Rogue/Master thrower Help [3.5]

[Wonderman]

Help please, as far as every rogue guide I've seen so far very few touch upon the best possible feats for a rogue looking to go into the Assassin/Master thrower PrC. I've been looking a the Master Thrower/Assassin PrCs for a while now and its something that interests me a lot, what should I do as far as feats to attain the best possible outcome. On another note should I even include Assassin? I kind of liked it for flavor but after reading a while it doesn't seem to synergize well... if so what should I replace it with?
My reasoning behind picking something like this kind of build is for the availability to overcome the need to rely on another party member to cast invisibility on myself to overcome sneaky shot trick and replace it with something else.

As far as rulebooks
All SrD content is available though Races are limited to PHB.

Possible Builds
I was thinking of a build something along the lines of:

Rogue6/Assassin3/MT5/Assassin6
Rogue3/Swash3/MT5/Rogue9
Rogue 6/MT5/Assassin9

All commentary on builds is greatly appreciated too... Though I know most of you when you saw Master thrower you probably thought of Flick or some sort of 4-5 Multiclassing PrC build. I kind of want something straightforward because every time I seem to powergame the DM gets pretty mad.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Master Thrower is in Complete Warrior, not in the SRD content. So what sources do you have other than the SRD? Because quite frankly, this has... potential

Master Thrower works best with a maximum amount of sneak attack applied, because with Sneaky Shot, you can always apply it (target is flat denied dex bonus to AC, do not pass go, do not collect $200, just stack sneak attack dice on top and have a nice day).

Personally, I've never liked the Assassin PrC, but if that's what floats your boat, go for it. Otherwise, just straight Rogue/MT/Rogue works just fine.

It also pairs fairly well with Invisible Blade, which seems to have nearly identical feat requirements for some unknown reason, and gives you something to do with your daggers in melee. Just don't look up the errata... trust me, you're better off not knowing.

[Wonderman]

Master Thrower is in Complete Warrior, not in the SRD content. So what sources do you have other than the SRD? Because quite frankly, this has... potential

Almost anything that I can O.K. (such as master thrower) with my DM is available he just likes to limit it to SRD to avoid extreme min/maxing and optimization.


It also pairs fairly well with Invisible Blade, which seems to have nearly identical feat requirements for some unknown reason, and gives you something to do with your daggers in melee. Just don't look up the errata... trust me, you're better off not knowing.
Where is Invisible blade from?

[SleepyShadow]

Try this and see what you think:

Fighter 2/Rogue 3/Assassin 2/Master Thrower 5/Assassin 8

Feats: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot [Fighter], Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Shuriken) [Fighter], Weapon Focus (Shuriken), Two Weapon Fighting, Quick Draw [Master Thrower], Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Rapid Shot, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, Many Shot

[Wonderman]

Try this and see what you think:

Fighter 2/Rogue 3/Assassin 2/Master Thrower 5/Assassin 8

Feats: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot [Fighter], Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Shuriken) [Fighter], Weapon Focus (Shuriken), Two Weapon Fighting, Quick Draw [Master Thrower], Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Rapid Shot, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, Many Shot

That's an awesome build thank you.
What race would you go and what Master Thrower tricks would you take?

[BenInHB]

Rogue2/Swashbuckler3/Assassin1/MT5/Swash9

Start with Rogue for all the nice skill points at first level

Swashbuckler brings full BaB, free Weapon Finesse, and Insightful Strike to add INT to damage

Assassin gives you access to a bunch of great spells without having to make UMD checks, Poison Use (pretty good at lower levels if you craft your own poisons at 1/8th the cost) Death Attack (meh...) and boosts your sneak attack dice to 2d6. This last part is important because it makes you eligible for the Daring Outlaw feat which allows you to count your Swash levels as Rogue levels for Sneak Attack progression. This actually puts you ahead of where a straight rogue would be!!

Next we jump right into Master Thrower for 5 levels to pick up all the PrC's goodies

Finish with Swash and you get full BaB progression and continue to progress your Sneak Attack while picking up a few extra class features. Bonuses when flanking, Acrobatic Charge, Luck re-rolls, some dodge bonus, Acrobatic Skill Mastery and Weakening Critical (which goes nicely with Critical Throw from MT5)

Feats:
Human: Weapon Focus (Dagger)
1st lvl: Point Blank Shot
Swash:(Free) Weapon Finesse
3rd lvl: Precise Shot
6th lvl: Daring Outlaw
MT: Quick Draw
9th lvl: Two Weapon Fighting
MT: Snatch Arrows
12th lvl: Improved Two Weapon Fighting
15th lvl: Rapid Shot
18th lvl: Greater TWF

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Almost anything that I can O.K. (such as master thrower) with my DM is available he just likes to limit it to SRD to avoid extreme min/maxing and optimization.


Where is Invisible blade from?

Invisible Blade is also in Complete Warrior, and focuses on feinting and dual-wielding daggers. They gain Int bonus to AC, and can eventually Take 10 on Bluff checks to feint and Feint as a free action (the errata states that they may only do this once per turn, so pretend the errata doesn't exist, because this is a silly limitation)

As far as race, I would suggest Halfling. Bonus to Dex, you don't care about strength anyways, and Size bonus on to-hit numbers. Damage die reduction doesn't hurt your damage much (a total of a half of a point difference on average from a D4 to a D3) since it doesn't affect your sneak attack dice, which is where your damage is really coming from.

If your GM lets you, a two-level splash, at appropriate levels, would net you the following:

*Wis bonus to AC in light armor
*Island of Blades stance, which lets you flank *MUCH* easier
*Pick up the feat Shadow Blade and Weapon Finesse, and your strength becomes a dump stat, as Shadow Blade lets you use Dex rather than Strength for damage.
*Assassin's Stance gives +2d6 Sneak Attack, assuming you don't need Island of Blades to flank with.
*Some of the Tiger Claw maneuvers may interest you, like Pouncing Strike and Raging Mongoose

[Salanmander]

Highly agree with everyone suggesting two-weapon fighting. With weak spot you will never miss: you'll be attacking flat-footed touch AC. Just pile on attacks all day long and buy a pound of d6s.

It's worth noting that for ranged weapons, sudden strike is as good as sneak attack. I'd look at ninja as an alternative to rogue unless you are really tied to some specific aspects of rogue, or don't like (or don't have access to) ninja.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Highly agree with everyone suggesting two-weapon fighting. With weak spot you will never miss: you'll be attacking flat-footed touch AC. Just pile on attacks all day long and buy a pound of d6s.

It's worth noting that for ranged weapons, sudden strike is as good as sneak attack. I'd look at ninja as an alternative to rogue unless you are really tied to some specific aspects of rogue, or don't like (or don't have access to) ninja.

Which version of Ninja? There's several out there, and most of them stink on ice...

[Salanmander]

Which version of Ninja? There's several out there, and most of them stink on ice...

Complete Adventurer ninja. The main reason that the CA ninja is worse than rogue is that sudden strike is worse than sneak attack by a lot: it doesn't work with flanking. However, if you're using thrown weapons you can't flank, so it's not worse in that instance.

Also, when you're already relying on denying dex AC, ghost step (invisible) becomes pretty damn useful, especially at low levels.

You lose out on some skill points, evasion, uncanny dodge, and armor proficiency at low levels, but that's about it until rogue 10. In exchange you get wis to AC, aforementioned ghost step, a little more bonus armor, poison use, and some miscellaneous acrobatics skills. Rogue probably still wins overall, but it's at least worth considering.

[SleepyShadow]

That's an awesome build thank you.
What race would you go and what Master Thrower tricks would you take?

This build is pretty generic and does not really require a specific race. You could go Human and pick up Iron Will/Force of Personality as a bonus feat (since your Will saves will suck), you could go elf or something else with a Dex bonus, or (if you can swing it) pick up something that can fly.

As for Master Thrower tricks, I recommend Palm Throw, Tumbling Toss, and Weak Spot. You will be throwing lots of shuriken with this build.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

This build is pretty generic and does not really require a specific race. You could go Human and pick up Iron Will/Force of Personality as a bonus feat (since your Will saves will suck), you could go elf or something else with a Dex bonus, or (if you can swing it) pick up something that can fly.

As for Master Thrower tricks, I recommend Palm Throw, Tumbling Toss, and Weak Spot. You will be throwing lots of shuriken with this build.

You want to be as small a race as possible for Weak Shot, which only works on opponents your size or larger. Thus Halfling (strongheart halfling if you want) or Gnome (Whispergnome works too).

I would not recommend either Palm Throw or Tumbling Toss. The former, because it is a volley attack, and so precision-based damage (read: all of it) is only applied to one attack. The latter is completely useless to you, except as something like Shot On The Run, which is an almost pointless feat anyways.

My suggestions are: Sneaky Shot, Trip Shot, and Weak Spot. Here's why:

Sneaky Shot = applying precision-based damage. Since this is 90% of your damage, you want to apply it.

Trip Shot = mostly useless, but more useful than the others. Basically, it's a status effect (prone) rather than damage. Defensive or Deadeye shot might go in this slot, but since precision-based damage is not multiplied on a crit, Deadeye shot is worthless, and it's going to be rare indeed that you want to throw things while opponents are in melee with you.

Weak Spot. Touch attacks are nice. Combo with Sneaky Shot for flat-footed touch attacks on every attack.

[pilvento]

If you can, get Races Of the Wild (3.5 book).

Wisperknife is the best prc ever for sneaky weapon throwers.
-Full Bab
-Sneak Attack
-Ranged Flanking!!!
-Poison use
-Improved Returning weapons
-DEX BASED DEATH ATTACK

a friend of mine is playing a rouge3/fighter2/wisperknife10/masterthorower5

he has arround 9 throwing attacks per round (18 including palm shot)
and a big load of SA dmg

[Salanmander]

I would not recommend either Palm Throw or Tumbling Toss. The former, because it is a volley attack, and so precision-based damage (read: all of it) is only applied to one attack.

...

Sneaky Shot = applying precision-based damage. Since this is 90% of your damage, you want to apply it.


Palm throw can actually be /really/ nice with shuriken. It's true that the only advantage is throwing another shuriken, and you don't get precision damage to it. However, the only /disadvantage/ is not applying your strength bonus. You don't have a strength bonus, do you? Cool, I've just gotten, at worst, +1 damage per attack I make (modulo DR). That's not great, but it's something. The good part, though, is that shuriken are priced as ammo, and are therefore dirt cheap to do cool things with. Get a few potions of flame arrow, and on the round that you move into a good position, also get ready to nuke the everliving daylights out of something. At higher levels, carry 12 or so of every +1 bane shuriken you think might come up. I had a high level master thrower at one point that made six attacks per round. With +1 bane shuriken that have been doped with a potion of flame arrow, that's an extra 6*(4+2d6+1d6 fire) = avg. a little under 60 extra damage. Nothing to sneer at.

Sneaky shot, on the other hand, is not very good. As a dex-based master thrower you want as much TWF as you can get, for as many attacks as possible, because you'll hardly ever miss due to a bad attack role. Sneaky shot requires that you use a move action, meaning you will only get 1 attack per round. You're right that precision damage is a lot of what you do, but you should have a reliable way of getting sneak attack in and still be able to full attack. A source of invisibility, blink, /something/ that will let you full attack. It's critical.

Sneaky shot is nice as a backup, but not as your primary schtick, and palm throw makes your primary schtick better. Basically, I recommend:
palm throw
weak spot (everyone agrees on this)
anything

That anything doesn't matter much. I like trip shot, but sneaky shot is also good for that: a backup when you can't get off a full sneak attack.

Edit: corrected ability name.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Palm throw can actually be /really/ nice with shuriken. It's true that the only advantage is throwing another shuriken, and you don't get precision damage to it. However, the only /disadvantage/ is not applying your strength bonus. You don't have a strength bonus, do you? Cool, I've just gotten, at worst, +1 damage per attack I make (modulo DR). That's not great, but it's something. The good part, though, is that shuriken are priced as ammo, and are therefore dirt cheap to do cool things with. Get a few potions of flame arrow, and on the round that you move into a good position, also get ready to nuke the everliving daylights out of something. At higher levels, carry 12 or so of every +1 bane shuriken you think might come up. I had a high level master thrower at one point that made six attacks per round. With +1 bane shuriken that have been doped with a potion of flame arrow, that's an extra 6*(4+2d6+1d6 fire) = avg. a little under 60 extra damage. Nothing to sneer at. As long as you are aware that 99% of the character's damage output (sneak attack) will not be applied to it, fine.


Sneaky shot, on the other hand, is not very good. As a dex-based master thrower you want as much TWF as you can get, for as many attacks as possible, because you'll hardly ever miss due to a bad attack role. Sneaky shot requires that you use a move action, meaning you will only get 1 attack per round. You're right that precision damage is a lot of what you do, but you should have a reliable way of getting sneak attack in and still be able to full attack. A source of invisibility, blink, /something/ that will let you full attack. It's critical.Wrong. It's not a move action. It's a Slight of Hand check as you make the attack. Which means it's a part of the attack action. Which means you do this with every attack. This is *HUGE*. This is "I always sneak attack, yes even then. Yes, even people with Uncanny Dodge. Yes, even people with Foresight. Yes, even people with Robe of Eyes. All those ways of keeping yourself from being Sneak Attacked? Just got subverted. Unless you got immunities (for which I have wands to counter you), you're eating sneak attack damage".


Sneaky shot is nice as a backup, but not as your primary schtick, and palm throw makes your primary schtick better. Basically, I recommend:
palm throw
weak spot (everyone agrees on this)
anything

That anything doesn't matter much. I like trip shot, but sneaky shot is also good for that: a backup when you can't get off a full sneak attack.

Edit: corrected ability name.
Sneaky Shot makes your primary shtick viable. Palm Throw is an extra one point of damage. I'd go with Sneaky Shot, personally.

[Cog]

Wrong. It's not a move action. It's a Slight of Hand check as you make the attack.
This is simply wrong.

Just before making a ranged attack, a master thrower with this ability can use a move action to make a Sleight of Hand check opposed by her target’s Spot check.

[Arros Winhadren]

Master Thrower is honestly not a very good class. I spent days and days trying to make a good throwing build and finally concluded that the only good thrower is Bloodstorm Blade. Still, if you want to make a non-TOB throwing character, I'd suggest avoiding Master Thrower and focusing on getting a bunch of attacks through other classes. If your DM allows you to get a bag of infinite shuriken (that you can then enchant), then Master Thrower can be useful in getting a ton of shuriken thrown at enemies. The reason you need a bag of infinite shuriken is that shuriken are destroyed when thrown, and your character will quickly run out of money enchanting new bags of shuriken.

You could try a Str-based Whirling Frenzy barbarian mixed with Monk for Flurry of Blows, take Brutal Throw and get your Bag of Infinite Shurikens of Wounding. Still not fantastic, but you will probably have a more consistent ranged damage output than with Master Thrower.

EDIT: I take that back, the damage is so reliant on the Shurikens being Wounding that taking Strength is a waste of time, at which point you might as well go Master Thrower. Which is still a waste of time.

[Salanmander]

Master Thrower is honestly not a very good class. I spent days and days trying to make a good throwing build and finally concluded that the only good thrower is Bloodstorm Blade. Still, if you want to make a non-TOB throwing character, I'd suggest avoiding Master Thrower and focusing on getting a bunch of attacks through other classes. If your DM allows you to get a bag of infinite shuriken (that you can then enchant), then Master Thrower can be useful in getting a ton of shuriken thrown at enemies. The reason you need a bag of infinite shuriken is that shuriken are destroyed when thrown, and your character will quickly run out of money enchanting new bags of shuriken.

You could try a Str-based Whirling Frenzy barbarian mixed with Monk for Flurry of Blows, take Brutal Throw and get your Bag of Infinite Shurikens of Wounding. Still not fantastic, but you will probably have a more consistent ranged damage output than with Master Thrower.

EDIT: I take that back, the damage is so reliant on the Shurikens being Wounding that taking Strength is a waste of time, at which point you might as well go Master Thrower. Which is still a waste of time.

Wait, you postulate a bag of infinite shurikens of wounding, and then say master thrower is a waste of time? If I have a bag of infinite shurikens of wounding, I could make a kickass character that has no features except: 1) BAB, 2) TWF tree, 3) weak spot, and 4) palm throw. 12-18 Con damage per round, no save? Yes please.

[Stix]

my favorite has always been poison making i know it's been said but if you can keep scaling the poisons with level especially (may require homebrew in some cases) the amount of projectiles a MT can put out per round can force a whole ton of saves and eventually everyone fails a save.

2cents

[Salanmander]

my favorite has always been poison making i know it's been said but if you can keep scaling the poisons with level especially (may require homebrew in some cases) the amount of projectiles a MT can put out per round can force a whole ton of saves and eventually everyone fails a save.

2cents

Yeah, if you don't houserule away failures on a nat-1, then 14 doses per round of "save or lose" drow poison is pretty useful.

[Arros Winhadren]

Wait, you postulate a bag of infinite shurikens of wounding, and then say master thrower is a waste of time? If I have a bag of infinite shurikens of wounding, I could make a kickass character that has no features except: 1) BAB, 2) TWF tree, 3) weak spot, and 4) palm throw. 12-18 Con damage per round, no save? Yes please.

If Master Thrower is only good with infinite wounding shurikens then it is the shurikens that are good, not the class. I'm saying that Master Thrower is a waste of time because if you can get infinite wounding shurikens, there are countless better options available to you.

[Salanmander]

If Master Thrower is only good with infinite wounding shurikens then it is the shurikens that are good, not the class. I'm saying that Master Thrower is a waste of time because if you can get infinite wounding shurikens, there are countless better options available to you.

No. If you can get those shuriken, then Master Thrower is hands down the BEST five levels you will ever see. It will double your number of attacks, and turn all of them into touch attacks.

Master Thrower is already a fairly good class that gave thrown weapons advantages that bow users don't have for the first time. Your example just took it from "pretty good" to "stupidly powerful".

Edit: On the scale, of course, of martial characters in general.

[gorfnab]

This last part is important because it makes you eligible for the Daring Outlaw feat which allows you to count your Swash levels as Rogue levels for Sneak Attack progression. This actually puts you ahead of where a straight rogue would be!!

The Craven feat from Champions of Ruin would be a much better option for more sneak attack damage.

[Wonderman]

If Master Thrower is only good with infinite wounding shurikens then it is the shurikens that are good, not the class. I'm saying that Master Thrower is a waste of time because if you can get infinite wounding shurikens, there are countless better options available to you.

Would you say that Invisible blade is a better fit instead of Master Thrower? Would you go more melee combat then? Cause my group at the moment really doesn't need that... and its tier 3 and below classes, so I'm kinda screwed on casters/ranged since there is already a ranger...

[SleepyShadow]

Would you say that Invisible blade is a better fit instead of Master Thrower? Would you go more melee combat then? Cause my group at the moment really doesn't need that... and its tier 3 and below classes, so I'm kinda screwed on casters/ranged since there is already a ranger...

Play what you want to play. Master Thrower is a good class, especially since your group is Tier 3 and lower. You'll be doing fine. If you are trying to throw things, then you really only have three options: Hulking Hurler, Bloodstorm Blade, and Master Thrower. Now, given the fact that Master Thrower is only 5 levels long, you can easily go into one of the other two more powerful thrower classes later.

[Doughnut Master]

Can the Master Thrower skill tricks be combined? For instance, using Ricochet Shot, Palm Throw, and Weak Spot all together?

[Salanmander]

Can the Master Thrower skill tricks be combined? For instance, using Ricochet Shot, Palm Throw, and Weak Spot all together?

Typically they can, as long as they don't require a specific action to use, although be prepared for DMs houseruling otherwise. I assume by Ricochet Shot you mean Two with One Blow, and in that case I'm not sure how it would combine with Palm Throw (or, for that matter sneak attack), but it should work at least somewhat. Pessimal case is only one of the Palm Throw weapons hits both targets, and it only applies sneak attack to one of the targets, but even that is something.