My DM Hates Archery

[Black_Zawisza]

Last session, my DM has houseruled full attacks with five-foot steps away. How can I persuade him to change his mind? I mean, I've tried the whole "Fighters (especially archers) need nice things!" argument, but that isn't working, despite the fact that he seems to be aware of the power-gap between casters and People Who Need Full Attacks™.

PS: Off-topic a little, I guess, but in the same session, he thought that by RAW, without Manyshot you can't make ranged full attacks. I showed him that it didn't, but he was prepared to enforce that rule had it existed. :smallsigh:

[Coidzor]

Well, why did he do that?

[Black_Zawisza]

Well, why did he do that?
He didn't really clarify. Perhaps he thinks they aren't realistic? That's most remotely rational argument I can think of.

[RndmNumGen]

Last session, my DM has houseruled full attacks with five-foot steps away.

What exactly do you mean by this? You can full attack and 5-foot step away? That's normal, isn't it?

[Black_Zawisza]

What exactly do you mean by this? You can full attack and 5-foot step away? That's normal, isn't it?
No, I mean he's houseruled away full attacks with five-foot steps.

...thus screwing non-casters yet again. Fffffffuuuuuuuuuuuu. How I wish I could be the group judge on rules-lawyer cases without being the DM. :smallfrown:

[Prime32]

Everyone stands exactly still while fighting? :smallconfused: Look at... any fight scene.

As for the archery thing, look for any archer who has a lot of action scenes. Movie!Legolas maybe.

[Rogue Shadows]

You know, not being able to 5-foot step also screws the caster. Many a time as a player I have been annoyed by the "wizard's dance."

That's when I started seriously looking at the potential of the spiked chain...

Having said that, the houserule seems silly.

But what kind of an archer are you if you're close enough to your enemy that you need to worry about making 5-foot steps, anyway?


Everyone stands exactly still while fighting? Look at... any fight scene.

No, they only stay exactly still when making a full attack. I can see the reasoning behind it, even if I don't agree with it.

[Xtomjames]

Simple answer get boots of haste. If he won't allow you to have a full round action with a 5 foot step, just get an extra move action equivalent. You might also want to read the rules on what you can and can't do in a move action. For example you can draw a sword, or load an arrow and move in the same action and then attack or fire the arrow in the standard action.

[iDesu]

You know, not being able to 5-foot step also screws the caster. Many a time as a player I have been annoyed by the "wizard's dance."

Except that the the 5-foot step still exists, his DM just house ruled that you can't take a 5-foot step and full attack in the same turn. So casters with their standard actions are good to go. Or at least that's my interpretation of how things.

[Coidzor]

Finding out why he decided to do this would help with figuring out if it's even possible to convince him otherwise.


You know, not being able to 5-foot step also screws the caster. Many a time as a player I have been annoyed by the "wizard's dance."

Well, he didn't say the 5-foot step was completely gone, so who knows...

[Rogue Shadows]

Except that the the 5-foot step still exists, his DM just house ruled that you can't take a 5-foot step and full attack in the same turn. So casters with their standard actions are good to go.

Oh. Well that's bull.

[Moriato]

Simple answer get boots of haste. If he won't allow you to have a full round action with a 5 foot step, just get an extra move action equivalent.

Haste doesn't work that way. It increases your movement rate by 30ft, but you still only have one move action.

[Black_Zawisza]

You know, not being able to 5-foot step also screws the caster. Many a time as a player I have been annoyed by the "wizard's dance."No, he'll still let you five-foot step, it just mean you can't make a full attack. Which screws everyone but casters.


But what kind of an archer are you if you're close enough to your enemy that you need to worry about making 5-foot steps, anyway?I dunno about anyone else, but our group's battlefields are rarely big enough for me to take advantage of ranged attacks. Usually I'm just a move action away.

[Hawk7915]

That sucks, and you should ask him why. Of all the (non-spell) things to houserule away in D&D 3.5, the ability to full-attak after a 5' step should be the last of them, and if you're going to do that you should make casters unable to 5' step and cast.

If he won't change though, you still have some options. Suddenly, Ranged Scout and Initiator classes get a whole lot better. They weren't going to be able to full attack anyways, so you can just move action and then use whatever. Barbarian (with Pounce) variant goes from "good" to "the best melee class in the game", as they're now the only class that can make more than one attack after movement. And manyshot gets slightly less worthless (I still wouldn't take it unless it was Improved Manyshot in a Rogue or Swift Hunter build). It does make Fighter, Monk, and any TWF even more awful than they already were though, and really nerfs reach weapon users (who wanted to be less munchkin-y and not used a spiked chain, at least).

[Tyndmyr]

Clearly, your gm hates noncasters and balance. Reroll as a tier 1 and break the game into tiny pieces.

Bonus points for using wings of cover, and pointing out you godlike ability to wreck anyone thanks to a 5 ft step and a 2nd level spell. Or abrupt jaunt. Laugh maniaclly. It helps.

[Spiryt]

He didn't really clarify. Perhaps he thinks they aren't realistic? That's most remotely rational argument I can think of.

You can tell him that nothing's less 'realistic' than damn Manyshot.

It will make him think trough his decisions.

Or... He will take Manyshot from you as well. Choice is yours. :smallbiggrin:

[Coidzor]

I believe a Belt of Battle would be of some use here though.

What's your archer character, Black_Zawisza?

[Rogue Shadows]

No, he'll still let you five-foot step, it just mean you can't make a full attack. Which screws everyone but casters.

Yes, that was clarified for me. I agree: that's bull.


I dunno about anyone else, but our group's battlefields are rarely big enough for me to take advantage of ranged attacks. Usually I'm just a move action away.

Hmm. I think I need to stop playing on Fantastic Locations battle maps and start playing using dungeon tiles more often.


Clearly, your gm hates noncasters and balance. Reroll as a tier 1 and break the game into tiny pieces.

I have a deep-seated dislike of any course of action that involved harakiri, personally.

[Philistine]

Re-roll IRL, as your group's new DM. The DM you've got either doesn't understand the game well enough to run it, or suffers from such a blatant pro-caster/anti-martial bias that he can't be trusted to run a game that includes both.

In any case, you should absolutely refer to him at all times as "Lord Voldemort" due to his irrational hatred for Muggles.



@V: The DM in question is houseruling away the ability to full attack and 5' step in the same turn - that is, he's taking an area of weakness for martial characters and making it even weaker, in a game that's strongly unbalanced in favor of casters to begin with. So in a sense you're correct - the above advice is incomplete in that it does leave out the crucial "leave, and never join a game run by this DM again" clause, but really that's so obvious it shouldn't have to be stated.

Also, "preclude" does not mean what you think it means. You probably want "neglects" in that sentence.

[Rogue Shadows]

In any case, you should absolutely refer to him at all times as "Lord Voldemort" due to his irrational hatred for Muggles.

See, that's just needlessly antagonistic, is unlikely to solve the problem, and precludes the possibility that he might of actually been rooting for Voldemort.

[PollyOliver]

I agree with the people who say you need to find out why he banned it to know how to convince him otherwise--or even if you can. Seconding belt of battle if you can afford it. Also, look into anklets of translocation and the chronocharm of the horizon walker. (If you have MIC). If you have access to tome of battle, a more resource intensive option is to get access to something like sudden leap, whether by feat or by item. A five-foot jump should be very simple to pull off, and even ten or fifteen feet is trivial by mid-levels. All of these things only give you a few uses a day, but if you take two or three of them you should be all right.

I wouldn't break his game into tiny pieces by rolling a wizard, though. I would try to find out why he banned it, as other have said above, and attempt to convince him to change his mind. If he does, as you say, understand to some extent that mundane characters are heavily disadvantaged compared to casters, you might well be able to explain to him that he just took one of the biggest weak spots of noncasters besides the whole shattering reality bit (reliance on full attacks and incompatibility of this with movement) and made it even worse, while not touching casters at all. If he is a reasonable person, treating him like a reasonable person and making rational arguments might help him change his mind.


But a question--do you not have manyshot? This ruling wouldn't affect that, would it? Or are you not high enough level yet?

If there's no success there and you want to stay an archer, skirmish just became more viable because you'll often need to waste a move action anyway. If you don't mind being a not-archer, but do want to stay as a non-caster, I'd try and nab pounce or something.

[opticalshadow]

if i were you id start my asking him abotu every single future thing you intend to shoot for, becuase stupid hosue rules this early in th egame often mean even dumber things later on.

[Hiro Protagonest]

How do the other players feel about this?

[NecroRick]

An easy solution is to simply accept that the Full Attack is dead (long live the full attack) and go with the vast multitude of feats that slap on an extra attack (at -2 penalty for all attacks) to a standard attack.

E.g. Snap Kick (I'm sure people can come up with better examples)

+6/+1 is usually worse than +4/+4 (though if the number you need to roll on the dice is close to 20 at +6 anyway this can get mathy)

[Black_Zawisza]

How do the other players feel about this?
I've seen no complaint from the others, even though they've played for much longer than I have. My group is really low-op; one of the other players, when he was DMing, did complain when me and the current DM were each dealing 30 damage/round at level 6-8 (can't remember precisely what). EDIT: Also, in the campaign before this, he wouldn't let me play a Factotum. Because it was too good. :smallsigh:


What's your archer character, Black_Zawisza?Our core group consists of a Factotum 10 (me), a homebrewed vampire Cleric 9 (plus 1 LA), and a Swordsage. The Cleric doesn't use many spells aside from from the Cure/Inflict Wounds line, and it's extremely unusual for either of them to deal more than 30 damage/round.

While I'm annoyed on principle about how my DM deals with non-casters, I'm generally having fun in the current game; the problem is that next campaign, I want to play a character dual-wielding hand crossbows. While the next DM (yet another guy) is banning all casters for that particular game, I'm still concerned about the number of feats I'll need to support such a mechanically ****ty combat style. For the build I'm planning, I'd really like to have two flaws (current DM disallows them) and for Point Blank Shot to be ignored as a feat prerequisite, but I don't think he'll be very sympathetic. :smallfrown:


Re-roll IRL, as your group's new DM. The DM you've got either doesn't understand the game well enough to run it, or suffers from such a blatant pro-caster/anti-martial bias that he can't be trusted to run a game that includes both.

In any case, you should absolutely refer to him at all times as "Lord Voldemort" due to his irrational hatred for Muggles.Thanks for the genuine laugh-out-loud, dude. :smallbiggrin:

[hobbitkniver]

Haha, you should have played with my old DM. He didn't use touch AC, so magic never hit.

[Midnight_v]

if i were you id start my asking him abotu every single future thing you intend to shoot for, becuase stupid hosue rules this early in th egame often mean even dumber things later on.

Just as simple plus 1, you don't wanna get surprised with this type of nonsense over and over again.
If he's stubborn about it... you might want to consider a caster or yeah like rogue shadows said a spked chain or a polearm.

[elonin]

Just as simple plus 1, you don't wanna get surprised with this type of nonsense over and over again.
If he's stubborn about it... you might want to consider a caster or yeah like rogue shadows said a spked chain or a polearm.

Pole arms users need 5' steps.


Haha, you should have played with my old DM. He didn't use touch AC, so magic never hit.

Ouch. Was about to say the same except that my dm turns up the penalty for not taking precise shot and firing into combat. If you miss because of the penalty for precise shot you auto-hit your ally. I could see the difference if it were fumble style, even with the higher fumble range of 4. Also doesn't check vs ac on the ally in this circumstance.

[NecroRick]

Haha, you should have played with my old DM. He didn't use touch AC, so magic never hit.

I've seen groups where the DM didn't care, but it was the other players who whinged about touch attacks being too good.

[Jornophelanthas]

What kind of enemies does this DM throw against the party?

Because if you face fighters, rogues, monks and dual-wielders a lot, they will be hit just as hard by this houserule. This also goes for monsters with multiple (natural weapon) attacks.

If you start your turn next to one of them, five-foot step away and watch how they can only use one single attack. If the monster has both reach and multiple attacks, tumble out of its threatened space or withdraw as a full-round action.

If you and the other players can make it happen that no single enemy ever gets to use a secondary attack, the DM will feel the pain as well.

And he might scrap his own rule.

----

Also, perhaps your DM believes your character to be too powerful (because you outdamage the other party members) and has instituted this rule to specifically tone down your damage output.

Ask him.

If that is the case, retire your character. Either quit the game (if you believe you can't have fun with such a DM), or reroll into a warblade, crusader, swordsage or scout (so that you (1) are not hurt by the houserule and (2) cannot be further nerfed without the other Swordsage player suffering too).

[Amphetryon]

Is Tome of Battle available in this DM's game? Many attack maneuvers are standard actions, so Initiators won't be quite as badly hamstrung by this ruling.

[LordBlades]

Pole arms users need 5' steps.



Ouch. Was about to say the same except that my dm turns up the penalty for not taking precise shot and firing into combat. If you miss because of the penalty for precise shot you auto-hit your ally. I could see the difference if it were fumble style, even with the higher fumble range of 4. Also doesn't check vs ac on the ally in this circumstance.

Try to shoot the ally and deliberately miss? By this logic you should autohit the enemy :smallamused:

[Prime32]

Try to shoot the ally and deliberately miss? By this logic you should autohit the enemy :smallamused:"I shoot my ally with one eye closed from the back of my running horse."