Feats at odd levels--your thoughts

[ShriekingDrake]

In one of my games, we've been playing that all characters, monsters, and NPCs get feats at odd levels. Classes or other mechanics that give bonus feats continue to grant them. So far, it's been pretty fun. It's allowed characters to be a bit more varied and it has really improved the monsters. I was wondering if anyone else has tried this who may have impressions to share or if others have theoretical observations.

(We allow all WoTC produces and have a set of house rules to adjust for endless loops and the like and other especially cheesy stuff).

[AppleChips]

It just seems to me that more feats equals more cheesiness, but if you have a way to successfully counter that, sounds like good fun. The more possibilities, the better I say.

[The-Mage-King]

Well, Pathfinder (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/) uses that system for feats. It does provide a bit more flexibility in builds.

[BillyBobJoe]

Pathfinder did this exact same thing and I love Pathfinder.

[The-Mage-King]

Pathfinder did this exact same thing and I love Pathfinder.

You done been swordsage'd.

[Larpus]

Pathfinder did this exact same thing and I love Pathfinder.
Indeed, so far this hasn't been anything but good on my group, everyone gets more diversity in the long run and some needed power in the lesser levels where everyone sucks and a house rat can actually kill you.

[Coidzor]

In one of my games, we've been playing that all characters, monsters, and NPCs get feats at odd levels. Classes or other mechanics that give bonus feats continue to grant them. So far, it's been pretty fun. It's allowed characters to be a bit more varied and it has really improved the monsters. I was wondering if anyone else has tried this who may have impressions to share or if others have theoretical observations.

Main thing that I know of is that you'll need to at least consider changing up some of the requirements because there's a lot of feats designed to be taken at 6th level, for example. Mostly this just makes feat-starved characters slightly less feat starved though.

Bards will still want more feats than they're getting unless they're humans with flaws, then they might be satisfied with this way of things, can't really think of any other characters who are as feat-starved as a bard build though. Certain gishing schemes are a bit easier to pull off as well, I believe.

[Anderlith]

Kind of kicks a fighter in the codpiece doesn't it? Unless you play with a pathfinder fighter

[Drolyt]

In one of my games, we've been playing that all characters, monsters, and NPCs get feats at odd levels. Classes or other mechanics that give bonus feats continue to grant them. So far, it's been pretty fun. It's allowed characters to be a bit more varied and it has really improved the monsters. I was wondering if anyone else has tried this who may have impressions to share or if others have theoretical observations.

(We allow all WoTC produces and have a set of house rules to adjust for endless loops and the like and other especially cheesy stuff).
I like this, it allows a lot more flexibility. It does allow for more cheese, but even purely flavor builds often feel feat starved, and it lets builds with feat taxes add some more flavorful and less optimal feats without feeling cheated. Only issue (that isn't much of one) I see is that for most classes it makes odd levels universally stronger than even, since spellcasters, manifesters, and initiators all gain access to stronger powers on odd numbered levels. If this were part of a larger homebrew system, you would probably want to shift most class abilities to even numbered levels so you get something good every level (or, if you want to keep it so spellcasters and the like get new abilities on odd levels, change feats to first level, second level, and every odd numbered level thereafter).

Main thing that I know of is that you'll need to at least consider changing up some of the requirements because there's a lot of feats designed to be taken at 6th level, for example.
Actually, there's another reason to make it 1st, 2nd, and every even numbered level instead. Although that does mess with fighters.

[tonberrian]

Kind of kicks a fighter in the codpiece doesn't it? Unless you play with a pathfinder fighter

Huh? Fighter gets all kinds of nifty stances and counters and boosts and strikes. Why would getting more feats step on his toes?[/denial]

[Erik von Nein]

Sounds fine, though I might make metamagic feats/power attack trees (shock trooper, et al)/other silly combos cost two feat slots in that case, or just allow them every other feat gain. I've thought about handing first level feats out like candy before, granting an extra four or five, but disallowing those for metamagic or other feats.

Honestly, I've always felt there weren't enough feats going around. There's billions of the things but only so many feats slots? Bah! "Bah!", I say.

[TroubleBrewing]

Huh? Fighter gets all kinds of nifty stances and counters and boosts and strikes. Why would getting more feats step on his toes?[/denial]

Genius. Ten character minimum.

[Coidzor]

Actually, there's another reason to make it 1st, 2nd, and every even numbered level instead. Although that does mess with fighters.

That's Fighters at that. E6 and more feats for everyone just makes their lack of class features become more visibly highlighted, doesn't actually create an issue. Though Dungeoncrashers would still appreciate the feat progression anyway.

[KillianHawkeye]

One of my DMs does this, but I haven't really noticed much difference as we're still only level 5 in that game.

[Coidzor]

One of my DMs does this, but I haven't really noticed much difference as we're still only level 5 in that game.

You don't really notice much difference until level 7, where you end up with the same number of feats you'd have if you were level 9 the other way, or level 9 where you're one feat ahead.

And by level 13 you'd have as many feats as a level 18 character the other way.

Giving 1 at 1st level and then one at every even level actually gives 11 feats at 20th as opposed to 10 feats at 19th as opposed to 7 feats at 18th.

The differences are mostly subtle, but it helps a bit I imagine.

Though I must admit that even with that kind of feat progression change, I'm still kind of considering feats as a form of nonstandard treasure as well as borrowing from the ideas I've seen of using XP to purchase additional feats.

[Candleke]

This is the way we always play in my group (except for one game where we got feats every level, that was interesting....) and we have never had any problems with cheesing or over powered characters, and if it comes up slap some class levels on those mobs or some racial template with bonus HD.

For the cheesers give em the stink eye, they know what their doing and while it may be fun for them it is screwing up the game for the rest of the party.

[ShriekingDrake]

Kind of kicks a fighter in the codpiece doesn't it? Unless you play with a pathfinder fighter

Actually, the fighters have ended up with 21 feats, which is nothing to sneeze at.

Thanks all for the helpful commentary.

[NecroRick]

Main thing that I know of is that you'll need to at least consider changing up some of the requirements because there's a lot of feats designed to be taken at 6th level, for example.

There's also a bunch that can be taken at 5th level, which under the existing system is tantamount to Wizards going "nyah nyah nayh" at anybody that doesn't take bizarre class combos to get extra feats.

Odd levels is interesting, because anything with a requirement of BAB 4 which would have been available at 6 with 3/4 BAB progression now can't be taken until 7th level, whereas the full BAB classes pick it up a level earlier.

[edit->I see this point has already been covered, apologies]
I wonder also whether feats on odd levels makes fighters more or less attractive? On the plus side, now you get a feat every level, on the minus side the feats were your 'advantage' and now that everyone gets more feats it closes the gap and thus makes you "less special".

[Saintheart]

It works well, especially at lower levels. Possibly ultracheese options get more likely at earlier stages, but from my personal experience in a level 6-9 campaign (so far) the only one who's putting out uber effectiveness is the party bard, who's optimised Inspire Courage to +5, has Snowflake Wardance, and is looking forward to Words of Creation at level 10.

[Coidzor]

I wonder also whether feats on odd levels makes fighters more or less attractive? On the plus side, now you get a feat every level, on the minus side the feats were your 'advantage' and now that everyone gets more feats it closes the gap and thus makes you "less special".

I guess they could be lockdown and ubercharging? :smallconfused:



Hmm....Wildshaping Mystic Rangers would like this a lot though, since Sword of the Arcane Order they could take at 5th and then Natural Spell at 7th so that the two feats don't both compete for the same 6th level feat slot. :smallbiggrin:

[Dsurion]

Firechanter had a thread about this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=197678) a while ago. I stand by what I said in that thread.