. Dragons are supposed to be more powerful than everyone else. I just made this race because I hoped it would be a less powerful, less complicated option than the Draconomicon provides. I mean, as a DM, if my player wants to play a cool race for RP reasons or even power reasons, I'm inclined to let them, after I've made my own modifications to it.

[BinaryMage]

Well, it's a dragon. Dragons are supposed to be more powerful than everyone else. I just made this race because I hoped it would be a less powerful, less complicated option than the Draconomicon provides. I mean, as a DM, if my player wants to play a cool race for RP reasons or even power reasons, I'm inclined to let them, after I've made my own modifications to it.

Yeah. I think what you created is great, don't get me wrong. My point is that it just isn't equal to the other races. But it certainly would be fun to play a campaign where all the party members were dragons.

[Cieyrin]

Why is the breath weapon at will? put a cool down on that, like a normal dragon, ya crazy!

[NeoSeraphi]

Yeah. I think what you created is great, don't get me wrong. My point is that it just isn't equal to the other races. But it certainly would be fun to play a campaign where all the party members were dragons.

I agree, but some races just aren't equal to others anyway, even at LA +0. Take the half-elf and the..well...anything. Okay, half-elf is a bad example.

How about two LA +0 melee-intended races, the half-orc and the Neanderthal (Frostburn)?

The half-orc has +2 Str, -2 Int, -2 Cha.

The Neanderthal has +2 Str, -2 Dex, +2 Con, -2 Int.

The half-orc has Darkvision out to 60 ft.

The Neanderthal has a free Weapon Focus (that stacks with the actual feat) in 18 weapons, several of which make fine melee weapons, and a free endure elements that counts as a feat for the purposes of qualifying for other feats or prestige classes. The Neanderthal also has a +2 racial bonus on Survival, Listen, and Spot, 3 very important skills that all use Wisdom, priming the Neandethal to be a powerful ranger or barbarian.

Additionally, how about the orc vs the dwarf? Again, two standard LA +0 races.

The dwarf has +2 Con, -2 Cha

The orc has +4 Str, -2 Int, -2 Wis, -2 Cha. And if you use the Water Orc subrace in Unearthed Arcana, it gets a +2 Con on top of that.

The dwarf receives Stonecunning, which is very flavorful, but for the most part, doesn't come up in gameplay, as well as a +2 racial bonus on saves vs spells, SLAs, and poisons. (Very nice)

The orc receives light sensitivity.

They both have Darkvision.

So which is better? The orc, if you want to look at just melee combat. Even with the -1 penalty on its attack rolls during daylight, it still nets a +1 bonus from its +4 Str. The dwarf might be more fun to play because of its flavor, but one could argue the same for the orc.

The fact is, if you're an optimizer, and you're good at it, you will be better than the rest of the party, more than likely by level 10. (assuming the party isn't a group of optimizers). Not all races are created equal, whether by WotC or by the Playground.


Edit: Clarified the dragon's breath weapon.

[BinaryMage]

The fact is, if you're an optimizer, and you're good at it, you will be better than the rest of the party, more than likely by level 10. (assuming the party isn't a group of optimizers). Not all races are created equal, whether by WotC or by the Playground.

Yes, nothing is really balanced, classes (monk vs druid), races (half-elf vs anything), feats (toughness ???), skills (UMD), or anything else. But the only way for things to be perfectly balanced is for every character to be the same, and imagine how boring that would be...

[NeoSeraphi]

Yes, nothing is really balanced, classes (monk vs druid), races (half-elf vs anything), feats (toughness ???), skills (UMD), or anything else. But the only way for things to be perfectly balanced is for every character to be the same, and imagine how boring that would be...

Indeed. And actually, your post before this had given me a brilliant idea, but this post has only served to solidify it...to the new thread!

[BinaryMage]

Indeed. And actually, your post before this had given me a brilliant idea, but this post has only served to solidify it...to the new thread!

Well, I'm certainly glad I gave you an idea. Quick question: I'm new to this section, exactly what does "PEACH" mean?

[Daverin]

It means "Please Examine And Critique Honestly" which means... well, exactly what it says on the tin! :smallwink:

I believe that, in general, it is intended to assure other posters that yes, the OP did want people to review his work, and to feel free to let 'er rip. Whether or not its treated as anything more than a mere formality, though, I haven't a clue...

[BinaryMage]

It means "Please Examine And Critique Honestly" which means... well, exactly what it says on the tin! :smallwink:

I believe that, in general, it is intended to assure other posters that yes, the OP did want people to review his work, and to feel free to let 'er rip. Whether or not its treated as anything more than a mere formality, though, I haven't a clue...

Okay, thanks for the info.

[DracoDei]

The orc receives Stonecunning, which is very flavorful, but for the most part, doesn't come up in gameplay, as well as a +2 racial bonus on saves vs spells, SLAs, and poisons. (Very nice)

I think you accidentally typed "orc" when you meant "dwarf" in this paragraph.

[NeoSeraphi]

I think you accidentally typed "orc" when you meant "dwarf" in this paragraph.

Fixed, thanks.

Also expanded the Weakened subtype to prevent mental aging cheese.

[NeoSeraphi]

Fixed up the breath weapon completely and I think I'm done. I think it looks like a fun way to play a dragon without getting too overpowered. The natural armor increase is slow, and combined with the Dexterity penalty, it probably won't stack up against real armor, meaning the dragon will be vulnerable, but its high Constitution score should help keep the heat off. What does everyone think?