[3.5] Help needed for character creation

[Valnar]

Hi there GitP Forums, I come to you today seeking help, for I desperately need it and you are the most competent roleplaying comunity I know.

This weekend I am going to play D&D for the first time in my life. It's not my first roleplaying game, so the basics of roleplaying are not new to me. The D&D 3.5 system, however, is and it's proving to be quite challenging in all it's complex glory.
I already tried creating my character from scratch using THIS (http://www.pathguy.com/cg35.htm) character creation tool, but all the builds I was able to come up with were far from optimized and generally not exactly what I had in mind for my character.
So what I really need right now is somebody who more or less does all the real work for me by telling me what kind of abilities I should prioritize, and what classes and feats I should take.
Of course, I already more or less know what kind of character I want, so I can at least give you a general idea of what I need:

Basically I want my character to be a classic Swashbuckler - preferably utilizing at least some levels of the class named after the stereotype.
I was thinking of a char with chaotic neutral alignment, a chivalrous scoundrel not unlike characters like "Jack Sparrow" or "Zevran" from Dragon Age.
You know, the kind who isn't exactly abiding to the law, who steals from the rich and kidnaps their pretty daughters, threatening their chasteness should their families refuse to pay the ransom, but who wouldn't actually harm the poor and/or innocent and who tries to avoid killing whenever possible. A criminal, yes, but with class, style and a distinct sense of morals and honor.
He should be charming, clever, fast and overall well-rounded in his skills - a Jack of all trades, if you will, who can at least improvise his way out of most situations.

So yeah, skills are the most important aspect, but being a good fighter and dealing some serious damage would be nice too, although I think I can live with a more or less average performance as well.
I'd also like to keep this character for a while, so it'd be nice if he had some means of defending himself - preferably not by hiding him under several layers of armor.

The DM allowed me to create a level 8 character, he didn't specify a race to use and only restricted the alignment to something not evil - so chaotic neutral should be safe. So far I've been thinking of using a Dark Elf, because I think it would go nicely considering flavor as well as the race bonuses granted.

Now I would like to know which abilities to prioritize and which to drop, what classes and feats to take to get as many skill points to spend as possible (without ruining the flavor of course) and, if there is still room for more optimization, how to make at least a decent fighter out of this char.

I know I'm asking for a lot here, but as I said I am really, really new to the system and I don't just want to use a pre-built character since I already have quite a good idea of what I actually want to play flavor wise.
So please, have mercy on a new player and help me make this into a workable character.

Thank you very much in advance!

[Keld Denar]

The basic concept of the build you are looking for revolves around the "Daring Outlaw" feat in Complete Scoundrel. It allows you to stack levels in Rogue + Swashbuckler together to determine the bonuses granted by Sneak Attack and Grace.

Thus, a Swashbuckler4/Rogue4 would have the same SA damage and Grace bonus as a Swashbuckler8 and Rogue8 respectively, but would only have the other class features (Uncanny Dodge, Trap Sense, etc) of a 4th level character of each.

It requires at LEAST 2 levels of Swashbuckler and 3 levels of Rogue to take, and most of the common builds are Rogue4/Swash16 or very similar.

This puts full SA damage progression on a slightly more durable chassis (Swashbuckler is d10 HD and full BAB) allowing you to be a formitable melee combatant.

If you take Able Learner (Races of Destiny, must be Human), you can also forever put skill points in skills on a 1 point : 1 rank basis. That means that while you'll be getting fewer skill points/level, you can still keep a few really important skills topped off if you want.

Regardless of which you pick, I'd tend to encourage you to NOT choose drow as a race. They have a +2 LA, which means that two of your character "levels" aren't giving you any abilities. No HP, no BAB, no nothing. The racial bonuses ARE nice, but not nice enough to make up for that lack. A Drow Fighter6 is expected to face the same challenges as a Human Fighter8, despite having 2 fewer levels. If you want elven flavor, Grey Elves get +2 Dex and +2 Int (your strong abilities for Daring Outlaw), and suffer penalties to Str and Cha, which, while useful, don't have to be maxed.

That said, it is YOUR character, just making some suggestions.

EDIT: As far as I can tell, none of my suggestions will clash with your desired "roleplaying" elements. We here at the playground generally will not give you "roleplaying" advice. We'll simply help you build a character that fits within your desired realm of thought and are mechanically sound. Its up to you to breath life into that shell and make it a character.

[gorfnab]

Factotum might be an option (handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2720.0)).

If you don't want to wear armor consider going with the Daring Outlaw build mentioned above and throw in 2 levels of Invisible Fist (Exemplars of Evil) Monk with the feat Carmendine Monk (Champions of Valor). This will net you Int mod to AC and Invisibility every 3 rounds.

Here are two other "Swashbuckler" builds I've toyed with recently.

Human
1. Cobra Strike (UA) Monk - Camendine Monk, Combat Expertise, B: Dodge
2. Cobra Strike (UA) Monk - B: Mobility
3. Swashbuckler - Deadly Defense, B: Weapon Finesse
4. Swashbuckler
5. Swashbuckler
6. Thief Acrobat - Combat Reflexes
7. Thief Acrobat
8. Thief Acrobat
9. Thief Acrobat - Einhander
10. Thief Acrobat
11. Warblade
12. Warblade - Ironheart Aura
13. Duelist
14. Duelist
15. Duelist - Robilar's Gambit
16. Duelist
17. Duelist
18. Duelist - Stormgaurd Warrior
19. Duelist
20. Duelist


Human
1. Cobra Strike (UA) Monk - Camendine Monk, Combat Expertise, B: Dodge
2. Cobra Strike (UA) Monk - B: Mobility
3. Swashbuckler - EWP Broadblade Shortword (pre-errata version) B: Weapon Finesse
4. Swashbuckler
5. Swashbuckler
6. Thief Acrobat - Deadly Defense
7. Thief Acrobat
8. Thief Acrobat
9. Thief Acrobat - Einhander
10. Thief Acrobat
11. Duelist
12. Duelist - Combat Reflexes
13. Duelist
14. Duelist
15. Duelist - Robilar's Gambit
16. Duelist
17. Duelist
18. Duelist - Karmic Strike
19. Duelist - B: Deflect Arrows
20. Duelist

[Lord Ruby34]

I'd go with Keld's build but with one change. Play a human. You want to keep your skill points up and you want to be good in combat. You get the same amount of skill points you would as a grey elf, but a bonus feat instead of the stat adjustments. Bonus feats are nice. You can use it to start to grab the two weapon fighting line, or if your DM is nice, a less feat intensive fix. Like this one. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11092630)

But if you want to go elf grey elf is your best choice. Or at least a pretty good one.

[SleepyBadger]

I really like this build! It is Zevran alright :smallsmile: I would also suggest against picking a drow or any other class that has a +2 level adjustment. Ever. And if yout DM goes by standard PHB rules this class combo would have an XP penalty if you pick a drow (or a grey elf). You're still safe with a human build though and the Able Learner feat is truly a good one for the fighter / skillmonkey type character you would like to create.

[Valnar]

Thanks for your advice, everyone!

I don't really care all that much for playing an elf, pretty much anything that looks more or less human and has good bonuses will do for me:smallbiggrin:

Daring Outlaw sounds like a good direction to take this character. I will further look into this and write again should there be any questions - though there is one I already have: Which abilities are important and which can be dropped?

For now, thanks again for helping me, it is very much appreciated :)

[Xtomjames]

See Swashbuckler in Complete Warrior page 11.

Swashbuckler can be started right off as a normal class though I do suggest taking Scout or Rogue first and then multiclassing into Swashbuckler.

Racially speaking Halflings are better than Dark Elves/Drow for this purpose, as are Tengu (especially the Pathfinder version). Catfolk are also exceptionally well suited for the class.

Now Pathguy's generator is great, but you need to know what to take to actually make a good build.

If you're starting at level 8, I'd go either Tengu or Catfolk (+0 level adjustment and +1 level adjustment respectively). Tengu (out of Pathfinder) give you sword trained (you're proficient with all weapons that are sword like), Catfolk give bonuses to dexterity and charisma which are important to a Swashbuckler.

Feats: Quick Draw and Quick Reconnoiter are my suggestions for feats.

I'll include a build below for you to review in the spoiler.

Puss in Boots, Cpt
Male Catfolk Swashbuckler 8
Chaotic Neutral



Strength 14 (+2)
Dexterity 22 (+6)
Constitution 16 (+3)
Intelligence 14 (+2)
Wisdom 15 (+2)
Charisma 19 (+4)
Size: Medium
Height: 5' 7"
Weight: 195 lb
Skin: Tan
Eyes: Blue
Hair: Black Straight; Beardless




Total Hit Points: 74

Speed: 30 feet

Armor Class: 18 = 10 +2 [leather] +6 [dexterity]

Touch AC: 16
Flat-footed: 12
Initiative modifier: +6 = +6 [dexterity]
Fortitude save: +9 = 6 [base] +3 [constitution]
Reflex save: +9 = 2 [base] +6 [dexterity] +1 [swashbuckler]
Will save: +4 = 2 [base] +2 [wisdom]
Attack (handheld): +10/+5 = 8 [base] +2 [strength]
Weapon Finesse: +14/+9 = 8 [base] +6 [dexterity]
Attack (unarmed): +10/+5 = 8 [base] +2 [strength]
Attack (missile): +14/+9 = 8 [base] +6 [dexterity]
Grapple check: +10/+5 = 8 [base] +2 [strength]


Light load:
Medium load:
Heavy load:
Lift over head:
Lift off ground:
Push or drag:
58 lb. or less
59-116 lb.
117-175 lb.
175 lb.
350 lb.
875 lb.




Languages: Common Draconic Catfolk Sylvan


Kukri [1d4, crit 18-20/x2, 2 lb., light, slashing]

Rapier [1d6, crit 18-20/x2, 2 lb., one-handed, piercing]

Leather armor [light; +2 AC; max dex +6; check penalty 0; 15 lb.]


Feats:

Combat Reflexes
Quick Draw
Close Quarters Fighting
Weapon Finesse

Traits:

Dishonest


Skill Name Key
Ability Skill
Modifier Ability
Modifier Ranks Misc.
Modifier
Appraise Int 2 = +2
Balance Dex* 13 = +6 +5 +2 [tumble]
Bluff Cha 10 = +4 +5 +1 [dishonest]
Climb Str* 7 = +2 +5
Concentration Con 3 = +3
Craft_1 Int 2 = +2
Craft_2 Int 2 = +2
Craft_3 Int 2 = +2
Diplomacy Cha 6 = +4 +2 [bluff] +2 [sense motive] -2 [dishonest]
Disguise Cha 4 = +4
Escape Artist Dex* 16 = +6 +10
Forgery Int 2 = +2
Gather Information Cha 4 = +4
Heal Wis 2 = +2
Hide Dex* 6 = +6
Intimidate Cha 6 = +4 +2 [bluff]
Jump Str* 9 = +2 +5 +2 [tumble]
Listen Wis 6.5 = +2 +2.5 +2 [catfolk]
Move Silently Dex* 8 = +6 +2 [catfolk]
Perform_1 Cha 4 = +4
Perform_2 Cha 4 = +4
Perform_3 Cha 4 = +4
Perform_4 Cha 4 = +4
Perform_5 Cha 4 = +4
Profession Wis 7 = +2 +5
Ride Dex 6 = +6
Search Int 2 = +2
Sense Motive Wis 7 = +2 +5
Spot Wis 2 = +2
Survival Wis 2 = +2
Swim Str** 7 = +2 +5
Tumble Dex* 19 = +6 +11 +2 [jump]
Use Rope Dex 11 = +6 +5


* = check penalty for wearing armor

Bluff >=5 ranks gives +2 on disguise checks to act in character.
Escape Artist >=5 ranks gives +2 on use rope checks for bindings.
Use Rope >=5 ranks gives +2 on climb checks involving ropes.
Use Rope >=5 ranks gives +2 on escape artist checks involving ropes.


Catfolk:


Cat-headed humanoids.

+4 dexterity, +2 charisma have been added already.

Level adjustment +1.

Low-light vision.

+2 racial bonus on listen and move silently.


Swashbuckler:

Free weapon finesse feat

+1 on reflex saves (already included)(level 2)

Insightful strike (level 3)
Dodge bonus +1 (level 5)
Acrobatic Charge (level 7)
Improved Flanking (level 8)
Dodge bonus +2 (level 10)
Lucky (level 11)
+2 on reflex saves (already included)(level 11)

Acrobatic Skill Mastery (level 13)
Weakening Critical (level 14)
Dodge bonus +3 (level 15)
Slippery Mind (level 17)
Dodge bonus +4 (level 20)
+3 on reflex saves (already included)(level 20)


Class HP rolled
Level 1: Swashbuckler 10
Level 2: Swashbuckler 5
Level 3: Swashbuckler 5
Level 4: Swashbuckler 6 +1 to constitution
Level 5: Swashbuckler 8
Level 6: Swashbuckler 3
Level 7: Swashbuckler 10
Level 8: Swashbuckler 3 +1 to charisma




Puss in Boots, Cpt's Equipment:


19 lb
2 lb
5 lb
5 lb


1 lb


5 lb
2 lb

4 lb
2 lb
1 lb
2 lb
10 lb


1 lb
4 lb
5 lb
_____
68 lb Weapons / Armor / Shield (from above)
Backpack
Bedroll
Block and tackle
Bottle
Candle
Canvas (10 x 10)
Chalk
Fishhook
Fishing net
Flasks x1
Flint and steel
Grappling hook
Oil flasks x2
Pouch x1
Rations (1 day) x2
Rope (50', hempen) x1
Sewing needle
Signal whistle
Spyglass
Waterskins x1
Climber's kit
:

[excruciarch]

a Jack of all trades, if you will

That's exactly what they say about Factotum (Dungeonscape page 14).

[SleepyBadger]

I guess if you want to use your sneak attack efficiently you should probably go melee (if you make an archer type you cannot flank characters). So strength would be important for you. And if you want to be a skilled character you shouldn't dump intelligence. Constitution is good for any character especially for fighter types. However, if you want two-weapon-fighting as it was suggested you will have to raise your Dexterity. This will also help your Armor Class. Your Wisdom modifier would add to your Will save and skills like Listen, Spot, etc. I think it's really up to you. Some of your abilities will also benefit from high charisma. This is pretty basic but you said you have no experience with 3.5 whatsoever.

[Keld Denar]

Depends a lot on your character.

I'd pick EITHER Str or Dex (not both). You get Weapon Finesse for free, but you don't HAVE to use it. You'll get a little bit better synergy with your skills like Tumble and Hide with Dex focus, but you'll get a little bit better damage output with Str focus, especially with a 2handed weapon.

After that, I'd put your next highest stat in Con or Int. Con is REALLY important. You are a melee character, and you will be in either light or no armor. That means you need some sort of alternative defense to not become a smear on the dungeon wall. Con provides you with a VERY strong defense. It gives you a stronger Fort save which prevents enemy magic from turning you inside out (seriously, there IS a spell for that), and gives you more HP which helps prevent enemy swords from discovering what color you liver is. Int gives you more skill points (which is important, especially given that Swashbucklers (the bulk of your levels) get significantly fewer skill points than a straight Rogue. It also gives you +damage via Insightful Strike (Swash3), so thats good.

Unfortunately, that leaves Wisdom and Charisma (and which ever you didn't pick of Str or Dex) as your lowest stats. That is sad because your will save will be low (hello Dominate) and Jack/Zeveren are very charismatic. That said, skill ranks in Diplomacy and/or Bluff can make a bigger differance than base stats, so even with a 10 or 12 Cha, you can still be very persuasive.

Lots of folks go with TWFing for Daring Outlaw, which is a Dex based build. More attacks = more SA damage, it scales geometrically. That said, I still like the idea of SAing with a greatsword while Power Attacking. Its got a certain flair to it.

A couple of other feats I'll highly recommend are Craven (Champions of Ruin) and Staggering Strike (CWarrior). Craven is fun because you get to add your character level to damage when you SA someone. That amounts to a LOT of damage, and because it is static damage, can multiply on a critical hit. Unfortunately, it makes you an oportunistic coward, which may or may not fit you (Jack often ran from fights with overwhelming odds, and avoided fair fights in general, so it kinda fits). Staggering Strike means that a foe you poke with SA damage has to make a big save or be affected by all of the limitations of the Staggered (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm) condition. That means that that foe can't full attack you back, which is a proactive defense against getting killed to death by too many unlucky greatclub blows to the side of the head.

[Valnar]

Wow, that are some really awesome responses, thank you very much. I can't really express how much you are helping me here!

I think I'm going for Dex>Int>Con>Cha>Str>Wis, does that sound okay?

Concerning the fighting style I think that neither Two-Weapon-Fighting nor using huge Weapons like Greatswords, nor Daggers really fit the character I have in mind.
And don't even get me started on ranged combat :D So yeah, the only thing I can really see my character wielding is some kind of rapier. Of course this could be very foolish for optimization, so it'd be great if we could find some kind of clever solution for this.

[Keld Denar]

Its not foolish. It does free up feat slots normally spent on TWFing (3 feats in total, at minimum) for doing other things.

If you take Craven, then Improved Critical isn't a BAD option. Craven damage (along with your +Int damage from Insightful Strike) are both static bonuses, and thus multiply on a crit.

The only caveat to that is that foes who are immune to crits are also immune to SA. Thats spending feats to put more eggs into one basket. If you don't think you'll be fighting a lot of undead/constructs/plants/oozes/elementals, then by all means, crit away. If you do...you might want to consider seeking abilities elsewhere.

If you DO think you'll be fighting foes from one of the above catagories, you'll really want to look at the Penetrating Strike or Lightbringer Rogue ACFs (Dungeonscape and Expedition to Castle Ravenloft respectively). They allow you do still deal half your SA dice against foes that are normally immune, as long as you are flanking. Fortunately, Craven damage isn't SA "dice", and thus still applies 100%, just as long as you hit. That helps take undead, constructs, and plants off that list, which just leaves you with oozes and elementals (which can't be flanked).

Also, don't neglect Use Magic Device. It is your SINGLE STRONGEST SKILL. Keep it maxed out. Pick up every random wand/staff/widget/do-hickey you can find. Wave them around until magic comes out of them. Some things just don't want to die a stabbity death, so having a veritable toolbox of options available to be drawn is a VERY useful tactic.

[Urpriest]

Wow, that are some really awesome responses, thank you very much. I can't really express how much you are helping me here!

I think I'm going for Dex>Int>Con>Cha>Str>Wis, does that sound okay?

Concerning the fighting style I think that neither Two-Weapon-Fighting nor using huge Weapons like Greatswords, nor Daggers really fit the character I have in mind.
And don't even get me started on ranged combat :D So yeah, the only thing I can really see my character wielding is some kind of rapier. Of course this could be very foolish for optimization, so it'd be great if we could find some kind of clever solution for this.

Using a single Rapier isn't all that great, since you're getting fewer attacks than a Two-Weapon type and don't deal the sort of damage that someone with a Two-Hander and the Power Attack feat can. I'd recommend pairing the Rapier with a dagger or the like in the off-hand. Rapier-and-dagger was a very common historical style among swashbuckler-types.

[Valnar]

Its not foolish. It does free up feat slots normally spent on TWFing (3 feats in total, at minimum) for doing other things.

If you take Craven, then Improved Critical isn't a BAD option. Craven damage (along with your +Int damage from Insightful Strike) are both static bonuses, and thus multiply on a crit.

The only caveat to that is that foes who are immune to crits are also immune to SA. Thats spending feats to put more eggs into one basket. If you don't think you'll be fighting a lot of undead/constructs/plants/oozes/elementals, then by all means, crit away. If you do...you might want to consider seeking abilities elsewhere.

If you DO think you'll be fighting foes from one of the above catagories, you'll really want to look at the Penetrating Strike or Lightbringer Rogue ACFs (Dungeonscape and Expedition to Castle Ravenloft respectively). They allow you do still deal half your SA dice against foes that are normally immune, as long as you are flanking. Fortunately, Craven damage isn't SA "dice", and thus still applies 100%, just as long as you hit. That helps take undead, constructs, and plants off that list, which just leaves you with oozes and elementals (which can't be flanked).

Also, don't neglect Use Magic Device. It is your SINGLE STRONGEST SKILL. Keep it maxed out. Pick up every random wand/staff/widget/do-hickey you can find. Wave them around until magic comes out of them. Some things just don't want to die a stabbity death, so having a veritable toolbox of options available to be drawn is a VERY useful tactic.

Alright, great, you really know how to make this sound totally awesome :D

Now I'm pretty sure the only question left is: How many levels should I take in each of the two classes and is there a special order in which I should take them?


@Urpriest: Meh. Thank you for your advice, but I think I'm going to stick with flavor over usability on this one. As much as optimization is great and important, I'd much rather deal less damage with style than crush my enemies at the expense of my personal enjoyment^^

[Urpriest]

Alright, great, you really know how to make this sound totally awesome :D

Now I'm pretty sure the only question left is: How many levels should I take in each of the two classes and is there a special order in which I should take them?


@Urpriest: Meh. Thank you for your advice, but I think I'm going to stick with flavor over usability on this one. As much as optimization is great and important, I'd much rather deal less damage with style than crush my enemies at the expense of my personal enjoyment^^

No worries. Rogues are still fine with just one weapon. In fact, a few posters here prefer them that way.

You'll probably want four levels of each, as mentioned earlier, with later levels put in Swashbuckler. This will make your base attack bonus only one lower than a fighter, which means you won't have much difficulty hitting with your attacks. Your first level should be Rogue because it gives you lots of skill points, after that the order doesn't matter very much.

[Keld Denar]

See, I'd actually do something like:

Rogue1/Swash3/Rogue+3/Swash+13

or even

Rogue1/Swash3/Rogue+2/Swash+2-3/Rogue+1/Swash+rest

That gives you the MOST skill points at level 1 (although you'll probably have to hang back and use your short bow at this level since you won't have Weapon Finesse). Then, you quickly raise your BAB, HP, and bring Insightful Strike online, which is generally worth a tiny bit more than a single SA die. From there, you hop back into Rogue for at least 2 levels to qualify for Daring Outlaw at level 6 (the earliest you can take it). That'll be a big power boost. After that, you have 1 more Rogue level to take, and you can either take it there, or delay it a couple levels to allow you to really fill up some skills.

On a Human chassis, I'd build your feats:

1st Improved Init
H Able Learner
2 Weapon Finesse (bonus from Swash1)
3 Craven
6 Daring Outlaw
9 Improved Critical?
12 - 18 other cool stuff.

That'll keep you busy for a long while, k?

[Lord Ruby34]

Try Darkstalker if you want to be a stealthy character. It'll save you more than once.

[Keld Denar]

Good point. Darkstalker is from Lords of Madness, and will protect you from various detection abilities like Tremorsense, Scent, Blindsense, and Blindsight, as long as you can make the Hide checks.

[Valnar]

Alright, I think I am done so far. I ended up doing it pretty much like you suggested, Keld Denar, with just a few minor changes in the order of class progression and ALMOST maximum ranks in "Use Magic Device" ;-)

Again, thank you very much for your awesome help! I think I am ready to go adventuring now :D