Mounted Charging Question

[Major]

So...I'm obviously missing something, but if your mount charges can it attack at the end of the charge as well?

As such if I'm an Ashworm Dragoon and my mount charges and I have a lance do I get to stab it while 10 feet away and then the mount attacks it once it gets to 5ft away?

Actually that opens another question. Being a large mount and being on top of it is my reach still 10ft in front of me? Or do I have to aim down somewhat and as such am closer?

If my mount makes a bullrush/trample attempt can I attack before it gets to it (the whole 10 foot thing again)

[Vladislav]

It doesn't really make sense, but when mounted, you are considered to occupy every square your mount occupies. So if you're riding a Large (10'x10') mount, you are simultaneously at all four squares. You could make an attack into any area you could reach from either of the four squares, and an enemy who could reach any of the four squares can make an attack against you.

Anyway, here's all you need to know about mounted combat:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050125a

[Major]

Thank you, I read all five parts of that and it helped a lot. Part five answered that both can attack in a charge and a few other parts gave me some awesome ideas.

[Darrin]

So...I'm obviously missing something, but if your mount charges can it attack at the end of the charge as well?

As such if I'm an Ashworm Dragoon and my mount charges and I have a lance do I get to stab it while 10 feet away and then the mount attacks it once it gets to 5ft away?


Congratulations and welcome to the most poorly written rules in the PHB! The mounted combat rules were never adequately playtested (not even when they upgraded to 3.5!), so there are several quirks in them that you have to house-rule on sort of a case-by-case basis. The original rules never anticipated the sheer number of different ways you could move + full attack, nor the variety of creatures that might wind up as mounts/riders. The assumption of "medium-sized humanoid riding a horse with hooves" pervades most of the rules.

By RAW (Rules As Written), you have to wait to make your melee attack "at end of the charge", which as any experienced caballero can tell you, is complete monkeysnot if you're trying to hit something with a lance (reach weapon), since you can no longer hit a medium-sized "adjacent foe". Most DMs handwave this by letting you attack from the first square where your lance can hit (generally 10' away), let the mount continue the last 5' and then attack.

It gets more bizarre once you throw Ride-By Attack into the mix, since the charge rules demand you to charge the closest square, and the Ride-By Attack rules insist you have to continue in a straight line... through an occupied square that you can't legally move through. The easiest way around this is to tweak the charge/Ride-By Attack rules so that you can charge "the nearest square that allows you to attack and then continue in a straight line".




Actually that opens another question. Being a large mount and being on top of it is my reach still 10ft in front of me? Or do I have to aim down somewhat and as such am closer?


The rules aren't entirely clear what square you "occupy" when you have a medium-sized creature on top of a large-sized mount. I think most DMs just assume you can occupy whichever square you like whenever you make an attack, which means you effectively occupy your mount's "space" (i.e., 10' x 10') but still have your own reach (sword = 5', lance = up to 10' away but can't attack "adjacent"). The "adjacent" wording is particularly annoying... without it, you could "occupy" one of the "rear" squares on your mount and thus attack a target 10' away but "adjacent" to your mount.

I think the easiest fix is to allow the lance attack to happen from the first (or "best") square where it's legal to make an attack (that is, from 10' away), and then let the mount continue it's movement/attacks/etc.



If my mount makes a bullrush/trample attempt can I attack before it gets to it (the whole 10 foot thing again)

A bull rush would work just like any other mounted attack, except that if you were bull rushing on a charge, the charge isn't "at the end" until your mount moves into your opponent's square and resolve the bull rush. As before, if you're trying to attack with a lance, it's best to ignore the "at the end" stipulation and resolve the lance attack from the first square where you can make an attack, and then let the mount continue it's charge/bull rush. This actually makes sense if you assume the tip of the lance is 5' in front of your mount, you'd expect the lance to hit before your mount could get close enough to initiate the bull rush.

Trample is a whole 'nuther can of worms. If you're referring to Trample as a feat... don't even bother. You have to use Overrun, which is a complete and total waste of an action. You have to move, then waste your standard action for the Overrun check, and maybe you knock him prone and can continue moving... but for what purpose I have no idea, since you wasted your standard action on the overrun. Your mount might get a hoof attack, but he would have gotten an attack anyway if you'd just moved forward + attack. If you want your opponent prone, charging lance = dead opponent = prone. Or trip him. If you want to move past/through an opponent, use Tumble or a Jump check.

If you mean Trample (Ex), well then, that's loads of fun but you're dealing with an unusual tactic that the designers didn't anticipate in the mounted combat rules. Technically, the rules say you have to wait until your mount reaches the target before you can make a melee attack, but it doesn't say if you get to attack immediately or have to wait until the mount stops moving. Since a trampling mount could conceivably move away from a trampled target before it stops moving (or pulverize it before you get to attack), it's probably best to make your melee attack as soon as you're close enough and then let your mount finish it's trample afterwards. For reach weapons, use your best judgement about which square to attack from. Another odd little quirk to the Trample (Ex) rules: unlike the Trample feat, it doesn't actually knock your opponents prone.

The mounted combat rules are a mess, and spread over several different sections in the PHB (the skills section for the Ride skill, the feat section for Mounted Combat/Ride-By Attack, and the combat section to confuse/contradict everything in the other two sections). The best thing to remember is to handwave most of the RAW stuff and use your common sense.

[Major]

I see, thank you for all that. I'll have to link the DM to this and talk to him then. On a side note the reason for trample was because as an Ashworm Dragoon if I have trample I can flatten the target so hard that it takes a full round action to get up from it. I figured that'd be very useful in cases where I want to hold back so I don't steal any spot light (not sure how good the other players are).

I figured cavalry charge might be useful also. Being large would mean I'd be able to flatten quite a few people and force all of them to waste their entire turn getting up.

So, I have a question about the charge rule. Based on the ending thing, unless the DM house rules does that mean that I can't use ride by attack to charge, stab, burrow underground. Repeat?

[Darrin]

So, I have a question about the charge rule. Based on the ending thing, unless the DM house rules does that mean that I can't use ride by attack to charge, stab, burrow underground. Repeat?

Hmm... you might be able to get that to work if you have some way to give your ashworm another move action. Off the top of my head:

1) White Raven Tactics (Tome of Battle).
2) Marshal 4 class ability (Miniatures Handbook)
3) Tempo bloodspike (Magic of Eberron)
4) Threefold Mask of the Chimera, Crown bind, Share Soulmeld, and some way to share spells with your ashworm

None of these are easily repeatable.

Ride-By Attack has the whole "straight line" thing. There are a couple ways to change directions while charging, but I don't think any of them work with Ride-By Attack... or mounts. Twisted Charge might work if you can convince your DM that a mount can learn skill tricks, but that's only 1/encounter. Teaching ToB maneuvers to a mount is another one of those murky areas that tend to freak out DMs. However, figuring out how to give your mount levels of Drunken Master sounds just too insanely awesome that it must be attemped... not necessarily with your particular build, though.

I took a closer look at your Stamp into the Sand ability, and... it's still probably a complete waste of a round. Also, the rules are considerably confused on who does what, because the Trample/Overrun rules appear to assume you are spending actions to move/overrun, but it's actually the mount doing all the actions:

1) Your mount spends a move action move into your target's square
2) This provokes an AoO, and your target gets a chance to attack your mount
3) Your mount spends a standard action to initiate the overrun. Because you have the Trample feat, the target doesn't get to choose to get out of the way. Your mount makes the Str+Size check to knock the target down.
4) If the Str+Size check is successful, your mount gets a free sting attack on the target.
5) Your mount may continue moving if it has movement available.

Somewhere in there, if your mount moved more than 5', you can make a single melee attack as a standard action. Most likely, this would occur at the first square where you could attack, or just after the overrun check (to take advantage of the +4 attack bonus vs. prone targets). If you have 7 levels of Ashworm Dragoon and your mount moved more than 5' but less than 30', you can make a full attack per your class ability.

The advantage here is that on an overrun, your mount does not have to move in a straight line. It could burrow up from below, trample, then burrow back down. You would get in one attack, and your mount might get a sting attack if the target is knocked prone.

Combining overrun/trample with charge doesn't work. Overrun requires a standard action, and charging is a full-round action. Ride-By Attack (which is again confused on who is doing the moving) won't work either, it's still a charge and thus still a full-round action.

Hmm... there may be a way to get Trample (Ex) for the ashworm (via Totemist 2 and Share Soulmeld), but it requires 5 levels of Paladin to pick up the "share spells" feature, and your ashworm loses its poison attack.

[Major]

Well I am a Paladin so I already lost the poison.

Paladin 5/Ashworm Dragoon 1 at the moment. I can link to both characters at the moment if need be.

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=312321
http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=312406

So you don't think trample is going to be worth it? Considering almost all my damage is charge based?

[Acanous]

But wait, a Bull Rush can be initiated on a Charge, and gets a +4 circumstance bonus. I always thought Charging as a full-round action could be combined with trample/bull rush/trip or anything else you could do with your attack because of this.

(Even a charge->Grapple seems plausable, as you can use grapple rules to move a target)

[Major]

Well I know you can overrun on a charge cause you get a bonus for it and it says (Normally you can't use a standard action on a charge, but this is an exception) in the rules.

[Acanous]

How I thought it worked was that charging was a special action that gave you a double move and then a standard, with the requisite -2 AC and having to move in a straight line. The standard at the end being the attack, trample, bull rush, etc.

If you can trample AND charge... you get your regular attack as well as the AoO?

[Major]

Charging is a full round action, but there are certain exceptions that let you do things.

[Sylivin]

Nah, a charge is a full round action in where you double move with a single attack at the end. You have to move at least 10' in a straight line and attack the nearest square to the enemy. Certain feats let you modify this somewhat but that's the essential action.

[Darrin]

But wait, a Bull Rush can be initiated on a Charge, and gets a +4 circumstance bonus. I always thought Charging as a full-round action could be combined with trample/bull rush/trip or anything else you could do with your attack because of this.


Charging is a full-round action, at the end of which you may make a single melee attack or attempt a bull rush. Your single attack can also be a "special attack" such as a trip, disarm, sunder, or grapple, which can nearly always be exchanged for any other attack (including AoOs).

Overrun is a completely different ball of wax, and it requires a move action followed by a standard action. It can't be combined with a charge. The Trample feat is essentially "Improved Overrun" for someone riding a horse, only your horse gets a free hoof attack if you knock your target prone. Because a standard action can't be combined with a full-round action, the two actions are incompatible.

Trample (Ex) is something else entirely (and infinitely cooler than the Trample feat), but it's also a full-round action, and thus can't be combined with a charge.


Well I know you can overrun on a charge cause you get a bonus for it and it says (Normally you can't use a standard action on a charge, but this is an exception) in the rules.

Nope. This is part of the changes they made to charging in the 3.5 update. You used to be able to overrun as part of a charge in 3.0, but in 3.5, *any* creature (including allies) blocking the path to your target prevents you from charging. The conditions that would allow you to use overrun (i.e., a creature between you and your target) actually prevent you from initiating the charge to begin with.

However, per the Rules Compendium, you *can* tumble through or jump over obstacles during a charge. But it's not entirely clear what they mean by obstacles (i.e., does that include creatures?):



If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, is difficult terrain, or contains a creature (not a helpless one), you can’t charge.

You can make a long jump to avoid an obstacle as part of a charge, as long as you continue to meet all other criteria for making a charge before, during, and after the jump.

You can tumble during a charge, as long as you continue to meet all other criteria for making a charge before, during, and after tumbling.

[Major]

Overrun is a completely different ball of wax, and it requires a move action followed by a standard action. It can't be combined with a charge. The Trample feat is essentially "Improved Overrun" for someone riding a horse, only your horse gets a free hoof attack if you knock your target prone. Because a standard action can't be combined with a full-round action, the two actions are incompatible.



It's cool that you think that...but you're wrong. As quoted from the Player's Handbook on page 157.

I'll bold the important part.


OVERRUN
You can attempt an overrun as a standard action taken during your
move, or as part of a charge. (In general, you cannot take a standard
action during a move; this is an exception.)

Hell further down it even says you get a +2 to the strength check if you charged.


Step 3: Opponent Blocks? If your opponent blocks you, make a
Strength check opposed by the defender’s Dexterity or Strength
check (whichever ability score has the higher modifier). A
combatant gets a +4 bonus on the check for every size category he is
larger than Medium or a –4 penalty for every size category he is
smaller than Medium. You gain a +2 bonus on your Strength check
if you made the overrun as part of a charge.

So unless you are saying that you are right and the Player's Handbook is wrong...

[dextercorvia]

It's cool that you think that...but you're wrong. As quoted from the Player's Handbook on page 157.

I'll bold the important part.



Hell further down it even says you get a +2 to the strength check if you charged.



So unless you are saying that you are right and the Player's Handbook is wrong...


It was errata'd


Player's Handbook, page 157
It’s not possible to overrun as part of a charge.
Delete “or as part of a charge” from the first sentence of
the first paragraph.
In the “Step 3” paragraph, delete the sentence that refers
to making the overrun as part of a charge.

[Major]

That's a bitch =_=

So much for overrun and trample being useful...

I can understand some erratas, but seriously, what the hell?