Shortening the Tier Gap [Fix?]

[Kansaschaser]

So, most people have come to the conclusion that the tier 1 classes are the best because they have access to spells.

In 4th edition, they made it so that "Rituals" can be performed by anyone, regardless of class. So that gives classes like Fighters and Barbarians some useful things they can do outside of combat.

Why not do the same thing with 3.5 or 3.X?

EXAMPLE: Improved Fighter (you could do this for all tier 4, 5, and 6 classes)
At level 1, the fighter must pick a school of magic (other than universal) and an attribute to go with that school, such as Strength or Constitution. When the fighter reaches 3rd level, he/she gets to pick two spells from that school. These spells can be chosen from the Wizard/Sorcerer and/or Cleric spell lists. The fighter can cast each spell once per day. The caster level equals their base attack bonus and the spellcasting is dependent on the attribute they chose at 1st level. Every odd level, the fighter picks two more spells from that school. They can cast these two new spells once per day.

Sure, the fighter could pick combat spells, but they are already good at combat. If the person is smart, they would pick spells that can do things that they can't already do. I think this could be used to improve the tiers of fighters.

[erikun]

So my 3rd level Gnome Fighter could pick up Greater Shadow Evocation and Shades, and duplicate any 7th level or less evocation/conjuration each once per day?

On a more serious note: Could you pick the same spells again, for more castings per day? Is it intentional to apply ASF when giving spellcasting to a heavy-armor wearer?

I am also not sure that this solves the problem entirely. There is still the issue of Wizards dominating fights, rendering the damage that Fighters deal moot. This means that a Fighter can act like a Wizard a handful of times a day, while the Wizard can act like a Wizard dozens of times a day while also being better in a fight.

[Gnaeus]

Yes, if you do that it will increase the tier of that (any low tier) class, probably to about low tier 3.

I don't really see, however, how making every non-magical class into a specialist wizard-lite really improves the game. Yes, it does reduce imbalance. Of course, so does limiting fighter to a 2 level dip and requiring that the rest of the levels be a T1 casting class. In other words, for players who want to play a gish, 3.5 already lets you make a gish, which will be T3+. For players who do not want to play a gish, what you are proposing does not sound like it will help.

And funny enough, it still works out badly for the (improved) monk, whose 3/4 BAB makes him worse at spellcasting than the (improved) fighter.

[Kansaschaser]

So my 3rd level Gnome Fighter could pick up Greater Shadow Evocation and Shades, and duplicate any 7th level or less evocation/conjuration each once per day?

On a more serious note: Could you pick the same spells again, for more castings per day? Is it intentional to apply ASF when giving spellcasting to a heavy-armor wearer?

I am also not sure that this solves the problem entirely. There is still the issue of Wizards dominating fights, rendering the damage that Fighters deal moot. This means that a Fighter can act like a Wizard a handful of times a day, while the Wizard can act like a Wizard dozens of times a day while also being better in a fight.

Nope, the caster level equals your base attack bonus. So if you are 3rd level, you get access to spells of 1st or 2nd level. At 5th level, you get access to 3rd level spells. I guess I should have made that more clear.

I guess you could pick the same spell more than once to be able to cast it multiple times per day. Why not? Classes that give armor proficiency do not have a problem casting spells in armor.

It's not meant to solve it entirely. It's just meant to shorten the gap some. We are not making Fighters into a Tier 1 class, but we may be able to bump them up to a Tier 3 maybe.

[FMArthur]

Mundanes already have to acquire magic to stay relevant later. This doesn't so much solve the problem as fold other classes into the problem.

It also has some of the feel of homogenization that is one of the main reasons people chose to stick with 3.5 over 4e.

[Kansaschaser]

Yes, if you do that it will increase the tier of that (any low tier) class, probably to about low tier 3.

I don't really see, however, how making every non-magical class into a specialist wizard-lite really improves the game. Yes, it does reduce imbalance. Of course, so does limiting fighter to a 2 level dip and requiring that the rest of the levels be a T1 casting class. In other words, for players who want to play a gish, 3.5 already lets you make a gish, which will be T3+. For players who do not want to play a gish, what you are proposing does not sound like it will help.

And funny enough, it still works out badly for the (improved) monk, whose 3/4 BAB makes him worse at spellcasting than the (improved) fighter.

Even with only 3/4th casting compared to the Fighter, I think giving them some more flexibility with spellcasting could still improve them by at least 1 tier level.


Mundanes already have to acquire magic to stay relevant later. This doesn't so much solve the problem as fold other classes into the problem.

It also has some of the feel of homogenization that is one of the main reasons people chose to stick with 3.5 over 4e.

You are probably right. It does sound a lot like "homogenization". It kind of reminds me of watching The Incredibles last night on TV. Syndrom said "..and when everyone's super, no one will be."

[Erloas]

I'll start with the fact that I have very little experience but I've been following the ideas and trends of the games for a while.

You seem to be wanting to "fix" these classes in a generic sense, for all games all the time and not for a specific campaign?

The "give everyone spells" type of balance, which seems to be common in the non-base classes I don't really like. Rather then addressing the problem its openly acknowledging the problem and then giving everyone a bit of the power so it doesn't stand out at much.

I think in some cases the easiest way to make the lower tier classes come across better is by removing some of the utility from the upper tier classes that lets them take over the same roles as the lower tier classes. And it seems that the lower tier classes, their "thing" tends to be combat. And maybe its inexperience, but I think a lot of the tier thing comes in at higher levels when buff effects last longer and a caster has enough spells per day to buff up to fight as well as have utility spells.
I actually think removing, or even maybe just changing the level or duration of many of the buff and control spells will let a caster continue to have a lot of utility while making them less of a one-man killing machine in combat. And once they loose the ability to do everything on their own and have to start relying on the combat oriented classes to survive battles (like at the earlier levels) then the fighters gain a lot more worth in a group situation.

The casters have always been defined as a "glass cannon" sort of design, but they keep the cannon and gained the abilities to make the glass part of it irrelevant.

Because in the end it all comes down to roles in a party based system. And the problem isn't that the fighter has no role, the fighter has a very specific role, as does the skill based classes, the problem is that the caster starts out in one role and then gains the spells to do all of those other roles very well. Once the T1 classes can't do everything and go back to a more limited role in the party then the other classes gain use as their role is now left open for them to do once the T1 class has left it.

But of course that is a nerf approach rather then boost approach, but I don't see how you can effectively boost many of the classes without giving every class the ability to function fully independent of others, which isn't what you want in a party based system.

[Kansaschaser]

I'll start with the fact that I have very little experience but I've been following the ideas and trends of the games for a while.

You seem to be wanting to "fix" these classes in a generic sense, for all games all the time and not for a specific campaign?

The "give everyone spells" type of balance, which seems to be common in the non-base classes I don't really like. Rather then addressing the problem its openly acknowledging the problem and then giving everyone a bit of the power so it doesn't stand out at much.

I think in some cases the easiest way to make the lower tier classes come across better is by removing some of the utility from the upper tier classes that lets them take over the same roles as the lower tier classes. And it seems that the lower tier classes, their "thing" tends to be combat. And maybe its inexperience, but I think a lot of the tier thing comes in at higher levels when buff effects last longer and a caster has enough spells per day to buff up to fight as well as have utility spells.
I actually think removing, or even maybe just changing the level or duration of many of the buff and control spells will let a caster continue to have a lot of utility while making them less of a one-man killing machine in combat. And once they loose the ability to do everything on their own and have to start relying on the combat oriented classes to survive battles (like at the earlier levels) then the fighters gain a lot more worth in a group situation.

The casters have always been defined as a "glass cannon" sort of design, but they keep the cannon and gained the abilities to make the glass part of it irrelevant.

Because in the end it all comes down to roles in a party based system. And the problem isn't that the fighter has no role, the fighter has a very specific role, as does the skill based classes, the problem is that the caster starts out in one role and then gains the spells to do all of those other roles very well. Once the T1 classes can't do everything and go back to a more limited role in the party then the other classes gain use as their role is now left open for them to do once the T1 class has left it.

But of course that is a nerf approach rather then boost approach, but I don't see how you can effectively boost many of the classes without giving every class the ability to function fully independent of others, which isn't what you want in a party based system.

Yeah, I don't like to "nerf" classes if at all possible. I'd rather boost classes that need help.

[Erloas]

But if your baseline for balance is the most powerful classes now (since you aren't going to be nerfing any of them at all) then you're only option is to make every other class highly powered and able to handle almost anything that would come up almost entirely on their own as well. That really doesn't leave any real differences between classes when your target is to "be able to do anything."

Given you aren't trying to make everyone tier 1, you are trying to make the tier 4-6 classes more like tier 2-3.
I think the best approach is to simply let the lower tier characters be the best characters they can be. Maybe give the lower tier classes and extra 5 points in the point buy system, give them a few more skill points per level and then give them a few free utility skills (maybe in the form of 2-4 extra traits and the traits have to be skill based, such as the ones that let them take a knowledge skill or diplomacy). Then I would probably up the feat count some. He might be a lowly fighter, but at least he can be the best fighter he can be and can have enough feats to have more versatility rather then the basic "required" feats and a few "optional" feats that give the class/character a little bit of uniqueness.
Of course its not just fighters, but its the same basic idea with most classes. They do something well, just enable them to be the best they possibly can be at what the class is supposed to do in the first place.

[Gavinfoxx]

Why not just use classes that are all closer to tier 3 in the first place?

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=174628

[Eclipse]

I think it's essential to nerf spellcasters hard if you want to close the tier gap. I don't think this is strictly necessary, as games I've run and played in with people not super-optimizing their characters have turned out fine. However, for those with issues in high op games, nerfing casters into filling a couple roles instead of all roles seems the way to go.

I envision something like this. It's a quick and dirty system off the top of my head, and I'm sure needs tweaking.

Also note an exception is made for cantrips and universal spells, which all spellcasting classes can cast if they are on that classes list.

Full prepared casters: gain the benefits of focused specialization, but can only use one school of magic. This makes them highly specialized in their field, and as an added bonus, makes full casters extremely varied. Clerics gain all domain spells from their chosen domains, even those outside of their chosen school.

Full spontaneous casters: gain benefits of focused specialization in one school, and able to cast spells from one more school as normal. 6 banned schools. Spontaneous casters know an extremely limited number of spells anyway, so having a little more variety should be ok.

Other casters remain unchanged, as typically only full casters have serious issues with breaking the game.

If you feel that's too harsh, another variant I like would be to introduce old school spell memorization rules. Memorizing or otherwise regaining spells requires 10 minutes per spell level replenished. This makes going nova a more dicey proposition, especially in dungeon crawls and time sensitive missions, and forces casters to be more careful in their use of magic. Perhaps, to represent their greater inherent natural power, spontaneous casters only require 5 minutes per spell level replenished.

It would take a fully depleted wizard 30 hours to replenish all of his spells (not including bonus spells of any kind).
It would take a fully depleted sorcerer 22.5 hours to replenish all of his spells (not including bonus spells of any kind).

In short, if you nova, you aren't getting all of your spells back until you have downtime, so you'll be operating at non-peak versatility for awhile afterward. Also, it takes and hour and a half to replenish a single ninth level spell slot. I think that's fair for the power they hold.

[Dsurion]

May as well head on over to The Gaming Den. Frank and K attempt to do more than just give the Fighter some spells...

[Gavinfoxx]

Yea Frank and K try to get EVERYONE up to Tier 1 / Tier 2...

Which, while viable, is certainly an approach that many people don't take!

[Kansaschaser]

May as well head on over to The Gaming Den. Frank and K attempt to do more than just give the Fighter some spells...

The Gaming Den? Never heard of it.


Yea Frank and K try to get EVERYONE up to Tier 1 / Tier 2...

Which, while viable, is certainly an approach that many people don't take!

I'm not certain I want everyone to be a teir 1 and/or 2 class. That would give so much power to the Fighter's of the world that I think all my players would jump ship on their spellcasters and healers to play a Fighter.

[Dsurion]

Then you can read up and form your own opinion :smallsmile:

http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=33294

[Gavinfoxx]

Here's a PDF of the Frank and K Tomes

http://sites.google.com/site/middendorfproject/frank_k_0.5.1.pdf
or
http://turing.bard.edu/~mk561/frank_k_0.5.1.pdf

[Seerow]

Yea Frank and K try to get EVERYONE up to Tier 1 / Tier 2...

Which, while viable, is certainly an approach that many people don't take!

Frank and K don't believe in the tier system. If you bring it up on TGD you'll get laughed at. They disagree with a lot of the class placements on it, and because of that they ridicule the system as a whole.

If you actually look at their classes, they're at a solid tier 3 level at best. While the classes are made better, they don't have the ability to rewrite reality like a Wizard/Sorc, and thus fall short of tier 2.

Hell if I remember right the big thing they gave fighters was the ability to interrupt anything that anyone else is doing once or twice per round. While that is impressive and pretty cool, it's not making a tier 1 fighter.

[Kansaschaser]

Here's a PDF of the Frank and K Tomes

http://sites.google.com/site/middendorfproject/frank_k_0.5.1.pdf
or
http://turing.bard.edu/~mk561/frank_k_0.5.1.pdf

Oh...my...gawd...

That's some heavy changes there. I thought what I suggested was drastic. What I did was NOTHING! Nothing compared to what they did.

Ok, where is the emoticon that shows my jaw hitting the floor? I need to insert one of them above.