Elemental Energy Types

[Tetsubo 57]

I've been thinking about elemental energy types. The standard D&D (Pathfinder) game has four elements: air, fire, water & earth. With four associated energy types: lightning, fire (duh), cold and... acid? Acid is not an energy type. This has always bugged me. So, I've been thinking of associating sonic with earth rather than acid. Earth type creatures would get sonic based attacks and defenses where they currently have acid damage. The game would still have acid based damage of course. But acid spells would all be Conjuration rather than Evocation.

I realize that sonic is not an actual energy type. But neither is cold. But it seems like a much better fit than acid to my mind.

Any thoughts?

[Gamer Girl]

I fixed this a long time ago in my games. A added an elemental energy type for each element:

Air:Air
Fire:Fire
Water:Water
Earth:Earth


The idea is that if you hit an orc with a blast of air, it's not just 'normal air', it's pure elemental magically charged and infused air.

I keep all the attack spells evocation, as they create energy. We might see water blast as 'just water', but it's not, it's elemental energy that looks like water. And in any case evocation gives it the 'force', and 'speed' and 'attack power'. If you fill a barrel up with water, that's conjuration...if you shoot a targeted blast of water at a foe to harm them, that's evocation.

[Yuki Akuma]

The general scheme goes:

Air: Lightning
Earth: Acid or Sonic*
Fire: Fire
Water: Cold

But it gets switched up all the time. There's no real connection between the elemental subtypes and energy damage types.

*Earth-subtype Elemental Stewards have a sonic attack and burrow using projected sonic screeches.

[erikun]

I've always associated sonic or acid with water. Sonic, because sound travels better underwater and thus sound-based spells would be more effective, and acid, because it is a liquid (basically modified water). The most appropriate element for earth would be force in my mind: it is very much the concept of resistent, solid earth.

Lightning as an element of air only works when we're playing with stormclouds. It doesn't seem to fit very well otherwise.

Does that cause problems mechanically? Perhaps. Then again, if earth spells deal less damage (due to being force) and is the opposite of versatile spells like Fly or Wind Wall, perhaps it isn't that bad. Besides, Orb of Force is sitting right next to Orb of Fire with the exact same properities, including damage.

[Tetsubo 57]

I've always associated sonic or acid with water. Sonic, because sound travels better underwater and thus sound-based spells would be more effective, and acid, because it is a liquid (basically modified water). The most appropriate element for earth would be force in my mind: it is very much the concept of resistent, solid earth.

Lightning as an element of air only works when we're playing with stormclouds. It doesn't seem to fit very well otherwise.

Does that cause problems mechanically? Perhaps. Then again, if earth spells deal less damage (due to being force) and is the opposite of versatile spells like Fly or Wind Wall, perhaps it isn't that bad. Besides, Orb of Force is sitting right next to Orb of Fire with the exact same properities, including damage.

But sound travels through stone even better than water. And I am trying to move acid out of the energy type category rather than shift it to water.

[erikun]

But sound travels through stone even better than water. And I am trying to move acid out of the energy type category rather than shift it to water.
As Yuki mentioned, earth = sonic is common enough in D&D materials that the substitution works well. If you're just looking to get rid of acid, that would be the way to go.

I'm just tired of water = cold, mainly because freezing things underwater is both unusually difficult and rather counterproductive. For that matter, it is chilling something is just as easy as heating something in water... and yet would typically can't boil anyone swimming in a river.

[Kojiro]

Cold: Water or Air; ice would definitely be Water, while just general cold could be Air.
Sonic: Air (Earth? Where do people get that?)
Acid: Water or Earth.
Lightning: Air, arguably Fire.
Fire: Eart- Ha ha, no, it's Fire.

[erikun]

Sonic: Air (Earth? Where do people get that?)
Sound travels faster and further through solids rather than gases, so a sonic attack through the ground would have more of an impact. That, and sonic represents a physical "hit" the most out of energy types, while earth is a very physical element.

[Shadowknight12]

I ended up breaking up the energy types into "natural" and "unnatural."

Natural: [Air], [Darkness], [Earth], [Fire], [Light] and [Water].
Unnatural: [Aetherfrost], [Blackstone], [Jadewind], [Magefire], [Utterdark] and [Whitestorm].

Then I grouped them by resistances/immunities:

Sonic: [Sonic].
Force: [Force].
Mental: [Mind-Affecting].
Life: [Life] (Positive energy effects).
Death: [Death] (Negative energy effects).
Heat: [Fire] and [Magefire].
Cold: [Aetherfrost] and [Water].
Wind: [Air] and [Jadewind].
Stone: [Blackstone] and [Earth].
Shadow: [Darkness] and [Utterdark].
Radiance: [Light] and [Whitestorm].

Acid is now part of [Water], electricity got split among [Light] and [Whitestorm].

Granted, one can use just the "natural" versions and simplify this a lot, but I rather like the idea that there are some elements that do not belong in the material plane, and that arcane magic is fundamentally different than natural magic.

[Yuki Akuma]

Sonic: Air (Earth? Where do people get that?)

From the... actual game rules.

Ever heard of Geodites?

[Thurbane]

The only potential issue with swapping acid for sonic is that it would make earth a slightly stronger element, since far fewer creatures have sonic resistance than have acid resistance. Not a huge deal, but something to be aware of.

The Rules Compendium has a little sidebar explaining some of the thought process behind making acid an "energy type"...lets just say it was done more for ease and utility than for simulationism.

[Graytemplar]

i like ur idea of swapping acid out of the scheme of things, but i dont believe sound is an appropriate substitute. What if you were to make it physical? rather than force, have an earth based spell create a rock, as previously mentioned this is still evocation because you are drawing on earth energy that manifests to appear as a rock. Such a spell could remain as a ranged touch attack, but rather deal bludgeoning damage. Note that as a ranged touch attack it would still bypass armor because it is earth energy not just a clump of earth.


Also, im sure you can find something similiar somewhere, but this opens up doors to spells that would effectively magnetize the target. Similiar to fire balls setting enemies ablaze and cold spells having a slow effect. This effect could lower the target's ac vs projectiles, and each round he should roll a d4, 1=no effect, 2 = d4 bludgeoning as small objects in the environment batter him, 3= 2d8 as weighty obstacles begin to fly at him, and 4= 3d10 as anything from fist sized stones to boulders crush the unfortunate victim.

wow i probably got more into that than i should have, but there u go!

[Mastikator]

If we're going by the scientific definition of energy then the energy types in D&D are kind of energy most of the times.

Fire, a result of chemical reaction, i.e, energy
Acid, not energy, but corrosion- the thing that results from acid, is energy.
Sonic, a high amplitude wave in the air. Wave, therefore energy. (so yes, sonic is totally an energy attack).
Electricity, is a form of energy we use in our day to day lives.
Cold, not an energy, it's a lack of energy even.
Force, it's not defined what kind of energy this is. Scientifically force is not energy, force is energy divided by length.

Verdict; The energies that are energy are fire, acid, sonic and electricity, cold and force? not so much.
Positive and negative? Not even close.

[Yuki Akuma]

Sound is not a wave of energy in air. It's a wave of energy in any sort of matter.

Sound travels best through solid objects.

[Mastikator]

True, you can receive sonic damage while underwater.