Weapon Mastery feats overpowered?

[Kornilios]

Weapon mastery feats(PH2) are op,aren't they?Think of it!For example compare them with greater weapon spec.
Greater Weapon Spec Req:Weapon focus,Weapon Spec,Greater Weapon Focus,12 bab
Benefit:+2 dmg with a single Weapon

Weapon Mastery Req:Weapon focus,weapon spec,8 bab
Benefit:+2 dmg.+2 ab with ALL weapons of one kind!!
Is this logical?A feat with fewer req to give a far greater benefit(almost triple)?
What's your opinion?

[Sir Homeslice]

Not even slightly overpowered. Or anything approaching overpowered.

[Mastikator]

They're underpowered if anything, it's just that weapon focus/specialization are even more underpowered.

[Major]

+2 damage and accuracy...vs the ability to fly, teleport, stop time, open gates to alternate dimensions, get wishes...'

Nope, melee can have that. It's not even a really nice thing since its such a tiny boost and overall the prereqs hurt.

[Kornilios]

They're underpowered if anything, it's just that weapon focus/specialization are even more underpowered.

I understand that if you a fighter with these feats with,let's say a druid,well druid is better.But if you compare a fighter with these feats with a ranger or barbarian or paladin,fighter's power is much greater.

[Partysan]

To give a more serious answer:
- While Weapon Mastery feats are more powerful than Focus or Specialization, those are actually prerequisites for the Mastery feats. So it isn't as if you could just take Mastery because it's better than Focus/Spec, you already have those and expand on them.
- Furthermore, expanding the Foc/Spec benefits on to multiple weapons will not be more powerful since you won't be using that many different weapons. It's just a tiny bit of flexibility.
- Lastly, a flat and very small bonus to attack or damage rolls is an extremely weak bonus anyway and most people are well advised not to take Foc/Spec feats because of this.

[LansXero]

I understand that if you a fighter with these feats with,let's say a druid,well druid is better.But if you compare a fighter with these feats with a ranger or barbarian or paladin,fighter's power is much greater.

but the barbarian gets the exact same bonus at level 1 from rage, with any kind of attack. And actual class features. The paladin gets more with smites and spells, and rangers get more from favored enemy. So not really overpowered.

[Major]

Ok? Rangers and Barbarians are also stronger than a fighter. Plus I'd argue if one is better. +2 to accuracy and +2 to damage really isn't that large an amount. If the fighter wants to blow most his bonus feats on getting REALLY good with just swinging his sword why not? It reflects the fighter being a "weapon master."

The ranger gets spells, animal companion, and combat style feats. The barbarian gets rage, DR, extra movement, etc. I think those playing straight fighter can get a VERY tiny weapon requirement boost.

Edit: Semi-swordsaged

[Ravens_cry]

They are a little broken in the sense of "If it is available they are the better option." but they are hardly game breaking.

[Major]

Except to get avalible you have to have the lower version. That's like saying Epic or Cumbrous will (or whatever that will boosting feat is) is broken because its better than iron will.

[Killer Angel]

But if you compare a fighter with these feats with a ranger or barbarian or paladin,fighter's power is much greater.

Even if this were true, the strenght of barbarian and (especially) ranger lies in their superior versatility.

[Ravens_cry]

Except to get avalible you have to have the lower version. That's like saying Epic or Cumbrous will (or whatever that will boosting feat is) is broken because its better than iron will.
Yiou don't need greater weapon specification to take weapon mastery. But yes, for the most part I agree. The prerequisites suck for both.

[Kornilios]

Except to get avalible you have to have the lower version. That's like saying Epic or Cumbrous will (or whatever that will boosting feat is) is broken because its better than iron will.

Weapon Spec has better req,and gives fewer benefits,it's not the same thing

[darksolitaire]

This whole topic is a joke, isn't it? :smallconfused:

[Mastikator]

I understand that if you a fighter with these feats with,let's say a druid,well druid is better.But if you compare a fighter with these feats with a ranger or barbarian or paladin,fighter's power is much greater.

If you compare these feats with other feats that are available to the fighter then they're still terribly underpowered. Improved critical is one such feat, power attack, improved initiative from the SRD, there's plenty more from other sources.

The problem here is that there's two feat lines that improves weapon types, and one is terribly underpowered and the other is only pretty underpowered. There should only be one line and it should be worthwhile.

[Gnaeus]

Even if this were true, the strenght of barbarian and (especially) ranger lies in their superior versatility.

Ranger MAYBE. They are rarely better than a fighter in a toe-to-toe slugfest (Although they can be if carefully built). Barbarian with pounce at level 1 is both more versatile than fighter, and better in combat.

[Major]

This whole topic is a joke, isn't it? :smallconfused:

The fighter(PH) is op,aren't they?Think of it!For example compare them with Sorcerer.

The fighter: Uses strength and constitution. BEST STATS. Doesn't use Charisma. GOOD!
Benefit: full BAB, lots of bonus feats.

Sorcerer: Uses charisma. WHO USES CHARISMA?
Benefit: 1/2 BAB, No bonus feats or class features at all! (Except familiar, big deal)

Is this logical?A class with a better stat to give a far greater benefit(almost triple)?
What's your opinion?

[Saintheart]

Weapon mastery feats(PH2) are op,aren't they?Think of it!For example compare them with greater weapon spec.
Greater Weapon Spec Req:Weapon focus,Weapon Spec,Greater Weapon Focus,12 bab
Benefit:+2 dmg with a single Weapon

Weapon Mastery Req:Weapon focus,weapon spec,8 bab
Benefit:+2 dmg.+2 ab with ALL weapons of one kind!!
Is this logical?A feat with fewer req to give a far greater benefit(almost triple)?
What's your opinion?

Put it this way.

In order to obtain Weapon Mastery with all weapons of one kind, you have to invest 3 feat slots and be at least a 12th level fighter before you can get them. Your payoff is +2 attack and damage bonuses with all weapons of a given kind.

Now take, just by contrast, the Craven feat. Traditionally the preserve of the weedy, sneaky rogue who similarly is stuck with a particular variety of weapons. Its prerequisites come down to having a single level of rogue for the sneak attack and no immunity to fear.

Its benefit is that, on sneak attack, you do +1 damage per character level. That is, by the time the 12th level fighter qualifies for a feat which does +2 extra damage with +2 attack bonuses, the rogue will be doing +12 damage with every sneak attack strike -- of which, because of the way a rogue has to play, many will be sneak attack. The rogue will have spent his feats on things like Two Weapon Fighting, Telling Blow, Improved Critical or just gone and bought a keen enchantment for his weapons, thus giving him around four strikes per round when he need only roll above 15-20 to have the potential of adding another +12 to his damage, if he isn't otherwise doing sneak attack at the same time.

That's the return on investment for one feat. And that's even before you go anywhere near a tier one class like a cleric, druid or wizard. Just being able to reliably do +2 and +2 damage with a given set of weapons simply does not impress.

In brief, this would be the conversation in the party:

Fighter: Check it out, guys, I can do +2 attack and damage on any weapon I can pick up!
Bard: Oh wow. You mean I'll have to slow down giving you +5 to every attack and damage roll you make with any weapon you pick up?
Cleric: You mean you won't need all those buff spells I can lay out for you?
Wizard: And you won't need me to hit the enemy with spells like Glitterdust which basically supersede +2 on attack at least, and consequently on damage?
Warblade: Fine. Enjoy your +2 attack and/or damage while I set people on fire with my sword and get several more attacks per round than humanly possible because I chose Tome of Wuxia Battle feats.

In short, no, these feats are not overpowered. They are underpowered due to their crippling prerequisites -- i.e. the opportunity cost is way too high. Even if they weren't, they are seriously underpowered compared against even other basic stuff that unimpressive classes like fighters can access, and all due respect but they're laughably underpowered given you had to spend three feats on getting something any half-decent bard could give you for any weapon you pick up, not just the ones you're overspecialised into.

[OverdrivePrime]

Not even remotely overpowered. There are much better feats that a fighter, ranger, paladin or barbarian could pick up if you're looking at 'better' as pure damage-dealing capability.

Once you start understanding that versatility and options = better... then no, it's not even close. Weapon focus, weapon spec, greater WF and WS, and WM should probably have been fighter class features. As feats, they're just drags.

[erikun]

Sorcerer: Uses charisma. WHO USES CHARISMA?
Only the strongest class in the game. That's right, you know what I'm talking about: the Commoner. I mean, Handle Animal. How could you not consider it brokenly good?


Benefit: 1/2 BAB, No bonus feats or class features at all! (Except familiar, big deal)
Hey now, the only thing making Lightning Warrior even remotely balanced was the lack of a familiar.

[Saintheart]

The fighter(PH) is op,aren't they?Think of it!For example compare them with Sorcerer.

The fighter: Uses strength and constitution. BEST STATS. Doesn't use Charisma. GOOD!
Benefit: full BAB, lots of bonus feats.

Sorcerer: Uses charisma. WHO USES CHARISMA?
Benefit: 1/2 BAB, No bonus feats or class features at all! (Except familiar, big deal)

Is this logical?A class with a better stat to give a far greater benefit(almost triple)?
What's your opinion?

Isn't it obvious? TRUENAMER, BRO!

[Major]

Only the strongest class in the game. That's right, you know what I'm talking about: the Commoner. I mean, Handle Animal. How could you not consider it brokenly good?


Hey now, the only thing making Lightning Warrior even remotely balanced was the lack of a familiar.

Dude, they don't use charisma. They use Intelligence for craft basket weaving, DUH!

And dude, lightning warrior is so underpowered! They should have given it a familiar! I mean, no familiar? Screw that. That's the ONLY reason to play a Sorcerer. Imagine telling your friends "Hi, my magic is so strong because I'm pretty!" Total loser.


Isn't it obvious? TRUENAMER, BRO!

Truenamer is so legit. I love playing a truenamer and watching my DM cry as I rewrite the universe with my power. Truenaming is what the wizard SHOULD have been.

[Person_Man]

It's a common misconception for new 3.X/PF players, especially those who have played Heroclix or 4E first. In 3.X/PF, being able to hit your opponent is actually quite easy for higher Tier classes because of the existence of buffs, touch attacks, and area of effect attacks. They render "small" Feats like Weapon Focus and Mastery pointless.

[mootoall]

Major, I want you to walk your behind over to the "Wai it Al so Amine" thread right now and cover Tome of Magic. Right now.

[Major]

Major, I want you to walk your behind over to the "Wai it Al so Amine" thread right now and cover Tome of Magic. Right now.

But, but Tome of Battle is 100% western and not anime at all!

[mootoall]

It's true, innit? I'm glad Wizards finally replaced that Anime fighter with the realistic, German flavoured swordfighter, the Warblade.

[Iruka]

It's true, innit? I'm glad Wizards finally replaced that Anime fighter with the realistic, German flavoured swordfighter, the Warblade.

With so much german flavour that he's more like a Beerblade.

[TroubleBrewing]

With so much german flavour that he's more like a Beerblade.

Or a Kaiserblade.

Hm. :smallconfused:

That actually sounds rad. :smallamused:

[navar100]

Weapon mastery feats(PH2) are op,aren't they?Think of it!For example compare them with greater weapon spec.
Greater Weapon Spec Req:Weapon focus,Weapon Spec,Greater Weapon Focus,12 bab
Benefit:+2 dmg with a single Weapon

Weapon Mastery Req:Weapon focus,weapon spec,8 bab
Benefit:+2 dmg.+2 ab with ALL weapons of one kind!!
Is this logical?A feat with fewer req to give a far greater benefit(almost triple)?
What's your opinion?

With 12 BAB requirement, that means a minimum 12th level character.

Are you ok with a 12th level character dealing 10d6 damage to everyone in a 20ft radius from 520ft away?

How about a 12th level character making a range touch attack to deal 24d6 damage to someone 60ft away?

Consider then a character in melee wielding two short swords +2 making 4 attacks on a full attack action dealing 7d6 + 3 damage per attack for a total of 28d6 + 12 damage if all attacks hit?

Clearly you also think it's overpowered for a 12th level character to heal himself of 120 hit points of damage as a standard action?

[Divide by Zero]

Ranger MAYBE. They are rarely better than a fighter in a toe-to-toe slugfest (Although they can be if carefully built). Barbarian with pounce at level 1 is both more versatile than fighter, and better in combat.

But a straight-up duel doesn't compare the power of the classes at all, and melee isn't really the ranger's strength anyway. With a bit of splat support, they're much better archers than the fighter, for example.

[NNescio]

Or a Kaiserblade.

Hm. :smallconfused:

That actually sounds rad. :smallamused:

Die Kaiserklinge! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaiser_blade)

[John Campbell]

If my Ranger's in a toe-to-toe slugfest with a well-built Fighter, I already screwed up. I should be hanging out a hundred feet away on my companion/mount, which can back off at single-move faster than he can charge, hitting him with full attack after full attack from my composite longbow at a distance at which he can't effectively respond, and if his Weapon Mastery isn't in something ranged, it's not doing him any good.

And because he can't see me, can't hear me, and can't hide from me, because he gets terrible skills from a weak list, and I get heaps of 'em from a pretty good list, the fight pretty much gets set up the way I want it.

[MeeposFire]

Weapon mastery essentially allows the fighter to increase his bonus to damage equal to a barbarian using rage with a one handed weapon (if he took all the weapon feats). That is not a big deal in any way. In fact fighters need this if they want to have decently damaging attacks outside of charges. They were even weaker before which should tell you something. This is one of those mystic theurge situations where something looks to good but it is not that good it is just alright.

[Flame of Anor]

The prereq is a +8 BAB, not a +12, by the way.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Only the strongest class in the game. That's right, you know what I'm talking about: the Commoner. I mean, Handle Animal. How could you not consider it brokenly good?

Oh yeah, that's the most OP class in the entire game! And it's total crap that they're the majority of the people, I replace commoners with sorcerers and wizards.

In all seriousness, +2 attack and damage is not even remotely OP. Two 1st level spells boost AC by four, each. A 2nd level spell turns someone invisible. A 3rd spell let's someone fly.

[Qwertystop]

Only the strongest class in the game. That's right, you know what I'm talking about: the Commoner. I mean, Handle Animal. How could you not consider it brokenly good?

Actually, Handle Animal is VERY good if you have prep time. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871522/The_Handle_Animal_Guide)

[Hiro Protagonest]

Actually, Handle Animal is VERY good if you have prep time. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871522/The_Handle_Animal_Guide)

We know about the handle animal potential (dire tigers and eagles! Oh, and the 36 HD battletitan :smalleek:), but that alone does not make the commoner OP. Although a commoner who maxed out is handle animal (without even getting some of the worse animals, just wolves, dire wolves, and some Talenata dinosaurs since we're in Eberron) would be overpowered in my group.

[Talya]

Not to mention the incredible Chicken Infested "flaw."

[Allanimal]

Or a Kaiserblade.


Some folks call it a sling blade, I call it a Kaiser blade.