Stat/Price this bow?

[Graha013]

This has been put to me as the 'game ending' bow of bows. I don't think he can make it/afford it, however we (I) just became the king of a kingdom after dispatching the shapechanged demon not once, not twice, but three times. B*tches love me. (also note I have the best charisma, spoke first, and got the killing blow all three times..otherwise I was pretty ineffective)

So this is what our archer has requested, using all of his ECL 15 wealth and asking me for some more money if needed:

Energy bow base (2d6 dam, composite longbow+4)
Additional enhancements:
Elvencrafted (in case he has to melee:P)
Seeking
Speed
Splitting

The composite longbow +4 cost I think is absorbed into the cost of the energy bow weapon, but that's what his 'base' weapon is.

I think it's what, a +7 otherwise?

I've never been proficient at making magical items from scratch, but the DM said 'if it can be afforded, you have a kingdom to work with'. I think this guy might read my posts here? Because someone said (Keld Denar, I think?) that if he gets a energy bow he might be useful. Well these are the numbers (from that earlier build we discussed in THIS (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=206654) thread) that he's boasting he's gonna be dealing:

full attack - 5 shots (rapid shot/speed)
those 5 shots split into 10, each dealing:

dealing (full attack, all hitting) 20d6 +50 additional dam (or 60 within 30')* + 40 (4str x 10 shots)

Damage notes: He gets +5-6 depending on range due to feats.
He gets +7-8 damage if it's against his favored enemy:P Crap.

Final outcome? 20d6+50-80+40....summarized: 20d6+90-120

Please tell me he's wrong.

Please.

[Xtomjames]

Okay, well a Masterwork Force Bow (not Force burst) is only a +2 weapon, a Force Burst bow would start at +4 with the elven construction.

That said following the rules for the game having just the seeking and speed bonuses would put you past a +10 thus the bow technically can't be created. Since I can't find the "splitting" ability I can't comment on it. The total cost of this bow however is above the +10 mark or 200,000+ gold.

[Graha013]

Okay, well a Masterwork Force Bow (not Force burst) is only a +2 weapon, a Force Burst bow would start at +4 with the elven construction.

That said following the rules for the game having just the seeking and speed bonuses would put you past a +10 thus the bow technically can't be created. Since I can't find the "splitting" ability I can't comment on it. The total cost of this bow however is above the +10 mark or 200,000+ gold.

Splitting is from Champions of Ruin, a +2

The 'base bow' he is working with is the Energy Bow from the cartoon. I think it was 28k and part of it's ability was to match the str rating needed to the str of the wielder as if a composite longbow of that level.

Seeking is +1, Speed is +3. Thats a total enhancement with all three of +6.

If he's adding that to the energy bow..does that change anything? He didn't say force burst.. I'll try to find that bow r/q

Here it be. Hank's Bow (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061227a)

It looks like one limitation he'll have to live with is that it's only a +2 composite longbow, so it won't accomodate all of his +4 str..

[BillyBobJoe]

Well, if you use This (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061227a) as a base, and add the Splitting, Speed, and Seeking (seeking is a +1 bonus, right), you end up with a +8 total. That would be 128,000 + 22,600, or 150,600, well within your WBL.

[Graha013]

Well, if you use This (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061227a) as a base, and add the Splitting, Speed, and Seeking (seeking is a +1 bonus, right), you end up with a +8 total. That would be 128,000 + 22,600, or 150,600, well within your WBL.

Shut up. So he can actually do it? Would his STR-to-damage from the composity-goodness be limited at 2. I read it and I see it accomodates different strength, but it acts as a comp. longbow +2.

[BillyBobJoe]

Shut up. So he can actually do it? Would his STR-to-damage from the composity-goodness be limited at 2. I read it and I see it accomodates different strength, but it acts as a comp. longbow +2.

It auto-adjusts, meaning it can accommodate any strength, even if he had a Strength mod of +1,000,000. The amount of strength is not limited by the enhancement, it's just any strength. Besides, he's a 15th level character, people can hit much harder than that. Archers are already kinda meh.

[Graha013]

It auto-adjusts, meaning it can accommodate any strength, even if he had a Strength mod of +1,000,000. The amount of strength is not limited by the enhancement, it's just any strength. Besides, he's a 15th level character, people can hit much harder than that. Archers are already kinda meh.

20d6+90-120 doesn't really seem like 'meh' to me though. Even if we limit it to only +2 on that interpretation of the composite use (because YOUR definition scares me in regards to balance of this campaign), he's still doing 20d6+70-100. What is that, minimum to max like 90-220 damage? If the thing ISNT protected from energy force missiles, that just....that just ain't right.

[erikun]

Do you really think he will be hitting with his +1 BAB iterative once he hits 16th level?

Yes, your fighter character, who is specialized in fighting and can only do fighting, can do some respectable damage when fighting. Note that a standard rogue of that level hits for around 10d6 damage and attacks around eight times each round - that's 80d6 (average 280) damage each round... assuming all the attacks hit. Which, between high AC and miss chances still applying, is a pretty big "if".

[only1doug]

20d6+90-120 doesn't really seem like 'meh' to me though. Even if we limit it to only +2 on that interpretation of the composite use (because YOUR definition scares me in regards to balance of this campaign), he's still doing 20d6+70-100. What is that, minimum to max like 90-220 damage? If the thing ISNT protected from energy force missiles, that just....that just ain't right.

As GM you do have certain leeway, you could for example rule that the energy bow is incompatable with the splitting enhancement. (not entirely unreasonable as the splitting enhancement creates a duplicate of the existing arrow and the energy bow doesn't have an existing arrow to duplicate.)

If it will break your campaign then don't allow it nerf it slightly.

[tyckspoon]

Shut up. So he can actually do it? Would his STR-to-damage from the composity-goodness be limited at 2. I read it and I see it accomodates different strength, but it acts as a comp. longbow +2.

As mentioned it adjusts to any strength. "+2 Composite Longbow" means a Composite Longbow with a +2 enhancement bonus, exactly the same as if you wrote +2 Heavy Crossbow or +2 Longsword. Check your DMG/PHB- the Strength bonus it accommodates is written after the name of the weapon, not before. If it were a limited value, you'd see "+2 Composite Longbow (+2 Strength modifier.)" The Energy Bow should show "+2 Composite Longbow (wielder's Strength modifier) for consistancy, but eh, it's a web article, they probably don't have the same editors on it.

[Graha013]

Do you really think he will be hitting with his +1 BAB iterative once he hits 16th level?

Yes, your fighter character, who is specialized in fighting and can only do fighting, can do some respectable damage when fighting. Note that a standard rogue of that level hits for around 10d6 damage and attacks around eight times each round - that's 80d6 (average 280) damage each round... assuming all the attacks hit. Which, between high AC and miss chances still applying, is a pretty big "if".

He's rolling with +30/30/30/25/20 on his sheet. We chcked it in the earlier thread and its legit. That's including his BAB and his dex and any feat or weapon bonuses. He doesn't miss much as it is.

[Graha013]

As mentioned it adjusts to any strength. "+2 Composite Longbow" means a Composite Longbow with a +2 enhancement bonus, exactly the same as if you wrote +2 Heavy Crossbow or +2 Longsword. Check your DMG/PHB- the Strength bonus it accommodates is written after the name of the weapon, not before. If it were a limited value, you'd see "+2 Composite Longbow (+2 Strength modifier.)" The Energy Bow should show "+2 Composite Longbow (wielder's Strength modifier) for consistancy, but eh, it's a web article, they probably don't have the same editors on it.

Agreed, I think for game's sake I'm gonna push the DM to limit it at +2. None of the other characters, mine included, are using such a sweet weapon for his 'niche'. Though if I could steal spells from 185', I would!

[Graha013]

As GM you do have certain leeway, you could for example rule that the energy bow is incompatable with the splitting enhancement. (not entirely unreasonable as the splitting enhancement creates a duplicate of the existing arrow and the energy bow doesn't have an existing arrow to duplicate.)

If it will break your campaign then don't allow it nerf it slightly.

Excellent advice. I'll recommend. Hell I'm not even the DM! I just have better sources (Playground) and a little more experience in the build/optimized department.

[Graha013]

Do you really think he will be hitting with his +1 BAB iterative once he hits 16th level?

Yes, your fighter character, who is specialized in fighting and can only do fighting, can do some respectable damage when fighting. Note that a standard rogue of that level hits for around 10d6 damage and attacks around eight times each round - that's 80d6 (average 280) damage each round... assuming all the attacks hit. Which, between high AC and miss chances still applying, is a pretty big "if".

Side note, he boosted Intimidate as his means of 'parley'. He said his guy is gonna shoot anything that isn't scared of him. He's got +20 to the check, though I guess at 15 it really should be higher if he was optimizing it?

[only1doug]

Do you really think he will be hitting with his +1 BAB iterative once he hits 16th level?

Yes, your fighter character, who is specialized in fighting and can only do fighting, can do some respectable damage when fighting. Note that a standard rogue of that level hits for around 10d6 damage and attacks around eight times each round - that's 80d6 (average 280) damage each round... assuming all the attacks hit. Which, between high AC and miss chances still applying, is a pretty big "if".


He's rolling with +30/30/30/25/20 on his sheet. We chcked it in the earlier thread and its legit. That's including his BAB and his dex and any feat or weapon bonuses. He doesn't miss much as it is.



Seeking

Only ranged weapons can have the seeking ability. The weapon veers toward its target, negating any miss chances that would otherwise apply, such as from concealment. (The wielder still has to aim the weapon at the right square. Arrows mistakenly shot into an empty space, for example, do not veer and hit invisible enemies, even if they are nearby.)

He's going to hit a reasonable amount of the time, an additional +14 to hit from dex, weapon and feat bonuses?

Imagining a +2 dex race for 20 starting dex, +4 from levels, +6 from item for 30 Dex gives a +10 total leaving only 4 more to find... doable.


Side note, he boosted Intimidate as his means of 'parley'. He said his guy is gonna shoot anything that isn't scared of him. He's got +20 to the check, though I guess at 15 it really should be higher if he was optimizing it?

He's probably used charisma as a dump stat.

[Force]

He's rolling with +30/30/30/25/20 on his sheet. We chcked it in the earlier thread and its legit. That's including his BAB and his dex and any feat or weapon bonuses. He doesn't miss much as it is.

Wind Wall negates him completely unless the DM rules that his force bolts aren't affected by wind. A foe with miss chances via spells, such as Displacement, ignores half his attacks as it is. Add Entropic Shield and, say, Darkness and you're looking at 90% miss chance right there. A clever demon/devil with Quicken SLA (Greater Teleport) can charge him, hammer him, then 'port away and repeat ad nauseum.

[tyckspoon]

Agreed, I think for game's sake I'm gonna push the DM to limit it at +2. None of the other characters, mine included, are using such a sweet weapon for his 'niche'. Though if I could steal spells from 185', I would!

Eh. You could be, if you were willing to try sinking your *entire character wealth* into it. Actually, it's pretty simple..get a Distance Quickloading Light Crossbow. Have a Wand Chamber (Dungeonscape) put in it with a wand of Sniper's Shot (Spell Compendium.) I'm assuming you're a Spellthief, and you'd dang well better have Use Magic Device.. activate Sniper's Shot from the wand as a Swift action. For the next turn, there is no range limit on your Sneak Attack. Heck, make yours Splitting as well and enjoy looting an enemy's entire compliment of high-level spells/spell like abilities/whatever from at least 160' away.

[Graha013]

He's going to hit a reasonable amount of the time, an additional +14 to hit from dex, weapon and feat bonuses?

Imagining a +2 dex race for 20 starting dex, +4 from levels, +6 from item for 30 Dex gives a +10 total leaving only 4 more to find... doable.



He's probably used charisma as a dump stat.

Yeah he dumped CHA but also dumped his skill points into intimidate. But ...meh, it's his thing I guess. He was mad he couldn't intimidate a demon. Shut up dude, you're lucky you even thought to take Abyssal as a language. R-tard.

Uhm I've got his sheet, 18 dex, 2 ability mods, +6 gloves. he's at 26 Dex. He gets +8 from Dex and +7 from feats, (+6 beyond 30' range)

[Graha013]

Eh. You could be, if you were willing to try sinking your *entire character wealth* into it. Actually, it's pretty simple..get a Distance Quickloading Light Crossbow. Have a Wand Chamber (Dungeonscape) put in it with a wand of Sniper's Shot (Spell Compendium.) I'm assuming you're a Spellthief, and you'd dang well better have Use Magic Device.. activate Sniper's Shot from the wand as a Swift action. For the next turn, there is no range limit on your Sneak Attack. Heck, make yours Splitting as well and enjoy looting an enemy's entire compliment of high-level spells/spell like abilities/whatever from at least 160' away.

Love this. I actually did a wand chamber/sheath on his buckler, just to do it. This is a much greater idea!

[Douglas]

20d6 is average 70, so on a good roll this might reach 200. At level 15, for a full round action with total success (which is pretty unlikely against typical opponents), on a character specialized in dealing damage, this is pretty much 'meh'. It's a decent amount of damage for a damage-oriented character at that level, but far from game-breaking.

Looking at a few CR 15+ monsters straight from the Monster Manual, typical opponents at this level should have AC 30 at a minimum, and many of them higher than that. And then some of then have DR too, which against that many attacks is going to be far more effective than usual.

Even with no customization at all, just taking monster stat blocks directly from the book, this archer should be missing a significant portion of his shots, particularly the ones at +20, and DR should be a major problem for him. So no, I don't think this is that big a deal. The enemies a 15th level party should be facing are generally capable of taking this sort of thing and hitting right back.

[only1doug]

A foe with miss chances via spells, such as Displacement, ignores half his attacks as it is. Add Entropic Shield and, say, Darkness and you're looking at 90% miss chance right there. A clever demon/devil with Quicken SLA (Greater Teleport) can charge him, hammer him, then 'port away and repeat ad nauseum.

See "seeking" enhancement (that he wishes to have added to his potential new bow) I would expect that he already has this enhancement on his existing bow.


Wind Wall negates him completely unless the DM rules that his force bolts aren't affected by wind.

I'm not sure how I would rule this one if I were his DM, I'd probably go with negating him completely (which just means he has to bypass the wall, or the party has to get rid of it somehow).

[Graha013]

See "seeking" enhancement (that he wishes to have added to his potential new bow) I would expect that he already has this enhancement on his existing bow.



I'm not sure how I would rule this one if I were his DM, I'd probably go with negating him completely (which just means he has to bypass the wall, or the party has to get rid of it somehow).

Devil's advocate, isn't energy bow based on magic missile - since they are 'force bolts' - wouldn't they bypass windwall just as magic missile does? I'm pulling the MM from the creation notes on the base energy bow for Hank

[tyckspoon]

And then some of then have DR too, which against that many attacks is going to be far more effective than usual.


Energy Bow launches force darts by default. He could actually be doing more damage with well-chosen magic arrows (there's nothing in the Bow's writeup that prevents you using it with normal arrows, note) but the automatic ammunition it uses is pretty dang reliable damage.

[Graha013]

20d6 is average 70, so on a good roll this might reach 200. At level 15, for a full round action with total success (which is pretty unlikely against typical opponents), on a character specialized in dealing damage, this is pretty much 'meh'. It's a decent amount of damage for a damage-oriented character at that level, but far from game-breaking.

Looking at a few CR 15+ monsters straight from the Monster Manual, typical opponents at this level should have AC 30 at a minimum, and many of them higher than that. And then some of then have DR too, which against that many attacks is going to be far more effective than usual.

Even with no customization at all, just taking monster stat blocks directly from the book, this archer should be missing a significant portion of his shots, particularly the ones at +20, and DR should be a major problem for him. So no, I don't think this is that big a deal. The enemies a 15th level party should be facing are generally capable of taking this sort of thing and hitting right back.

Give him 70 (average) on his 20d6 rolls, and then add his other damage modifiers (90-120) and he's doing, average, 160-190. I guess even what experience I have as a player, I'm not used to seeing THOSE kind of numbers being shrugged off. But you're right, I'm not taking into account DR or even immunities. Whats immune to force?:P

[Graha013]

Energy Bow launches force darts by default. He could actually be doing more damage with well-chosen magic arrows (there's nothing in the Bow's writeup that prevents you using it with normal arrows, note) but the automatic ammunition it uses is pretty dang reliable damage.

Right. He can do 2d6 per bolt of energy or regular 1d8 vs. a damage arrow, but he's got to use it normally. Note he hasn't even got a quiver at this point, although something like an effecient quiver is probably moot if he's using force shots.

[NNescio]

Give him 70 (average) on his 20d6 rolls, and then add his other damage modifiers (90-120) and he's doing, average, 160-190. I guess even what experience I have as a player, I'm not used to seeing THOSE kind of numbers being shrugged off. But you're right, I'm not taking into account DR or even immunities. Whats immune to force?:P

Force dragons? I think there's also a specific type of golem somewhere.

[Douglas]

Energy Bow launches force darts by default. He could actually be doing more damage with well-chosen magic arrows (there's nothing in the Bow's writeup that prevents you using it with normal arrows, note) but the automatic ammunition it uses is pretty dang reliable damage.
I checked the description before I posted that - it ignores incorporeal miss chance, but says nothing about ignoring DR.

[tyckspoon]

Doesn't need to. Damage Reduction is not applicable against magical or energy attacks, such as, say, magical force bolts.

[erikun]

Also, note that anything with reach + Combat Reflexes can just charge him, and hit him right back with as much damage if he tries attacking while still in range.

I'm not sure that DR would apply in this case; the weapon specifies "pure magical force" which would generally ignore DR. (The DM is free to rule otherwise, of course.)

Overall, I think that the player made some good choices and has become rather effective because of it. He has a chance of taking down one equal-CR opponent, maybe, if he gets lucky. Looking at the HP/AC of appropriate challanges, he'd likely need two rounds or so against the majority of challanges. This would go up quite a bit against higher CR opponents (with their higher AC) and would easily be one-round kills against weaker opponents.

He might cause a problem if he's standing next to the longsword fighter and fireball-chucker wizard. On the other hand, a Cleric, Wizard, or even Melee Fighter with similar optimization will be just as effective at this level, if not frequently more so.

[Moriato]

(there's nothing in the Bow's writeup that prevents you using it with normal arrows, note)

In fact it specifically mentions that you can use other arrows, but then you don't get the force property of the bow.


The bow can be used to fire normal or magic arrows, but in such cases the bow does not confer its damage due to force

[JackRackham]

20d6+90-120 doesn't really seem like 'meh' to me though. Even if we limit it to only +2 on that interpretation of the composite use (because YOUR definition scares me in regards to balance of this campaign), he's still doing 20d6+70-100. What is that, minimum to max like 90-220 damage? If the thing ISNT protected from energy force missiles, that just....that just ain't right.

You're confusing +2 with 'mighty 2.' Each 'mighty' adds 100 to the base price of a composite bow (IIRC). It sounds like he's using something similar to, but different that auto-adjusts to his STR modifier (based on previous posts).