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NeoSeraphi
2011-07-11, 08:03 PM
So, how often has this happened to you? You're setting up a party, and everyone is happily making their normal, fun characters. You've got a dragonwrought kobold sorcerer, a gray elf wizard/incantatrix, and a half-minotaur goliath barbarian, when all of a sudden the power-gamer shows up and asks, "So can I be a half-elf paladin?"

You probably all groaned just from reading that sentence. Yes, we all know the trials of DMing a game of Mary Sue half-elves, but what can you do about it? Power-gamers don't want to see fluff or roleplaying opportunities, they only care about the numbers. And sure, +4 Str with no LA for an orc is good, but how can that stand up to the dreaded +2 Diplomacy and Gather Information bonus of a half-elf?

And you can't just give that bonus to all the other races, because that would just make everything bland and similar. So how do you make the other races more appealing (and therefore, ensure that only one or two players per game will want to be a half-elf), without removing the half-elf's place at the table?

Gentlemen, I present to you, my solution!

The following bonuses replace the bonuses listed in the SRD, they are not in addition to them.

Human:
Medium: As Medium creatures, humans have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Human base land speed is 30 feet.
Humans receive 1 extra skill point per level (4 extra at 1st level)
Standard vision
+1 racial bonus on Concentration, Jump, and Tumble checks.
+2 racial bonus on any one Craft and any one Profession checks.
Human Blood: For all effects related to race, a human is considered a human.
Automatic Languages: Common. Bonus Languages: Any (other than secret languages, such as Druidic).
Favored Class: Any

Dwarf:
Medium: As Medium creatures, dwarves have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Dwarf base land speed is 30 feet.
Dwarves receive a +2 racial bonus on saving throws against poison, spells, and spell-like abilities.
Darkvision 60
+1 racial bonus on Craft (gemcutting), Craft (Armormaking), and Craft (Weaponsmithing)
+2 racial bonus on Appraise and Search checks involving stone.
Dwarven Blood: For all effects relating to race, a dwarf is considered a dwarf.
Automatic Languages: Common and Dwarven. Bonus Languages: Any (other than secret languages, such as Druidic).
Favored Class: Any.


Halfling:
Small: As Small creatures, halflings receive a +1 Size bonus to AC and attack rolls, as well as a +4 bonus to all Hide checks, but they must use smaller weapons, have a lower carrying capacity, and must put up with being grappled and tripped more often than Medium characters.
Halfling base land speed is 20 feet.
Halflings receive a +1 luck bonus on all saving throws.
Low-Light Vision: A halfling can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. She retains the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions.
+1 racial bonus on Disable Device, Open Lock, and Disguise checks.
+2 racial bonus on Climb and Move Silently checks.
Halfling Blood: For all effects related to race, a halfling is considered a halfling.
Automatic Languages: Common and Halfling. Bonus Languages: Any (other than secret languages, such as Druidic).
Favored Class: Any.

Elf:
Medium: As Medium creatures, elves have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Elf base land speed is 30 feet.
Immunity to sleep spells and similar magical effects, and a +2 racial bonus on saving throws against enchantment spells or effects.
Low-Light Vision: An elf can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. She retains the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions.
+1 racial bonus on Decipher Script, Knowledge (Arcana), and Spellcraft checks.
+2 racial bonus on Search and Spot checks.
Elven Blood: For all effects related to race, an elf is considered an elf.
Automatic Languages: Common and Elven. Bonus Languages: Any (other than secret languages, such as Druidic).
Favored Class: Any

Half-Orc:
Medium: As Medium creatures, half-orcs have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Half-orc base land speed is 30 feet.
Half-orcs receive a +2 racial bonus on Constitution checks made to prevent fatigue when performing long activity.
Darkvision 60'
+1 racial bonus on Ride, Handle Animal, and Knowledge (Nature) checks.
+2 racial bonus on Survival and Intimidate checks.
Orc Blood: For all effects related to race, a half-orc is considered an orc.
Automatic Languages: Common and Orc. Bonus Languages: Any (other than secret languages, such as Druidic).
Favored Class: Any.


Gnome:
Small: As Small creatures, gnomes receive a +1 Size bonus to AC and attack rolls, as well as a +4 bonus to all Hide checks, but they must use smaller weapons, have a lower carrying capacity, and must put up with being grappled and tripped more often than Medium characters..
Gnome base land speed is 20 feet.
Gnomes receive a +2 bonus on saving throws against illusions.
Low-Light Vision: A gnome can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. She retains the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions.
+1 racial bonus on Craft (Alchemy), Sense Motive, and Use Magic Device checks.
+2 racial bonus on Bluff and Forgery checks.
Gnome Blood: For all effects related to race, a gnome is considered a gnome.
Automatic Languages: Common and Gnome. Bonus Languages: Any (other than secret languages, such as Druidic).
Favored Class: Any.



Alright, there! Now every race is flavorful, and more importantly, just as powerful as the half-elf!

Dryad
2011-07-11, 08:15 PM
My solution to Diplomacy exploits is rather simple:
Roleplay the diplomacy encounter. A very high check result might give you a slight edge, but if you don't have a good story to tell, no die-roll in the world is gonna save you. :smallbiggrin:

But yeah; I do understand your sentiment: Half-elves are little played, and usually rather useless. There are a few starter-level builds in which they shine (though I didn't think paladin was one of them), but on the whole: Don't play half elf (or, honestly, half orc).

I really like the fact that you removed ability crunching from the races! A much-needed change, if you ask me! Half-Wizard? Why not? If that's the kind of character a player wants to try, why should the stats of a race make it nigh impossible?
So I'm all in favour!

NeoSeraphi
2011-07-11, 08:18 PM
My solution to Diplomacy exploits is rather simple:
Roleplay the diplomacy encounter. A very high check result might give you a slight edge, but if you don't have a good story to tell, no die-roll in the world is gonna save you. :smallbiggrin:

But yeah; I do understand your sentiment: Half-elves are little played, and usually rather useless. There are a few starter-level builds in which they shine (though I didn't think paladin was one of them), but on the whole: Don't play half elf (or, honestly, half orc).

I really like the fact that you removed ability crunching from the races! A much-needed change, if you ask me! Half-Wizard? Why not? If that's the kind of character a player wants to try, why should the stats of a race make it nigh impossible?
So I'm all in favour!


At first, your sarcasm about half-elves being useless made me think that you were gonna try and flame this thread, but I'm glad to see you got serious and supported me in the end!

Yitzi
2011-07-11, 08:22 PM
My solution to Diplomacy exploits is rather simple:
Roleplay the diplomacy encounter. A very high check result might give you a slight edge, but if you don't have a good story to tell, no die-roll in the world is gonna save you. :smallbiggrin:

The other key is circumstance penalties. Smooth talking will probably help you get a low-level henchman (who doesn't have a lot invested in his "side") on your side, but the key players tend to have a lot of reasons to be right where they are.

Ultimately, diplomacy should be an incredibly powerful force when used correctly; a look at history shows that such is quite realistic. But it should be impossible to use it effectively without in-character thinking (the very thing that munchkins tend to stereotypically be weak at.)

As for the OP...looks like a good way of cutting down on the optimization potential of race choice, which as far as I can tell is what you're aiming for.

Xefas
2011-07-11, 08:24 PM
It's no "Real Stats for the Katana", but pretty good. 7/10, kinda obvious.

Hiro Protagonest
2011-07-11, 08:27 PM
I can't tell if this is supposed to be a joke or not. However, I'm heavily leaning toward the "joke" side.

NeoSeraphi
2011-07-11, 08:29 PM
I can't tell if this is supposed to be a joke or not. However, I'm heavily leaning toward the "joke" side.

(TIAJ) means "This is a Joke". I saw it on another thread title a while back and assumed it was as well-known as PEACH. I guess not.

Dryad
2011-07-11, 08:40 PM
The problem is, though... That you're kinda right. It's not that the Half-Elf is really all that bad... It's just that everything else is better.
And that races tend to tunnel-vision in terms of classes, due to their stats. Why would anyone go for an Elven Fighter if you can make a Human one? Why would anyone, ever, try a half-orc sorcerer or wizard?

This suggestion removes a lot of tunnel-vision, clearing the way for much more personalized characters... So even if it's a joke, it's a good suggestion.

Cipher Stars
2011-07-11, 10:30 PM
Why would anyone, ever, try a half-orc sorcerer or wizard?.

Um... *raises hand*

I like the image of a half-orc sorcerer.... shaved head, covered in tattoos... "TUG BURN PUNY HALF-MAN" *Halfling*
edit, thats not at all to say they're stupid, just a stereotypical quote, recognizable by most to be half-orc/orc.

Lappy9000
2011-07-11, 10:47 PM
It's no "Real Stats for the Katana", but pretty good. 7/10, kinda obvious.Fooled me :smallbiggrin:

I was extremely confused for a good bit there.

Lonely Tylenol
2011-07-12, 05:12 AM
(TIAJ) means "This is a Joke". I saw it on another thread title a while back and assumed it was as well-known as PEACH. I guess not.

I...

Don't know what PEACH is.

:smallfrown:

Tebryn
2011-07-12, 05:14 AM
P.E.A.C.H means Please Evaluate And Critique Honestly. This though...sarcasm is hard to read over text...and honestly the joke isn't merely lost because of that. The whole thing feels forced.

Lonely Tylenol
2011-07-12, 07:02 AM
P.E.A.C.H means Please Evaluate And Critique Honestly. This though...sarcasm is hard to read over text...and honestly the joke isn't merely lost because of that. The whole thing feels forced.

Now I know...

And knowing is half the battle! (http://content6.clipmarks.com/clog_clip_cache/amplify.com/E2DCAD3A-1FAE-4ED6-8267-3611CB4D10F5/7986A7BC-5C6B-4B73-87BF-6688820611CE)

snowboule
2011-07-12, 07:43 AM
Meh these races feels like 4th ed. they are all the same with a little difference each, wich in the end means nearly nothing.

Yitzi
2011-07-12, 12:16 PM
The problem is, though... That you're kinda right. It's not that the Half-Elf is really all that bad... It's just that everything else is better.

Although the other approach to that is to make half-elf better.


And that races tend to tunnel-vision in terms of classes, due to their stats. Why would anyone go for an Elven Fighter if you can make a Human one? Why would anyone, ever, try a half-orc sorcerer or wizard?

This suggestion removes a lot of tunnel-vision, clearing the way for much more personalized characters... So even if it's a joke, it's a good suggestion.


Um... *raises hand*

I like the image of a half-orc sorcerer.... shaved head, covered in tattoos... "TUG BURN PUNY HALF-MAN" *Halfling*
edit, thats not at all to say they're stupid, just a stereotypical quote, recognizable by most to be half-orc/orc.

Seems to me the way to allow for things like a half-orc sorcerer, elven fighter (barring a DEX-heavy build), etc. isn't to change the races, but to pre-roll "level 0" characters including race and ability scores (not just an array, but also which one goes to which score). Because when you've got a half-orc that has 16 CHA and 10 STR after racial modifiers (unlikely, but possible) sorcerer looks like a pretty good choice.

Of course, players normally won't want that, so best to just make it one of several options for character building (of course, because it's so restrictive it'll be better...say, roll one extra d6 to take the best 3 of; generating a few "level 0" characters that the player can choose one of also makes sense.)

Merk
2011-07-12, 05:05 PM
In all seriousness, I always thought racial language restrictions were pretty obtuse. Why can't my Half-Orc Swashbuckler start knowing Aquan?

Yitzi
2011-07-12, 06:56 PM
In all seriousness, I always thought racial language restrictions were pretty obtuse. Why can't my Half-Orc Swashbuckler start knowing Aquan?

He can. He just has to spend 2 skill points (assuming Speak Language is cross-class) on it, rather than having "picked it up" with a high INT score.

Merk
2011-07-12, 07:43 PM
He can. He just has to spend 2 skill points (assuming Speak Language is cross-class) on it, rather than having "picked it up" with a high INT score.

It's true. That doesn't stop me from disliking the restrictions, though.

DiBastet
2011-07-12, 08:38 PM
Play in a setting that gives bonus languages by region.

Rainbownaga
2011-07-12, 11:21 PM
And I thought this was about the brokenness of diplomancy :S

Dryad
2011-07-13, 07:28 AM
Although the other approach to that is to make half-elf better.
I disagree. Because the inherent quality of the Half Elf is not below the other races, as such. It's just that ability modifiers to other races make them better choices for classes.
As such, the quality of races for number-crunching is relative to the class they're taking, rather than relative to the other races. Making the half-elf better than they currently are will either result into nothing (by not making them better relative to classes) or will result in the half-elf ruling the system (by adding ability score changes which will result on class-relative favour, increasing the potency of a race that has no inherent quality problems to begin with).
The half-orc is a different matter, but that is because the half-orc is tunnel-visioned into the barbarian class, since she takes a penalty to two mental stats, worst of the two being intelligence. This makes the race much less interesting for rogues, rangers and fighters, who all want at least an average intelligence score, be it for skill points or feat requirements.
The lack of a wisdom penalty, when paired with the bonus to strength, may be attractive to clericzilla and druidzilla builds, but half-orc clerics will still lose a useful class-feature due to charisma not being a whorthwhile stat to invest in. (I think we can agree that Wild Empathy is pretty much useless, overall.)
Half-orc druids lose the benefit of their racial bonus to their strength score as soon as they get Wild Shape, so Half-orc might only be a viable druid option for the PhBII druid shapeshifter alternative option, which is not exactly core material. At least; not to my mind.

Seems to me the way to allow for things like a half-orc sorcerer, elven fighter (barring a DEX-heavy build), etc. isn't to change the races, but to pre-roll "level 0" characters including race and ability scores (not just an array, but also which one goes to which score). Because when you've got a half-orc that has 16 CHA and 10 STR after racial modifiers (unlikely, but possible) sorcerer looks like a pretty good choice.
Which basically means that RNG gets you borked. You get a race, stats and class from unpredictable numbers, and the benefits of your race get nullified by these random numbers. You don't get to create a character; you get to cross your fingers and hope for the best.
A Half-orc 'sorcerer' created this way will have stat of 18 'thrown away' into Charisma, and her dump-stat roll (8) positioned in the race's favoured stat, making it a score of ten. This effectively loses the character both her high roll ánd her racial benefit, in one go. She gets the short end of the stick twice, in this scenario, and the scenario is determined not by choice but by forced randomness.
Don't know about you, but I really don't want my character to be determined by chance.

As you mentioned, most people don't want to play like this. So I don't think it would be a valid method to 'make up for racial tunnelvision.'

drack
2011-07-13, 07:41 AM
Why would anyone, ever, try a half-orc sorcerer or wizard?

... I have a full orc sorcerer in a game that I'm playing at the moment :smallconfused: I liked how it fluffed out, and getting Hexer with it helped in the same regard, I mean how many people can say that their mage is beastly and mean it? :smalltongue:

As for the diplomacy thing I'm gonna need to agree that it depends on fluff, but at the same time there are other ways to go about it. I'm currently DMing a game with a half fiend half celestial (yes one side or the other must have had a great laugh raping the other :smallannoyed: you know how well such things go over when you're a celestial and it gets out that you are carrying a fiend's child or vice versa.) Anywho they ended up with +39-43 to social skills (and being able to appear as either celestial or fiend helps that more). Now you could make everyone else have huge sense motive and diplomacy ad go right back at them with 'you are suddenly frenetic and would die to protect this person', or lean more on fluff, or use divination spells prior to combat. Commonly wary enemies help as well. and if you need to justify their +40 bluff failing on a natural 20 when they're holding a bloody dagger over the Mayer and they say 'hi, um... not me' :smallbiggrin: you can alwayssay -50 situation bonus or the such :smalltongue: (I mean really, that looks pretty bad...)