Minotaur Confusion

[AxeD]

I'm trying to build a Minotaur NPC for a campaign I'm running and I'm not sure exactly how do it. I want to give it 11 levels of Ranger (so that it has combat mastery and can wield a large hand axe in each hand) and I'm not sure how that stacks with the Minotaur template.

This is my understanding:

Minotaurs have a +2 Level adjustment.
Minotaurs begin with six levels of monstrous humanoid, which provide 6d8 Hit Dice.

So, if I want a 11th level Minotaur ranger, he would be ECL 13? and have 11d8 + 6d8 hit dice? and have +17 BAB? That doesn't sound right.

[Runestar]

A minotaur is cr4, adding 11 class lvs would, by the book, raise its cr to 15 (assuming rangers are associated).

ECL is used only if you want to use a minotaur as a player character. He will be ECL8 (6 racial HD, LA+2). To take its first class lv, it needs to be 9th lv.

[Darrin]

Minotaurs have a +2 Level adjustment.
Minotaurs begin with six levels of monstrous humanoid, which provide 6d8 Hit Dice.

So, if I want a 11th level Minotaur ranger, he would be ECL 13? and have 11d8 + 6d8 hit dice? and have +17 BAB? That doesn't sound right.

ECL = Racial HD + Class Levels + Level Adjustment = 6 + 11 + 2 = 19

...which is why you frequently hear lots of people bemoaning about how racial HD/LA is so not worth it.

There are a lot of fixes out there, but in this case what might commonly be advised is to replace the racial HD with class levels and use LA buyoff for the LA +2.

Another solution might be to use the Minotaur stats from the Dragonlance Campaign Setting:

+4 Str, - 2 Dex, -2 Int, -2 Cha
Size: medium;
Natura Armor Bonus +2;
Natural Attack: Gore Attack 1d6 (2d6 + 1.5 Str when charging)
+2 racial bonus to Intimidate, Swim, Use Rope checks;
May tak the feat "Scent"
Automatic Languages: Common, Kothian
Favored Class: Fighter
Level Adjustment: +0

(In my own campaign world, I also let them take "Powerful Build" as a feat at 1st level)

[AxeD]

A minotaur is cr4, adding 11 class lvs would, by the book, raise its cr to 15 (assuming rangers are associated).

Cheers, I'll use this method.

[Yora]

Yes, he would have 11d8 + 6d8 Hid Dice and from that get +11 and +6 BAB for a total of +17.
He would also have base saves of Fortitude +9 (+7+2), Reflex +12 (+7+5), and Will +8 (+3+5).

[AxeD]

Related question: since he has a natural attack, how does that fit in with two weapon fighting, or even a single weapon full attack?

With 11 levels of Ranger, does he get (on a full attack):

3 attacks with the offhand at -2, 3 attacks with the offhand at -2 and a goring attack at normal AB?

Or just 3 attacks with both the main and offhand, all at -2?

[Runestar]

Related question: since he has a natural attack, how does that fit in with two weapon fighting, or even a single weapon full attack?

With 11 levels of Ranger, does he get (on a full attack):

3 attacks with the offhand at -2, 3 attacks with the offhand at -2 and a goring attack at normal AB?

Or just 3 attacks with both the main and offhand, all at -2?

Full-attack routine with both weapons as per normal, then gore as a secondary attack (-5 to-hit, 1/2 str mod to damage). If you are TWFing, note that this penalty also stacks with the -2 attack penalty.

So in your case, on a full attack with 2 weapons at bab+17, he would have +15/+10/+5/+0 with main hand, +15/+10/+5 with off-hand and +10 with gore.

[Major]

Cheers, I'll use this method.

Except it doesn't work unless you are dropping the racial hit die...

As already mentioned the reason those stats are high is because racial hit die is very similar to racial hit die except you still get feats and attributes. It's like levels in a separate "Rawr I'm a minotaur class"

[Cog]

Except it doesn't work unless you are dropping the racial hit die...
That's not how CR (Challenge Rating, not Effective Character Level) works. NPCs are generally expected to use CR over ECL anyway, so Runestar's suggestion was entirely valid.

[Major]

Ahhhh I misread. He wanted CR, not ECL. I thought it said PC not NPC. Nevermind then.

[Darrin]

Full-attack routine with both weapons as per normal, then gore as a secondary attack (-5 to-hit, 1/2 str mod to damage). If you are TWFing, note that this penalty also stacks with the -2 attack penalty.


Nope. The -2 TWF penalty only applies to your primary and off-hand attacks. The secondary gore attack would be -5, not -7.

Flurry and Snap Kick penalties are applied to all your attacks, but the TWF penalty only applies to your TWF attacks.

[Graytemplar]

what about a charge attack?
doesnt he get some sort of bonus to his gore attack, or does gore attack become his primary attack when charging, and his two hand weapons become secondary

[Runestar]

Nope. The -2 TWF penalty only applies to your primary and off-hand attacks. The secondary gore attack would be -5, not -7.

Flurry and Snap Kick penalties are applied to all your attacks, but the TWF penalty only applies to your TWF attacks.

I reread the PHB, and yes, you are absolutely right. Must have confused it with flurry or something. :smallredface:

[Yora]

what about a charge attack?
doesnt he get some sort of bonus to his gore attack, or does gore attack become his primary attack when charging, and his two hand weapons become secondary
Minotaur has the special ability to make a gore attack as his primary natural attack when charging.

Hold That: A minotaur has only a single natural attack, so it's always a primary natural attack. However, he can also use it as a secondary attack when making a full attack with a weapon.

[Darrin]

what about a charge attack?

You can only make one melee attack at the end of a charge. The minotaur could pick either weapon in his hand as a primary weapon for the charge attack, or use his gore as the primary attack. With Powerful Charge (Ex), he gets extra damage (4d6+6, not sure where the 4d6 comes from but the +6 is Str x 1.5), but other than the +2 attack/-2 AC for charging, there wouldn't be any particular difference in attack bonus for whatever weapon he chose to use. Without Pounce, there would be no off-hand or secondary attacks.



doesnt he get some sort of bonus to his gore attack, or does gore attack become his primary attack when charging, and his two hand weapons become secondary

With Pounce, the minotaur could get: primary weapon -2, light off-hand weapon -2, gore -5. Actually, with the +2 attack from charge, more like primary weapon +0, light off-hand weapon +0, gore -3. He would not get to use both TWF and Powerful Charge (Ex) on the same full attack because Powerful Charge specifies that the gore attack would have to be a single attack.

The minotaur *could* declare his gore attack is his primary weapon and use some other weapon as an off-hand attack, but since the gore is a natural weapon, it's still limited to only one attack per round (no iteratives), and he still can't use Powerful Charge (Ex). He would only get two attacks then: the primary (gore) and his off-hand attack. So he's probably better off full-attacking with TWF + secondary (gore).

TWF attacks never become "secondary", they are always either primary or off-hand attacks. "Secondary" is a term that only applies to natural weapons.


I reread the PHB, and yes, you are absolutely right. Must have confused it with flurry or something. :smallredface:

Actually, I thought the exact same thing was RAW up until Keld pointed it out a couple days ago. It seem like such a generalized mechanic ("get extra attack, -2 on all attacks"), I didn't realize the TWF rules were so specific.

[Divide by Zero]

Minotaur has the special ability to make a gore attack as his primary natural attack when charging.

Hold That: A minotaur has only a single natural attack, so it's always a primary natural attack. However, he can also use it as a secondary attack when making a full attack with a weapon.

If you use manufactured weapons, all natural attacks are secondary.