Lots o' sneak attack dice

[Mr. Anon Omys]

Salutations, playgrounders. This post, my request to you is for a level 20 character with at least 20d6 sneak attack damage. While there may already be threads on this, I am not a skilled enough (read: I'm lazy) user of google to find it. I thank all responders, even those off topic, in advance.

[kharmakazy]

Uh.. Gestalt Rogue 20//something 1/Sneak attack fighter variant 19? (if alternating their sneak attack advancement works...)

I don't think there is one absent shenanigans I am unaware of. But the next poster will post the build, guaranteed.:smallbiggrin:

[Ashram]

Well, there's the original +2 bonus Deadly Precision enhancement that grants +2d6 SA (Complete Adventurer, make sure your DM doesn't find the errata-ed +1 version :P), Rogue's Vest grants +1d6 SA (Magic Item Compendium), Assassination grants +1d6 SA for a +1 bonus (Cityscape Web Enhancement). Also think of taking Craven (Forgotten Realms: Champions of Ruin), which gives a -2 penalty on Will saves against fear but grants you your character level to damage on sneak attacks.

Anything beyond those is pretty cheesy, and thus out of my range of knowledge. It all depends on if you're willing to dip into other classes or if you want to go straight rogue (Which most likely 90% of people will tell you not to.)

[Cog]

A Rogue/Wizard/Unseen Seer/Red Wizard with the Hunter's Eye spell should be able to pull this off.

The gestalt trick would not work, as you would only take the better progression, and both progressions are equal at 1d6 per two levels.

[Dusk Eclipse]

A Rogue/Wizard/Unseen Seer/Red Wizard with the Hunter's Eye spell should be able to pull this off.

The gestalt trick would not work, as you would only take the better progression, and both progressions are equal at 1d6 per two levels.

Change rogue for Spellthieve and add Master Spellthief (with a bit of rules laywering you can get a CL increase loop)

[Cog]

...with a bit of rules laywering you can get a CL increase loop...
That's precisely what I was trying to avoid, though. The suggested build works without any questionable interpretations.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Yeah, guess I should have added a :smalltongue: at the end of the post.

[Cog]

Fair enough!

[Seerow]

Well, there's the original +2 bonus Deadly Precision enhancement that grants +2d6 SA (Complete Adventurer, make sure your DM doesn't find the errata-ed +1 version :P), Rogue's Vest grants +1d6 SA (Magic Item Compendium), Assassination grants +1d6 SA for a +1 bonus (Cityscape Web Enhancement). Also think of taking Craven (Forgotten Realms: Champions of Ruin), which gives a -2 penalty on Will saves against fear but grants you your character level to damage on sneak attacks.

Anything beyond those is pretty cheesy, and thus out of my range of knowledge. It all depends on if you're willing to dip into other classes or if you want to go straight rogue (Which most likely 90% of people will tell you not to.)

You forgot Assassin Stance, which is another 2d6. You can pick it up with a quick dip into swordsage or a feat.

[Gavinfoxx]

Google "list of stuff D&D"

[Kantolin]

Two levels of Lurk gets you +1d6 constant sneak attack, and you can spend 2pp to get an additional +1d6 sneak attack via augment.

Which is less useful than '+2d6 sneak attack', but hey. :P I like lurks!

If you can get a manifester level of 34, you can just augment yourself up to +20d6 sneak attack (With the 4d6 lurks get on theri own)

[kharmakazy]

I always thought it was retarded that you could gestalt wizard//cleric but rogue//rogue doesn't work. DMs should be worried about massive amounts of spells before they start concerning themselves with double sneak attacks. Sometimes RAW leaves me raw.:smalleek:

[The Gilded Duke]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/gloom.htm

Get up to Caster level or manifester level 25. Shapechange into a gloom. (25 hd is the shapechange limit) Note that sneak attack +13d6 is listed as an extraordinary attack ability. Use other spells, items, feats to get the rest of the way. Cast Telekinesis or Telekinetic thrust.

Have your familiar cast silent image somehow on your turn before any of your enemies have a chance to disbelieve. Sniper's eye to remove range limit on sneak attack.

Sneak attack all the things.

[dextercorvia]

Neraph Factotum 19

Cunning Brilliance for Rogue, Sneak Attack Fighter, and Psychic Rogue. Spend 12 IP to gain +27d6 Sneak Attack for one minute. If that isn't enough, use Polymorph as a SLA to change into a Kelvezu for another +8d6.

[Redshirt Army]

Neraph Factotum 19

Cunning Brilliance for Rogue, Sneak Attack Fighter, and Psychic Rogue. Spend 12 IP to gain +27d6 Sneak Attack for one minute. If that isn't enough, use Polymorph as a SLA to change into a Kelvezu for another +8d6.

Didn't Curmudgeon and some other people just have a discussion about how the Factotum can only spend 1 IP on Cunning Strike? :smallconfused:

[Dusk Eclipse]

Didn't Curmudgeon and some other people just have a discussion about how the Factotum can only spend 1 IP on Cunning Strike? :smallconfused:

Cunning Brilliance is the capstone, which let's you get any EX ability of a class up to 15 level, though IIRC there is some debate on whether Sneak attack is an EX ability.

[Heatwizard]

Didn't Curmudgeon and some other people just have a discussion about how the Factotum can only spend 1 IP on Cunning Strike? :smallconfused:

Well, that argument came up thoroughly inconclusive. But, unless I'm mistaken, the idea is to use the capstone "copy other class features" ability and pick Sneak Attack +8d6 from Rogue 15 three times, and just crack them all at once.

edit: Alas, I lost the race.

[dextercorvia]

Cunning Brilliance is the capstone, which let's you get any EX ability of a class up to 15 level, though IIRC there is some debate on whether Sneak attack is an EX ability.

It is listed as such in each monster description that has it. I've heard the argument that it is natural, but I think that most DM's would except that it is Ex.

If 8d6 is the commonly accepted number, then I need to drop my estimate by 6d6. Also, does anyone know a class with a better progression than Psychic Rogue? He is the weak link in the above.

[Dusk Eclipse]

One could argue it is an EX ability for the monster and a Natural ability for the classes; but I agree it is splitting hairs in any case I don't think it is OP to allow a high level factotum to copy Sneak attack.

Ant the only other base class that I remember having full SA progression is the Rokugan Ninja; but it is third party

[dextercorvia]

One could argue it is an EX ability for the monster and a Natural ability for the classes; but I agree it is splitting hairs in any case I don't think it is OP to allow a high level factotum to copy Sneak attack.

Ant the only other base class that I remember having full SA progression is the Rokugan Ninja; but it is third party

The argument could be made, but it would seem to me that if a Monster gets it by virtue of being the monster as an Ex ability, then a Rogue who learns how to do it treats it like a natural ability, then something is screwy. Not that that makes a great RAW argument or anything. Is there anything with better than +5d6 by 15th level?

[Dusk Eclipse]

Not that I know of.

[Cog]

For Cunning Brilliance, the ability needs to be available to that other class by 15th level, but you still use it as if your level in that class were equal to your Factotum level, so that's 16d6 from Rogue+PsyRogue.

[dextercorvia]

That's how I calculated it first. Then, Cunning Brilliance for Rogue, Simple Fighter variant, Psychic Rogue after polymorphing into a Kelvezu for a total of 35d6 for one encounter. You can also use Nightstalker's Transformation, for another 3d6, but that seems like a crappy use of a standard action.

[Cog]

That's how I calculated it first.
The thread seemed to have lost track of that, though.

[Curmudgeon]

The argument could be made, but it would seem to me that if a Monster gets it by virtue of being the monster as an Ex ability, then a Rogue who learns how to do it treats it like a natural ability, then something is screwy.
Swinging a sword accurately, rapidly, and powerfully is all natural in D&D, too. There's nothing Extraordinary about that sort of stuff for PCs: it's just a matter of lots of training and experience (class levels). Why would learning to aim at somebody's throat or kidneys be more Extraordinary than learning to make a bunch of powerful swings every 6 seconds? Making such accurate attacks at vulnerable points without training is pretty Extraordinary, and that explains whey monster sneak attack is listed as such.

[dextercorvia]

Swinging a sword accurately, rapidly, and powerfully is all natural in D&D, too. There's nothing Extraordinary about that sort of stuff for PCs: it's just a matter of lots of training and experience (class levels). Why would learning to aim at somebody's throat or kidneys be more Extraordinary than learning to make a bunch of powerful swings every 6 seconds? Making such accurate attacks at vulnerable points without training is pretty Extraordinary, and that explains whey monster sneak attack is listed as such.

It is listed as an Extraordinary ability for some classes as well. Maybe sneak attack just comes Naturally to Rogues.

[Amoren]

Hmmm, in the line of the Unseen Seer direction...

Rogue 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer 5/Arcane Trickster 10, with Practiced Caster.

Base Sneak Attack of 8d6. Caster Level of 20, should be easily able to bump up to 24 with items and Divination Spell power (easily), that'll net you +8d6 more sneak attack and you can persist it at that level. Bringing you up to 16d6.

Add in the items from above and you'll reach 20d6 easily, BAB is a bit lacking but you can get Divine Power into your spell list and somehow persist it (a bit easier if there's an incantatrix in the party ot persist it for ya).

For even more awesomeness, add in the Nightstalker Transformation after you've persisted Hunter's Eye and Divine Power, and now you get even more sneak attack and all the lovely rogue abilities you've missed out on.

[Seerow]

Hmmm, in the line of the Unseen Seer direction...

Rogue 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer 5/Arcane Trickster 10, with Practiced Caster.

Base Sneak Attack of 8d6. Caster Level of 20, should be easily able to bump up to 24 with items and Divination Spell power (easily), that'll net you +8d6 more sneak attack and you can persist it at that level. Bringing you up to 16d6.

Add in the items from above and you'll reach 20d6 easily, BAB is a bit lacking but you can get Divine Power into your spell list and somehow persist it (a bit easier if there's an incantatrix in the party ot persist it for ya).

For even more awesomeness, add in the Nightstalker Transformation after you've persisted Hunter's Eye and Divine Power, and now you get even more sneak attack and all the lovely rogue abilities you've missed out on.

I thought Hunter's Eye was a ranger only spell.

[thompur]

AFB but, if you gestalt Rogue//Binder, there are atleast 2 vestiges that grant SA/Sudden Strike, and if you combind them with Assassins Stance, that should get you to 20. I'll verify this when I get home from work.

[Cog]

I thought Hunter's Eye was a ranger only spell.
It's a divination, and Unseen Seer lets you grab a few of those off any list.

[Seerow]

It's a divination, and Unseen Seer lets you grab a few of those off any list.

Ah. That makes sense I guess.

[Fouredged Sword]

Spellthief / Sa fighter / assasin / rouge 17 gets 12d6 sneak attack. We can get another 3 from items, and 2 from martial stance (assasins stance)

That leaves us with 17.

We need 6 more dips to obtain a non spell based 20d6 sneak attack.

useing the higher item values (questionable needs DM allowence) gets us to 18, needing only 4 dips. ninja may qualify with suden strike, geting us 18 with 3 dips needed.

Complete scoundrel has the monk / ninja stacking feat. If it stacks sudden strike (I am AFB right now) it would be posible to be a ninja / rouge / monk and get monk levels to count as ninja and rouge levels for sudden strike and sneak attack. That should get us within the 5d6 threashold for 20d6 sneak attack after items.

This will take a PrC dive and I am away from book right now.

[dextercorvia]

For even more awfulness, add in the Nightstalker Transformation after you've persisted Hunter's Eye and Divine Power, and now you get even more sneak attack and all the lovely rogue abilities you've missed out on.

FTFY.

Nightstalker Tranformation is awful for a caster. You lose spellcasting. The only reason I suggested it on a Factotum is that they are using SLAs.

[thompur]

A 20th level Binder can get 5 SA dice from Andromalius, and 6 Sudden Strike dice from Malphus. At 8th level you could bind them both, getting 2d6 from Andy, and 3d6 from Mal. One level of binder and the Improved binding feat gets you 1d6 SS from Mal. Three levels of binder and the Improved binding feat gets you 2d6 SA from Andy. I don't know if that helps.

[JaronK]

One could argue it is an EX ability for the monster and a Natural ability for the classes; but I agree it is splitting hairs in any case I don't think it is OP to allow a high level factotum to copy Sneak attack.

Both FAQ and Rules of the Game say it's Ex... in fact all non magical class abilities other than ones based on physical form (such as claw attacks from Wildshape) are Ex abilities. The rules descriptions also state that natural abilities are only those abilities which are innate to the physical form... which class based abilities obviously aren't. So no, one really can't argue that any such ability is a Natural Ability with any actual backing in the rules.

More to the point:


Rules of the Game: All About Polymorph:

Special Attack: A unique or unusual ability a creature can use to harm or hinder other creatures.

Special Quality: A unique or unusual ability a creature has that is not offensive in nature.

Extraordinary Ability: Extraordinary abilities are nonmagical. They are, however, not something that just anyone can do or even learn to do without natural talent or extensive training. Effects or areas that negate or disrupt magic have no effect on extraordinary abilities.

Extraordinary abilities often depend on particular physical adaptations that a creature has. Changing form often strips the recipient of some extraordinary abilities, but grants some extraordinary abilities that the assumed form has. In general, when you assume a new form, you lose any extraordinary special attacks and special qualities you have unless you get them from a character class. You usually gain any extraordinary special attacks your assumed form has, but not the assumed form's extraordinary special qualities. That's because most extraordinary special attacks are based off gross physical features (such a big, nasty claws and teeth) while extraordinary special qualities tend to be subtler and largely derived from a creature's essential nature.

...

Natural Ability: This term is a catch-all for just about anything a creature can do (or characteristic that it has) that is not extraordinary, spell-like, or supernatural. Natural abilities include most speed ratings (some very high speeds are not "natural," see the section on the alter self spell), mode of breathing (lungs, gills), natural armor and weaponry, general appearance, body type, and the presence or absence of the five basic senses (sight, hearing, touch, taste, pain). When polymorphing, you generally lose your own natural abilities and gain those of your assumed form.

See also the PHBs definition of Natural Abilities, including the one in the glossary. It clearly states that only stuff based on physical form can be a natural ability. Natural Abilities are stuff like breathing... stuff your form directly allows you to do. Anything that requires training is Ex, and yes, classes require training. And note that NA abilities are never Special Abilities (See Rules of the Game, SRD, Monster Manual, DMG, Fiend Folio, and a host of others) so unless you think Sneak Attack isn't "A unique or unusual ability a creature can use to harm or hinder other creatures" it can't be Natural for that reason either. Considering the vast majority of humans can't sneak attack, I for one would think the fact that one can is pretty unusual.

And the FAQ clearly states that Cunning Strike can have more than 1 Inspiration Point thrown into it for more sneak attack. It's listed as an official rules source where you download it. If you don't believe it's an official rules source (Curmudgeon maintains that only the questions are an official rules source, and the answers aren't... take that as you will), then fine, but if you accept that it is, you can absolutely do it.

Without using Factotums, you can use Hunter's Eye and a high caster level (Persistent Consumptive Field tricks, perhaps?) to have insane sneak attack. An Archivist 20 with a general +6 to caster level (Orange Ioun Stone, Bead of Karma, some feat perhaps?) can use Consumptive Field Loops to get a caster level of 51, which is enough for 17d6 sneak attack and can be persisted (plus it gives an incredible strength bonus). Change that build to Binder 1/Archivist 3/Divine Anima Mage 10/Tainted Sorcerer 1/Tenebrous Apostate 5 and you can bind Malphas and Andromalius too. You'd lose a caster level, but you'd have endless metamagic and I'm sure something could be figured out.

Anyway, that should end up with around 28d6 Sneak Attack/Sudden Strike at level 20, in addition to being a full caster... and you should have no trouble persisting Divine Power as well. Of course, at that point the sneak attack doesn't even matter, since you've also got a caster level of 51 and your strength score will be at at least +52 over whatever it started at. Feel free to Shapechange into something with tons of attacks while you're at it.

JaronK

[dextercorvia]

Both FAQ and Rules of the Game say it's Ex... in fact all non magical class abilities other than ones based on physical form (such as claw attacks from Wildshape) are Ex abilities. The rules descriptions also state that natural abilities are only those abilities which are innate to the physical form... which class based abilities obviously aren't. So no, one really can't argue that any such ability is a Natural Ability with any actual backing in the rules.

More to the point:



See also the PHBs definition of Natural Abilities, including the one in the glossary. It clearly states that only stuff based on physical form can be a natural ability. Natural Abilities are stuff like breathing... stuff your form directly allows you to do. Anything that requires training is Ex, and yes, classes require training. And note that NA abilities are never Special Abilities (See Rules of the Game, SRD, Monster Manual, DMG, Fiend Folio, and a host of others) so unless you think Sneak Attack isn't "A unique or unusual ability a creature can use to harm or hinder other creatures" it can't be Natural for that reason either. Considering the vast majority of humans can't sneak attack, I for one would think the fact that one can is pretty unusual.

And the FAQ clearly states that Cunning Strike can have more than 1 Inspiration Point thrown into it for more sneak attack. It's listed as an official rules source where you download it. If you don't believe it's an official rules source (Curmudgeon maintains that only the questions are an official rules source, and the answers aren't... take that as you will), then fine, but if you accept that it is, you can absolutely do it.

Without using Factotums, you can use Hunter's Eye and a high caster level (Persistent Consumptive Field tricks, perhaps?) to have insane sneak attack. An Archivist 20 with a general +6 to caster level (Orange Ioun Stone, Bead of Karma, some feat perhaps?) can use Consumptive Field Loops to get a caster level of 51, which is enough for 17d6 sneak attack and can be persisted (plus it gives an incredible strength bonus). Change that build to Binder 1/Archivist 3/Divine Anima Mage 10/Tainted Sorcerer 1/Tenebrous Apostate 5 and you can bind Malphas and Andromalius too. You'd lose a caster level, but you'd have endless metamagic and I'm sure something could be figured out.

Anyway, that should end up with around 28d6 Sneak Attack/Sudden Strike at level 20, in addition to being a full caster... and you should have no trouble persisting Divine Power as well. Of course, at that point the sneak attack doesn't even matter, since you've also got a caster level of 51 and your strength score will be at at least +52 over whatever it started at. Feel free to Shapechange into something with tons of attacks while you're at it.

JaronK

I'm thinking at that point, it would be worth it to be an Aeshkrau Illumian.

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

I can get you 9d6 SA from 3 levels. Level 1 Expert for 2d6 SA, level 8 Warrior add 3d6 SA and at level 15 Warrior for 4d6 more SA. These are the generic classes from Unearthed Arcana Pg. 76.

[Cog]

Bringing in the Generics is like bringing in Gestalt. It's a different ruleset.