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Cieyrin
2011-07-12, 01:16 PM
Hello Playground,

I've been considering once again running a game, this time an E6 Shifter tribes type game (what Shifter tribes means other than everybody is a Shifter, I can't quite be sure of just yet). In anticipation of this, I'm looking into practically anything and everything that shifters can make use of and good ways of making Shifters that don't suck (the reason I'm going E6 is, since E6 emphasizes feat acquisition, that may help with making them more viable than normal D&D and feat starvation).

I'm trying to look at any and every source of material, though published material before homebrew. This means, yes, Dragon is on the table here.

I've already hit Eberron Campaign Setting and a large chunk of the Eberron material (Player's Guide, Races, Magic, Five Nations, Forge of War, Secrets of Sarlona, Explorer's Handbook, Sharn), Tome of Battle, Complete Warrior and MM3, as well as Dragon 355's Way of the Shackled Beast. Anything I've missed that's relevant (I include Complete Warrior for Warshaper shenanigans, so it doesn't need to say Shifter on the can)? And it doesn't need to fit into E6 limits, either, since I'll be devising E6 Prestige feats for things like Bear Warrior and Moonspeaker.

Any random constructive comments would also be appreciated on Shifter character building. When I get things in a presentable fashion, I may make a mini-guide for people's viewing pleasure. :smallbiggrin:

Thanks for any help! :smallsmile:

Dusk Eclipse
2011-07-12, 02:06 PM
one) I want to play in that game.

two) The problem is that I don't recall seeing any other shifter related stuff in other books. Perhaps homebrew? I also recall hearing about Dinosaur-like shifters in some Dragon Magazine but I don't remember which one.

Cieyrin
2011-07-12, 02:22 PM
As I said, homebrew would be after published material but I'd be open to considering it. Things like the Shifter Exemplar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=113692), not so much a Shifter racial rewrite. I also vaguely recall the saurian shifters, though I'm not sure how well they'd fit in. I'm thinking I'll be setting this campaign in the Shifter homeland in Sarlona pre-Dreaming Darkness, so maybe they'd fit in. If I could get a Dragon Mag # on that, that'd be awesome.

Speaking of alternate shifters, Secrets of Sarlona introduced a new shifter trait, Winterhide. It didn't come with feat support, so I'm wondering what kind of feat Winterhide Elite should be. Thoughts on that and others, as always, are appreciated.

Dusk Eclipse
2011-07-12, 02:30 PM
Perhaps an increased cold resistance (15 or 20?) or maybe going for full immunity?

WinWin
2011-07-12, 02:35 PM
Current game I am running has a Feral Shifter Druid.

Nasty. Intelligence is tanked, but otherwise fairly effective. Using Dreamsight Shifter, with Shifter Druid sub levels 1 and 4. The level 5 sub level not taken as it would trade out Wild Shape.

Beast Spirit is a fair trade for animal companion. A floating bonus to attributes that can be transferred to summons is a fair ability. Also, the beast spirit provides it's untyped bonus even when in an alternate form.

Reckless nature buffs a poor save and initiative at the expense of a strong save. Strong advantages, especially since Beast Spirit allows a reroll if a will save is failed (1 round later for ongoing effects).

Shifter Multiattack is a decent feat for Druids, as it counts as a shifter feat. Active benefits even while not shifting. Plus it is a decent feat for wild shaping druids.

Dreamsight is a decent ability. Speak with animals synergises nicely with summons and the bonus to Wild Empathy received. +2 wisdom is great for a caster. Becomes a permenant bonus when Moonspeaker levels are taken. The Dreamsight Elite feat also provides See Invisibility, which is a great buff (though requires activation).

Shifter Braids are decent items. More expensive than potions, but they provide some decent buffs while shifting. Again, these items syngergise fairly well with Wild Shape. Silver and Spellstrike are both fairly useful, with spellstrike of particular importance to druids. Dire Shifting is not useful for animal forms or monsterous humanoids, but may be decent for other characters. Dream Path braids are very situational...Duration is too short for any real tactical benefit. Very handy against critters like Thought Eaters or Ghosts though (and they synergise with Dreamsight Elite).

Spells? Overall decent due to swift casting times (except aspect of the werebeast).

Shifter Prowess is useful for dealing with terrain in certain encounters, great if your skills are low, better if you're a skill monkey.

Extend Shifting is decent at low level, but the 10 minute fatigue afterwards can be an issue.

Enhanced Shifting is underpowered for level 3, but the benefits depend largely on the type of shifter the character is. Sometimes an extra +2 to an attribute and extra shifting duration is worth it for a Dreamsight Shifter...At the very least it can be traded out for a Summon Natures Ally by a druid.

Aspect of the Werebeast...Awesome. Simply having this spell prepared extends shifting duration. Provides some combat benefits depending on what werebeast aspect is chosing. Great synergy with natural attacks and Wild Shape. The spell does not stack with itself though. Adding grab, trip or pounce (rake) to natural attacks is a very meaningful buff for a combat druid.

Everything I have covered is from Races of Eberron and Druid specific.

edit:misspelled shift & tripped censor.

Cieyrin
2011-07-12, 03:01 PM
That's a nice bit of analysis there, WinWin. I'd been thinking a bit about the viability of Feral Shifters as an option as well.

The bit of analysis that's been bugging my these past few days is with Bloodcaster Master and its unique interaction with Shifters. It says you're treated as having Razorclaw for prereqs but do you get claws if you don't have them? I think you should but I'm not sure, as it seems you get a replaced benefit. If I use it (I was planning to) I'll houserule it so you claws if you don't but a second opinion would be lovely.

Graytemplar
2011-07-12, 03:07 PM
u might like the primeval class from frostburn, a primeval would be a combat-focused character with huge benefits to physical attributes at the expense of losing INT and CHA,
Primevals are like shifters, but they draw upon much older ancestors than bears and wolves. getting abilities and enhancements from dinosaurs, dire animals, and other great beasties

the best part is the way the ability boosts work u subtract 10 and add the physical attributes of the creature to ur character!
say ur character has 18 STR, and he chooses to link with a Dire Bear (STR 31) this means, when he shifts, he has 39 STR!!!!

Granted the penalties to INT and CHA draw away from the appeal of this class, but i still think its worth a look

EDIT attribute changes only apply in animal form, i probably failed to mention that, but it still makes a great "brute" archetype for your setting

Cieyrin
2011-07-12, 03:10 PM
I'm familiar with the Primeval. It could work nicely as an alternative to Bear Warrior when making those prestige feats. Thanks for the reminder of its existence, though! :smallbiggrin:

WinWin
2011-07-12, 04:13 PM
The bit of analysis that's been bugging my these past few days is with Bloodcaster Master and its unique interaction with Shifters. It says you're treated as having Razorclaw for prereqs but do you get claws if you don't have them? I think you should but I'm not sure, as it seems you get a replaced benefit. If I use it (I was planning to) I'll houserule it so you claws if you don't but a second opinion would be lovely.

I never paid much attention to that sidebar on page 97 before. Good find.

As bloodclaw master provides claws with it's shifting ability (same as Razorclaw) and the same sidebar references how Shifters benefit from the class, I don't think it needs any major modification.

The character is treated as having the razorclaw trait for feat prerequisites. Racial Shifting and Bloodclaw Shifting are merged into the same ability, with Bloodclaw levels providing extra uses and duration of the racial ability (in addition to other Shifter options to extend duration and uses). The claws and strength bonus are provided by the 1st level Bloodclaw ability.

The only benefit to actually granting the Razorclaw trait (as opposed to emulating it), would be the extra claw damage per 4 levels. That is only a +1 in an E6 game, a +5 maximum otherwise. Hardly game breaking. I would probably houserule it as well.

Cieyrin
2011-07-12, 06:07 PM
I never paid much attention to that sidebar on page 97 before. Good find.

As bloodclaw master provides claws with it's shifting ability (same as Razorclaw) and the same sidebar references how Shifters benefit from the class, I don't think it needs any major modification.

The character is treated as having the razorclaw trait for feat prerequisites. Racial Shifting and Bloodclaw Shifting are merged into the same ability, with Bloodclaw levels providing extra uses and duration of the racial ability (in addition to other Shifter options to extend duration and uses). The claws and strength bonus are provided by the 1st level Bloodclaw ability.

The only benefit to actually granting the Razorclaw trait (as opposed to emulating it), would be the extra claw damage per 4 levels. That is only a +1 in an E6 game, a +5 maximum otherwise. Hardly game breaking. I would probably houserule it as well.

What I'm thinking about it is that it's essentially a free Extra Shifter Trait, so non-druids can have 3 traits, as long as they're fine with Razorclaw. Druids can get a 4th, though whether it's worthwhile is something else entirely.

In any case, it's good to see I have someone else that came to same conclusion I did. It's...just not the best worded sidebar, tis all.

Cieyrin
2011-07-14, 09:44 AM
So no other thoughts on Shifter-friendly material or should I actually draft up the guide to get my creative juices flowing for the campaign I should hopefully be able to run sometime soon?

Dusk Eclipse
2011-07-14, 09:56 AM
I found the Saurial Shifter issue, apparently they are in Dragon 328

Person_Man
2011-07-14, 11:17 AM
I have an old homebrew PrC known as the Shapethief which would be thematically appropriate. It's probably useless to your characters because it's E6. But you might want to include it for your BBEG/antagonists, as the Shapethief's abilities are all about screwing over Lycanthropes, Shifters, and people who use Wild Shape, Polymorph, etc.


The Shapethief

Requirements: Ability to Steal Spell Effect and Steal Spell-Like Ability (ie, Spellthief (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050107a) 5)

Hit Die: d8

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The Shapethief does not gain any additional weapon or armor proficiencies.

Skill Points at Each Level: 6 + Int modfier

Class Skills: Bluff (Cha), Craft (Int), Disable Device (Int), Escape Artist (Dex), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (dungeoneering) (Int), Knowledge (local) (Int), Knowledge (nature) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Open Lock (Dex), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), Survival (Wis), Tumble (Dex), and Use Magic Device (Cha).

{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|+1|+0|+0|+2| Spellthief Ability, Shapechanger’s Bane (Shapechanger)

2nd|+2|+0|+0|+3| Smell of Deception

3rd|+3|+1|+1|+3| Reveal True Form

4th|+4|+1|+1|+4| Shapechanger’s Bane (Alternate Form)

5th|+5|+1|+1|+4| Silvered Attacks

6th|+6|+2|+2|+5| Steal Form

7th|+7|+2|+2|+5| Shapechanger’s Bane (Wildshape)

8th|+8|+2|+2|+6| True Self

9th|+9|+3|+3|+6| True Seeing

10th|+10|+3|+3|+7| Shapechanger’s Bane (Transmutation), Become What You Most Hate
[/table]

Class Features:

Spellthief Ability: Your Shapethief levels stack with your Spellthief levels for determining your Steal spell, Steal Spell Effect, Steal Spell-Like Ability, and Discover Spells class abilities. (Which the Shapethief gains when his effective Steal Spell ability reaches 13th level).

Your Shapethief levels do not stack with your Spellthief levels to determine any other class ability, such spellcasting, Absorb Spell, Arcane Sight, Sneak Attack, or Steal Spell Resistance.

Shapechanger’s Bane (Ex): You gain a +1d6 bonus damage for each Shapethief class level you possess against all enemies with the Shapechanger type or subtype. (Max 10d6 at 10th level).

At 4th level, your Shapechanger’s Bane also applies to anyone with an Alternate Form from a racial, template, or class ability.

At 7th level, your Shapechanger’s Bane also applies to anyone with the Wildshape ability (or any similar ability provided by an alternate class feature or prestige class that requires or replaces Wildshape).

At 10th level, your Shapechanger’s Bane also applies to anyone who is willingly under the effect of a Transmutation spell or effect (including psionics and magic items which duplicate Transmutation effects). This does not apply to individuals who are unwillingly the subject of such effects (such as if you cast Reduce Person on them), nor does it effect individuals who are carrying equipment under a Transmutation effect (such as Magic Weapon).

Smell of Deception (Ex): You gain the Scent Ability. If you already posses or later gain the Scent ability from another source, it's range of effect is doubled. In addition to its normal properties (the ability to recognize people by scent, Track by scent, locate someone’s position by scent, etc), you may automatically determine the true type and subtype of anyone within your Scent’s range, regardless of their current form.

You also gain bonus a to all Sense Motive checks equal to your Shapethief class level.

Reveal True Form (Su): Once per round as a Free Action when you successfully damage a creature with your Shapechanger’s Bane ability, that creature must make a Will Save (DC = 10 + Shapethief class level + your Cha modifier) or revert back to their true form. They also lose the benefits of any abilities or effects related to changing form, such as Shifter's Traits, a Changeling's Disguise Self ability, a Doppleganer's Change Shape ability, etc. They may not change from their true form or use any abilities related to changing form for a number of rounds equal to your Shapethief class level.

The duration of multiple uses of the Reveal True Form ability on the same enemy overlap - each time you use this ability on a creature, the duration is essentially reset.

Silvered Attacks (Ex): Any weapon that you wield (including natural weapons and ranged weapons) count as being alchemical silver and magical for the purpose of overcoming Damage Reduction. You also ignore the damage reduction, Energy Resistance, and Spell Resistance of any creature that your Shapechanger’s Bane ability applies to. This includes all all of your attacks, class abilities, spells that you may cast, magic items that you use against them, etc.

Steal Form (Su): When you use your Reveal True Form ability, you may forgo 3d6 points of bonus damage from your Shapechanger’s Bane class ability in an attempt to steal their form. If your enemy fails their Reveal True Form Will Save, they still suffer the normal effects of Reveal True Form and you may take the form (and any benefits directly related to changing form, such as Shifter Traits) that they were currently holding as an Immediate Action.

You are limited to taking forms with hit dice equal to or less then your character level. While in this form, you follow the standard Alternate Form rules for your attributes, abilities, and all other effects. You may maintain this new form for a number of rounds equal to your Shapethief level, or until you choose to dismiss it as a Free Action.

If an ally who is subject to your Shapechanger’s Bane is willing, you may use Steal Form to take their form with a touch as a Standard Action without dealing damage. They otherwise suffer the effects of Reveal True form while you are using your Steal Form ability - they are locked into their true form until for the duration of your Steal Form ability ends.

True Self (Su): You are now immune to the Curse of Lycanthropy, and any other effect that would change your type or subtype against your will. In addition, you gain your Charisma bonus as a bonus to Saves against all Transmutation effects. This bonus stacks with bonuses from other sources, such as Divine Grace or Spellgrace.

True Seeing (Su): You gain the ability to use True Seeing continuously.

Become What You Most Hate (Su): If you kill a creature using your Shapechanger’s Bane ability and successfully use your Steal Form ability against it, you may incorporate the stolen form into your very being. You gain the stolen form as a permanent Alternate Form. You may change into this form as a Standard Action whenever you wish, and dismiss it as a free action. You may only permanently steal Alternate Forms with this ability, and not Wild Shape forms, spell effects, etc.

You may store a total number of Alternate Forms equal to your Charisma bonus. You may replace an existing Alternate Form with a new one if you wish, although the maximum number held may never be higher then your Charisma Bonus. If your Charisma is ever damaged or otherwise reduced, you lose the most recently gained Alternate Form(s) until the number of forms known reflects your new Charisma bonus. If you are ever killed you lose all of your stored Alternate Forms, even if you are later resurrected or reincarnated.

You may maintain any combination of your Alternate Forms for up to 10 + your Charisma bonus minutes each day (including the time taken to change forms), which you may split up throughout the day however you wish. This is in addition to any time you spend in a newly stolen form using the Steal Form ability.

You also gain the Shapechanger subtype.

Cieyrin
2011-07-14, 11:57 AM
I found the Saurial Shifter issue, apparently they are in Dragon 328

Hmm, the only difference I'm seeing between regular and Saurian is that Saurians have the reptilian subtype alongside shapechanger and a slightly different set of traits. Broadwing is kinda lame next to the shifter counterpart, Junglerunner and Raptorleap have some unique utility and Widetail is interesting as the only shifter trait that grants a natural attack but doesn't grant a Strength bonus, instead granting Con. Maybe I'll just yoink the new traits, make Elite shifter feats for 'em and merge the two into one race, as lycans come from all animal types, prehistoric or otherwise. Saurian traits are probably just less common, an estranged part of the shifter racial heritage.

EDIT: Shapethief seems a bit on the strong side for my tastes, though I do see the implications of having someone with levels as an antagonist. I just think 10d6 over ten levels, especially if you multiply your attacks, is just gonna murdalize anything and anyone, especially since it's not precision damage. I mean, by 10th level, who won't have a Transmutation running on them? Permanent True Seeing and the capstone, which rubs me as very Illithid Savant, just take the cake. If the bonus damage was scaled back to 5d6, the True Seeing to a times/day and...I have no idea what to do about that capstone.