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Boci
2011-07-11, 01:23 PM
Standard situation: I have a riddle I want to use on my players. Required context: play by post oriental game.

Of leaves and stems I once had plenty yet grow again I never will,
You can find me in the cities, by rivers or at the top of a hill.
And if you wish to speak to forces unseen and fey,
My selfless sacrifice will always light your way.

Two questions:

1. What do you think the answer is? I will use this to gauge how hard it is.

2. Assuming my PCs struggle with it, how long should I wait before giving them a hint?

Xanmyral
2011-07-11, 01:47 PM
Wood

It would depend really. If they are close to figuring it out, I wouldn't bother with the hint. If they are completely clueless, give them one that might help. Like, maybe another verse that could help or something. Could fluff this as a part of it being obscured or something.

Sebastrd
2011-07-11, 01:58 PM
As to the answer, I have no idea.

If your players have trouble with it, you should let them make some kind of skill or knowledge check for each line. It shouldn't take them more than one or two checks to figure it out.

BillyBobJoe
2011-07-11, 02:01 PM
It sounds like it might be "torch", but the third line makes no sense that way. Wood might work, but the third one again is a bit of a stretch. I could see that being a reference to Ouija Boards, but eh.

Zale
2011-07-11, 02:03 PM
A Torch? Made of dead wood that can light someone's way.

As for a hint, that depends on how they play. Some people would want a hint sooner than others.

If they seem to not get it, but are having fun trying to figure it out, then don't give a hint.

If they seem hopeless and are beginning to get frustrated, give them another line or something.

Ravens_cry
2011-07-11, 03:46 PM
WOod and torches do sound right, yet they don't either. Why "speak", you don't need wood or torches to speak to things, why specifically at the top of hills? Or for that matter, rivers? The trouble with puzzles like this is they are so binary. Either the game freezes in its tracks or they get it right away. Following Rule of Three (http://www.thealexandrian.net/creations/misc/three-clue-rule.html), I would give other options. Maybe the Barbarian Lockpick allows them to smash their way through. This could be a less optimal, monsters attack, yet doable "solution". Or they can find the secret door put there because, well, if you had to pass through this hall every day, would you want to answer some silly riddle?
This way if they get frustrated they can still continue the game, at a price.

Quietus
2011-07-11, 04:32 PM
I. Hate. Riddles.

Can I smash my way through whatever it's protecting? Climb/Jump/Fly over it? Burn it? Because quite frankly, I think I represent at least a portion of the gaming community when I see a riddle and have one of two things happen : Either stop being in-character and have to think as myself, or ignore the riddle itself and try a million other things to get past it because it annoys me.

randomhero00
2011-07-11, 04:44 PM
Whoever/whatever asked the riddle I maim, kill, and burn. Then defile the ashes.

I think you get my drift.

Boci
2011-07-11, 05:42 PM
Dammit, no ones got it yet, and multiple people have guessed the same wrong answer. There is an NPC with the party, but he's a ratling, so it would be strange if he guessed it when it was written by a human. Still, it'll work in an emergency.

By the way, its play by post, so I cannot tell very well if the player's get frustrated. Also, did everyone catch that is was an oriental game? Its relevant context for a reason.


Can I smash my way through whatever it's protecting?

Your 5th level, its an iron door, so it borderline. It would depend how well you describe actually using your strength and weapon, where, what techniques, ect.


Climb/Jump/Fly over it?

Nope, iron door in a cave tunnel.


Burn it?

No, your 5th level. You do not yet have fire strong enough to melt a thick iron door.

OracleofWuffing
2011-07-11, 05:48 PM
...Tea?


Nope, iron door in a cave tunnel.
BWAHAHA! They all laughed at me for bringing a shovel, WHO'S LAUGHING NOW!

Swooper
2011-07-11, 06:08 PM
Also, did everyone catch that is was an oriental game? Its relevant context for a reason.
...Bamboo? :smallconfused:

Amnestic
2011-07-11, 06:26 PM
Possibility for the smashy-smashy inclined: Cast Heroics (Wiz/Sorc 2, SpC) to grab Martial Study: Mountain Hammer (ToB) and giggle as your puny wizard with 8 strength ignores the DR/Hardness on the door and crumples it into nothing?

Think that would work, though I'm sure there's a hole in it somewhere.

Chilingsworth
2011-07-11, 08:08 PM
Possibility for the smashy-smashy inclined: Cast Heroics (Wiz/Sorc 2, SpC) to grab Martial Study: Mountain Hammer (ToB) and giggle as your puny wizard with 8 strength ignores the DR/Hardness on the door and crumples it into nothing?

Think that would work, though I'm sure there's a hole in it somewhere.

unless your wizard has initiator levels, he'd only be able to use it once per encounter (no refresh method.) That could make things difficult.

Xanmyral
2011-07-11, 08:16 PM
Wait, I'm confused. It's a solid iron door in a stone tunnel... Why not just destroy the rock around the door to get through? It must be weaker then the iron, so it should be easier. Just smash enough for the door to tumble down.

JonRG
2011-07-11, 08:37 PM
Did everyone catch that is was an oriental game?

I did not. The OP had me at 'riddle.' :smalltongue:

My guess was also 'torch.' The prevalence of bamboo, how observant the PCs are, and how relevant the fey clue is will determine if your players can solve it.

Bob
2011-07-11, 08:52 PM
{Scrubbed}

Amnestic
2011-07-11, 10:23 PM
unless your wizard has initiator levels, he'd only be able to use ot once per encounter (no refresh method.) That could make things difficult.

Suppose that depends on how the DM defines 'encounter' when you use the maneuver out of combat then. :smalltongue:

claricorp
2011-07-12, 02:23 AM
I would probably guess a house or fireplace, but the third line just throws me off.

Ertwin
2011-07-12, 02:31 AM
peach blossoms? Those are usually depicted in all the places mentioned.

Ravens_cry
2011-07-12, 02:40 AM
peach blossoms? Those are usually depicted in all the places mentioned.
How does that let you talk to "speak to forces unseen and fey." or the fourth line for that matter?

caden_varn
2011-07-12, 05:19 AM
I sort of thought
incense stick
but it doesn't really make a lot of sense to me. Its kinda a guess

Ravens_cry
2011-07-12, 06:06 AM
I think we can safely conclude unless we are all dullards, not impossible mind, that this riddle is too abstruse.

Boci
2011-07-12, 09:08 AM
I think we can safely conclude unless we are all dullards, not impossible mind, that this riddle is too abstruse.

And ironically enough the right answer has been said on this thread. But yes, the riddle does appear to be very hard, but not impossible.

Ravens_cry
2011-07-12, 09:24 AM
And ironically enough the right answer has been said on this thread. But yes, the riddle does appear to be very hard, but not impossible.
Well, of course it is not impossible, there are only so many words in the English language, picking at random could theoretically give the right answer, but none of the answers I have read so far make any sense to me as an answer for all the conditions. Unfortunately, as I said earlier, the problem with a puzzle with no other options is it is so binary. They either get it, move on or they don't and are stuck. That is not good game design in my opinion. I give up, what is the answer supposed to be? You can send me a PM if you don't want others to know yet.

Mono Vertigo
2011-07-12, 10:23 AM
My 2 cents:
riddles are never a good idea in roleplaying games for reasons already mentioned (though if someone has one, just one example of a game where riddles are a good addition, I'll gladly take it).
Either you're forced to think OOC, and it somewhat defeats the point of RPGs, especially if it's the player of, say, the barbarian or the feral creature who comes up with the solution... or nobody finds the answer (which is more likely than you think, no matter the IQ of everyone at your table/forum), and they're stuck, even though it would make sense for the most clever characters of the party to answer.
Either you try thinking IC, and essentially dumb yourself down for that, which is never a good thing, or you waste an awful lot of time having your characters ICly suggest things that you're aware can't be right.

Well, riddles might be a nice addition. If there is an alternative that doesn't require a big sacrifice. Have the door be protected by a lock that can be picked if there's a thief/rogue, or the door itself be fragile if anyone has access to brute power, of have the old sage give the party whatever they need after he's intimidated, tricked, or defeated in a fair fight.

The real issue with riddle is that, technically, anyone with a hint of imagination can come up with an answer that could fit but wasn't designed to be the answer in the first place (hence, here wood that is a perfectly fine replacement for bamboo). And people can't just turn off their imagination and just find "properly" the correct answer.

Ted_Stryker
2011-07-12, 12:04 PM
This seems needlessly risky to me. Why is it so deucedly important that there be a riddle at this point in the adventure, especially one that seems like a bottleneck by the apparent lack of other options available to the PCs to make progress? PBP games are fragile things, and if the posts in your game don't come frequently enough for you to figure out the difference between normal posting lag and player frustration, I think you're running the risk of having the riddle just outright killing your game if it turns into a stumper.

Sillycomic
2011-07-12, 02:21 PM
Faerie Fire almost works.

Of leaves and stems I once had plenty yet grow again I never will,
I'll get back to this...

You can find me in the cities, by rivers or at the top of a hill.
If you cast faerie fire on someone, you can see them no matter where they are, on the tops of hills, in cities or by rivers.

And if you wish to speak to forces unseen and fey,
You can see the unseen through faerie fire, thus making it easier to talk to them. And fey creatures... well they love faerie fire obviously. So you cast faerie fire and they will think you are friendly and wish to talk to you.

My selfless sacrifice will always light your way.
That's what faerie fire does! It lights things up.

Honestly, the only part that doesn't say FF in this riddle is the first line. I actually had to check the SRD to see if FF didn't have some material component like "leaves" or "bark from a tree" or something. Cause, if it did it would have made perfect sense for the first line.

Which is sad, I would enjoy a riddle where the answer would be to cast a simple spell like Faerie Fire, maybe it will reveal an invisible key hanging alongside the door or something. It was going to be clever.

Either way, none of the answers make real sense cause the riddle is far too vague.

Riddles are supposed to be specific, usually to the point of having double meanings. This one has the exact opposite effect, it is vague to the point that you can put several different things into the answer. The vagueness only lets you confirm how your interpretation of the answer works.

First of all, you start off with something specific like leaves and stems. Good. I like specific. This makes me think of plants, or by-products of plants. But, I know leaves and stems also have other meanings, so I'm not tied down to this. It's a good start though.

The second line doesn't help at all. Something found near rivers, on top of hills and in cities? All sorts of plants and by-products of plants are found there... so we don't get any help there.

Also, grammatical nitpick. You pluralize cities and rivers, but not hill. You find this thing in the cities and near many rivers, but only on the top of "a hill." This could be interpreted in a way to mean that while this... whatever it is, is in many cities and near many rivers, there is only one hill specifically in which it resides atop of.

"The cities" to me means all cities. Every single city you can find this in.

But "a hill," I could easily say that is one specific hill, rather than numerous hills. It's even more specific that, you only find this on top of 1 hill. There is a single hill, and at the top of this hill there is... whatever this thing is.

You could have done this simply to fit into the rhyming scheme, but in riddles I would rather something make sense more than rhyme. Also, people like to look at specifics in riddles. The more specific something is, the more you can grab onto it and try to justify your answer.

"It says cities but only hill, there is something in that, I need to try and see if there is some sort of plant that grows in cities all the time but is only found on one specific hill somewhere in the world."

You get specific about being able to speak to the unseen... and fey. But instead of being specific to the point of narrowing down plants, it only confuses me more. Most people don't have any common knowledge about how to speak with fey creatures, or how to speak to the unseen.

Actually, this is the first part of me that said, "oh, this is a spell." Cause, how else do you interact with the unseen? Spells! Comprehend Languages spell, if it had some sort of material component that had to do with speaking.

And, it doesn't make any sense. The line in the riddle says, "If you want to speak to the unseen." Well, if it's unseen, how does that make it any easier or harder to speak to it? I can speak just as easily to an invisible person as a visible one, can't I?

I can't see or feel an invisible person, but I can hear them and talk to them all day long. The same with fey. Is there something to help me speak to a fey, other than a comprehend language spell, that I don't know about?

And the last line is once more vagueness. The sacrifice part is good and specific, once more makes me think of a spell simply because you usually consume the material component in the spells casting, but then it says "Light my way."

So, in order to speak to the unseen I need to sacrifice something to show me the way? How does that work? Do I not know the way beforehand? It makes me feel like in order to speak with the unseen I need to be shown where the unseen are... but if they are invisible why are they hiding from me? Invisible and hiding, that's like double jeopardy right there, it makes no sense whatsoever.

So yeah, I would say the riddle itself needs to make internal sense before someone can come up with a decent answer.

Altair_the_Vexed
2011-07-12, 02:33 PM
If you have any player characters with higher INT scores than their players, you MUST provide skill / ability check solutions.

Riddles can be fun, but the context of an RPG means that characters famous for being smart should be the ones most likely to get it.

Jerthanis
2011-07-12, 02:48 PM
1.) The answer is Ancestors/Family... or at least I'm pretty sure it is. I could be leaping to conclusions based on it being an oriental setting, but Ancestors are people you call upon to intervene in supernatural affairs, and they had 'leaves and stems' in that they've had children... but they'll have no more because they're dead.

Being in cities and atop hills makes sense to be graveyards, but I'm not sure if there are ever graveyards or anything in particular to do with ancestors next to rivers, so that line kind of throws me from this answer.

2.) It was my first guess inside 2 seconds from reading it, so if I'm right it's too simple and if I'm wrong you should probably add more to it that more definitively excludes Ancestors/Ancestry/Family lines of thinking.

OracleofWuffing
2011-07-12, 03:01 PM
Raw metagaming power determines it's not family, because nobody has suggested it before. :smalltongue:


And ironically enough the right answer has been said on this thread. But yes, the riddle does appear to be very hard, but not impossible.
For the sake of the people who want to disintegrate and gust of wind the door, mind either spoiling the answer or putting the name of the person who said the word in a spoiler? It could help people with the second part of your request by helping create context-sensitive hints.

randomhero00
2011-07-12, 03:11 PM
SO freaking tell us already!


PS to above, families don't have leaves. Nor do they stop growing per se.

Cespenar
2011-07-12, 03:12 PM
Analyzing* the answers and the OP's response, I would say:
Tea.

*More like "thinking about it for a few seconds", actually, but that sounded cooler, in case I got it right.

Xanmyral
2011-07-12, 03:14 PM
So the answer wasn't bring a pickax? Darn.

OracleofWuffing
2011-07-12, 03:14 PM
PS to above, families don't have leaves. Nor do they stop growing per se.
Family trees tend to have a fair amount of leaves, and dead guys generally do a good job of stopping to grow.


Analyzing* the answers and the OP's response, I would say:
Tea.
My problem with that one- and me being the one to suggest that one, is that the "light your way" bit needs to be taken so figuratively as opposed to how literally you need to take a few of the other parts. That said, yes, if that turns out to be correct, dang straight I'm going to dance.

Sillycomic
2011-07-12, 03:16 PM
Tea
Bamboo
Ganja
House
Fireplace
Peach Blossoms
Incense

These were all suggested between the time Boci said no one had gotten the answer, and when he said someone did.

Some of them make sense. Some are just kind of parallels of what other people mentioned... if it's bamboo and not wood you have got a serious problem with your riddle.

Likewise if it is incense and not torch.

House makes sense until you realize the riddle asks you to sacrifice your house in order to speak with fey. That is a little odd.

Fireplace doesn't make sense because a fireplace never had leaves or stems at one point in time, no matter which definition of leaves and stems one is looking at.

I do like Incense sticks, except you can't find those in the wild. The best you have is that the stuff made from the incense was once part of the wilderness, and now it's been plucked and used in rituals which "light the way" to supernatural and whatnot. People use incense for incantations and rituals with speaking to the other side.

To be honest I feel this is the best guess... but again, if Incense stick is correct and torch isn't, you've got a far bigger problem with your riddle.

OracleofWuffing
2011-07-12, 03:20 PM
Don't forget, Boci said that the answer has been said, not has been guessed. So it could be in someone's signatures, or it could still be shovel. :smallbiggrin: This is why people don't usually let me close to any riddles any more.

Edit: vvv Yeah, whatever, you just don't want me to dance. :smallmad: Would the heat of tea poured into the lock also cause the door to open? :smalltongue:

Boci
2011-07-12, 03:22 PM
Its incense sticks. The rivers and hill was where my research indicated you can find temples. I thought the second part would exclude torches since AFAIK they are not used in religious ceremonies. I can see now it was a mistake to include cities, because you can buy everything there if you look hard enough and thus it was just confusing.
But, as I told someone who PM-ed me the door will open from the heat of incense when it is held to the lock ,so whilst technically the wrong answer, a torch, provided it was lit would open the door.

OracleofWuffing
2011-07-12, 05:07 PM
For the sake of those playing at home, I'll be spoilering this post. Here are some suggestions and advice I would have for further hints on this riddle.

First thing's first, the distinction that you are in an Oriental Campaign is not enough of a hint to answer this riddle. Incense is used for these purposes and located in roughly the same areas outside of oriental realms. For what it is worth, I agree on the matter of torches... While they might not be a required part of religious ceremonies, they are certainly in use in any ceremony that takes place inside, barring magical ceiling lights.

First thing I'd do is make it well-known that Incense an important thing. Even before the PCs start this side quest, even as far as the very first quest the PCs do, have something that involves incense, preferably with the intention of speaking to deities or other "unseen forces." Maybe some guy wants the PCs to escort a caravan to another town, but before the caravan leaves, the driver always says a prayer, but he's out of incense. "Hey, person standing right by me, would you mind going across the street to get some incense sticks?" If you want to be more obscure about it, have the task require the PCs to get three things, one of which is an incense stick, the other is stuff like wine or a cushion or something. Incense has been established in the story, and you have a little treat for players that like to pay attention and remember bits from earlier in the game.

Second, the riddle, particularly the second and third line, should be rewritten to explicitly mention religion. If you want to keep the rhyming scheme, you can just replace "cities" with "shrines" or "temples." Then, make sure that your campaign includes the PCs going to a shrine or holy or blessed place by two rivers, and another one at the top of a hill. Maybe the two rivers are important, a guy died routing one big river towards two towns to save them both and now he's the protector of each town, maybe the hill's important because someone fell a demon or something and the earth just swallowed up the corpse, making the hill. Rivers and hills are a dime a dozen, it's easy just to dismiss those locations as "this can be found anywhere." Bonus points if you establish that *evil force* is repelled by hills and rivers, so holy places can't exist without one of the two, but that might not work in your campaign.

Third, the knockout clue, which can be revealed after the PCs try to open the door and fail, maybe require a skill check after each failure with the DC decreasing if they miss it with each wrong solution. "You begin to notice a faint pleasant/bitter/distinct aroma in the room, which smells like TOKEN_INCENSE_BURNED_EARLIER_IN_CAMPAIGN." What skills you roll depends on what campaign your running, but if you want to take away from the obviousness of the hint, you want to roll for noticing a scent, roll for connecting the scent to an incense, and then roll for connecting that incense to a religious practice (this last part shouldn't be entirely necessary, but it'll help players feel like they're helping).

Another "very obvious" hint that could be carried out well before the riddle appears, is to let the players see a (group of) fey that really likes the scent of a single, specific incense. Remember the caravan hint? Maybe the driver gave all his incense sticks away to an attractive creature.

Cespenar
2011-07-12, 05:11 PM
Since my awesome analyzing skills couldn't have been wrong, I call shenanigans!

(Also, the post above seems to contain some good advice, which I'll second)

Jerthanis
2011-07-13, 04:57 AM
Darn, I figured the "Already been said, but not guessed" was when someone guessed "Houses", as "House" can also refer to an ancestral family.

Oh well.

Ravens_cry
2011-07-13, 05:44 AM
I don't want to be a hater, but, as I mentioned in my brief PM discussion with the OP, I think this is a bad riddle. A good riddle should, even if you have to be told the answer, "Of course, why didn't I think of that?". It should not require the leaps of logic seen in bad adventure games or the Adam West Batman television show.

Someone apparently did figure it out, but we had days to do this. In any game, this would cripple a session. Apparently this is play by post, so that helps a little, but not much. If anything, the slow feedback on whether answers are correct or not only adds to the frustration. The players might be spending weeks trying to figure this out if play by post progresses at a similar rate to my experience. That is a long time with nothing potentially moving foreward.

Riddles are hard things to get right in an actual campaign, though they are popular in myth and legend, because you can have the hero stumble along and think as long as the storyteller thinks they can maintain dramatic tension. But a real game with real players it can be a recipe for disaster.
You wanted a check, Boci, and this is my honest opinion.

Thank you.

Sebastrd
2011-07-13, 12:21 PM
A good riddle should, even if you have to be told the answer, "Of course, why didn't I think of that?".

If your riddle doesn't pass this test, it's a bad riddle.

Sillycomic
2011-07-13, 02:59 PM
I agree. That is a good test.


Speaking of which, here you go. A riddle


The players have to sing the song in order for the door to open. Here is the riddle:

Never have you heard such a song.
Gonna try and sing a few notes now?
Give it your best and the door will open.
You will be shown the way.
Up and down, around and around.


What do they sing?

Ravens_cry
2011-07-13, 03:06 PM
Just wondering ,would this require out of character knowledge?

OracleofWuffing
2011-07-13, 03:47 PM
If your riddle doesn't pass this test, it's a bad riddle.
You know, now that I think about it, isn't there an obligatory XKCD (http://xkcd.com/169/) about riddles?


What do they sing?
Never Gonna Give You Up, by Rick Astley.

Sillycomic
2011-07-13, 03:53 PM
Oracle wins one internet.

And all of the players have been rick rolled, so in the end everyone wins!

OracleofWuffing
2011-07-13, 03:56 PM
Worst Best part of it is, I guessed that well before I looked at the starting word in each line. I really was operating under the idea, "Okay, we're singing, this is the internet. Whelp, that narrows it down to like three songs."

Boci
2011-07-13, 05:24 PM
Wonderful, no players have responded yet. (Yeah, don't know why I used future tense in the OP.)

Anyway, if they struggle I have free options in game:

1. Have the NPCed ratling answer/offer a big hint. I like this one just because its funny, espcecially since he specializes in truenaming magic.

2. Have the courtier roll a knowledge check and give her a hint based on the result.

3. Continue the game anyway. This could work because the player's do not need anhything from behind the door, its just a flavourful treasure dump. But I want to avoid this because:
A. The player's may not know there isn't something plot vital behind the door
B. After having the area hyped up so much it would be a bit of a downer if a riddle kept them away from it

Runeward
2011-07-13, 11:44 PM
Not that it'll be super helpful since you already created your riddle, but here are my guidelines for riddle writing (http://runeward.blogspot.com/2011/07/puzzles-riddle.html). In general I tend to agree with the idea that if once someone is told the answer they don't immediately think it was a really fair riddle, it is a bad riddle.

WildPyre
2011-07-13, 11:53 PM
My only guesses as "Hole" "Secret" and "Magic" though none of them quite fit and I'm only guessing them because they've been said before, not due to any insight from the riddle.

ericgrau
2011-07-14, 12:27 AM
Ya you really need to allow knowledge checks to know that the object can be used to get fey and spirits. That or have the players walk through the relevant area earlier in the adventure. Even after reading the answer I'm still thinking, "Really? Are you sure it can be used for that? You didn't just make that up?"


Faerie Fire almost works.

...

Which is sad, I would enjoy a riddle where the answer would be to cast a simple spell like Faerie Fire, maybe it will reveal an invisible key hanging alongside the door or something. It was going to be clever.
Idea stolen, archived in notes

elpollo
2011-07-14, 08:12 AM
I'd let the players just mosey on. They can't solve the riddle, so if they can't find another way through (would you allow Gaseous Form to bypass it? Knock?) let them miss out. Being handed the answer (whether through an NPC or a skill check) takes away the feeling of having overcome the challenge (well... you can argue about skill checks, especially since some challenges are essentially just skill checks, but come on, it's a riddle). Let the players come back later with new tools if they're that bothered about it (or when they leave offer them some more of the clues provided by other posters and hope they make the connection). Play-by-post games take long enough when you aren't posting one word guesses to riddles.

Quellian-dyrae
2011-07-14, 02:55 PM
What you might want to do is give Knowledge/Intelligence/Wisdom/Whatever checks to nudge them in the right direction, but not tell them the answer itself.

For example, if you want to give a clue for each line, you might give:

"You get the impression that 'leaves and stems' should be taken literally."
"Temples are often found on hills, by rivers, and in cities."
"'Fey and unseen' brings to mind magical spells and rituals."
"Sacrificing something makes you think of how spellcasters often expend components to work their magic."

This helps with the "my character has 18 Int, he should be able to figure this out" problem, and really makes the riddle much easier to solve, since now the players are thinking along the lines that you want them to be thinking on. Now they know it's something made from a plant, found in a temple, and used as a component in spells and rituals.

Another question I have is, do they know they need to hold the incense to the door? Even if they can guess the riddle, they might not realize what they have to do to actually solve the puzzle.

Another thought I've had for these sorts of things is that when the players guess an incorrect but feasible answer, ask them to back up how it fits the riddle. Then assign say an Int or Wis check, with the DC based on how well their answer fits (off the top of my head, I'd do DC 15 + 2 for each line that they don't really fit but don't contradict, +5 per line they actually contradict), and if they succeed, that was the answer in-game. If the players want to keep trying to guess your actual answer, well and good, but this keeps the game moving and again offers some benefit for high mental stats while still requiring the players think.

randomhero00
2011-07-14, 04:07 PM
Can you tell me the answer already? This stuff bothers me...><

Lord Loss
2011-07-14, 04:10 PM
Can you tell me the answer already? This stuff bothers me...><

The OP confirmed that it was sticks of incense in a spoilered post a while back.

navar100
2011-07-14, 05:46 PM
A Torch? Made of dead wood that can light someone's way.

As for a hint, that depends on how they play. Some people would want a hint sooner than others.

If they seem to not get it, but are having fun trying to figure it out, then don't give a hint.

If they seem hopeless and are beginning to get frustrated, give them another line or something.

Who's giving the riddle? If a person, have his name be Jack Harkness.

:smallbiggrin:

Edit: Or his name can be John using a wheelbarrow.

:smallamused:

Boci
2011-07-15, 07:46 PM
Wow, first player to post, got it right away.

Fiery Diamond
2011-07-16, 01:13 AM
Wow, first player to post, got it right away.

Any chance that your player discovered this thread?

Boci
2011-07-16, 02:34 AM
Any chance that your player discovered this thread?

Given that I posted this thread after I had posted the riddle, its unlikely.

Ravens_cry
2011-07-16, 05:17 AM
Given that I posted this thread after I had posted the riddle, its unlikely.
But apparently they didn't post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11410362&postcount=48) until afte (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11401950&postcount=37)r the riddle was resolved.

Boci
2011-07-16, 05:18 AM
But apparently they didn't post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11410362&postcount=48) until afte (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11401950&postcount=37)r the riddle was resolved.

I am well aware of that, but I trust my players not to do that, since finding the answer would require then deliberatly trying to cheat.

Ravens_cry
2011-07-16, 05:19 AM
I am well aware of that, but I trust my players not to do that, since finding the answer would require then deliberatly trying to cheat.
Yes, yes it would.

Boci
2011-07-16, 05:23 AM
Yes, yes it would.
You're just jealous because you couldn't figure it out /sarcasm.

In all seriousness, why should I assume the worst of my players? Maybe the riddle is logical for players who are already thinking in the mindset of an oriental setting, or maybe the player just got lucky. After all, someone on this thread managed to guess the answer.

Ravens_cry
2011-07-16, 06:22 AM
Maybe, I don't like to think the worst of people either. But the fact that it was answered until after it had been revealed here is just a little suspicious.

Boci
2011-07-16, 06:25 AM
Maybe, I don't like to think the worst of people either. But the fact that it was answered until after it had been revealed here is just a little suspicious.

Not given their erratic posting rate. Besides, they may have held off posting until they'd had a couple of days to think about the riddle.

Ravens_cry
2011-07-16, 06:27 AM
Fine, it's your game, the riddle has been answered, move on. I have already stated in detail what I thought of it.

Boci
2011-07-16, 06:30 AM
Fine, it's your game,

Okay, I'm curious. What do you think I should do about this? Confront them despite having no grounds for suspicion save a timeline that could well be a coincidence? What good will that lead to?

Fiery Diamond
2011-07-16, 11:55 PM
Okay, I'm curious. What do you think I should do about this? Confront them despite having no grounds for suspicion save a timeline that could well be a coincidence? What good will that lead to?

I do think that the post you're replying to was not worded in the best way, but I think what Ravens_cry was trying to say was this:

1)It is a possibility that your players cheated (the likelihood of that possibility we can't know)
2)We found your riddle to be difficult and problematic
3)None of your players attempted to answer the riddle for quite some time after you posted it
4)They answered AFTER we had already gotten the answer on this thread, and got the answer correct on the first try
5)These previous things combined make us suspicious
6)It isn't really a good mindset to say, "Well, my riddle was fine since my player got it, and I won't consider the possible implications of the above"
7)But hey, it's your game and you're happy with things, so just carry on; there really isn't any necessity for you to admit to a bad riddle or to suspect your players

I might be wrong in my interpretation, though.

Ravens_cry
2011-07-17, 12:02 AM
Thank you, that was pretty much the whole my point Fiery Diamond. If I seemed a little short, my only excuse is that it was quite late at the time and that meant I was typing in short, clipped sentences that, reading them again, can and do likely come across as snide and snippy, possibly even mean spirited. I apologize for that aspect, however unintentional it may have been.

Soylent Dave
2011-07-17, 12:58 PM
Okay, I'm curious. What do you think I should do about this? Confront them despite having no grounds for suspicion save a timeline that could well be a coincidence? What good will that lead to?

I certainly wouldn't bother derailing your campaign with a discussion about this (now in the past) riddle and whether it was solved legitimately or not.

However - you were concerned about its difficulty in the first place, and that was, to some degree, confirmed by the responses in the this thread. So I'd certainly take some of the suggestions from here on board for future puzzles.

Because there are some good ideas, which might help future you avoid the "am I making things too hard for my players?" question entirely.

Runeward
2011-07-17, 01:08 PM
I'm going to back Boci on this. Assuming your players cheated is not going to do anyone any favors. Even if they did cheat, it just means they were motivated enough towards his game to do additional research in trying to succeed. If you think about it, not *that* much different (but admittedly a bit different) than someone mining char-ops boards to make an effective combatant.

Moreover, I think the riddle was solvable, particularly if his campaign ever tied fey to incense. My first reaction was "torch" and that was immediately shot down by the thread. My second reaction was "incense?" It fit with the communing with spirits line but, to me, didn't fit with anything else. Evidently in his game it fits with a lot more.

Boci
2011-07-18, 10:53 AM
I do think that the post you're replying to was not worded in the best way, but I think what Ravens_cry was trying to say was this:

1)It is a possibility that your players cheated (the likelihood of that possibility we can't know)
2)We found your riddle to be difficult and problematic
3)None of your players attempted to answer the riddle for quite some time after you posted it
4)They answered AFTER we had already gotten the answer on this thread, and got the answer correct on the first try
5)These previous things combined make us suspicious
6)It isn't really a good mindset to say, "Well, my riddle was fine since my player got it, and I won't consider the possible implications of the above"
7)But hey, it's your game and you're happy with things, so just carry on; there really isn't any necessity for you to admit to a bad riddle or to suspect your players

I might be wrong in my interpretation, though.

Fair enough. I'm not really sure what to think of my riddle. Either it was really hard and they only guessed it because they found the answer here, or in the context of the game the answer was far more obvious than on a forum, and I have no way of knowing which is true. In any case it probably won’t matter much, in a fair few years of DM-ing this has been my first ever riddle and I doubt I will use one again any time soon. If and when though, I will use an already existing one rather than make up one myself.

Tyndmyr
2011-07-18, 12:05 PM
Its incense sticks. The rivers and hill was where my research indicated you can find temples. I thought the second part would exclude torches since AFAIK they are not used in religious ceremonies. I can see now it was a mistake to include cities, because you can buy everything there if you look hard enough and thus it was just confusing.
But, as I told someone who PM-ed me the door will open from the heat of incense when it is held to the lock ,so whilst technically the wrong answer, a torch, provided it was lit would open the door.

While I wouldn't bother to guess this since incense sticks don't have leaves, and thus, is not technically correct....I guess I would open the door when I set the entire room on fire in frustration.

It's ok for a riddle to be slightly misleading, in that it intially hints at something else...but it's extremely important for it to be technically correct, such that when the correct answer is arrived at, there is no dispute about it being appropriate. Also, be aware that multiple correct answers may exist. Wood is a great deal more correct, though it doesn't fit the spirits bit especially well.

Personally, I just avoid riddles like the plague, and as a player, anything I can't guess in about twenty seconds results in increasingly wild attempts to bypass the encounter via alternative means.

Edit: This is mainly due to my experience that there are two types of riddles. The type that someone blurts out in seconds, and the type that nobody gets until the GM gets frustrated and basically hands it to the players. Type A is a minor speed bump of no particular value. Type B is a terrible thing that is in everyone's interest to avoid.

Boci
2011-07-18, 12:38 PM
While I wouldn't bother to guess this since incense sticks don't have leaves, and thus, is not technically correct

The leaves and stems was past tense, "Once had plenty".


Type A is a minor speed bump of no particular value.

It has no value as a challange to the party, but can add to the flavour of the setting.

Tyndmyr
2011-07-18, 02:28 PM
The leaves and stems was past tense, "Once had plenty".

It's arguable at best. Yes, the stick, a component of the whole, once came from something that had leaves. This logic would apply equally well to the answer "a house".


It has no value as a challange to the party, but can add to the flavour of the setting.

I find it difficult to take most scenarios involving riddles as serious in any setting. They seem to generally pop out to the metagame level, directly challenging the players instead of their characters.

In addition, riddles are not generally the most logical of defenses.

Boci
2011-07-18, 02:39 PM
It's arguable at best. Yes, the stick, a component of the whole, once came from something that had leaves.

The vast majority of incense gets its smell from plants.


I find it difficult to take most scenarios involving riddles as serious in any setting. They seem to generally pop out to the metagame level, directly challenging the players instead of their characters.

Mine didn't, as the player's found out.


In addition, riddles are not generally the most logical of defenses.

In this case though it was. As the player's found out behind the door was the “study” of the creator of the island they were currently on. The riddle was there because he figured once they were civilized enough to use incense they would be ready to enter.

Sebastrd
2011-07-19, 10:16 AM
The riddle was there because he figured once they were civilized enough to use incense they would be ready to enter.

o.O

...

Really?

Boci
2011-07-19, 10:42 AM
o.O

...

Really?

Yes, to him it would have demonstrated a structured and civilized religious system within their society, which (being a shugenja) he thought was the best sign of advancement.

Aurenthal
2011-07-19, 11:30 PM
Water, I saw it on someones signature and thought it could make sense
If it is water, or not please PM me with the answer

Boci
2011-07-20, 07:36 AM
Water, I saw it on someones signature and thought it could make sense
If it is water, or not please PM me with the answer

It's incense.

caden_varn
2011-07-20, 10:03 AM
I have to say that while I was not terribly sure of my answer, given the hint about the Oriental nature of the campaign it was the first thing I thought of, and it onyl took me a couple of readings through to guess it.

The major thing that put me off incense was the 'light your way' but - you light them, but they don't provide really provide light themselves.
I also thought of the paper lanterns but they didn't really seem to help on the fey side.

But anyways, my point is that if I was able to get it fairly quickly, there is no reason why his players would not also have been able to get it.

JonRG
2011-07-20, 11:14 AM
@Caden: Yeah, but you made several incorrect guesses first. The players didn't and, barring a sphinx who would eat you, there's no real reason not to guess. That's what has me a little skeptical of the players, specious though it may be. :smallyuk:

EDIT: And if a torch's heat would open the door too, doesn't that negate the whole 'civilization checkpoint'?

Tyndmyr
2011-07-20, 11:19 AM
The riddle was there because he figured once they were civilized enough to use incense they would be ready to enter.

And this....individual, was intelligent? The one who figured that use of incense signified culture.

And then made it such that any heat source would work?

Like I said, it taxes my suspension of disbelief.

caden_varn
2011-07-20, 01:11 PM
@Caden: Yeah, but you made several incorrect guesses first. The players didn't and, barring a sphinx who would eat you, there's no real reason not to guess. That's what has me a little skeptical of the players, specious though it may be. :smallyuk:

EDIT: And if a torch's heat would open the door too, doesn't that negate the whole 'civilization checkpoint'?

No, several other people made incorrect guesses first, which Boci confirmed before I made my guess. It's impossible to say whether I would have gone straight to incense without that knowledge, and some of the other answers seemed promising to me, but incense sticks would certainly have been up there in the top few answers for me in this situation.

I am not trying to claim any great intellect here, just that the correct answer, while not hugely obvious, was as good as any others I saw suggested. They have to guess something first - there is a reasonable chance it happens to be the correct one if they are thinking along the lines Boci intended, which was roughly the line of reasoning I used.

It certainly does not prove anything, but I would say it is not so unlikely. Maybe they cheated, maybe not, but I reckon there is a reasonable chance of getting it first time, even if its a bit of a guess.

As you say, there is no obvious penalty for failure, so I cannot see any reason that they would not try shouting stuff out when they thought of things that may work.

Note I am not saying I think it is a great riddle - it is rather too vague, but its not plot critical and they got through it, so no great harm done either way.

Boci
2011-07-20, 01:23 PM
And this....individual, was intelligent? The one who figured that use of incense signified culture.

Shugenja, so charisma over intelligence. Plus by this point he had been living alone on the island for decades, so may have gone a bit mad.


And then made it such that any heat source would work?

2 reasons.

1. I wanted to throw my player's a bone and allow them to accidently solve the riddle in case it proved to be too hard/

2. I had no idea how to make a non-magical door open from having incense held to it but not a torch.