PDA

View Full Version : [3.5 Race] Fang. Updated *PEACH*



Evo Lution
2011-07-11, 04:52 PM
FANG
Diminutive Dragon/Angel
HD As per class
Speed 10ft.(2 squares) Fly speed 40ft. (Winged flight with good maneuverability)
Init:
AC 15; touch 10; flatfooted 15
(+4 ac size mod. +1 hardening scales)
BAB -1(+4size-5str) Grp -12
Attack Primary Bite -1(1d2, Crit20 times two dmg)
Secondary Claws (2) -1(1dmg, Crit20 times two dmg)
Full Attack
Space Same square Reach Same square
Special Attack Poison upon successful bite. (DC of 10+ half level + Con Mod) Paralysis for 1d6 rounds. Secondary save against sleep 1d4 hours.
Special Qualities Darkvision 60', Lowlight vision which gives four times greater sight in poor lighting conditions but not complete darkness, Hardening scales +1 AC at first level and +1 every third level, Immunities to magic sleep and paralysis effects, acid, cold and petrifaction, Tongues allows the fang to speak with any creature with a spoken language. A silvery mist surrounds any fang giving it a -4 to all hide checks.
Saves As per class
Ability Str: Always 1 Dex: +4 Con: -4 Int: -2 Wis: +4 Cha: +4
Skills
Feats
Environment Any
Organization
Challenge Rating
Treasure
Alignment Usually Neutral Good (But there are always exceptions)
Advancement - Favored Class Cleric
Level Advancement

Description
At first glance a fang would appear to be a dark skinned fey. However they are in no way related to the fey. Fangs have a mostly humanoid body. The fangs body is covered head to toe in blue gray scales. They have two arms that are like a humans with the exception of the hands that have thick hard nails that can be used to attack others. They have normal legs. Their head resembles that of a silver dragon except for the dull silver colored hair that grows from under their scales making it appear as if they have none. Some fangs shave their head to show off their draconic heritage. The eyes of a fang can be of any color. They can blend in with their scales or be so light that they appear to glow. They have a pair of angelic wings, matching the same lack luster silver as their hair, that protrude from their back. The average fang is only six to eight inches tall. The tallest fang in history only stood one foot tall. Most fangs only weigh one pound. The heaviest known weighed only two pounds.

NeoSeraphi
2011-07-11, 04:58 PM
Special attacks usually take into account an individual creature's ability score to determine how strong that particular creature's attack is and how hard it is to resist. (DC-wise. Poison attacks almost always use the Constitution score, so the DC for most poison attacks is 10+1/2 HD+ Con mod)


A creature gains a modifier based on its Size. Dimunitive creatures get +12


You've got the Size bonus to AC and Armor right, but it should have a higher modifier to its Hide checks.

Angels also have a +4 racial bonus on saving throws versus poison, in case you weren't aware of that.

You should mention which natural attack (the claw or the bite) is the primary attack. (Secondary natural attacks take a -5 penalty to hit and only add half of a creature's Strength modifier to their damage)

Evo Lution
2011-07-11, 05:20 PM
I aware of both the hide and saving throw bonus. I had tried to tone it back just a little. I did however neglect the primary and secondary attack however. And thanks for the saving throw advice. If I'm not mistaken i read that their fly speed should also be higher.

NeoSeraphi
2011-07-11, 05:28 PM
I aware of both the hide and saving throw bonus. I had tried to tone it back just a little. I did however neglect the primary and secondary attack however. And thanks for the saving throw advice. If I'm not mistaken i read that their fly speed should also be higher.

You can't "tone back" a Size bonus. I like that you ignored the racial saving throw bonus, it was a good way to help balance out the race, but the only way to give them just +8 to Hide checks is either to give them a -4 Racial penalty to Hide (which would still be lessened by their +4 racial bonus to Dexterity) or to simply make them Tiny instead of Diminutive.

At least, that's how I feel. After all, if we ignore clear, established rules in the SRD, we're not really homebrewing for 3.5, are we? Then again, it is your work so it's ultimately your decision.

And it's my pleasure. Welcome to the Playground, and please forgive me if you feel I'm being too rude or too harsh.

Evo Lution
2011-07-11, 05:36 PM
No you are telling me what I need to know. That is why I posted here. I wanted to know what I needed to do to make this race playable. I wanted to make sure it was balanced and not to overpowered. That is one reason I made the scales hardening. Honesty is what I'm looking for here.

NeoSeraphi
2011-07-11, 05:41 PM
Well, if you want a lot of different people to help, a good way is to post in the common forum format. You probably don't know where it is, so here's the coding for it:

Name
SIZE TYPE (SUBTYPE)
HD HD (Average HP)
Speed X ft. (X squares); ALT SPEEDS
Init: INITIATIVE
AC X; touch X; flat-footed X
(AC DETAILS)
BAB +X; Grp +X
Attack Standard attack +X
(damage, critical range/critical multiplier + additional damage)
Full-Attack Full attack +X/+X/+X (damage, critical range/critical multiplier +additional damage)
Space X ft.; Reach X ft.
Special Attacks
Special Qualities
Saves Fort +X Ref +X Will +X
Abilities Str X, Dex X, Con X, Int X, Wis X, Cha X
Skills
Feats
Environment
Organization Name (Number appearing)
Challenge Rating X
Treasure X gold; X gems; X art; X magical items
Alignment
Advancement by TYPE; Favored Class
Level Adjustment +X


It comes from this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10313), which I suggest you read, because Fax Celestis is a genius and her thread got stickied and has arguably become the standard behind all homebrewers on this forum.

Try adapting the changes I suggested that you agree with to your post, and try posting in this format, then bump the thread by announcing you've made the changes I suggested. After that, more people will probably comment and help you fix it until it's perfect.

DracoDei
2011-07-11, 05:47 PM
You need to be more explicit about if they get two claw attacks, or if they combine both fore-limbs into a single claw attack (like certain birds in the SRD MM do).

Your formatting is bad. Look in your PHB for a good way to format races. The 3 icons on the lower row of the icons above your post as you type/edit it can be pressed, to respectively bold, italicize, or underline a highlighted block of text. They can also each be pressed when no text is highlighted to provide a pair of "start doing this"/"stop doing this" tags and place the cursor between them (unless your computer works very different from mine).


At least, that's how I feel. After all, if we ignore clear, established rules in the SRD, we're not really homebrewing for 3.5, are we?
I don't think that one has mastered homebrewing UNTIL one starts violating a few "clear, established rules in the SRD". Now, as my loyal nemisis, Debihuman, would be quick to point out, one should clearly call out those violations, so nobody thinks you just screwed up (and has to read the whole thread to discover that you MEANT to do that).

In fact, your suggestion (which I find preferable to the current way things are expressed) ALSO breaks an established convention since no race in the SRD has a racial penalty (IE like a dwarf's stability bonus, rather than elves being more accurate at range because they have a +2 bonus to dexterity). I find your suggestion superior, because it is clearer.

To draw a parallel, I will relate* something someone with an English degree once told me. "In highschool writing classes they teach you the rules of the language. In college writing classes they teach you how to break those rules to maximum effect.".
*(although not word-for-word)

However, since this IS his first homebrew, he MIGHT be better off sticking to the "safer paths" until he gets more practice... but then again maybe not! Anyone with the creativity to meld the Dragon type with the Angel subtype may be enough of a "natural" that he should go right on breaking the rules, since he apparently already knows them.

NeoSeraphi
2011-07-11, 05:57 PM
DracoDei raises a good point. If you want to receive good PEACH, you should be clear about any changes to the norm that you intended for the class. (otherwise, they will just look like amateur mistakes, no offense. We all make them and for the most part, we're pleased when someone points them out to us)

The +12 Size bonus to Hide is there to mitigate the -12 penalty to Grapple, Bull Rush, Trip, Disarm, and Overrun checks. (In other words, you get that single +4 bonus as a small consolation prize to apologize for your race being snatched out of the air by a gnome with no problems)

If you feel that the +4 AC and attack bonus as well as a +8 racial bonus to Hide is enough to balance the penalty to all those combat maneuvers, great! I suggest you come up with a flavorful reason for why they have a lesser Hide bonus though ("Fluff"). It's not necessary, but WotC does it and I actually consider coming up with fluff to be rather enjoyable. In this instance, maybe the Fang's draconic curiosity or pride interferes with his natural ability to remain unseen.

DracoDei
2011-07-11, 06:17 PM
NeoSeraphi's giving of the format is better than my suggestion that you look at the PHB. Just follow these simple (but multi-step) directions:

hit the quote button at the bottom right of his post
highlight the relevant portion
copy it
hit the "back" button on your browser
hit the "edit" button at the bottom right of your own post that started off this thread (known around here as the "OP" or Original Post, although that same abbreviation also means "Original Poster", based on context)
Paste the copied block of text-with-forum-codes in above your pre-existing text
Copy over the information from your original format to the new one, leaving anything that doesn't fit (your fluff) below, perhaps with bolded headers on sections.
Fill in as much as you can of the spots in the statistics-block you didn't provide information for. Of especial interest to me would be the alignment line, since you list them as Angels, but don't specify if they are "Always Any Good" or whatever... many people like to buck the alignment trends, but try to help out those of us (like me) who stick to them as far as racial tendencies go.




Good maneuverability automatically includes the ability to hover, so you don't have to state it separately.



Regarding how to "fluff" a racial penalty to hide checks, I suggest there Angellic nature causing them to constantly be surrounded by a small cloud of thin (so as not to provide concealment, or obscure their vision) silvery mist that extends well beyond the reach of their arms. It has a "Holy" feel to it. I would avoid them glowing because that would mean they should theoretically be able to provide the party with illumination in dark areas. I would avoid making they themselves brightly colored, since that leaves one to wonder why they can't just cover up in a robe and paint their wings in camo colors to negate the penalty.
For further fluff purposes, I would say that it is possible to negate the mist with practice, but that this is represented by ranks in the Hide skill. Perhaps the first X ranks (where X is the racial penalty) have nothing to do with how to find good hiding places and other mundane hiding skills such as many halflings (for instance) learn but are exclusively learning how to stop shedding glittery stuff everywhere. Heh... non-glowing "fairy-dust" would actually work perfectly as an alternative to mist, as long as it fountains off of them in a slow sprinkle, rather than just falling straight down, and each particle vanishes soon enough after creation to avoid giving them a racial penalty to the DCs of tracking attempts on them.

NeoSeraphi
2011-07-11, 06:32 PM
Incidentally, the angel is a subtype of Celestials and is generally accompanied by the Good subtype as well.

BinaryMage
2011-07-11, 06:35 PM
DracoDei raises a good point. If you want to receive good PEACH, you should be clear about any changes to the norm that you intended for the class.

I'm a newcomer to this section. What does "PEACH" stand for?

And Evo, what LA/CR adjustments would this race have? I don't think you mentioned that.

Morph Bark
2011-07-11, 06:37 PM
Also, be careful with races smaller than Small size, because they have no reach at all, whilst on the other hand they make such crazy good casters/scouts it's a miracle that most parties don't employ more of such creatures.

By which I also mean to imply that Diminutive size probably would get a hefty LA.

DracoDei
2011-07-11, 09:17 PM
I'm a newcomer to this section. What does "PEACH" stand for?
Specific expansions of that acronym vary, but one is: Please Examine And Critique Honestly.

Evo Lution
2011-07-12, 02:06 PM
Thanks to all for your feedback. I hope this makes things better. Please advise of any thing you see wrong.

Debihuman
2011-07-13, 03:54 PM
As for more critiquing.

Creatures have a base HD and then add class so you need to decide how many HD your creature has to start, unless it is a creature that substitutes its racial HD for its class HD. There is no way that this is a balanced 1 HD creature and if try, it will have awful level adjustments.

A good rule of thumb is CR should be equal to or LOWER than HD. For this to be a decent creature, it should probably have at least 4 HD and it probably should have more but let's see how it looks at 4 first.

Dragons use a d12 for their HD. Angel is a subtype. All Angels have Angel traits just as all dragons have dragon traits. Don't explain the abilities in the stat block. See the MM or the online SRD www.d20srd.org for how the statistics block should be completed.

It appears you are missing some standard angel traits. You need to state that this creature does not have those features.

I'm gonna put corrections in a spoiler. A Diminutive creature stands between 6 inches tall and one foot tall. Are you certain you wanted something this little? BAB is based on the number of HD a creature has. Dragons advance like a fighter so it gets +1 BAB for every HD.

It is missing skills and feats. It has a -1 modifier to skills so it has only 7 skill ranks to work with. It can a max rank of 7 in one skill, 1 rank in 7 skills or any combination of skills that adds to 7. It has so many bonuses to Hide already that it doesn't need ranks in it. You could put all ranks in Move Silently, which is what I would recommend so that you can take advantage of Dex and it give it the Stealthy feat. Without any ranks in Hide, the fang gets +2 from Stealthy feat, +4 from Mist and +12 from its size and +1 from Dex. That's Hide + 19. Move Silently would get +7 ranks, +2 from Stealthy feat and +1 from Dex. That's Move Silently +10.

I recommend giving it Dodge and Stealthy feats to take advantage of its size and good dexterity and maximize its use of Hide.

Here's how your dragon looks with 4 HD. I'm not giving it a level adjustment because it really isn't a decent playable monster.


Fang
Diminutive Dragon (Angel)
Hit Dice: 4d12-8 (18 hp)
Speed; 10 ft.(2 squares) Fly speed 40 ft. (Good)
Initiative: +1
Armor Class: 16 (+1 Dex, +4 size, +1 natural); touch 14; flat-footed 15
BAB/Grapple: +4/-13
Attack: Bite +3 melee (1d3-5 plus poison)
Full Attack: Bite +3 melee (1d3-5 plus poison) and 2 claws - 2 melee (1)
Space/Reach: 1 ft./0 ft.
Special Attack: Poison
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., Low-light vision, Immunities to acid, cold, magic sleep and paralysis effects, and petrifaction, Mist, Tongues
Abilities: Str 1, Dex 14 Con 7, Int 8, Wis 15, Cha 14
Skills: Hide +18, Move Silently +10
Feats: Dodge, Stealthy
Environment: Any
Organization:Any
Challenge Rating: 3
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Usually Neutral Good
Advancement: By Class; Favored Class: Cleric
Level Advancement:--

At first glance, a fang would appear to be a dark-skinned humanoid. The fang's body is covered head-to-toe in blue-gray scales. They have two arms that are like a human's, with the exception of the hands that have thick hard nails that can be used to attack others. They have normal legs. Their head resembles that of a silver dragon except for the dull silver colored hair that grows from under their scales, making it appear as if they have none. Some fangs shave their head to show off their draconic heritage. The eyes of a fang can be of any color. They can blend in with their scales or be so light that they appear to glow. They have a pair of angelic wings, matching the same lack luster silver as their hair, that protrude from their back.

The average fang is only six to eight inches tall. The tallest fang in history only stood one foot tall. Most fangs only weigh one pound. The heaviest known weighed only two pounds.

Fangs speak Draconic.

Combat

Mist (Ex): Fangs are shrouded in an silvery mist that grants them a +4 bonus to Hide checks.

Poison (Ex): Anyone bitten by a fang must make a Fortitude save (DC 10) or become paralyzed for 1d6 rounds and then must make a secondary save against sleep for 1d4 hours. Creatures that make their save are unaffected by the fang's poison. The save is constitution-based.

Tongues (Su): Fangs can speak with any creature that has a language, as though using a tongues spell (caster level equal to fang’s Hit Dice). This ability is always active.

Comments on above creature: it is just too physically weak. With Str 1 and -4 to Con it has pitiful attacks and even its poison it too easy to save. It's a good thing you can't Take 10 on being poisoned. For a dragon, even its hit points are weak. Why Str 1? Even a Wyrmling black dragon could take it out.

Debby

Evo Lution
2011-07-15, 04:59 PM
A diminutive (playable) race was what I was trying for. Their size limits their Str to 1 and if I figured it out right the -4 to Con is correct for their size as well. Their psychical drawbacks are why they rely on their on their magic. I was hoping it would be balanced. Guess I failed.

Debihuman
2011-07-17, 11:38 AM
Size does not limit their Str to 1. Where did you get that idea?


A size modifier applies to the creature’s Armor Class (AC) and attack bonus, as well as to certain skills. A creature’s size also determines how far it can reach to make a melee attack and how much space it occupies in a fight (see Big and Little Creatures In Combat).

If you look at the section on Improving monsters, you can also see how weakening monsters would work. If you look at the standard array, a Medium creature would have 10s and 11s in all abilities and going down two sizes would give it the following adjustments -10 Str.

However, the typical base dragon is NOT a medium creature. A typical base dragon is the wyrmling and just looking at the Black dragon, the starting size is Tiny Wyrmling has Str 11. If you weaken it to Diminutive, it takes a -2 to Str so a typical smaller dragon would be Diminutive dragon with Str 9.

Since your dragon probably isn't based on the black dragon, you could decide to make it slightly weaker than how a weakened black dragon but I wouldn't make it weaker than Str 5.

Debby