Swordsage TWF or THW?

[Rukia]

Ok it seems my DM is finally going to allow me to try out swordsage but I'm trying to figure out the best path forward. Before I get straight into my questions I'll provide a little background of the group and my character stats since most people replying to these sorts of questions usually ask for it.

Background

Started my guy as a Rogue in the beginning since we only had PHB to start with and I didn't know about the swordsage. When I brought up swordsage my DM didn't relish the idea of bringing one into the game due to the other players being really new to the rules and was worried about them getting too confused, not to mention the DM himself was pretty new and didn't want the headache. I eventually took 2nd level Factotum as it fit my concept a lot better. Eventually I had gained enough experience to hit level 3 but before I could rest and level up my character died.

To make a long story short, our Gnome wizard decided it was a good idea to dance around on some sarcophagi in a tome. Unfortunately it woke up a couple of Wights who ended up killing my guy and the party cleric. The rest escaped with their lives but left our bodies in the tome to rot. Our group took a few weeks break due to us all being busy and I ended up bringing in a Dragonfire Adept when we started playing again. I'm really enjoying him for the most part and he's turning out to be a powerhouse, but it looks like I may have the option to bring my character back. The cleric who died rolled up a barbarian who was the in game brother to the cleric and has been wanting to recover his brother's corpse.

So last session we finally made it back to the tome to recover the bodies. We killed the vampire BBEG and then recovered the dead bodies. They had been put into the sarcophagi while we were gone, and thankfully we waited to open them till after we finished off the Vampire as they had begun turning into Wight's themselves and we'd have had to fight them. So now we have our old character's corpses and resurrection is an option. Time has passed and after the Dragonfire adept's breath mechanics (entangling exhalation) have been used the DM is open to allowing a tome of battle character. Not to mention my character has been trouncing on some encounters as is. He almost single handedly killed a pair of Ogre's that attacked us(my guy is level 2 btw) by entangling one for four rounds which he never escape from, and doing damage to both of them with his line attack so my DM is more open to me playing a character where I actually have to roll to be able to do this sort of stuff :smalltongue:.

Anyway since he's being brought back from the dead and had been tainted by the vampire we figured it wouldn't be that hard to justify changing his class to a swordsage(since he is kind of the same style fighter as a rogue, just a lot more supernaturally enhanced) when he gets resurrected which leads me to my questions...

Character info

So my guy is a Human and has these rolls to work with. He was also given combat reflexes as a free bonus feat by the DM to go along with my backstory.

Str 14
Dex 17
Con 15
Int 15
Wis 9
Cha 7

Point buy wasn't an option, we did 4d6b3 and no rerolls on 1's or anything else. For a Rogue this was the best spread I came up with though it's a bit unoptimized for a swordsage. However he is open to the kung-fu genius feat to allow my swordsage to use Int for all of his class features instead of Wis, so along with his good will save and diamond mind counters this should work out fine.

So based on the above information my questions boil down to this. What would be a better choice for my character in the area of damage output(this is what our groups needs)? Using two weapon fighting with a combination of assassin's stance, shadow blade and tiger claw maneuvers; or switching strength to 17, dex to 15 and focusing on a 2h weapon like a greatsword and using power attack and single strike maneuvers to do damage? Or a third option.. using a 2h weapon along with armor spikes to still use two weapon manuevers...

My thinking is this. Two weapon fighting is a bigger investment, but I'll get more out of the dex since I'll have shadow blade for damage to make up for the lower strength, it will add to my armor class and dex based skills since I'd be the primary scout and I'll get more mileage out of my combat reflexes. At level 4 I'll raise my dex to 18 and will continue boosting it with any items I can get my hands on which will increase my AC and Damage capability.

2h weapon and focusing on strength will cost less feats to pull off, and with armor spikes I could still utilize tiger claw and flashing sun to get multiple attacks when using assassin's stance.

Where it gets tricky is the two weapon fighting. Since I'll be using mostly maneuvers for damage output I'm starting to think the two weapon fighting feat isn't really worth taking anyways as I can rely on my maneuvers to give me the extra attacks (dancing mongoose, flashing sun, wolf fang strike, etc.). I'm not a math wizard, but I'm thinking that if I just carry two shadow hand weapons and utilize my maneuvers I can rely on shadow blade, my meager strength bonus and assassin's stance to put my damage on the same level as if I had went with a 2h weapon and armor spikes. As I said the bonus to dex will give me more ac, higher initiative and other bonuses that strength won't give me so even if damage is slightly less it may be worth it.

I figure that possibly I could take bloodclaw master for two levels and pick up two weapon fighting at level 9 if I really wanted. If I use daggers I'd get the full str damage with my off-hand weapon, negate the -2/-2 penalty and then my damage potential may eventually overtake the 2h weapon option due to using assassin's stance and shadow blade.

Optimization wise I figure I could take one level of Warblade at 1 to pick up wolf fang strike, sudden leap and moment of perfect mind with hunter's sense. Then take swordsage for 5 levels and pick up assassin's stance at level 6 along with craven for really boosting my damage capability. The warblade's recovery mechanic would allow me to spam those 3 maneuvers and they'd be useful for quite awhile, not to mention the boost to Fortitude and the 12hp to start out with. Then I can use my swordsage maneuvers to fill in all of the rest without having to constantly ready those 3 from the warblade.

So with all that said, is this a valid method or am I missing something? My group isn't optimized at all and we need some more DPS. We have no arcane caster and our melee guys aren't dealing out consistent damage. My plan is to make an efficient striker that has some battlefield mobility and tactical options to make up for that. I'm thinking that at low levels I could use combos like burning blade + wolf fang strike to boost damage output and eventually the higher level diamond mind strikes will still work well even without power attack.

[Dusk Eclipse]

If you focus on damage boosts (Desert wind has a few key, in the [type of flame] blade line of maneuvers) TWF it is not bad.

I actually like the option of using the standard action strikes, since sometimes you won't be able to reach enemies and use your full attack, you can still be somewhat effective.

Also take Adaptive style, no if or buts, just take it.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

TWF loves two things:

* Full attacks
* Damage stacking per hit

Swordsages can do both. Thus, Swordsage is one of the few classes who can make TWF actually viable. Tack on xing mongoose, pouncing strike, and damage-bonus-stack to your heart's content.

[Bob]

I vote twf. The swordsage's shadow hand, tiger claw, and diamond mind techniques should be hurtful enough without having to milk power attack. read up on the maneuvers in those schools, match up the good combos, and you should be making things fall down in short order.

And your recovery ability sucks, but its ok because you can take that feat that other guy was talking about.

[Rukia]

I failed to mention it but adaptive style is no doubt a first level feat choice.

As far as the TWF goes, I know it's a viable option with a swordsage but I guess I was more looking for "is it worth the investment" when compared to a swordsage that just goes Greatsword/Diamond Mind route. Also it seems even if you go TWF you can pass on the actual TWF feat for later down the road since it seems that you'll get more damage out of maneuvers early on than you would just full attacking with two weapons. Wolf fang strike and flashing step doesn't require you actually having the TWF feat, just gives you extra attacks(and flashing step can be done with a 2h weapon).

[Candleke]

I am relatively inexperienced compared to others on the board but whenever i have played a swordsage i have never gone wrong with diamond mind,
desert wind or shadowhand schools, but there is a really good swordsage guide on the forums, it is still under construction but it should have some helpful hints.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=181705&highlight=swordsage+guide

sorry if that doesn't show up as a link, I think the internet is magic...... and it scares the hell outta me.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I failed to mention it but adaptive style is no doubt a first level feat choice.

As far as the TWF goes, I know it's a viable option with a swordsage but I guess I was more looking for "is it worth the investment" when compared to a swordsage that just goes Greatsword/Diamond Mind route. Also it seems even if you go TWF you can pass on the actual TWF feat for later down the road since it seems that you'll get more damage out of maneuvers early on than you would just full attacking with two weapons. Wolf fang strike and flashing step doesn't require you actually having the TWF feat, just gives you extra attacks(and flashing step can be done with a 2h weapon).

The xing Mongoose boost line explicitly boosts TWFing over THFing. If you dip Rogue3, you'll get 2d6 SA (4d6 once you get assassin's stance) to add onto every attack and make it more worthwhile.

[Cog]

The xing Mongoose boost line explicitly boosts TWFing over THFing.
This is true, but it's worth noting that the Mongoose line triggers off of weapons wielded, not weapons used. A greatsword-and-armor-spikes wielder could use only his normal iteratives, skip the TWF penalties, and still claim all the bonus attacks.

[Dusk Eclipse]

The xing Mongoose boost line explicitly boosts TWFing over THFing. If you dip Rogue3, you'll get 2d6 SA (4d6 once you get assassin's stance) to add onto every attack and make it more worthwhile.

Add craven for even more damage (you have moment of the perfect mind to cover those pesky fear effects) and since you will have natural sneak attack it is always on.


This is true, but it's worth noting that the Mongoose line triggers off of weapons wielded, not weapons used. A greatsword-and-armor-spikes wielder could use only his normal iteratives, skip the TWF penalties, and still claim all the bonus attacks.

If you are getting bonus damage from say shadow blade, sneak attacks, etc TWF is more useful if you use the xing mongoose.

[Morph Bark]

This is true, but it's worth noting that the Mongoose line triggers off of weapons wielded, not weapons used. A greatsword-and-armor-spikes wielder could use only his normal iteratives, skip the TWF penalties, and still claim all the bonus attacks.

Then it becomes a question if gauntlets count as weapons while that hand holds a weapon... :smallamused:

[Cog]

Then it becomes a question if gauntlets count as weapons while that hand holds a weapon... :smallamused:
Good thing I specified armor spikes instead, then. :smallcool:

Unless you meant to get a third weapon - but if that's the case, both Mongooses are limited at two weapons.

[Fouredged Sword]

The debate boils down to Blood in the water or something else. Blood in the water is a great stance open from level one forward. Grab a pair of keen high crit light weapons and go to town. Roll as many dice as posible looking for crits and start picking up stacking +1's to attack and damage. TWF for the win.

On the other hand, go dimond mind. Pick up power attack and use dimond mind and tiger (the rabid strike line) strikes to punch though AC. Reap the massive damage.

With your scores you may want to consider warblade rather than swordsage. Though nither will go too wronge. Consider a monk dip and kungfu genious for Int to ac rather than wis, or ask your DM to let that feat apply to swordsage.

[Morph Bark]

Unless you meant to get a third weapon - but if that's the case, both Mongooses are limited at two weapons.

I did, but good to hear anyway the creators of ToB thought it through. :smalltongue:

[Dusk Eclipse]

The debate boils down to Blood in the water or something else. Blood in the water is a great stance open from level one forward. Grab a pair of keen high crit light weapons and go to town. Roll as many dice as posible looking for crits and start picking up stacking +1's to attack and damage. TWF for the win.

On the other hand, go dimond mind. Pick up power attack and use dimond mind and tiger (the rabid strike line) strikes to punch though AC. Reap the massive damage.

With your scores you may want to consider warblade rather than swordsage. Though nither will go too wronge. Consider a monk dip and kungfu genious for Int to ac rather than wis, or ask your DM to let that feat apply to swordsage.

Rukia already said her DM will let her use Kung-fu genius for Swordsage :smalltongue: and the beauty of the swordsage is that they have so many maneuvers known, they can afford to diversify their selections.

Having a few single attack/high damage strikes for when full attacking is not an option is good and swordsages can do it without problems.

Imagine a swordsage using Ruby Nightmare blade, damage would be ([W]+Str+Dex+Int (Insghtful Strike class feature using Kung fu genius)+character level +craven) * 2 + SA

[Ernir]

Depends entirely on how many feats you haven't allocated yet, IMO.

TWF can deliver very impressive results on a Swordsage, as has been mentioned (repeatedly). It still burns a hole in your feats.

THF works just fine too. And the feat cost is low.


And remember - if you don't know what to do with your feats, you aren't trying hard enough.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Another option is to buy a pair of gloves of the balanced hand (MIC), for 8k gp you get TWF or ITWF if you already have TWF.

[Fouredged Sword]

Glove slot is needed for dex boosting though. +6 to a stat is normaly worth a feat.

[Dusk Eclipse]

With the rules on the MIC you can add those kind of bonus to the gloves.

[Darrin]

Glove slot is needed for dex boosting though. +6 to a stat is normaly worth a feat.

Easy enough to have both. You can add a +6 Dex bonus to Gloves of the Balanced Hand per the "Adding Common Item Effects to Existing Items" rules in the MIC, p. 233, for the same price as gloves +6.

[Killer Angel]

Feats cost leaves me with some doubt, but I would go for TWF. I like when there is a good damage dealer that doesn't rely on the standard THW + PA routine...

[Fouredged Sword]

Always remember to take a easy hit and a hard hit single strike. Mountain hammer and dimond mind strikes come to mind, though white tiger can provide both as a single strike if you want to play agressively.

[Dusk Eclipse]

White tiger? is that a homebrew discipline? :smalltongue::smalltongue: Or did you meant Tiger claw or White Raven (which Swordsages don't get access to)

[Fouredged Sword]

Bah, AFB and typeing fast. Tiger claw. Though white raven has some not bad damage boosts to charge and attack with. Not for a swordsage though.

[Morph Bark]

White Tiger and Raven Claw? That sounds like a nice Swordsage/Warblade (Swordblade? Warsage?) and Wizard duo. :smallwink:

[Rukia]

Thanks for all the replies guys, you've pretty much confirmed my thoughts. TWF while feat intensive, really has some strong capabilities it just comes down to the feat cost. I'm going to try and work with the DM on a few things to see if I can reduce them somewhat. I personally hate the weapon finesse feat and think it so rediculous that WoTC didn't simply let someone choose to use their dex mod instead of strength to wield light weapons. It really puts a dex fighter at a disadvantage to a regular one. I get that dex has different bonuses so it could be thought unbalanced, but since most players will have to rely on strength on extra dice for damage I don't think it's anywhere near unbalancing.

I'm going to see if the DM will allow shadow blade to count as weapon finesse for the same rules it uses for itself. Meaning it would only give me weapon finesse for shadow hand weapons while in a shadow hand stance. It's limiting, but taking that feat already pretty much seals the deal on what stances I'll be using. Child of Shadow and Assassin's stance will be my bread and butter. I'm also going to try and find a way to squeeze in switching wis to int for the swordsage without having to take a feat, or at a minimum let me swap out my combat reflexes that was given for free. If not I may have to take a level of fighter or two to get the bonus feats. It will slow down my maneuver progression but I think the benefits of getting the right feats will far outweigh the delay in maneuvers.

So I'm thinking build wise(if I can get DM to agree to above):

1) Warblade (Feats: Adaptive Style, TWF)+ my free combat reflexes
2) Swordsage
3) Swordsage (Shadow Blade)
4) Swordsage
5) Swordsage
6) Swordsage (Craven: just in time for assassin's stance)

I realize I could delay warblade till level 5 and start with level 2 manuevers, but the ones I want to spam are level 1 anyways so no need. With wolf fang strike, sudden leap and moment of perfect mind as his 3 that would give me my basic TWF along with an at will will save and some extra movement. If DM won't allow my requests I may try to swap the combat reflexes for kung fu - genius and then pick up weapon finesse via a fighter or swashbuckler dip that would delay my 5th swordsage level until level 7. I was going to skip TWF and just try for the gloves, but if I'm going to go for this build then Bloodclaw master at level 7-8 seem a logical choice to get rid of the TWF penalty and I'll switch up to using daggers as weapons. 1d4 vs 1d6 isn't much difference and the bonus damage adds up all the same. The added benefit is with all of my dex and TWF going on, I could easily throw daggers at range if the situation calls for it and get all the added damage on a surprise round or such.

[Fouredged Sword]

Consider another level of warblade, as it doesn't hurt your swordsage initiator level and grants better bab and HD.

[Darrin]

If DM won't allow my requests I may try to swap the combat reflexes for kung fu - genius and then pick up weapon finesse via a fighter or swashbuckler dip that would delay my 5th swordsage level until level 7.


You can get the equivalent of Weapon Finesse by buying some light feycraft weapons (+1500 GP each, DMGII p. 275). Slight damage nerf (usually -1.0 per attack), but hitting more often with Shadow Blade more than makes up for it.

If you want to go crit-fishing, you can also add Pitspawned for +1000 GP, +2 bonus to confirm crits.

[Fouredged Sword]

Crafted by fiendish fae? Awsome

[Rukia]

Just thought I'd bump this back up for an update. Talked with my DM and since he hates my dragonfire adept(he hasn't gotten over the fact that my level 2 character killed 2 ogres almost single handedly) he is going to raise my guy back up at our next game tomorrow. However since we are too low level to have diamonds he is going another route. He will use a neutral evil god to raise my character as some sort of semi-undead half-wight human. He says he's going to give me some sort of neutral adjustment template with some bonuses and negatives to even it out, and roleplay wise I will be in debt to whatever god he chooses to reanimate me with.

So I'm going warblade 1, swordsage 2 and focusing on TWF. Had I built this guy at a higher level I'd take warblade later, but since we're low level I'll get more benefit out of warblade at level 1. Will be taking wolf fang strike, moment of perfect mind and probably steel wind(though steely strike seems good for low levels) for my bread and butter easily refreshable maneuvers to keep up my damage output. I probably can't afford TWF feat yet so these maneuvers will help me out until then. Steely strike may not be the best choice, but I want one ironheart maneuver so that I can dip warblade at level 8 to pick up ironheart aura. I could have taken punishing stance and just never used it to qualify, but honestly I think I'll get far more use out of hunter's scent in combination with the party ranger.

For swordsage I'll be focusing mostly on desert wind and shadow hand along with cherry picking a few from the others. My DM wants me to play up the "magical rogue" fluff since my guy was a Rogue before this started and those two schools fit the bill. Will also take some of the higher level Diamond Mind strikes when I get there in order to boost my damage output when the time comes.

In the end TWF just made more sense fluff wise and coming back as a two handed weapon wielder wouldn't have made sense, and with shadow blade and high dexterity I can make it up anyways. Plus things like burning blade and such seem to favor more low damage attacks than fewer high damage ones.

I'm thinking with things like burning blade and steel wind/wolf fang strike I'll be able to do some decent damage at this level. I did have one question though. Could I afford to put off adaptive style till a couple more levels? With most of my damage coming out of warblade and it's good recovery, wouldn't my high number of swordsage maneuvers probably last the encounter anyways? Also would adaptive style refresh both warblade and swordsage maneuvers at the same time? If so then that might tip the scales and be totally worth it even at level 3.

[kardar233]

This is my favourite example of what to do with a TWF Swordsage.

Be a Neraph, or get its charge ability. Activate Assassin's Stance with Craven. Get Pounce from Barb dip or similar, use Raging Mongoose and then Searing Charge. You're getting, if done correctly, 10 attacks with level+2d6+5d6 bonus damage each, on a flat-footed opponent.