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ShneekeyTheLost
2011-07-11, 01:58 AM
Many people have asked for my assistance in building a character in the previous thread I started to prove the Stormwind Fallacy, and many others asked me how I came about generating the builds I did. Upon further consideration, I thought that I would share some of these concepts with my fellow Forumites, on the theory that knowledge shared is knowledge doubled.

Now then, before I begin, I would like to make one thing perfectly crystal clear:

The ideas and concepts presented herein do not, in any way, make a claim of being, in any way, superior, inherently or otherwise, to any other character generation methodology.

As long as you have fun with it, there is no wrong way to build a character, and I do not intend, in any way, to imply otherwise

So, with that point clarified, let us explore some of these concepts a bit, shall we?

The phrase 'optimization' is seem as something of a swear word by a significant percentage of the players of D&D. Stormwind Fallacy raises it's ugly head occasionally whenever someone even brings up the word. However, I do not think that word means what you think it means... or, at least I intend to use it differently than it has been assumed to mean, so allow me to clarify and define my usage of the word.

To 'optimize', by my usage of the word in this treatise, means to make a build that adheres to certain criteria and parameters. It does not necessarily imply making it as powerful as possible, and in fact, can implicitly mean reducing the power potential of a build, depending on the circumstances and criteria involved.

Clear? Good. Now then, there's lots of different criteria you can use to optimize with. Now, I have my own 'tier' system of optimization which more or less parallels the 'class tier chart' which many people here are familiar with, and a significant percentage disagree with for one reason or another.

So then you might have the following concepts:

Tier 1: Theoretical Optimization builds which, in reality, should never be played in an actual game. These builds are broken, or exploit loopholes in the game mechanics. This includes the likes of the immortal Pun-Pun, the Omnisifier, Cancer Mage/Hulking Hurler (for NI strength with Festering Rage), and similar TO builds.

Tier 2: Treads the line of TO and PO very carefully. Examples may include: Incantatrix Batman Wizards, Mailman-esque builds, DruidZilla (with real Planar Shepherd Action!), ClericZilla, and similar conceptual builds.

Tier 3: Embodies the concept of Practical Optimization, but goes no further. It creates a strong character who doesn't break the game, but may or may not be vastly more powerful than other characters in the party, depending on their level of optimization.

Tier 4: Embodies, to my mind, a bit of 'holding back'. Sure, I could Contingency Celerity upon my being the target of an attack or negative effect. But I choose not to, for whatever reason, employ those tactics. In fact, I'll just not use the Celerity Line at all. I could employ Travel Devotion + Scout/Ranger + Swift Hunter + Improved Manyshot to get some fairly stupid damage output with a Splitting Bow, but I'll settle for a simple Scout/Ranger Swift Hunter, without Travel Devotion or Splitting Bow.

Tier 5: Means that either the builder really wasn't familiar with the concepts of character power, or deliberately chose to make his character weak for whatever reason. It doesn't mean it isn't a playable character, or that he did something 'wrong', but it does mean that there are some mechanical flaws which makes the character decidedly sub-par. This could be anything from relying on a mechanic which isn't very powerful (such as one with plenty of foes which are immune, like my very own CW Samurai Intimidate build), or using mechanics which are sub-par, but you can sort-of make it work (see also: 'my experiences with being a Truenamer' thread), or simply choosing to make a character with mutually conflicting abilities (barbarian/caster, who can't cast while he is raging... playing any significant investment into Monk without offsetting the inherent weaknesses, playing straight Core Fighter all the way through...). This character will likely be less likely to be able to meaningfully contribute mechanically to a game, although the roleplay potential is certainly still unfettered.

Tier 6: The player went out of his way to make a character as weak as possible. A main caster with a casting stat at or under 10, for example. A Barbarian with a STR, CON, and DEX of 6. Playing a Truenamer, Healer, or CW samurai without the most extreme of optimization methods.

However, that's only one way to look at optimization. There's other ways to look at it as well.

One of the first things I, personally, always do when making a character is I try to inquire about the average optimization level of the group I'm with. Does the party consider Monks to be awesome? Great, I'll write up something on that level... probably a cleric focusing on buffing so everyone else gets a chance to shine and still stay alive in the process. Does the party have mostly Tier 3 characters? Great, I can do that too. Are we playing a Test of Spite level optimization game? Fine, I can go all out and do that too. But I don't bring a Test of Spite level of optimized character into a game with the likes of a Ranger2/Sorc4/Arcane Archer2, a straight Monk8, and a Barbarian2/Fighter6 dual-wielding Bastard Swords because he also has Weapon Specialization to make them 'uber'.

Most campaigns also have certain limits on resources available, which must, of course, be taken into consideration and may impact the level of optimization you can attain. Trying to be a more powerful melee character without access to anything outside of Core, for example, is exceedingly difficult to do, compared to the power level you can achieve when given access to the Completes and ToB.

So, these are some limitations which you might impose on yourself, although by no means is it anything like an exhaustive list.

Now that we have gone over some of the concepts, let's start looking at 'metaconcepts' involved in character generation which can help determine the power level of your character.

The first metaconcept is 'synergy'. Basically, if you have two abilities that, together, are enormously effective, that's synergy between the two abilities. For example: CW Samurai has Mass Staredown, which lets you Intimidate to Demoralize all opponents within a 30' range. It's... okay, but since Demoralize only makes opponents Shaken, it's not all that powerful. Imperious Command lets you Demoralize to make an opponent Cower for a round... but it's only single-target, and even the skill trick 'Never Outnumbered' may only be applied once per combat. But the two synergize to create a 30' radius of 'if you aren't immune to fear, you can't do anything', which is enormously more powerful than either of the two individual abilities.

The second metaconcept is 'applicability'. Taking the above into consideration, you realize that the caveat 'unless immune to fear' is a pretty large one, since many opponents you run into after CR 10 (the earliest the aforementioned combo can kick in) are either immune to mind-affecting, or mindless, or simply immune to Fear effects, or simply have so many HD that they can reliably make their save. So the number of opponents it can actually affect is remote. This means it isn't so powerful a combo after all.

A corollary to the metaconcept 'applicability' is the ability to affect someone, even if their save is made, even if it *is* a lesser effect. For example: Finger of Death is a Save or Die... but even if they save, they still take (CL)d6 damage. So your action is never truly wasted, even if it isn't as strong as you'd have liked it to be. This is what gives Grease and Web value... because no matter what (barring Freedom of Movement or similar effects), something is going to happen to the target that it doesn't want to have happen.

Another corollary to both Applicability and Synergy is being able to target multiple defenses. For example, if I have Lesser Fire Orb, I can do fire damage with a ranged touch attack, no saving throw. I'm targeting the opponent's Touch AC, and doing Fire damage. If the opponent is not resistant/immune to Fire, and if their Touch AC is low, this is a good idea. However, I should also have other abilities, such as Lesser Sonic Orb, which targets a different flavor, in the event I run into fire-immune or resistant opponents, and I should also have something that is not contested by Touch AC, in the event I run into something with high Touch AC (such as a Swordsage).

The third metaconcept is 'effectiveness'. Applying the 'shaken' effect isn't very effective as an action, because it's only a -2 penalty on a couple of things. Generally, not worth spending an action on. Applying negative levels, on the other hand, tends to be very effective against opponents, because even if it doesn't kill them, it still swings a pretty stiff nerf-bat at them. It can reduce their Caster Level to minimize the threat of a caster, reduce their Saves to let a Save or Lose effect land, reduce their BAB so they can't land a blow on you, and cause them to lose access to certain abilities dependent on various factors that are reduced.

There are more metaconcepts, but let us look at these three for now.

Let us use some examples and see how these metaconcepts apply:

A Warlock6/HFW3/Binder1 is a 10th level character. He does 9d6 damage with his Hellfire Eldritch Blast. This blast is Untyped damage which allows SR. It offers no Save, but targets Touch AC. He also has Eldritch Cone and Vitriolic Blast as invocations.

So, all of the listed abilities so far synergize well with each other to cover most of the bases. He can either target Touch AC, or can make it Ref/Half. He can either do typeless damage, which bypasses nearly all defenses but SR, or he can apply Vitriolic Blast, which ignores SR, but gives it the Acid flavor. As long as he doesn't run into any opponents both with abnormally high SR *AND* resistance/immunity to acid, he has consistent damage output.

Having said that, 9d6 is rather sub-par for level 10, even if it can be applied in nearly every situation (unless fighting a lot of Clay Golems, who have arbitrary SR and heal from Acid damage). So while it has good Synergy and amazing Applicability, it is hurt in the Effectiveness score.

That's how the metaconcepts apply to his offense. Now let's look at his defense.

Now then, one of his Lesser invocations is Brimstone Blast, because it is a prerequsite for HFW. His other two Lesser invocations are: Flee The Scene and Fell Flight. He also has, as Least invocations, See The Unseen and Entropic Warding. He also generally carries wands of Grease and Glitterdust.

So, he is always Flying, which helps negate melee attacks as a threat. He also can See Invis, which synergies well with his Wand of Glitterdust, that outlines invisible opponents, even if they make the Will save vs Blind, and alert his allies of the invisible threat. He also has the ability to Dimension Door as a SLA, which also leaves behind a major image that might fool an opponent into thinking you are still there.

He's also immune to being tracked by virtue of Entropic Warding, which synergies nicely with being in Flight, since the majority of the attacks targeting him will be Ranged attacks (as melee attacks cannot reach him), which he has a 20% concealment miss chance against. This shuts down precision-based damage, due to concealment, and gives him a flat percentage chance of not even needing to worry about AC.

The only attacks which he is weak against would be those targeting his weak saves, probably Fort would be his biggest vulnerability, since he is likely to have a higher Dex than Con. If he had Dark One's Own Luck, he could do something about that, which would again be good synergy.

So to recap, his defense has okay Synergy, good Effectiveness and Applicability. This puts him on a better footing than most melee builds, who would not be flying consistently at this level, and needs to be in melee reach to damage opponents anyways, although they would likely have better damage output at this level.

Now, let's look at his Utility.

This is really where he suffers. He's got Grease and Glitterdust wands. Maybe he's also got a Knock wand. But other than that, his utilty is exceedingly limited. He can fly, and teleport short ranges, which can be of use. If other party members are lighter than Light encumbrance, he can bring one along. Otherwise, he can fly across hazards, either bringing allies with him, or perhaps a rope so others can follow behind. The only real way he has utility is if he decides to go Party Face, using the other abilities Naberious grants in Taking 10 on various social skills, getting the Least Invocation Beguiling Influence to heighten his rolls. That would at least have *some* synergy.

Other than that, though... not so much. So no synergistic abilities, and poor applicability and effectiveness.

So, this is a viable build if the party is needing some damage output that will affect virtually everything they run up against, that can even hit flying and invisible opponents without worrying about it, with the option to do area-effect damage output. He can hold his own in a fight... he's probably wearing a chain shirt enchanted with something, entropic warding, and he's in the air which severely mitigates the effectiveness of melee attacks. But the party will need someone with more utility to balance out his almost complete lack of it, at least until he gets more magical toys to expand his ability. So he's a reasonably optimized character for most games, perfectly playable, unlikely to get himself killed out of hand, and carries his load.

Now we look at an 'ubercharger'.

Offensive, he's got okay utility. His attack rolls are such that he's probably going to hit what he can get up close and personal with. He can make a full attack on a charge, and probably drop anything he hits.

His defenses, though... suck. His AC is likely negative numbers. Only his Fort save is likely to be anything worth writing about. So he's relying on his massive Hit Point total to keep him alive, and hope that he doesn't get with any Reflex or Will based Save or Lose effects.

His utility, again, sucks. He hits things... and that's about it. Maybe he's got Intimidating Rage + Never Outnumbered for some battlefield control. Toss in Imperious Command, and unless opponents are immune to Fear, they've got a problem. BUT, that's a significant character investment for a one-trick pony, particularly when you've already got a LOT of feats already 'dedicated' to this build. I don't know if he's got room for it all in there.

Now, using these metaconcepts and applying them to a Batman Wizard...

He has amazing synergy with his abilities. He can apply his Metamagic to any spell he knows. And he knows a lot of them. He has phenomenal applicability, with a spell for every occasion, including 'no save just lose' abilities on hand, if necessary. And he has outrageous Effectiveness, being able to lock down entire encounters with a single action.

His defenses are just as solid. Contingency Celerity... Foresight... Shape Change into a Dire Tortoise... you simply can't touch him without him letting you. You can't pin him down, because he can simply teleport away, assuming he doesn't simply teleport YOU to somewhere... inconvenient. You're *not* going to hit him. No, not even then. He simply has too many 'no' buttons at his disposal.

His utility, unlike the previous two examples, is also simply cosmic. He's got everything, including his bat-shark-repellent. He can trivialize mazes with teleportation or even plane shifting. Doors are non-issues. Everything from Knock to Shape Stone to make your own door to teleportation or etherealness through... he's got a dozen different ways to do anything he wants to do.

So, maybe next time you want to make a character, keep some of these ideas in mind. I'll probably expand further on this when I have time, and would welcome others of the community to add in other metaconcepts, as there are literally dozens of them floating around, I'm just too indisposed at the moment to come up with them.

DeAnno
2011-07-11, 04:21 AM
One thing that you rarely see a lot of discussion about in 3.5e is how full parties (as opposed to single characters) function as optimized entities. While 4e has its heavy focus on enabling and its various party shenanigans like the "Radiant Mafia", 3.5e characters are almost always seen in a bubble.

Talking about the difference between the Warlock and the Charger and what they offer a party is especially interesting, because one or the other might be better in various parties. A party with problems inflicting large amounts of damage when necessary but with lots of resources to buff and heal (perhaps a group of rather low-optimization casters) would probably do very well with the charger, using him as a font to pump damage through and keeping him alive with battlefield healing. The charger in that situation could turn a lot of combats from long grinds into quicker less resource intensive skirmishes.

On the other hand, a party of moderately optimized melee characters (maybe a rogue/assassin of some sort, some ToB, perhaps some Incarnum) would do very well to have the Warlock. His use of wands, flight, and other arcane powers aren't easily available to the party, and he's able to take care of himself in a fight with minimal babysitting and contribute decent amounts of damage to the proceedings. He can even engage or expose some enemies that may be difficult for the rest of the party due to range, invisibility, or damage reduction.

Both parties are probably around Tier 3-4, and though the Charger seems to be a weaker character all together, he can be much more useful then the Warlock for certain groups.

Another factor that's important to consider with character creation and how well characters work is the style of the campaign and the sorts of challenges the PCs need to often overcome (and which of these challenges tend to be more difficult).

I played one 3.5 campaign with a Tier 2 party that had essentially optimized itself into a SpecOps Squad (Indomitable Healbot Spontaneous Cleric, Charging Frenzied Berzerker, Daggerspell Wizard Rogue, The Mailman). We were typically inserted into a highly dangerous situation by NPCs; such as raiding a Prison guarded by an army of robots, or going into Pelor's dreams to distract him from grand theft. In those situations, we would proceed to tear to shreds everything that got in the way of our objective (these things were often very very tough), accomplish that objective, and then escape to a secure facility made available to us by our sponsors. We rarely had to worry about finding out where in the world the Macguffin had gone, or convincing King Elrond to lower his Dimension Lock ward, or preparing an impressive fortress to protect us from our many and various enemies.

While this party was possibly among the most lethal ever assembled in a straight up fight, we were much worse at pretty much everything else than you would expect from a Party of Tier 2 characters. In another campaign, we might have had large difficulties in getting anything of use done, with only the Daggerspell Mage really capable of improvising that much out of combat utility, and him gimped 2 or 3 caster levels at that by his build.

So in the end, longwindedness aside, a character, or even a party, is nowhere near the island that one might think he could be reading the forums. Certain characters will do much better or worse with different teammates (even with different teammates of similar levels of optimization), and even the party as a whole is extremely dependent on game conditions, objectives, and even monster flavor.

ShneekeyTheLost
2011-07-11, 02:49 PM
Well, the metaconcepts can apply to party creation as much as individual character creation.

Having synergistic abilities among the party can significantly boost the power level of that party (having multiple melee-type damage dealers, combo with a buff-zilla with GMW/MV/etc... then combo that with a DFI Bard... you've got people with a stupid sick damage output, who *ARE* hitting, and turning opponents into a fine red mist).

The metaconcept of applicability certainly applies to party concepts as well, with respect to 'do we have all the bases covered'.

And, of course, the metaconcept of effectiveness also comes into play. We wouldn't want a party with a 'dead weight' character who can't really do anything, can we?

The Gilded Duke
2011-07-11, 04:20 PM
I have a method not too dissimilar, usually when building a character I try to have a variety of attacks, so that they will always be able to target their opponent's weak points. This is much easier with casters, and I find it easiest with Psions.

Get some Crystal Shards for No SR touch attacks
Ego whip for Low cha / low will save characters
Energy Ray for Fortitude and Reflex

But you can even do this with melee characters. Made a Samurai for a pathfinder game. Had the main character go the combat expertise disarm route, while the mount went the bull rush route. Eventually going to pick up Overrun and Improved Grab.

While not a caster it still has a variety of attacks:
Damage vs single target (Axe/Lance and Challenge)
Disarm vs humanoid combatant
Grab vs Spellcasters component pouch or Cleric's holy symbol
Overrun and Bull Rush as Battlefield Control

Then for Defenses:
High AC, High Fort, Fort and Will Rerolls
Weakness is of course reflex saves

It seems a lot tougher to build a character with defenses against everything, then a character with a variety of offensive moves.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2011-07-11, 06:16 PM
So how do the tiers interact? If the characters are T5 but the encounters are T4, should CR be adjusted?

ShneekeyTheLost
2011-07-11, 06:53 PM
So how do the tiers interact? If the characters are T5 but the encounters are T4, should CR be adjusted?

The tiers are a rather arbitrary concept, intended to present the general idea, not as any kind of a game mechanics alteration.

CR should not be adjusted, however the opponents might conform to approximately the same tier as the players, either 'played up' or 'played down', depending on the circumstances in order to entertain the players without WTFPWNing them or providing them with monty hauling.