[Pathfinder] Optimizing a Spy Master.

[Ninjapanda]

Greetings again!

A few days ago I was asked to play the pre written campaing "Kingmaker". As this will be my first time actually playing Pathfinder and not just DM it at low lvls, I thought I would get some help from you guys.

My plan was not to build a groutesque combat monster but instead focus on the oh-so underdeveloped social skills that is DnD/Pathfinder. I do this simply beacuse I find a social based character more fun to play rather than just a greedy rogue that stabs his friends, loots the treasure and marries the dragon...

Race: Elf
Class: Rogue
Str: 10
Dex: 16
Con: 11
Int: 18 Will most likely be the partys skill monkey
Wis: 15
Cha: 17
Feat:Deciteful (prereq for Master Spy)

Rest of the party will be: Sorc, Magus, some kind of fighter, and one that I don't know yet.

My plan is to be a Rogue with the Spy template from Advanced players guide. Her job will be infiltration via bluff and disguise and being the party face.

Level progression:
1-7: Rogue
8-17 Maser Spy

What can I do to maximize the effectiveness of a Master Spy in Pathfinder? Optimizing a social character is totally new to me i terms of feats and such, the only feat I know I will take is Iron Will since it is also a pre req for Master Spy.

So if anyone has any experience from playing a Master Spy please enlighten me!

[The Gilded Duke]

Well with the route you have setup, some useful rogue talents to pick up might be Coax Information, which will let you trick people into being friendly to you temporarily. Also quick disguise will let you change up your disguises much faster. Full round action for minor details (not changing race or gender) is amazing, and it is also significantly faster for everything else, 2 minutes vs up to 30.

Although master spy does get that later, but it still takes a number of minutes and is at penalties.

Overall looks like a pretty good setup, the most important thing to remember though is to pick up Linguistics. In addition to the usefulness of knowing how to read and write in a variety of languages linguistics is the new forgery skill. To make a forgery you roll linguistics, and to detect a forgery you also roll linguistics.

It isn't that hard to get a very high linguistics roll to make forgeries that would fool everyone but a trained wizard.

Also have you considered Half-Elf? They get most of the elven immunity, +2 to stat of choice with no penalties, skill focus for free, and can pick two favored classes.

Starting out with Deceitful and Skill Focus Bluff could be pretty potent.

Also, for playing a social character, you might want to check out bards, they gain access to illusions and enchantments, which fit perfectly with the character, and they have strong social skills. There are also a series of Archetypes which may be more useful then a spy rogue.

The real star though is Versatile Performance. As they gain levels bards can use their perform checks in place of other skills, for example Perform Acting instead of Disguise or Bluff.

If for example you started as a Half-Elf Geisha Bard, you could have skill focus Perform Acting, that feat that gives +2 on two different perform checks. Geisha's gain half class levels on a specific perform check, diplomacy, knowledge nobility.

By level 7 you would have:
Perform Acting 7 ranks + 3 cha +3 skill focus +2 perform feat +3 Geisha for a
+18 roll before equipment.

also remember masterwork tool +2 for 50 gp.

Other useful bard archetypes for social characters:

Street Performer - bluff, disguise, knowledge local, slight of hand, and some diplomacy and intimidate usage bonuses. Can bluff to temporarily improve attitude as a standard action (only way I know of to get this) And has bardic music sanctuaries and hide allies.

Sea Singer - Hidden gem, most of the wind based stuff doesn't come up that much, but it replaces the weaker bard options so it doesn't matter. They make the best forgers ever, half level bonus on Linguistics (also some knowledge skills) Also, they gain a parrot or monkey familiar. Familiars use your skill ranks. Have your monkey UMD or your parrot bluff.

Sandman - Acts like a weaker Spell Thief, can put people to sleep that he has fascinated, concealed spellcasting during performances, bonus dc against flat footed creatures, sneak attack, half level to bluff, slight of hand, and stealth checks.

[Ninjapanda]

Very good information. I did not know that Linguistics was the new forgery so that will come in handy =)

My original plan was actually to pose as a bard (not wanting people to know I am a rogue =)) But the bard might be a better class to have as base class.
You mentioned Geisha... where can I find that?

Thanks alot for the information! I will most likely post a second draft of the character when I've revamped her =)

[The Gilded Duke]

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard/archetypes/paizo---bard-archetypes/geisha

They lose the normal armor and weapon proficiency, and the ability to cast in armor, so they don't work too well as melee, or possibly even ranged combatants. They do gain one monk weapon proficiency though, which might be useful somehow.

They also lose bardic knowledge, but their skill bonuses seem more useful in the end.

Another thing to note is the Tea Ceremony isn't the only way you can use your bardic music, you can still use it normally. The Tea Ceremony though is pretty effective for pre-buffing if you have the time. Use it right before you enter the dungeon / your mage teleports you in.

Nothing stops you from pre-buffing with Tea Ceremony, and then in combat activating a new bardic music effect.

Also scribe scroll is useful. You don't spend xp on making magic items anymore. For first or second level spells you can scribe them in two hours, if you haven't used all your spells you could scribe a scroll before you go to sleep.

Also new with pathfinder, cantrips can be used at will and bards actually have some good ones.

[grarrrg]

Thoughts on Race:
Half-Elf (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/core-races/half-elf): You can trade in "adaptability" to gain a second chance on botched Diplomacy checks. And you can spend your Favored Class bonus to gain +1/2 on certain Bluff and certain Diplomacy checks.

Human (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/core-races/human):+2 any stat (Dex), and +1 skill point per level is basically Elf stats without the Con penalty. Plus you get the bonus feat, and can spend your Favored Class towards a new Rogue talent.


Thoughts on Class.
Rogue is definitely the preferred entry for Master Spy.
But Rogue 7 doesn't offer you all that much. Might I recommend instead a 1 level dip of...

Ranger: still 6+skills, a boost to Fort saves, Handle Animal skill, and Wild Empathy. You'd basically become a party face for Animals too. Can also go "Trapper" Ranger and gain back Trapfinding/Disable Device.

Inquisitor: Still 6+skills, a boost to Fort saves, a few minor spells. You also get a Domain (abilities, not the spells), pick a Domain that offers additional bonuses.
Knowledge gives all Knowledges as class skills.
Protection gives +1 all saves.
Travel gives +10/ft. movement.
There are other Domains with bonuses, but these would be the most useful for you.

[Wagadodo]

The Kingmaker Prewritten campaign is defiantly designed for a good Social character to shine. It was one of my favorite Pathfinder modules to run of all time. It had plenty of combat, plus plenty of political and social items to allow for differing playing styles to work.

Just one suggestion, don't build your character to the exclusion for all social, make it the general theme, but you will be hitting things with a point object sooner or later, but your social skills could turn the tide of the battle. As my group discovered when they when for an encounter with straight combat instead of social and had a total party wipe.

[The Gilded Duke]

Yeah, social isn't going to work on everything in that campaign path... but a lot of things that it will not work on are vulnerable to illusions. Most mindless creatures can't make will saves to disbelieve, and most animals have low will saves.

I'm running a game with a save vs sleep witch, and a separate game with an illusion focused Sandman bard those two probably contribute more to the group then anybody else. Although the alchemist shines nicely against sr enemies.