Are there rules for dismemberment?

[ImperatorK]

It can be an optional rule.

[hamishspence]

I think the DMG mentions optional rules about specific body parts being damaged- but it's still a "make it yourself" thing.

[Telonius]

No specific rules that I know of, but here are a couple fairly obvious ones:

- Loss of arm, means no using that arm for any purpose. No two-handed weapons, no dual-wielding. Can't use that arm for a Ring slot. Any set of Bracers that need both in order to function, don't work. Can't use bows. Can shoot a one-handed crossbow, but not reload it.

- Loss of leg, means you can only crawl. If you have a crutch, stand and move at half speed, but you can't use the crutch arm for anything but a crutch.

- Loss of one eye would probably give a penalty to spot checks, possibly to ranged attacks. Loss of both gives you a constant Blinded condition.

You could probably have some rules for prosthesis (peg legs, false hands, and the like). Grafts are always a possibility.

[ImperatorK]

I don't need houserules or homebrew. I'm looking for official (optional) rules. One guys argument in a discussion is that there are no rules for dismemberment, so it is impossible. :smallannoyed:
I said "Even if there aren't any rules you always have Rule 0" and also I pointed him to Regeneration ability and Regenerate spell. Despite that I still would want to find a real rule.
EDIT: Now his argument is that you can re-attach lost limbs, but there are still no rules for dismemberment, so it's still impossible. :smallconfused: I'm baffled by his absurd logic.

[Telonius]

Digging a little bit into BoVD, there is something under the torture rules that could qualify. "Scalpel/Flenser" (p.39) specifically mentions removing a digit.

Flesh to Stone says:
"If the statue resulting from this spell is broken or damaged, the subject (if ever returned to its original state) has similar damage or deformities."

This could reasonably be interpreted as including loss of limbs, and "breaking an object" would cover it.

[CTrees]

There are also rules for creatures like Hydras and removing their heads (via sunder). Unfortunately, these really don't work as a general case, because if the rule could be expanded... Suddenly a sunder-specialist fighter (or similar melee build) is TRULY frightening.

[ImperatorK]

Okay. Lets forget about specific rules. Either there are none or they're too obscure.
How would you argue with someone that says "There are no rules for dismemberment, so it is impossible"?

[Alleine]

Okay. Lets forget about specific rules. Either there are none or they're too obscure.
How would you argue with someone that says "There are no rules for dismemberment, so it is impossible"?

"Oh really? That's funny because *roll dice* You just lost an arm"
:smallamused:

Just try and get other people in the group to agree with you and see if you can all come up with a logical argument or something. Or point out rule zero in the DMG and tell him you can make it up.

[ImperatorK]

"Oh really? That's funny because *roll dice* You just lost an arm"
:smallamused:

Just try and get other people in the group to agree with you and see if you can all come up with a logical argument or something. Or point out rule zero in the DMG and tell him you can make it up.
Some other guy said:

To point out the obvious, when your argument is Rule 0 in a rule debate, you know you have no more argument.
Here's the discussion:
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=11801.msg421666#msg421666

[Divide by Zero]

Or point out rule zero in the DMG and tell him you can make it up.

This. The rules cannot cover everything (or else you end up with FATAL). Some things are just up to the DM.

[ImperatorK]

This. The rules cannot cover everything (or else you end up with FATAL). Some things are just up to the DM.
Well, that's not enough for some people. Here's the discussion:
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=11801.msg421666#msg421666

[TroubleBrewing]

Rule 0 is a real rule, though. :smallconfused:

If he still disagrees, DM a game and remove all of his limbs.

In game, out of game, whatever works.

[Kaeso]

There's a third party rulebook called torn asunder that deals with things like dismemberment, decapitation, critical hits etc. If you roll particularly good, you cuold kill anything with a discernable anatomy in one blow. Be aware that this is a two way street though.

[Alleine]

Some other guy said:

Here's the discussion:
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=11801.msg421666#msg421666

Oh, you're talking about a discussion on a different forum. They seem to be talking about RAW while you're talking about what makes sense and what happens in your game specifically. Rule 0 has no place in RAW discussions because it isn't concrete, and changes depending on the person/group. However, these people also seem to be ignoring the fact that you mentioned it would work in your game(aka, this discussion is no longer about strict RAW), and also they're being total jerks. I suggest you just leave the thread and go have fun.

[ImperatorK]

That what I was arguing couldn't be decided with RAW, because there are no rules for it. Everything they stated was RAW. I even said that their trick is AWESOME, but I also warned that it is based on an interpretation of something that's not covered by rules and it can go both ways. I even changed my mind regarding the trick (now I would interpret it as working without any dismemberment), but the argument is still there - in many games it won't work and there's no RAW that can prove the GM wrong.

[Telonius]

Okay. Lets forget about specific rules. Either there are none or they're too obscure.
How would you argue with someone that says "There are no rules for dismemberment, so it is impossible"?

"There are also no rules for overeating, so it's impossible for a person to have any ill effects from consuming an entire elephant."

[TroubleBrewing]

"There are also no rules for overeating, so it's impossible for a person to have any ill effects from consuming an entire elephant."

Perform: Eating Contest? :smallbiggrin:

But seriously. "The rules don't say I can't do it, therefore I can" is a similar argument. And equally flawed.

[ImperatorK]

But seriously. "The rules don't say I can't do it, therefore I can" is a similar argument. And equally flawed.
But I'm not using it. :smallwink:

[noparlpf]

I think I remember reading something about damaging specific body parts in either the DMG or Unearthed Arcana. The DMG II would be another good place to look.

[ImperatorK]

I didn't find them, but I might not have looked hard enough.

[noparlpf]

Ah, I was thinking of the Injury variant and the Vitality and Wound Points variant. Never mind. I still feel like I've seen a variant where specific body parts get injured. I'm going to keep looking.

[Rogue Shadows]

Ah, I was thinking of the Injury variant and the Vitality and Wound Points variant. Never mind. I still feel like I've seen a variant where specific body parts get injured. I'm going to keep looking.

Hmm...there is one in one of the Revised Star Wars rulebooks...I forget which, though.

That's not D&D, but it is an official d20, WotC produduct.

[noparlpf]

Hmm...there is one in one of the Revised Star Wars rulebooks...I forget which, though.

That's not D&D, but it is an official d20, WotC product.

That's definitely not what I was thinking of. I've only played 3.5.

[Larpus]

Well, dismemberment is really a case of Rule 0 and somewhat suspension disbelief.

Sure, there are no rules for that, but it doesn't mean it's impossible or simply can't happen; a good argument in this particular case is that since there are no rules about targeting specific body parts and how to calculate their HP, then a sleeping character can die from being somehow held unable to take action and have a single part of his body be constantly attacked.

Suspension disbelief wasn't and never will be a good measuring tool for a D&D game, however if someone constantly attacks specifically someone else's arm, it's obvious that person 1 wants to either amputate or simply badly debilitate person 2's arm and that is supposed to happen at some point without killing said character.

Anyway, if it helps, my DM uses this as a houserule regarding amputation:
The rule is meant for humanoids with 4 limbs, but can be adapted:

- First, losing X amount of HP doesn't amputate someone, the only way to do so is to continuously attack a specific body part and deplete its HP.

- Called attacks can't be made as full attacks and all give an AoO to the defender, if the AoO is successful, the attack reverts to a normal attack.

- Ranged called attacks are made at an additional -4.

- Divide the creature's HP by 2, half of it "is" the torso's HP. The commas are there since the torso can't be called out as it's the default attack target and counts as having the full HP.

- Get the remaining half and divide by 9, 1/9 of it is the head's HP, depleting the head's HP faints the creature, bringing it to -1/9 kills the creature. However the head is the most protected part of anyone's body, so called attacks on the head are made at -8.

- Of the remaining 8/9, each 2/9 is the HP of a limb, depleting it means the limb cannot be used anymore, making it go to -2/9 amputates it. Called attacks on limbs are made at -4 for legs and -6 for arms if the target uses weapons/shields.

- Loss of an arm means that it can no longer be used. If it has a shield its AC is reduced from the creature's AC, if it has an attack it can no longer be used (using the 'bad' arm counts as the rules for TWF, except the 'good' arm gets no attacks) and spellcasters take twice to cast spell with somatic effects (free -> swift -> standard -> full action -> 2 turns). I also gives a -5 to most Str and Dex skills.

- Loss of both arms render attacks and spellcasting impossible. It also gives a -15 to most Str and Dex skills.

- Having a disabled leg cuts movement by 1/3, amputation of said leg cuts it instead to 2/3. Also, both give a -5 penalty to most Str and Dex skills.

- Losing both legs makes moving a full round action at 1/3 speed. Also, it gives a -15 to most Str and Dex skills.

- Having a member amputate incurs a DC 20 Will or Fort check (whichever is higher), which increases by +5 for every member lost; a failed check makes the subject faint. It also give the character a 'bleeding' condition until treated with a DC 15 Heal check (+5 for each extra lost limb).

- The bleeding causes the character to lose 1/20 of HP each turn rounded down (min 1).

- A Cure X Wounds can reattach a lost limb as long as it brings it to positive HP, however it cannot regrow a lost limb, for such a Restoration spell is needed, curing HP as a Cure X Wounds of one level lower.

- A creature who misses a limb only have the listed penalties, it does not have less HP.
I think they're kinda harsh, at least at low levels, so it has the follow-up 'rule' of "you (PCs) don't do it and I (DM) won't either, ok?".